Difficult captains

[John Citizen]

I have being flying multi crew for several thousand hours now and I am just not sure how to deal with certain captains.

I am sure others have experienced the same and so I was after some advice about how to best deal with the situation.

There are some captains out there who seem like they get great satisfaction out of criticising first officers or always trying to point out their mistakes and teach them something new all time. Others won’t let you make any decision on your own. :ouch:

These captains, who are not even training or check and training captains like to treat each flight as a training flight, even though I was checked to line a long time ago. :confused:

They come up with comments and criticisms about my flying that not even a check and training pilot would pick up with on a check flight !!
I try not to make the same mistake with them again, but every flight they seem to find something new to criticise me about. Like I had been doing the same thing for the past 12 months with them and all the check and training captains, but only now they come up with the criticism over something that did not matter to them or anyone else ever before.

Seems like a no win situation as they always find a fault with my flying. :ouch:

Other times these captains like to “train me” by telling me to do something differently to how I do it. I am only flying the way I was trained by the training captains but these line captains try to teach me new ways, as if I am flying the wrong way (non SOP). :confused:

I am sure standardisation is a big issue not just amongst line pilots but even amongst training captains.

What do you do if a training captain has trained you one thing and then along comes a line captains who tells you to fly another way ?
It is possible he was trained a different way by a different training captain and so he might think he is right and I am wrong.
What do you in these situations and sometimes it can make life very frustrating when the captain has got nothing better to do than criticise you or try to retrain you on a normal line flight.
What do I do ?
Go along with them and do whatever they say just to keep them happy ? :oh:
Report them to the chief pilot for trying to teach me something different to the way I was originally trained ? :=
Make to comments to the captain like :
I didn’t know you were a training captain now ? :p
I didn’t know this was a training flight ? :p
I don’t believe the SOPs’ say that and point it out to them. :p
I was trained differently to the way you want me to fly by training captains, but you are only a line captain (so why should I listen to you?). :p
I am sure some of these comments would not go down well but what do I do. I am getting tired of being a “yes man, yes, I do whatever you say captain..” :oh:

I just want to keep the peace and be a good FO, but it can be so annoying and I feel like I am in a no win situation sometimes. Some captains will always find something to critisize me about, try to teach me something, or to do something a different way. :ugh:

I have seen other crew members encounter the same problem. Usually the FO’s who stand up to these captains all off sudden get treated a lot worse. Before you know it, they got nothing better to do it but argue and fight over the SOP’s, with books and manuals being opened and quoted etc…and they will both hate each other with a passion. :mad:

I think its against some of these captains pride to point them out as being wrong and they will get back at you (criticize you) a lot more now just to rub it in how incompetent you are. :(

One of the captains that I fly with has made comments to others “how to expect FO’s to learn if we captains don’t tell them anything” and so he thinks its his right to teach / train / critisize every flight. :*

What do you in the situation to make my life as an FO easier but not ruin the friendship / working relationship ?

It’s a lot worse when each captain has their own unique flying ways and expects you to adapt to their ways.

Its getting to the point where I have to keep notes on each captain to review just before I fly with them.

I am sure that captains don’t like “difficult FO’s” who won’t listen and like to argue back. I don’t want to become one of these.

It shouldn’t be like this. Any successful solutions ?
Go with flow, put up with it or stand up for myself ?

[tinpis]

Geezaz what kind of hinky outfit you working for there? :ooh:
Will you tell us?

[remoak]

It's an Australian thing. Doesn't happen in the real world. Try moving to Europe... :}:}:}:ok:

Seriously though, just stick to the SOPs and politely refuse to depart from them. If your captain presses the issue, and it is a serious departure from company SOPs, press the "event" button on the DFDR and try to get him to repeat it before the CVR loops over itself. Have a chat to your Base Captain or Fleet Manager about it. If any of your managers tell you to "shut up and do as you are told", get them to put that in writing.

Of course all of the above will jepoardise your job if your airline is as dodgy as it sounds. The only other option is to "go with the flow".

One further option... probably a job-killer... go see the CASA Flight Ops Inspector for your airline.

We've all been there, you have to be a little pragmatic in the airline business.

[John Citizen]

Let me further elaborate.

I am not talking about large deviations from the SOPs.

I am talking more about captains who like to "split hairs" in regards to general flying techniques / procedures and the exact interpretation of the SOP's.

There are many different ways to fly an aeroplane or to interpret the SOP's. Usually 1 method is just as safe and efficient as another, and perfectly safe and legal and within the confines of the SOPs.

Some captains like to "split hairs" over things than don't really matter at all and others (training captains) just could not care about it because its not important.

Some captains are adamant that I fly their way even if my way will make no real difference at all to the end result.

[Buster Hyman]

I found this photo of John Citizen & I've figured out his problem!

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/167000/167048XEgd_w.jpg

;););)

[tinpis]

John,are you a flight attendant? :hmm: :rolleyes:

[Clown Act]

I always find a nice roquefort flavoured air biscuit, 10 secs of savouring time and then a lovely cheshire-cat style grin will break the ice so to speak.

I find using the stopwatch (if you have one fitted on your aircraft) adds that little perfect touch as your compatriot looks over thinking, "Why the f%$k did he just start a clock?".

[Chimbu chuckles]

Romeok...really? You need to fly with a few Brits to truly experience anal retention.

JC This tends to depend to a large degree on your experience. 'Bully' style captains tend to pick on the very innexperienced because they generally don't know enough, or don't have the self confidence/life experience to effectively stand up for themselves without unduly upsetting the captain concerned.

There are two scenarios.

1/. The advice is within SOPs and merely a technique thing.

2/. The advice is NON SOP.

In the first instance perhaps you just need to relax and accept that the captain may just have some insight that you don't have. In this case just smile and say "Gee thanks, I had never thought of that/doing it that way, I'll wrk on it." Try what he is suggesting and either incorporate it if it is better and works or don't...if you don't next time he asks why you are not doing it simply suggest the way you're doing it seems to work better for you.

In the second you must first realise that SOPs change. They are merely the preferences of the current fleet C&Ting management. If the captain has been with the company a long time chances are good that he was taught a completely different SOP many years before and sees no reason to change just because the ops management has decided to put their stamp on things. Probability is high that if he has been with the company a VERY long time he has seen sundry SOPs go full circle at least once....that is the way he does things has gone from in favour to out of favour and back in favour again...there are not that many ways of flying an aeroplane.:ugh:

In this instance perhaps ask him to show you the reference in the company OPs manual so that "you don't cock it up at your next recurrent...because it seems different to what you have been taught". Be very sure of your ground before you do this...one good thing about flying with ******** captains is it keep you in the books, or it should, so you know absolutely what SOP actually is...we all fall into bad habits. If he consistantly cannot back up his BS with cold hard fact sooner or later he'll stop. If he ackowledges that it is non SOP but in his view it is 'better' I would tend to agree with him BUT point out that you, as an FO, don't get the leeway he enjoys and must follow SOPs irrespective if you ever hope to make it to the LHS one day "when it is my turn". This lets him believe that you think he is really clever and would happily do it his way if the C&Ting department would just realise their mistake and incorporate his 'clever idea' into the manual. 9 times out of 10 these individuals have been passed over repeatedly for training positions because they are so non standard but are not sufficiently non standard to cause the training department to take direct action. 9 times out of 10 the training department knows exactly what they are like but as it doesn't effect them they do nothing...so what if he annoys the **** out of the FOs?

Don't get into a pissing competition...you'll almost certainly lose...there is a reason he is the captain...although sometimes it is difficult to comprehend a good reason.:rolleyes:

At the end of the day if you fly standard and make no waves you will be noticed and not have to fly with the crunt anymore...because you will be a captain.

[witwiw]

Almost 15 years as an F/O in similar circumstances taught me a lot about being diplomatic. Treat it as an opportunity to determine the sort of Captain you won't be. It may mean pandering to these sorts to bolster either their inadequate self confidence or inflated egos ("obviously the company doesn't recognise my ability otherwise I'd be an official Training Captain") but, when you are in command, you will be all the better for it. Some words of wisdom imparted by my Training Captain when I was up for command:- "There are two types of respect. That which you Command and that which you Demand, you work out which is desirable". Unfortunately such sage-like words would obviously be lost on the types you have to endure. This advice still sticks in my mind after some 20 years and, to a degree, influences the way I work with other crew members. Doesn't mean making concessions, just determining the way you go about things.

[RENURPP]

Being a training Captain means F^%K all.
If I can make one comment about some of "the "training captains" in the company I work for.
Absolutely unbelieveable.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[remoak]

Chimbu

Romeok...really? You need to fly with a few Brits to truly experience anal retention.

Surprised that you are unaware of the meaning of smilies. Ah well.

I did fly with Brits for 20 years. Some of the ex-RAF types can be a bit anal, but nothing compared to some of the arrogant bastards I had to deal with from the colonies. Well, one colony in particular.

I suppose most of them were 89'ers, which, depending on your viewpoint, explains everything. Or not.

The Brits, for all their faults, are far more pragmatic about aviation matters than Australasians (yes, I include my fellow Kiwis). They hire on the basis of qualification, not on the basis of arse-licking ability. Many, many colonials have got the break in Europe that they would never have had back home.

I know who I would choose (and that isn't easy to say, trust me!)

[Capt Fathom]

I have being flying multi crew for several thousand hours now and I am just not sure how to deal with certain captains.

I have being flying multi crew for several thousand hours now and I am just not sure how to deal with certain insert rank here!.

If it doesn't pose a safety risk, just grin and bear it. As you mentioned, it will help to mould you into the captain you will become.

Everyone is different, and some crew are easier to fly with than others. Some days will be good, some not so good. It's just part of the job.

[Arm out the window]

JC, my initial impression on reading your post was 'Jeez, this guy sounds like he worries too much'.
Are you confident in your own ability and knowledge of procedures? If so, stand up for yourself confidently, whilst maintaining a respectful manner, when these issues come up.
If it's just a question of personal preference or style, defer to the Captain if you're comfortable doing that, or express your disagreement, again respectfully, if you're not.
Have you discussed this kind of thing with your peers? Do they find the same issues arise with the same guys? If so, it can be a relief to find 'it's not just me.' If not, perhaps you're being overly sensitive and need to find a way of not taking things so personally.
Apologies if I've misinterpreted your comments.

[GUARD]

I hear where you're coming from John.

We have some 24 Karat Dickheads in our company as well. Everyone knows who they are and other captains try to hose you down by telling you to find comfort in the fact that you'll have a command soon etc etc. But they don't fly with them.

For myself, 99% of the time I just want to go to work and fly the aeroplane and have a bit of a chat. I might have troubles at home or didn't sleep well or any number of things going on and what I don't need is some self-proclaimed " expert " giving me all his knowledge about the flare just because I slammed one on out of 10 other greasers the week before. Or the SOP changes that I must have mis-read ( along with everyone else in the company ).

I was overnighting the other night and the Captain was in the front seat of the cab and myself and the flighties were in the back. The driver had his window open and our Captain asked the flighties if that breeze was bothering them!!!!

You blokes know who you are and I've got some advice for you.....JUST KEEP YOUR BIG NOSE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS and try to improve your own standards or get into checking otherwise F@#$ Off.

GUARD:ok:

[Capt Claret]

Capt Fathom hit the nail on the head with, insert rank here!.

When I were a Effo we used to grumble about captains, 'n how they all did it different.

Now I are a Captain, we grumble about Effos and how they all do it different. :8

[John Citizen]

I am only flying the way I have been trained, by a training captain.

Its these line captains who are teaching me new and different things - things still within the confines of the SOPs but maybe just a little bit different. At the end of the day, neither techniques matter.

I just believe some captains have to put you down no matter what you to do. They are self proclaimed egotistical experts who want to show how good and smart they are and how much they think you don't know.

Why should I change my flying technique every day just to suit the captain I fly with ?

[Hugh Jarse]

GUARD,

Thanks for letting me know. I'll try to be more considerate in the future :E ;)

Your controls :}

[Keg]

Geez, several thousand hours means about three or four years and you still haven't worked out when to nod and say 'yessir', 'great advice skipper, I'll give that a shot next time', 'no I never thought of that', 'I don't know that I can do it that way' and finally 'nah, I'm not that good'? :} :E

Seriously though, if it's a method that's allowed by SOP then be prepared to give it a shot. There is no SOP to cover every situation.

[dodgybrothers]

'great landing captain, my shout and I'll take the fat one.' Just improves life a little for FOs!

[Capn Bloggs]

"I'm the Captain, you're the Resource, and I'll Manage you any way I like, sonny!" Isn't that right Claret?!:}

From Uncle Brian's Yuckspeak library of 1,000,000:

First Officer = voice-activated autopilot.

[woftam]

CRM= Captain Remains Master !!!
:)
BTW,It's a joke Joyce.;)

[dodgybrothers]

oh Bloggsy, I'd wondered where you'd been lately. Thought you might have been helping that CP of yours try to pass his CTL. Oh well, better luck next time.

[haughtney1]

The Brits, for all their faults, are far more pragmatic about aviation matters than Australasians (yes, I include my fellow Kiwis). They hire on the basis of qualification, not on the basis of arse-licking ability.

Regrettably Remoak old son, I have to agree with you:ugh:

Difficult Captains can be dealt with in a number of ways.....

Here are a couple of techniques I have used on ex mil, or big airways drivers..

"Is that right? are you sure? are you reaaaaaaaaaaaalllY sure?!

"Oh ok............but thats not what Mr Boeing test pilot says"

"I thought this was my sector"

"Trust me, I can almost walk unaided:E "

Or for after the flight.....in the Bar

"do that again and I'll knock you effin block off....CVR or no CVR"

"I don't care if you've got 5000hrs command in a saab340 flyin around ulllleroooo, your still an arrogant tw@t"

Just a few that may or may not help, all have worked to varying degrees for me:ok:

[OBNO]

"Thanks for that Capt- but I'm now a little confused - can you please confirm is that a technique or company procedure"

[Capn Bloggs]

CRM= Captain Remains Master !!!
"You may think this is a committee, Bloggs, but it is a dictatorship, and I'm the dictator. Understand?" :ok:

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Do many captains expect to be addressed as captain?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

When the Captain gives me stupid advice I just tell him to "shut the f*ck up"!

I use the sample approach with an idiot F/O!

They get such a shock at my attitude that I always seem to get away with it.

But then again - I fly single pilot!

FTDK:cool:

[J430]

Its a Democracy..........

So I looked up the dictionary and here a few examples

1. Democracy: be reasonable and do it my way!:}
2. Democracy: its your democratic right to do exactly as I say;)

or

Rule No.1 The Captain is always right
Rule No. 2 If in doubt refer rule No. 1

all jokes really:ok:

J:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Bloggsie I thought it was "I am the captain, you're the resource, prepare to be managed":}

haughty in a previous life where we actually had old style captains who would occassionally suggest the most bizarre departures from basic airmanship, let alone SOP, my response was usually "You wanna do what?" followed by "And just what the **** do you think I will doing while you try that?"

The classic example was a captain who decided that the next sector, nominally my sector, was his because he "may have to bust the minima to get in"...this was in an RPT jet. The conversation went like this;

"Yeah?"

"Yes...to get the job done"

"Well I'll just pop into ops and get them to send out a dumber/braver FO then"

"You wouldn't do that...would you?"

"In a fecking heart beat!!!" (my exact words)

"But we have to keep the show on the road"

"XYZ I will call minima and if you're not visual you will go around...if you do not the very next words you will hear will be "I have control"...am I being fairly clear?"

"Umm...ok your sector"

There wasn't a cloud in the sky at the destination.:ugh:

A couple of years later that individual was going to be demoted but 'retired' instead...last I heard he is drinking himself to death (literally)...even in those days he was an advanced alcoholic. It is important to note that I didn't get hysterical or raise my voice...I just made, and maintained, eye contact and calmly told him what I would do. We even remained 'friends' afterwards...or more accurately socially civil....certainly I had earned his respect...that doesn't mean he was just testing me, he really would have done it with a less assertive FO....he had tried the exact same thing with a previous FO who had subsequently become a captain. There were good reasons for his subsequent demotion...a LONG list of similarly stupid actions and threatened behaviour that eventually led me and others to go into print on the guy...and thankfully management listened.

The above is an extreme example of a bad captain...I doubt you'd ever see it's like in this day and age but it is possible in some third world airlines (which this one was). The reason I had the respect of the captains I flew with was because I didn't sweat the little things...but there was a point I would not pass.

All airlines are 'captain's airlines'...that means you will virtually never win over a captain even if he is wrong...live with it, or leave.

After I had written my report years later after an even more bizarre departure from SOPs airborne, again totally unemotionally, I bumped into the Fleet manager (a good guy) and said "Oh I have that report, you want it now?"

"No" and a pained look.

"No problems if you want I will destroy it"

"Yeah?"

"Yup, easy....it's completely up to you...do nothing if you like....but one day you'll get a phone call from me at some far flung outport asking to be replaced...and I will absolutely not be talked into 'just bringing the aircraft home'...the jet will stay parked until you send another pilot."

He took the report and took action...I subsequently learned that a handfull of other FOs went into print when they heard I had...and I also subsequenty learned from within the C&Ting establishment that I had earned great respect from the Fleet manager.

[remoak]

Had a similar experience with an ex-RAF fast jet guy that ended up as IRE/TRE on the Jetstream 31. We used to do base checks on the aircraft, two at a time. After my check, I got out of my (RH) seat to change with the other guy, and felt an odd sensation... turned around to see the horizon rotating in the windshield with the green bits at the top! Asked the trainer what the @#&^ he thought he was doing... "aileron rolls old chap. Perfectly safe..."

Got back on the ground and did some investigating. Turned out that this was a common occurence with this guy, but all the F/Os were so scared of losing their jobs that nobody would say anything. I thought that I should, but before I got the chance, the decision was taken away from me (thankfully). Turns out our hero had gone slightly negative G during a roll, and had emptied the contents of the toilet all over the cabin ceiling whilst inverted. Engineers saw the blue tidemark and dobbed him in, and we all had to go and testify at his disciplinary. The fleet was grounded for spar checks.

That guy lost his job, but was back training within a year (on BAC 1-11s).

[flyhardmo]

Chimbu Chuckles probably has the best advice..
Quite possibly some advice coming from a captain might be constructive critism and maybe you should have a go, it might actually improve on some aspects of your flying.
If you believe the advice is just an excuse to break balls then memorise some of chuckles tecniques to blow off the attack.

[haughtney1]

I should add for balance that my last two comments were directed at the same guy..on/after the same flight:E

Interestingly enough...this same guy has recently (in the last 6 months) been demoted from a certain Mid East carrier...and faces the sack:D

99.9% of the guys in the left seat I fly with are pure gentlemen to fly with.

[pakeha-boy]

.......every airline needs a ..."NO FLY LIST":D .....

....a required evil ,for all pilot contracts......:E

....its all about SAFETY!!!:ok: