Living/working in Johannesburg - any good?

[remoak]

Hi folks,

Looking at a possible contract on the 146 with Airlink, whilst they train up locals.

Any comments on living and working in Jo'burg, what Airlink are like, etc? Chances of getting out alive...??? :}:}\

Cheers!

[Rotates Lowly]

You'll live, but get a spot close to the airport. The traffic's a nightmare.

[Flame Lily FX]

remoak - You will need to invest in an AK47 (to put by your bed) and a Glock (to wear going around Joburg). Sign up with your nearest rifle range for shooting lessons because you don't want to miss your target when held up in a probable armed ambush;). Don't forget to employ armed security guards at your home as well as install electrified fencing and get about 4 killer Dobermans/Rotties/Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

Enjoy life in Gangsta's Paradise aka Gauteng!:)

Stay safe and alive:ok:.

[remoak]

Hmmm... well I always wanted an AK47, but not so keen on shooting folk with it!

As with most contracts, I imagine that I would be living in an airport hotel, so most of the security issues will hopefully not apply.

Very illuminating though, and thanks for your responses. I started reading that thread about why South Africans are negative, but by the time I got to page three I was becoming depressed...

On the other hand, what is the flying like?

[fluffyfan]

remoak - You will need to invest in an AK47 (to put by your bed) and a Glock (to wear going around Joburg). Sign up with your nearest rifle range for shooting lessons because you don't want to miss your target when held up in a probable armed ambush. Don't forget to employ armed security guards at your home as well as install electrified fencing and get about 4 killer Dobermans/Rotties/Rhodesian Ridgebacks.

Enjoy life in Gangsta's Paradise aka Gauteng!

Stay safe and alive.

What a load of :mad:

remoak you asked
On the other hand, what is the flying like

Ans : 1st world.

Its very close to life in Australia, except we have a crime problem and our females are far prettier, we also play better rugby;)

Flame Lily FX I have always said that the most pesimistic people you will ever find are ex-Zimbos, and once again you have proved it true.........:mad: hole try tell the truth not what you think is the truth.

[Frogman1484]

Its very close to life in Australia,... Mate you must be high on something to say that it is like life in Australia...very far from it!!! I cannot recall when my neighbors car was high jacked or when my friend from the air force was shot dead while walking in a shopping center parking lot. I dare you to go for a walk in your suburb after dark and not feel that your life is threatened. When was the last time a 6 month old baby was raped in Australia. Ask any of your Australian connections if they know anyone that has been shot and they will not be able to recall a name, then ask one of your South African buddies....:mad: :ugh:

[beechbum]

Remoak,
The fellas are trying to put the fear of God into you, Sure SA has it's problems with reference to the crime issue and it's something you have to be aware of but it ain't the wild west with people shooting each other under your own nose every minute of the day. As long as you are aware of the situation you will be fine!
As for the flying it's great, as Fluffy put it. Don't know where you wil be going in the 146 but it will be a great expereince nevertheless. SA has a lot to offer and as you get to see a bit of the place, you'll realise what a beautiful spot it really is! Obviuosly Airlink have given you some sort of idea in the contract, otherwise if you can pose some questions to them, I'm sure you'll get an unbiased opinion.
Unfortunately the talk in the street and on everyones lips is the present crime situation so it will be thrown at you ad nauseam on these forums!!!
If you want any further questions answered then drop me a PM and I'll try and help. Good luck with your decision! :ok:

[Auscoaster]

The only resemblance South Africa has to Australia is the weather and the long brown grass! More than that you cannot compare.

South Africa may be a beautiful country and there are alot of pro's as to why you would want to live here but, sometimes you just have to get real about the crime. Even government are joining in....

[fluffyfan]

Flame Lily FX here is my problem, the picture you portay to Remoak is totally inaccuarate, and quite frankly I have had enough of these blatantly inaccurate statements, you know as well as I do that SA is not like that.
remoak - You will need to invest in an AK47 (to put by your bed) and a Glock (to wear going around Joburg). Sign up with your nearest rifle range for shooting lessons because you don't want to miss your target when held up in a probable armed ambush. Don't forget to employ armed security guards at your home as well as install electrified fencing and get about 4 killer Dobermans/Rotties/Rhodesian Ridgebacks.
Remoak is asking an honest question about what its like, and its not fair on this country to portray it like that, yes we have a crime problem in SA but just watch a rugby match and you will see 80 000 South Africans at the stadium sitting in the sun having fun just like every other Super 14 country, not toting AK47's and killing eachother, you will also find people on the beaches, at the lakes and rivers fishing, boating, many people at eachothers houses and in parks having braai's, at restraunts and pubs, people hiking mountain trails, riding motorcyles, flying private aircraft, walking the streets shopping, why do you think SA is such a popular tourist destination? It would piss many Australians off if I only looked at the problems the Aboriginal people are having and then painted a picture that that is what the whole country is like..........just be fair thats all, ask your self what is reasonable and dont believe everything you read on Pprune.
As for the reference to Ex-Zimbo, my mistake but your call sign Flame Lily FX is quite misleading if you have any Idea of the relevance of the Flame Lilly to Rhodesians.
At least non of you challenged my quote our females are far prettier, we also play better rugby..........;) says lots

[Frogman1484]

Beachbum, you are correct, If it is for a contract I would also do it. Be careful where you go and what you do...common sense mate.
When it all gets too much you are free to go to your next job and country. A lot of the people are frustrated because they are trapped or have done nothing to give them selves another option for a rainy day...but you are a free to remove yourself from the political and social problems...enjoy :ok: :ok:


But please do not think that life there is normal relating it to the rest of the civilized world...it is not. I would say that you can only compare it to another African country...

[remoak]

Interesting.

Thanks, everyone, for your different perspectives, it makes interesting reading.

I live in NZ, and my life is pretty idyllic. Virtually no crime around here, the kids wander around the neighbourhood in comparative safety. I have a nice beach within 200 metres of my front door, and the capital city is just 45 minutes away. My security system consists of the neighbours psychotic labrador. No robberies round here in living memory, and no break-ins where I live in the last five years at least. I often forget to lock my car, but I never worry about losing it. Different, huh?

However... if I was to move to South Auckland (north of the North Island, and home to most of the Polynesians), I would expect to be burgled. I certainly wouldn't walk the streets at night, I would keep the kids on a very short leash indeed, and I would lock my car in a secure garage. So, even a relative paradise has it's problems.

It sounds like contract work would be OK, no need to go to places where the trouble is, no need to drive or really do anything other than turn up to the airport and fly. Having said that, nobody likes living with the feeling that they are under siege.

We get a large number of (white) South Africans emigrating to NZ, and the stories they tell are compelling, but their perspective tends to be similar across large numbers of them.

I've never been to Africa, and would like to spend some time there... I suppose it is simply a matter of assessing risk vs reward. The reward is pretty grim by Euro standards, and I'm not sure what Airlink is like as an airline... but maybe the experience is worth the lack of money. Besides, it would be fun to play around with all those firearms.

I'd have to say that I have seen some gorgeous South African women, but the Springboks... nah, sorry, the All Blacks are in a different league. We only let you win that game last year because we were tired, and we felt sorry for you... :}:}:}

[fluffyfan]

remoak, if its your first time to Africa I am sure you will love it, try to do some of the tourist things, Cape Town, Kruger Park its an opportunity you cant miss, as for the flying as I said its 1st world, radar control everywhere, ILS most places CAT2,3 in JHB and Cape Town (although according to Notams they are working on the systems and are downgraded to Cat 1 at present, the airlines here fly mainly 737-200/300/400/500/800, MD82, DC9, Dash 8, CRJ, 747-400, Airbus A319/A340, Airlink use the Jetsteam 41 and the Embrayer 135 (I think). But you may see fellow 146 pilots from Air Botswana.

You must go to a pub called High Flyers, near the airport, dont miss that one. And I highly doubt you will see any firearms, JHB is like any major city in the world, ie New York, London etc there are places you should avoid.

I will listen for a Kiwi voice on the radio, should be fun when the All Blacks and Springboks play again.

[birdlady]

Remoak,

Apart from the crime its a wonderfull place to live. Sunny weather, great shopping, great restaurants, lots to do on weekends and if your an outdoorsy type of person you couldnt be in a better place. :ok: The flying is some of the best in the world. :ok:

Maybe you should come out for a holiday and check the place out before making a decision. ;)

[cargodoor]

Does the 146 flying have anything to do with Airlink dealing with Air Bots? You could find yourself up in Maun at some stage with all your fellow Kiwis!!

:ok:

As for living in JHB, its what you make of it. I love it, obviously just be careful and vigilant.

[George Tower]

Having been in SA for about 10 years but never having had much cause to visit JNB I have recently spent time there. I have been conditioned by Capetonians to believe that Jo'burg is hellish place to live etc etc....but to be honest the vibe I felt wasn't amnything like the picture of armegeddon that is perpetuated. Sure for me Cape Town is still tops as a place to live but there is a vibrancy about Jo'burg, people want to do business etc etc. Security is an issue......the first thing I noticed is that on average walls to properties are about double the height of those in Cape Town.

Moving on the Link question: the acquisition of the 146 has been rumoured for a long time......but does anyone know the routes link plan on using these aircraft? Yet another aircraft type for a small carrier?

[remoak]

There are Kiwis in Maun? Where is Maun, anyway? :confused:

Also, what is the climate like... not in Johannesburg, I have figured that out, but in the likely destinations for a 146?

Once again, thanks everyone for your comments. It is starting to sound like a worthwhile adventure. Beats the heck out of working in the cold and dismal UK!

[George Tower]

Maun is quite far north in Botswana and gateway to the Okavango Delta.

Climate.....hot and humid

Though the Air Botswana 146 serves Maun from JNB and CPT I don't think they'd be basing crew there.

Anyone have any clue as to whether the Link stake in Air Botswana has been approved yet? Haven't AB been trying to privatise for about 7 years now? Things move slowly it seems:zzz:

[cargodoor]

Maun is hot and dusty!! There are lots of Kiwis up there and Air bots services a Cape Town - Maun route. I heard that it is being withdrawn from the end of March. Yuo won't be based in maun but you certainly will hear your fellow countrymen on the radio. :ok: :ok:

[BOK2GO]

fluffyfan, our girls are prettier but we don't play better rugby, unfortunately.

[remoak]

Does anyone have any idea on what routes the 146 will fly for Airlink?

And what are all those Kiwis up to in Maun? Does it involve a sheep? :}:}:}

[fluffyfan]

Frogman1484 your quote
But please do not think that life there is normal relating it to the rest of the civilized world...it is not. I would say that you can only compare it to another African country...

I dont know if you have been to the other African countries, I have, many of them on contract. SA has a major crime problem, however I dont think you can equate SA to any other African countries, thats almost like equating Aus to Tonga or Indonesia, just to illustrate, some facts about SA you may not be aware of (its not a pissing contest, just to illustrate that SA is a little more advanced than you seem to think)

A comparison of Countries by GDP and real Growth rate

Australia GDP640.1 billion Growth rate 2.5%
South Africa GDP533.2 billion Growth rate 4.9%
New Zealand GDP101.8 billion Growth rate 2.2%

South Africa had nuclear weapons in the 60's (developed with its ally Israel) not just the bomb but intercontinental ballistic missiles, it designed and manufactured the Rooivalk attack helicopter, its the world leader in pebble bed nuclear reactor technology, South Africa had a space programme aimed at launching low earth orbit Satelights (this was given up at the request of the US)

Some South African Inventions

CAT scan
The computed axial tomography scan, or CAT scan, was developed at Tufts University in the UK by South African physicist Allan Cormack and Godfrey Hounsfield of EMI Laboratories. Their achievement secured them the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

Oil from coal
Sasol is the world's first - and largest - oil-from-coal refinery. It is situated in Sasolburg in South Africa and provides 40% of the country's fuel.

Heart transplant
The world's first heart transplant was performed by Dr Chris Barnard in Cape Town on 3 December 1967.

Speed gun
The South African-made speed gun, developed by Somerset West inventor Henri Johnson, was formally launched at The Oval in England during the 1999 Cricket World Cup.

Kreepy Krauly
The swimming pool vacuum cleaner was invented by Ferdinand Chauvier, a hydraulics engineer who came to South Africa from the Belgian Congo in 1951.

APS therapy
Gervan Lubbe was flicking through an American medical journal one day when he stumbled across an article about pain relief. After reading all he could on the topic, he wondered whether it would be possible to electronically stimulate the body's natural nerve impulses to relieve pain.

Pratley Putty
Pratley's famous glue is the only South African invention that has been to the moon. In 1969 the putty was used to hold bits of the Apollo XI mission's Eagle landing craft together.

Dolosse
Dolosse are large, unusually shaped concrete blocks weighing up to 20 tons. The structures are designed to break up wave action and protect harbour walls and coastal installations.
Designed by Eric Merrifield and first installed in East London harbour, they are now used all over the world.


The world's biggest hospital is in South Africa and is known as the Chris Hani -Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto, Johannesburg.

South Africa is one of only 12 countries where tap water is safe to drink. Its tap water is rated the third best worldwide.

Durban is the largest port in Africa and the ninth largest in the world.

South Africa is the first country in the World to have voluntarily abandoned its nuclear weapons capability.


South Africa is a middle income country with a strong emerging economy -the 25th largest in the world -and produces more goods than Portugal, Russia or Singapore. It also has Africa's biggest economy, three times larger than Nigeria or Egypt.


South Africa has the largest reserves of gold (35%), manganese (80%), chromium (68%), platinum-group metals (56%), vanadium (45%), and alumino-silicates (37%). South Africa also mines deeper than any other country in the world, up to depths of 2.5 miles at the Western Deep Levels Mine.

South Africa has the lowest cost of electricity in the world and the lowest cost of living compared to the worid's major cities.


South Africa has the largest hydro-electric tunnel system in the world at the Orange Fish Rivers Tunnel.

South Africa is the most advanced and productive economy in Africa, with a GDP nearly three times that of Egypt, its nearest competitor on the continent.


South Africa is the worlds major manufacturer of stainless steel tank containers for the international trade

South Africa is a major supplier of high- tech platinum catalytic convectors for motor vehicle exhausts to foreign automotive assemblers.

South African civil engineers have built dams and roads and blasted tunnels in South America as well as Africa

South African railway rolling stock has been exported to the Far East

South African electronic control and guidance systems for both civil and military applications are purchased by a number of foreign buyers

South Africa's textile industry has already established itself in world markets with a track record of quality and consistency. The industry is the number one global supplier of nylon sewing thread; supplies 20% of the worlds parachute fabrics and is an acknowledged global supplier of fabrics.

South Africa's stock exchange ranks among the 10 largest in the world

South Africa was identified by the US Department of commerce as one of the worlds top ten Big Emerging Markets (BEM's). With this designation the department of commerce has recognised the enormous potential that exists in South Africa for US business. It is expected that by the year 2010 the BEM market share will be larger than that of the EU and Japan combined. Clearly the BEM markets are the commercial investments of the future.

South Africa accounts for approximately 75% of the GDP for the Southern African region and for 45% of the GDP for the entire African continent.

Templeton Investment Management in January 2000 picked South Africa as its top emerging market




Just an illustration to show remoke that SA is not the african hell hole he may be expecting after reading some of your posts, as I said not a pissing contest, I firmly believe that crime is South Africa's major hurdle, if it can be reduced to normal proportions then the country will thrive if not it will slowly bleed to death.

[kaiser bill]

fluffy, as I said in another thread on South Africa....where else can't you stop and chat with a stranger.....not live in trepidation behind 10' high walls with razor wire......drive with windows up and doors locked.....not see kids playing or even walking in the streets......have dogs as pets not as guardians....so, clean this up fluffy and then you and I will have a beer on a sidewalk cafe in the centre of Johannesburg, and we'll discuss the good things of South Africa, because fluffy, it all depends on you rousing your countrymen out of their lethargy (black and white ). For all this I wish you well.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Fluffy may we call you " The Spindoctor" from now on?

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Not too long ago, Johannesburg was an excellent city in which to work. Commuting into the city centre was safe and easy and even for a woman, walking from office to car was an excercise of no particular problem or danger. This is a very far cry from the case today. In those not to far distant days even Hillbrow was viewed with little more than a wry grimace at the more Bohemian aspect of that high rise suburb.
When the great change in South African racial politics took place, the new master race acquired a vibrant city with which legacy they have achieved nothing of distinction. The general view may well be that such lack of achievement extends to the whole country, thereby accounting for the degree of negativism encountered on another Pprune thread.
But Johannesburg has suburbs of course and some of these are very nice places in which to live. Lanseria and Grand Central airports are to the north of the city, ORTIA to the east and Rand to the south. It can be quite congenial to live in the northern suburbs and commute to any one of the first three airfields. Commuting in rush hour is an absolute nightmare, not only because of the density of traffic but also because of the completely haphazard driving techniques of the majority of motorists, most of whom, white and black, have bought their licences, (or so it is rumoured).
So the answer to the original question is perhaps that Johannesburg is a ghastly place in which even to attempt to exist but that its suburbs can provide some of the most pleasant accomodation of any major industrial/business city in the world and with good enough amenities as well.
Of course there are more congenial places in South Africa in which to live but in general, and rather more particularily in aviation; in South Africa, Josies is where the work is.
As to guns, well, one may have several, but since the bandits are invariably armed with something a little more substantial than anything for which a member of the public can obtain a licence, there is no point in carrying one. You will be outgunned on the street corner and if held up and found to be in possession of a weapon; you will be shot, (or so it is rumoured.) Mind you, you probably will be anyway but perhaps not with quite such deliberation. In the home, a handgun safely tucked away somewhere is a nice adjunct to domestic safety but then so it is in England, particularily in rural areas, and most people probably have the equivalent of a baseball bat at least, tucked away under the marital mattress?:hmm:

[fluffyfan]

I.R.PIRATE you can call me anything you want, listen I am playing devils avocate here, its just a good debate, I hate the crime but I will let you in on my situation and you tell me if its a dilema or not.

kaiser bill and cavortingcheetah, I am as scared of the crime as anyone else in this country, I live in golf estate, surrounded by 10m high walls with an electric fence on top, 24 hour patrolling armed security company doing the rounds, the estate I live in is quite large about the size of a medium suburb, my house has a 2m wall with infra-red beams in the garden, 2 large dogs, in the house every room is monitored with passive infra-red, should someone get through all of this, he will not get to me or my family withought setting off the alarm, if that happens I will be at the top of the stairs in my underpants with a 9mm, obvious to the fact that it could be the maid, wife or child who has set the alarm off by mistake, I was an active member of a combat shooting club some time ago, I am aware of the dangers of a firearm but feel I have enough training and awareness to make the firearm a useful tool in my case.

That said and yes it does paint a pretty grim picture but here is the other side, we have had one case of petty crime in the estate in the last 5 years, a cell phone was stolen, the culprits were caught and prosecuted, my kids can ride there bikes walk and play with freedom in the estate, we can walk within the boundy of the estate with no fear of attack. On a recent trip to Perth we went on a river tour up the swan river, the boat guide enthusiastically pointed out the "millionair's houses" which to be honest would look pretty ordinary to most middle to upper class South Africans, I would not say I live in a mansion but compared to Aussie standards I suppose I do, we have a full time maid and gardener who do everything, I do not however drive a nice car, I cant afford it and in my mind it makes me less of a hijack risk (what self respecting criminal would want that piece of :mad: anyway).

I have a good job flying the latest equipment with decent pay.
I am not the average South African, most people dont live like this, many in my position do, if you want saftey and peace of mind you have to pay for it unfortunatley. Now do I give this all up and go live in NZ where there is terrible weather, the country according to people who have been and lived there is 30 years behind SA, mainly existing on farming and tourism, where the women are rough because they do all the domestic work, herd the cattle, sheep etc, or Aus the Police state where you can walk the streets at your leisure but dont even think of painting your own house or trying to change the oil in your car hecause the cops will come and get you after the neighbour calls them, both places are notoriously hard to make a living in and maybe I could aspire to be a taxi driver in one of these places, I would have a tough time finding an aviation job, maybe the UK which I could go to tomorrow and get a job, live in a shoe box and hope I never have to make use of the NHS which I have had first hand experience of and all I can say is its dismal compared to the SA private hospitals, the schools also shocking unless you find children calling the teacher by his first name and running amock acceptable. Hong Kong I will never be at home and the pay is not that good. Emirates, not a chance I dont want my wife and kids being second class citizens in an arab country surrounded by desert and cant go out because its too hot. Maybe Canada, would not mind a bush flying job flying float planes, but also very cold and totally different to my current way of life.

I think I will stick it out here in SA for a while and take a look see approach, noises are being made about the crime, the government has finally accepted there is a problem I just hope they can fix it somehow. I know most South Africans dont live this "balmoral existance" and are suffering, I hold nothing against anyone who has left SA to better themselves and make a better life, but I personally would probably never find a better standard of living in any other country other than the one I live in now, we go to restraunts, parks, pubs all the stuff people do in Aus or NZ, only difference is that these places have 24hr armed response and high walls.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Bring back the pass laws!!!:D

Having said that and following on from happy events of this last weekend, a definite move to return once life permits, probably within the next three years, is on the cards. One suspects that it would be Capetown rather than Johannesburg that were to be the honoured recipient city of such an august occasion. But that however is not so much due to any crime statistics as to its proximity to the sea and mediterranean life style.

The reality of course is that if this 2010 thing is a success, South Africa will never look back. On the other hand, look to emigrate to Zimbabwe if it is a failure. :ooh:

[fluffyfan]

I agree, 2010 will show the way, hopefully Bob will die some time soon as well and 4 million Zimbos will go home, talking to some of them thats what they want to do, although I doubt that his passing will have any effect whatsoever on the state of that country, its too far gone.

[remoak]

More and more interesting.

I suppose my observation would be, that all the luxury in the world is somewhat pointless if you have to live in a virtual fortress to enjoy it.

I must also say that this:-

Now do I give this all up and go live in NZ where there is terrible weather, the country according to people who have been and lived there is 30 years behind SA, mainly existing on farming and tourism, where the women are rough because they do all the domestic work, herd the cattle, sheep etc

- apart from being complete bollocks, is the reason that so many South African immigrants are universally hated when they move over here, and to Oz and the UK. That innate sense of superiority over the rest of the world, and the arrogance that leads them to say so at every opportunity, makes them pariahs. Worse than the bloody Poms.

For what it's worth, I could post a similar list of all the achievements of New Zealanders, from splitting the atom to inventing the jet boat, but who cares? it is pretty obvious to me that whilst South Africa was ruled by the white minority, it was a modern, industrially progressive country, with many excellent virtues (if you exclude apartheid). Since white rule ended, there has been a steady decline into anarchy.

New Zealand 30 years behind SA? You are living on a completely different planet if you think that. And even if it were true, the ability to live in near total safety - no razor wire, dogs, or weapons, no fear of hijack, being able to drive whatever I damn well please and not be scared of losing it - would be worth the 30 year gap.

I think it would be quite fun to come over there on a contract, relatively low-risk and some different flying. But I wouldn't even consider bringing the family, they enjoy their freedom to much to enjoy the constraints of having to live in a fortress to be safe. It might rain occasionally here, but the kids can roam the neighbourhood without fear.

It is laudable to be proud of your country - whatever it's state may be - but it is inexcusable to run down other countries in such a cavalier fashion, particularly if you have never been there.

[Frogman1484]

Hey Fluffy,

Thanks for pointing out the achievements for what Sa has done or is doing. What you also have to mention is that South Africa, if you like it or not is slowly going down the same path that the rest of africa has gone down.

Life is cheap in that part of the world...Sipho will not think twice before shooting you for you new BMW. The Government is corrupt, where els can you find a Deputy Prime minister that has pulled off the stuff Zuma did. The whilte male is getting pushed on the margins of society just because he is white.

Go to any place in Africa, which most of us guys have flown there, and you will see first hand that the middle class are also all living behind 10ft walls and their garden furniture chained to the washing line.

Mate, in Sa like in the rest of Africa they will steal the milk out of your coffee if you turn the wrong way.

Fluffy I hope you are saving enough money to buy your children a house in the same Golf development, because I know that outside of those 10ft walls and electric fences it is a jungle as the average person living in the normal burbs are ****ting them selves every time they pull up to there driveways.

Just ask yourself where are my children going to live one day, will they be able to afford a safe compound (sorry I meant estate).

[fluffyfan]

It is laudable to be proud of your country - whatever it's state may be - but it is inexcusable to run down other countries in such a cavalier fashion, particularly if you have never been there.

Bravo:D not nice is it, maybe you have some understanding of the frustration I feel reading some of these posts, and in the other threads.

No remoak I have not been to NZ, I have to rely on what other people have told me, it may all be a load of bollocks or it may have some truth in it, I guess I will just have to make my own descision when I visit there (as a tourist that is not a universally hated South African immigrant:) )

But your original thread was about what is Johannesburg like to live and work in, I have attempted to give you a honest answer, the usual negativity crept into this one and you were being sold a load of "bollocks" about what its like here, just incase you thought you were coming to a quait little African State with people killing eachother in the streets. It was however interesting to note the GDP and % growth figures and the fact that SA's economy is 4 times the size of NZ's, so you do the maths, come over here and when you are finished you can report your findings on this forum.

Frogman1484
Thanks for pointing out the achievements for what Sa has done or is doing. What you also have to mention is that South Africa, if you like it or not is slowly going down the same path that the rest of africa has gone down.
You may be interested to know that in the early 90's when Nelson Mandela was inaugurated President in 1994, SA was insolvent ,today the Government's deficit is negligible - one of only a handful of countries in this position. We've had single digit inflation since 1993 - following 20 years of double-digit inflation.........quote from Guy Lundy of Dimension Data Business Solutions

[kaiser bill]

Fluffy, do you really live in such paranoid disgusting conditions ...high walls,razor wire infra red beams, etc,etc ? Housemaid, gardener, lucky you......the things you say of Aus and NZ are completely and utterly erroneous as you should well know if you consider yourself educated, and fluffy, the reason South Africans are so disliked is because of people like you being so ignorant, and when Zuma and his cohorts become your beloved leader South Africa will become another Zimbabwe, so keep your nose clean else the countries you run down may not think you're a fit and proper person.:sad:

[kaiser bill]

I have just read flame lily's post.......fluffy,you still think you live in a paradise ? yeah right. Get out while you can , but go somewhere where they may appreciate you.....please.

[james ozzie]

FF - I was very interested in your list of SA first/biggests etc - where did you get this information?
I ask because (again) I challenge this notion that there are only 12 countires in the world where the tap water is safe to drink. I am sure the well travelled pruners could name many more than 12 - even in my limited travels I think I could. Besides which, town water is only as good as the local purifying plant; admittedly these are subject to national standards.
You could add to your list the Western Deep Level mine is still the deepest in the world; the Eastern transvaal dry cooled power stations were/are the biggest in service and I was once told that the Sishen-Saldanha ore trains are the heaviest in the world but I now suspect there are even heavier coal trains here in Oz.
I have noticed over the years that Ozzies & Saffers continuously make claims to the biggest/best in the southern hemisphere (ignoring South America of course, where they build those airliners...) whereas as the Zimmies & Kiwis don't stuff around - they claim to be the biggest/best in the world (as in NZ butter, Zim white water rafting etc etc)
A sort of a kid brother syndrome?? As you say, a pissing contest - nice phrase.

[prospector]

Flame Liliy FX,
Just as well that article was headed SOUTH AFRICAN BULLETIN, otherwise it could have been taken to have come out of any number of ex colonial African countries.
I find it so suprising that many of the financiers of a lot of these so called freedom fighters have not come out of the woodwork and said how proud they are of the results of their generosity. Especially when one is reliably informed that at least one Council of Churches supplied the ANC with considerable funding.

[remoak]

Fluffy

It was however interesting to note the GDP and % growth figures and the fact that SA's economy is 4 times the size of NZ's, so you do the maths, come over here and when you are finished you can report your findings on this forum.

Hmmm... I actually don't need to come over there for that...

Population - South Africa: 44M New Zealand: 4M
Land area - South Africa: 471,000 square miles New Zealand: 103,500 square miles

Well that certainly explains the difference in the sizes of the two economies...

But let's look at some more interesting figures:

Life Expectancy - SA: 42.7 NZ: 78.8
Infant Mortality - SA: 60.7/1000 NZ: 5.8/1000
Literacy rate - SA: 86% NZ: 99%
GDP per capita - SA: US$12,100 NZ: US$24,200
Unemployment - SA: 25.2% NZ: 4%

(http://www.infoplease.com)

So I did the maths, and, guess what, it appears that in every meaningful way, NZ is a better place to live than SA.

I don't say that just to engage in a pissing contest, but merely to show that the size of the economy is irrelevant when comparing countries.

Also, it isn't all South African immigrants that are universally hated, just the arrogant ones that refuse to integrate into NZ society. We are more than happy to see them go home. Others fit in and become valued members of NZ society. Well, some of them get a bit rowdy when the All Blacks hammer them at rugby and the Black Caps cream then in the cricket... :}:}

I'd still like to come over there, but I won't be spending my time telling everyone how much better NZ is... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Frogman1484]

Inflation in single digits...yes but the single digit is still twice the rest of the world...

So have you thought what the future offers your kids? Can they become a policeman, nurse if they so wished or are they the wrong color. Will they be able to live in a nice estate with 10 ft walls....ummm think about that.

[gofor]

Being following this closely now and actually wondering why Remoak has started this thread. Are you actually interested in working in SA at all. You knock the place and at the same time want to work here - gain more experience? You say SA has higher unemployment - do they really need you? You are not as special or desired in SA as you may think as there are many young pilots with decent experience who are begging for that job you casually consider ' YOURS'.
Another misconstrued concept is that South Africa is going like it's northern Neighbour down the tube - clearly disgruntled ex-Zim's or Safers who's only reality with SA is to dig up some negative threads that they have surfed from their offshore home. SA is NOT ZIM!
FF seems to be the only real Safer on this thread who actually lives in SA and therefore has fair comment. :ok:
Flame-lily ex your post at 21h07 is a bit confusing - are you now claiming to be ex-Zim? You spend a lot of time on this - get a life man, you have indicated you want nothing to do with SA, you have moved out of Southern Africa - get a grip and move on!
By the way we can go on about every RH merc 'C' class since 2001, VW, BMW, Hummer 3 RHD(in production) built for export - and then there is the SA built and designed arms in service outside of SA - SA going like ZIM - yea riiiiight!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

There are two threads running on the subject of South Africa at the moment. It would be convenient if they were merged into one because, obviously enough, much of one thread merges into the other. This is of course a well nigh impossible task for the honourable censors and editors to accomplish and they have wisely refrained from attempting it.
Let's try a slightly different tack here for a moment. One which is put forward without wishing in any way to engage in racial or tribal discussions. If one were to propound the theory that South Africa is by far the most congenial country in sub Saharan Africa for a white man to live and prosper today, and that its potential for stability and future growth is greater than that of any other black African country; would that cause raucous argument?
One awaits developments! :ooh:
Other sub Saharan countries that have a certain appeal in this regard would perhaps be Botswana, Namibia and perhaps Uganda. (No Private Eye innuendo is intended.) But none of these countries offer the same geographic diversification, amenities, communications, infra structure and potential for growth as does South Africa.:D
Australia and New Zealand are fine places, although on a personal basis one happens to greatly prefer New Zealand. But comparision of either of these Pacific countries with South Africa is really quite inappropriate is it not?
South Africa is possessed of an advantage that is unquantifiable yet quite tangible. It is Africa!:D

[Frogman1484]

I reckon we should shut this thread as nobody is going to agree I say it is going down the hill , you say it is not...well thats fine with me. I have chosen to move on and give my kids what I consider a normal upbringing, you think that the future for them in SA is good enough, fair enough...now let talk about flying!!!:ok: :ok: :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Right Ho Then!

What about long term opportunities for white aviators in South Africa?:p
Discuss!:ugh:

[remoak]

gofor

wondering why Remoak has started this thread. Are you actually interested in working in SA at all. You knock the place and at the same time want to work here - gain more experience?

Well if you care to actually read the thread... I was offered a position in SA, so I was trying to find out what it is like there. I didn't say anything against SA at all, at least until one of your countrymen decided to diss my home. Even then, I only offered easily obtainable statistics.

If you knew the contract world at all, you would know that the REASON that I have been contacted is because there is nobody currently in SA who has my qualifications and is currently available. Don't worry, I won't be there long...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Right Ho Then!

What about short term opportunities for white aviators in South Africa?
Of course, it would be hilariously apt, would it not, if remoak were of aborignal descent?:D

[beechbum]

Remoak,
It's a real pity that the continuous negativity of the average South African on this forum keeps on rearing it's ugly head. To have a go at NZ on one side and bring down their own country on the other is somewhat pathetic. Sure we all have rights to our own opinion, (before I get shot down like so many others.) As the other thread states "Why are South Africans so negative?".....it should also read why are they so bitter and twisted?
Remoak this place is no bed of roses as you can see by what has been posted here, but my 5 cents worth, you've been given an opportunity to lend some of your expertise this side of the ocean so grab it with both hands and come experience it all for yourself. Like NZ, SA has alot to offer in many fields...and as I said before eyes wide open and everything should be fine.
As for others....fellas get a grip....deal with it and get on with life. We all do not have the opportunity to live in a 40 storey flat in Hong Kong, (I prefer my 6 foot - not 10ft wall) - and bring up our kids on greener, sandier, or harder pastures. For those that do...great and good luck....for those of us who don't....hey we have to get on with life and try and make a go of what we have.
Going forward.... with eyes wide open............yeeha!!!!:eek: :eek: :ok:

[remoak]

Beechbum

Yep, my gut feeling is to go for it, enjoy the good bits, but, as you say, keep my eyes wide open.

I survived New York, so SA should be easy... ;)

And I am indeed from aboriginal descent... in this case, the aboriginal inhabitants being those of that small Island to the west of Europe... :} Yes, paler than the inside of a coconut!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Aboriginal descent from island to the west of Europe yet paler than the inside of a coconut?:hmm:
At the slight risk of more thread drift and in a spirit of entirely good intent; one wonders then whether you would be an albino native of the Cape Verde islands?;)
In which case you should, as they say, go down a bundle in Josies!:suspect:

[remoak]

Well, not quite. The island immediately to the west of Europe is a cold, damp place that has given the world some truly wonderful inventions... you know, black pudding sausage, cricket, Concorde, stuff like that... ;)

Don't make the mistake of thinking that said island is part of Europe.... :=:=

[Fliterisk]

Fact is that SA is still a good place to live if you are in the upper income groups.

Remoak, your statistics may well be correct if you are considering living in a hut in the platteland, a bone through your nose, coal burning stove and a sack tied around your fat little belly... a word of advice:

Research the country before posting meaningless stats. There are two ecomomies in SA, one skews the other in a big way.

I for one am considering emigrating due to the crime, as most SA'ers are, however not everyone has this option, and for ex pats and foreigners to diss SA, and the people that live there is puerile. Most of all, dont criticise people living there, because they live there!

There are many good people in SA, both Black and White trying to make a living and living the dream, crime or no crime. It may or may not happen, but to those who are trying you may be better people than me. I cannot understand why ex pats spend so much time criticising SA instead of trying to integrate into their new lives... the reasons may never be understood!

However, Remoak, if I were going to NZ to work, I would try and make it a positive experience. You clearly are an exceptional person / pilot, with skills that SA has never seen before, and perhaps you will make a success in SA. But a warning, where the Aussies are very intolerant of arrogance and will close doors, South Africans will meet your arrogance head on... we dont have the same big stick hanging over our heads all the time. Tone it down, be grateful that you have this opportunity where there are so many that dont and enjoy SA for all it has to offer. It really is a special place, and the people that are trying to make it work will make you forget all about your ridiculous statistics which make NZ the utopia you make it out to be.

[gofor]

REMOAK.
Well if you care to actually read my post, I clearly wrote that the job you are offered is casually considered 'YOURS'.
Look if you take the job with a positive attitude and you have reasonable vigilance with local advice you will be rewarded in my opinion. Looking for advice on a rumour network is probably not the advice you are looking for , hence this debate outbreak. Your skills may be matched in Southern Africa as there have been a few BAE146 operators here , SAFAIR, Air Bots, Air zim -come to mind - but then again I don't know you, and maybe you have the edge they need - then again there may be some PDA types the Govt would be more interested in seeing here.
I really hope you get to experience the good company of the SA type working pilot in SA to give you a better impression.
As for contract working - you are speaking to a South African here, not many pilots here have not done that!

[remoak]

Fliterisk

Research the country before posting meaningless stats. There are two ecomomies in SA, one skews the other in a big way.

I get that, I was simply answering one meaningless stat with another (or two).

Most of all, dont criticise people living there, because they live there!

I don't recall doing that...

You clearly are an exceptional person / pilot, with skills that SA has never seen before

Oh, per-leese! I am simply rated on a type that is currently experiencing a worldwide shortage of captains. If the company could find a SA pilot I am sure they would employ him or her. However, they can't, so they look elsewhere whilst they train up locals. Don't put words in my mouth.

Perhaps I should come over there, and we could all get together and settle this over a pint or ten? :D:D:D

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Ah yes, Eire! An island with which one is not entirely unacquainted.
It's a funny place really, Ireland, the Zimbabwe of Europe of the last century. Its population, forever leaving its dark and emeraldless shores, have perhaps been more responsible for the black economy of other countries than has been provided by the migratory antics of any other race of people.
Oh yes, old bean, you forgot the Guiness! But then, as you must know, toucan play at this game.;)

[Fliterisk]

:) A pint or ten Remoak... now you are really pushing it... you gonna make me mad:} :} :} :}

There is nothing that cant be sorted out over eleven...:ok: :E

Keep us posted, if you are unsure about SA when you get here, I am 100% convinced that a couple of ppruners will be happy to show you how its done in SA...
:)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Mind you though, anyone who could possibly down ten pints of that disgusting stuff which passes for beer in either South Africa or New Zealand - or, for that matter,-Australia, has little taste for the hop; a fruit which is singularily lacking in all examples. The ersazt beer of these countries is only good for the dunking of ginger biscuits, which improves the taste of the former whilst achieving nothing for that of the latter. :p

Now...what used to be called Kaffir beer...well, it is highly nutritious at the least.:D

[madherb]

CC, it's actually 'GUINNESS' - an erudite gent such as yersel' shouldna insult the lads at St. James's Gate Brewery in such a desultory fashion!

Agree on the SA beer - at least one can easily obtain Windhoek Lager, and more cheeringly, and with a little more diligence in search mode, that prince of Namibian beer - Tafel Lager. Ah, I feel a smile coming on just at the thought of a tall glass, brimming with that amber nectar brewed with loving care, from the sandy wastes of Nam...............bye, must run, thirst coming on.

......and speaking of nutrition, surely now the good black stuff from the green island is not to be topped?

:ok: Cheers! Slainte!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

My Goodness!
A palpable hit!
:{

[beechbum]

Hey Fliterisk.....get a life.....!!!!! :p
Remoak if you need any help or info would be glad to offer assistance. By the way we're all not negative whinging individuals like the rest on this thread!!
Good luck with your decision and hope it's the right one!!!
Amstel shortage looming on the horizon.........!!!!! :{

[remoak]

CC...

I am becoming a little concerned about your grasp of geography. Ireland is the small island to the west of the island that is to the west of Europe. The clue lies in the invention of cricket. The Irish only got as far as hurling, a crude and violent game that a true gentleman would never indulge in...

And as for that brown liquid... if I want runny Marmite, I'll water it down myself... :p

OK so are we all friends now? If I get there, I'll buy you all a pint or ten and you can equip me for the task. One of you can show me to the AK-47 shop... :cool:

[birdlady]

Have you all noticed that these conversations always end up with you lot talking about beer. :ok: :ok: :p

Ireland.........cricket :ooh: A game, according to us irish, that was invented for protestants and poofters. :p :p :)

On a more serious note, it never ceases to amaze me how negative us saffers can be. Myself included. I keep telling myself that Im better off this side of the pond but given half a chance Id definately go back. A work permit (or lack of) would be my major obstacle. :{ :{ :{ :{

Fluffy you are a breath of fresh air :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Curioser and curioser. Because, you see, the west coast of Portugal, which is in Europe, is some 4 degrees further west than the furthermost coast of the island that might otherwise have been to the west of Europe were it not to the east.

Cricket was invented in Mesopotamia and not in Barbados. Mind you though, the English like to think that they can trace the game back to the 13th century in England. But then, that would be in the reign of the Plantagenets and thus the game would be French in origin?
As for the AK 47, try the Randburg bus station or Mr Zuma's campaign headquarters.;)

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Herr Cheetah and Mr Remoak...

Drop me a pm when you get into town. I know where they hide the good stuff.:ok:





www.gilroybeers.co.za

[remoak]

Aha! I see the problem. You are making the elementary mistake of all amateur cartographers.

In order to calculate west-ness, you have to apply the Idoan-Giveatoss formula. This formula, loosely based on the well-known Duckworth/Lewis Method, clearly states that west-ness is a function of:

(ability to speak English proper-like) x 1/2(damn foreign johnnies) + ((pi x 4:00pm) - cost of a pint) x 42

It is pretty obvious which country is therefore to the west of which.

As far as Cricket goes, you omitted to mention that the Mesopatamian that invented the game was a half brother to John, Lord Marbury, Earl of Croy, Earl of Sherbourne, Marquess of Needham and Dolby, Baronet of Brycey. Something to do with their mother and a brief fling in Istanbul. The game is therefore as English as a late-model Mini Cooper.

Yes, I would like to know what Airlink is like to work for...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

One must bear in mind that Mesopotamian cricket was played, using as balls, the heads of decapitated daughters of kings. The game was a devotion offering to the god Baal. The priests of the time having the responsibility, as the only literati amongst the population, as layers down of the law of the game.
The game later spread westwards through what is now Turkey to Greece, after which its progress into civilized europe was stumped. In its relentless progress westward the game caught out one casualty, a boy of Greek descent who lived in Smyrna (modern day Izmir). This little Turko-Greek bowled along through life and ended up in Coventry, England where after many vicissitudes, he went on to design the Mini car. The latest and final de luxe models of which had wicket work on the side panels. Thus there is little of the English in either cricket or the Mini.

Any connection between these facts and life and work in Johannesburg would be tenuous. One would not want a silly point caught by a slip from cover and so will bat out. Over as it were.:)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Just to get matters back on track, this from yesterday's South African press.

South Africa has become one of the most dangerous countries in the world in which to be a police officer, said the Inkatha Freedom Party on Wednesday.

Party spokesperson Velaphi Ndlovu said the emotional damage the job caused was shown in the increased number of police-officer suicides in the second half of last year.

According to Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula - in a written reply to a parliamentary question by Ndlovu - 506 police officers committed suicide between 2000 and 2005.

Suicides accounted for the deaths of 23 officers in the first six months of 2006, but this figure doubled to 46 in the last six months of the year.

"Serious questions must be asked on why this figure increased so sharply," Ndlovu said.

"To make matters worse, police psychologists are leaving the organisation in dangerously high numbers, although the minister revealed in his written reply that only 19 left in 2006, which is questionable."

SAPS in a dismal state

The IFP was shocked that of the 46 police officers killed in the line of duty between July 1 and December 31 2006, 47.87% were murdered and 45.62% killed in vehicle accidents.

"It is clear that the South African Police Service finds itself in a dismal state of affairs and without clear commitment from the government to improve the conditions in which police officers go about doing their duties every day; things can only get worse," said Ndlovu.

A handsom offer SRT and one on which you might be taken up. Many thanks.cc

[remoak]

Well that's all a bit depressing, let's get back to cricket.

I now understand why the cricket ball is red. Those heads can bleed out rather slowly. Of course, the real question is how the Mesopatamians found their supplies of willow. One can only assume that this has something to do with the Crusades, if one can permit a bit of epoch juxtapositioning.

Personally, I find it more likely that the game was an offshoot of early Hebrew ceremonies, the three stumps signifying the prophesied triune God - smart guy, that Isaiah.

When you mention that the game was stumped during it's progress towards Europe, I assume that you mean that that the hands of the fast bowlers were removed by Muslim hordes, for insulting the world of Islam by beating them by an innings and six wickets in a one-dayer whilst resting on the journey west.

I should probably stop now, before my agressive batting style results in me being caught at short backward square (again).

One small point - the Mini is now no longer British, owned as it is by BMW.

We still won the war, though...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

That'll do very nicely thank you as an explanation for the fanatical desire of the British to keep their hold on Palestine, the Hebrew homeland and fatherland of cricket?
The war, whichever one of which one cares to speak, was won by the Americans when they introduced baseball into Europe, a much faster and aggressive game than cricket. One altogether more suited to the linguistic temperament of the European polyglot.

Moving on a little here, one has to say that living in Johannesburg in particular equips one with a third eye. This is located between one's shoulder blades. Even the most mundane of activities, such as crossing a car park, requires constant vigilance and awareness. Life in the combat zone is only, if ever, amusing for a fairly short time. There is a certain freedom of action which is available to those who choose not to live in Johannesburg which, at the moment at least, is not the case with those who do.:{

[remoak]

Ah yes, baseball. Sadly, the US military failed to explain the game adequately, and the result was that most quintessentially English of games - rounders. Using a bat that accurately resembled the British psyche - small, uneven, and wooden - the game was embraced in the Mother land, but universally shunned by the colonies. The original plan, to invent a game that the Brits could actually win at international level, was thus shelved, and the game consigned to primary schools, and the occasional drunken part on the village green. Since those days, the Brits have been unable to win any of the games that they invented (apart from a brief resurgence of darts).

Violence - what you say reminds of my days in Belfast in the late '80s. Wherever you went in the city, it felt like you had a squaddie peering at you through his telescopic sight. They were twitchy, too. The space between my shoulder blades was always alert.

Mind you, I just spent the last half an hour scoping out Johannesburg on Google Earth, and I couldn't see any violence at all. Lots of Jumbos on the ramp though (and a DC3). What is the name of that nice-looking suburb across the road from the western runway?

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It's all pretty built up around there but perhaps it might be Bedfordview?:confused:

[remoak]

I'm pretty sure that you can't see Bedford from there... curvature of the earth and all that...

[Fliterisk]

Remoak, I think you are referring to Kempton Park... you dont want to live there... too many pilots.... lots of idle chit chat, smoking, occassional work and gazing up at the sky talking about lots of nothing. Try more Edenvale way, more of a mix there, some pilots, some normal folk, baie "los"...

Make sure you leave them behind tho', with the emigration NZ seems to have become a little better looking at our expense...

[fluffyfan]

Glad we are all friends now;) remoak dont forget the pub High Flyers (write it down), you wont find a better aviation pub, dare I say in the world? maybe not I have not been everywhere in the world, but in South Africa at least.

I see the SA boys are on your island for some super 14 games this weekend, I will be watching with enthusiasim. Your comment about the all blacks thrashing us most of the time would be challenged by myself if it were not so damn true:{ I am however optimistic about the Rugby world cup, but then I suppose I have shown I am optimistic about most things.

As for airlink, I worked there for a while many years ago, its not a bad place, good maintenance facilities, most of the pilots dont like the big boss, they say hates pilots, but although the pay is not great, the flying is good lots of interesting destinations, the aircrew are good guys and I am sure you will have a hangover or 10 discussing world politics with them.

[remoak]

Sounds like fun. There used to be a pub in Zaventem (Brussels) called "Pitchers" I think, that was run by a couple of Sabena pilots... great place, so I'll be sure to check out High Flyers.

I'll be watching the Super 14 as well, you guys normally give a pretty good account of yourselves so they should be good games.

My home team (Hurricanes) are playing the Sharks in Durban, and the Lions the week after that, so my eyes will be firmly on SA for the weekend.

I guess one of the joys of contract flying, is that you don't have to worry about pay, accommodation, all that stuff. The local politics don't apply.

Anyway... I don't know if I'm coming yet. Once I know, I'll be in touch for beers!

BTW, does anyone know if you can get wireless broadband in Johannesburg?

[126,7]

BTW, does anyone know if you can get wireless broadband in Johannesburg?

Sure there is. Just bring/buy your router.

[Frogman1484]

Wow I Bet RF is not happy about a true union representing his boy and girls...I wonder if he can fire the top union guy this time!!!:D :ok:

[fluffyfan]

Or bribe him like he did with the one before the one he fired, its about time the Airlink boys recieved a fair remuneration, would love to see 1000 people toi-toiing outside airlink offices, I am sure it would wipe the smug look of RF's face