Challenger 300 or Hawker 4000

[Dutchman]

Hi all would apreciate any advice from operators out there. My company is looking to replace our hawker 800 fleet within a short period. Any advice on the Challenger 300 or Hawker 4000 pro/con's.

[Stratocaster]

Is Bombardier still slashing the prices on new airplanes? Could be a factor if you plan to sell your 300 later on.

[galaxy flyer]

The CL300 was announced after the Hawker 4000 and over 120 had been delivered before the first 4000 delivery. Anyway....
CL300 has bigger cabin, 17% greater volume and about 8 inches wider at shoulder level. Flat floor. M.80 for 3100 miles,VFR. Conventional construction, so you are not a test case. The CL300 has Collins Proline 21 avionics with 10x12 inch screens, well liked by crews and OEMs. Very good seller (over 120 delivered and over 225 on order, so delivery might be later than you want.
Hawker 4000: smaller cabin, longer range (3400 nm VFR) at the about 20 knots less speed. Honeywell Epic avionics with 8x10 inch screens. Only a few have been delivered, but due to the delays in certification, you might get one fairly quickly. The prime advantage of carbon fiber construction to this point is the potential for cost savings in production and less labor. The Hawker 4000 doesn't have any dramatic performance gains over conventional construction. So far, carbon fiber has not been well received by the business aircraftmarket place-remember the Starship and the Premier isn't doing so well. Personal opinion, until the B-787 proves itself in the airline market, carbon fiber is a dead end commercially.

Look at both, see which works.

GF

[trainer too 2]

Look at what the 4000 does out of performance restricted airports vs de 300 and you will see that it is the better plane!

Cabin wise the 300 is slightly better but if that is the issue than the G200 is much better than both!

The experience I have is that Raytheon is the best customer support wise and Bombardier is a DISASTER. Look at the G V vs the Global similar aircraft but no competition: reliability and support of Gulfstream is 10 times better. Bombardier has been telling for a decade that they will improve but they are still cr@p :yuk:

So I would suggest the G200, then the 4000 and last and least the 300 :8

[His dudeness]

I´m flying the 300 and I´m also the maintenance manager for that airplane.
It is a real fun airplane to fly, thats for sure. Loads of punch, great brakes etc.

Cabin is great,very roomy, but relatively noisy IMO.Main issue there is the door seal, which is not inflatable -you can move it in flight and see the sky...and the venting in the toilet that exhausts a lot of air into the battery compartment for heating. When you close the toilet door and the optional door between galley and cabin its way better. The Galley could be bigger, since we sometimes fly 7+ hrs...Baggage space is not as big as it should be IMO.
Systems are very straightforward,dark cockpit philosophy, great FMS es (Collins 5000),Proline 21 is absolutely the best you can get, CAT II capable.
We do have the berthable divan which is very much liked by our clients.

We have had (in roughly 350hrs) these snags:
1) Engine changed because of oil chip detected. (after 24hrs in service!!!) Comment of Honeywell: we never had ANY trouble in the oil system of that engine...the replacement was removed of an other airframe for....oil chips !
2) 2 PFD´s went blank
3) several standby instruments (BIG ISSUE: No stall protection withoutit, NOGO)
4) thrust reverser failed, new throttle quadrant solved that
5) faulty Fuel Hi LVL detector, R/H wing wouldn´t take any fuel...
6) spoiler computer defect
7) FMS CDU defect
8) L/H windshield leaky, exchanged
9) 2 brakes leaky, exchanged
10) lots of interior snags, such as seat pedestal covers coming off etc. Bombardier has an issue of quality, but they already changed to a new supplier
11) Paint: L/H engine inlet cowling lost most of it. Big areas along the fuselage that will come loose soon (you can feel it)
12) One airshow monitor went u/s
13) DVD player u/s

All in all I think Bombardier is trying hard but that airplane is complex maintenance wise, cause its a loose formation of flying computers and failure tracing can be difficult...

Rwy performance is absolutely fantastic for a real swept wing jet. Very low V-speeds. Fantastic brakes. Handles very easy, the hydraulic rudder, aileron and elevator are fantastic. The gear does a perfect job, even my landings are smooth...

It matches all numbers in the books, sometimes its even better. Longest trip I did was some 3380 NAM at .78 in the beginning and .82 towards the end, we landed with 1800 lbs remaining.

The field reps here in Europe do a good job, but Bombardier should make their homework. There is no sense in their propaganda regarding a filled sparepart warehouse in Frankfurt when EVERY single part we needed has to come from Montreal.
When we took delivery they said they realise that the market rates their support in not so good marks and that they want to improve...

I don´t really now the Hawker 4000, but Raytheon needed a real long long time to get it certified...I personally wouldn´t want that airplane before S/N 150 or so, but thats just my opinion.

[Dutchman]

Thanks all for input on this matter will be getting a demo flight on the 4000 this month so will have a chance to anylise one of the aircraft already personally.

[Red Mud]

The G200 is not in the same catagory as the other two. Less of everything. Best advice is to try a test drive in both the 300 and 4000. From what I know the 300 is a fabulous performer... outdoing all performance promises. I really have no knowlegde of the 4000. Good luck!

[tallinnman]

Where does the Sovereign stand against these two aircraft.

[galaxy flyer]

CE680? Less of everything! Less range at slower cruise Mach and smaller cabin. But less runway requirements! Less of everything.

GF

[picknic pilot]

After all posts here....well,I would better get BBJ1...private:ok: :ok: :ok:

[NZ X man]

After you demo the aircraft, will you put your opinion out so other crew can get an idea. This would be greatly appreciated, not much is known about the aircraft.:}

[av8or48]

I flew the C300 last year on demo and I was very impressed with the performance. (still climbing at 1200 fpm approaching FL410 at mid weights).
One point that I didnt like was the elevator feel (or non-feel!!!) and no flare on landing. I was advised that i would have to be "Challengerised" !!!???
Great cabin and reasonable baggage, but VERY noisy in the cabin. This made our decision not to purchase.
Sorry no info on 4000

[canadairguy]

Have any Hawker 4000s actually been delivered?