perth qantas engineering

[hannibal lector]

all is very quiet over there whats going on??

[Skystar320]

They do there work, we get on with operations..........

It runs smoothly

[chockchucker]

Looks like things in Perth may be about to come to a head for the LAME's. I wish them all the best but, despite the union's best intentions, they should tread carefully here if the following article is to be believed.





ABC Online

Qantas takes legal action against aircraft engineer union. 22/03/2007. ABC News Online

[This is the print version of story http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200703/s1879224.htm]


Last Update: Thursday, March 22, 2007. 9:05pm (AEDT)
Qantas takes legal action against aircraft engineer union
Qantas is taking legal action against the union representing flight engineers at Perth airport in a dispute over safe working conditions.

Qantas says the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association is acting illegally by telling its 80 Perth members to work in pairs rather than alone.

The association says it took the action because a change in roster has caused a shortage of engineers on each shift, leaving no one to answer emergency calls if there is an accident on the tarmac.

The Association's federal secretary, Stephen Purvinas, says the safety of its members is at risk.

"Quite often we see broken legs and so on, if someone slips over, we really need that emergency channel there in case one of our members is in that situation," he said.

The two parties will appear at the Federal Industrial Relations Commission tomorrow.

[1DC]

If this is real then no wonder your jobs get outsourced. This stuff went out with the ark.........

[Bumpfoh]

Put yourself in their shoes old mate and you might have a completely different perspective.
Their local manager presents himself as nothing short of a boofhead and has been recently in all sorts of strife with the company and the troops for behavioural faux pas'.:eek:
Secondly the General Manager who openly admits he has very little appreciation of the operational details of the areas he manages and "does not need to have one" is passing judgement and imposing rostering arrangements on the guys purely just to make the bottom line (read achieve his bonus) look better at the detriment of not only the working conditions and morale of the PER engineers but ultimately the entire Line Maintenance operation around the country, with PER being used a the "test case" or thin end of the wedge so to speak for him to achieve his ultimate goal (re-read achieve his bonus). :yuk:

This guy has a strong recent history of outsourcing for no great benefit to the company (take Jet Turbine Services for example)!!!:D

I'm sure you pilot typies would be up in arms if you had this sort ****e being rammed down your throats with little assistance from the current workplace regulations.:ok:

[1DC]

Bumpfoh this kind of action only highlights the old fashioned militancy which sets most of the public against you and helps the management's case.Much better to fight them with the facts..

[Dash1]

What do Jetstar bill QF Perth for turnarounds re engineering, baggage, check in etc? Observed 8 ground crew "SERVICING" an A320 on a stand off bay during our turnaround whilst parked on bay 14. One of eight wearing a Jetstar uniform.

[fantasyland]

Re: 'the old fashioned militancy which sets most of the public against you and helps the management's case.'

and 'THey will catch up with the rest of Australia eventually.'

I think we will see what most of the public thinks about old fashioned militancy when the federal election is held. Maybe it will indicate that it's the rest of Australia that needs to catch up with the port of Perth...

[BHMvictim]

Ahhhhh we have some white collar trolls in this thread.

The blokes in Perth want a fair go.

Qantas managment currently have a policy of shafting their employees through inapropriate rostering T&C's. Absolutely NO consideration given to employees personal lives whatsoever. It all comes down to saving every last dollar they can by avoiding shift penalties, allowances etc. Not fair. (Considering the obscene renumeration that Dixon & Co. keep recieving, not to mention the bonuses managers recieve for implimenting the above).

If Managment won't play fair, what are the employees to do?? Roll over and take it?? No. They take the action you see in Perth.


"We want a return to old fashioned militancy in the labour market"

You got that part of the quote right. Qantas are being quite militant towards their employees, however it is the Liberal party that has seen to this happening.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Point0Five]

Ahhhhh we have some white collar trolls in this thread.

Pilots are blue collar labour?

[BHMvictim]

LAMEs wear white shirts, as do pilots.

I suppose "Blue collar" refers to someone that actually does something productive, so yes, I guess pilots in a sense are blue collar.

[numbskull]

Pilots like to think of themselves as skygods but really they are just part of the hired help the same as LAMES, Hosties, bagchuckers and everyone else(they just get paid more, and rightly so!!)

But definately blue collar!!

Just to keep this post on track- How would a pilot like it if when he made a radio call there was no one there to answer him or be available for emergency support??

Maybe down the track QF cost cutting could include only having 2 pilot crews for long haul flights and only 1 pilot on the flight deck during cruise (not much really happens anyway, really...................c'mon be honest).

I don't seriously advocate this but it is something people should consider before they vilify LAMES working one out on the tarmac trying to keep old aeroplanes flying to a very tight schedule with very little in the way of support.

Maybe, just maybe, you might consider the option of working in pairs until you were confident that if you needed some emergency support for yourself (or the aircraft) that it would be available with a simple radio call.

[No SAR No Details]

I thought the action in Perth was safety related.

[BHMvictim]

So why would you say on the other thread:

Quote:
"Thanks for the tip. I will, however, continue to travel up the pointy end with all the wite collars with their worldly outlook on life.... though personaly, I will stick to being polite to the flight attendant!"

You think of Pilots of white collar workers. Which do you really think, WHITE or BLUE.

uhhhhh because as far as I know, not everyone that flies Business class is a pilot.

Pilots are productive, so they are blue collar. A white collar worker doesn't really do any physically orientated work, rather, they facilitate blue collars.

The fact of the matter here, aside from all that, is that employees are fed up with being pushed around by militant management. Qantas keeps crying poor when in fact, they are doing quite well thank you very much. First 9/11, then SARS, then oil prices. Qantas excelled whilst other airlines fell. Staff took a pay freeze. It was not JUST Dixon that got us through the "hard times", it was every employee.

So it is an insult to employees when they are being bullied and pushed around harder than ever, whilst those at the top pat themselves on the back with wads of $100 notes.

Is it justified? Depends on the shirt you wear! White or blue. (metaphorically speaking).

Employees are fed up. They are leaving at a rate higher than ever. Will this hurt Qantas? Probably not. All the more justification to ship jobs overseas. When there is nobody left to fill the vacancies, they will pull out the old sob story

"We just can't attract people to the industry".

Correct.... you can't attract half decent employees if you are not willing to pay them fairly and look after them.

Simple as that.

If you wear a "blue shirt", it's bad news. If you wear a "white shirt", here comes another bonus!

[No SAR No Details]

Sooooo, is it a safety issue or not?

[BHMvictim]

As far as I can see... yes. it's a safety issue.

.... and we all know safety is the number one priority at Qantas. I can't understand why any manager would have a problem with this.

[donagin]

NO SAR NO DEATAIL NO BRAINS OF COURSE IT'S A SAFETY ISSUE, AN ENGINEER WORKING ON HIS OWN WITH NO RADIO BACKUP DUE TO COMPANY CUTBACKS.wORKING ALONE WITH 200 TONS OF AEROPLANE, 3000 PSI OF HYDRAULICS, AND VOLUMES OF PNEUMATICS AND FUEL IS DANGEROUS. i ASSSUME YOU'RE ARE A PILOT?
I NEVER SEE YOU GUYS WORKING ALONE, YOU CAN'T EVEN MAKE IT TO THE AEROPLANE ON TIME WITHOUTHALF THE COMPANY HELPING TO GET YOU THERE.

[BHMvictim]

I really don't see how this is turning into a battle between pilots and engineers.

The above post would make sense was it not for the dig at pilots! They are being bullied just as much as the rest of us.

[Bumpfoh]

Precisely my point old mate.:ok: :ok:

[No SAR No Details]

No not a pilot. My aim was to drag the thread back to reality and show that it is not industrial action aimed at bringing down the government or Qantas.
It is not about what colour shirt you wear. It is about safety.
I think I succeeded, almost.

[yachtno1]

A "Health and Safety issue" as we would say in Pomland ..:)

[I'm Driving]

"i ASSSUME YOU'RE ARE A PILOT?
I NEVER SEE YOU GUYS WORKING ALONE, YOU CAN'T EVEN MAKE IT TO THE AEROPLANE ON TIME WITHOUTHALF THE COMPANY HELPING TO GET YOU THERE."
Huh! As a pilot, I am curious as to what this statement means? I walk through the terminal, and I walk on to the aircraft. Nobody escorts me, nobody pulls any strings for me, I line up at security, just like everyone else. I'm would not despute that there are lots of people helping me get the aircraft away on time, but nobody helps me get to the aircraft. Maybe your words were wrong, but mate, what have you got against pilots?

[donagin]

Apology to all, that was my first reply, and not proud of it.
No Sar No details somehow pressed my button with his "Soooo is it a safety issue" , and now all of a sudden he seems to agree that it is ? ? ? ?
In the passed 6 months we have had several serious injuries to engineers working alone on the ramp, it is a very dangerous work environment.
In over 20 years of turnarounds overall I find pilots very ignorant to what goes on b4 they get to the aircraft, hence my comment to No Sars that he must be a pilot. Apologies to all for that comment.

[No SAR No Details]

Donagin, you need to put my post into context.

[donagin]

What is it you don't understand No Sars?

[No SAR No Details]

It's not me that doesn't understand.
The issue IS about safety.
Other posters dragged it into being an industrial dispute.
Others then tried to seperate it into white collar/blue collar debate.
I then put it back on the agenda as being a safety issue.
YOU then took the wrong end of the stick and gave it a good shake.
That is why I said put my post into context.

[blow.n.gasket]

I thought the new corporate mission statement at Qantas was
"Profitability ,before Safety, before Schedule!":ok:

[donagin]

G'day No SARS
I think we all know there is a lot going on in Perth, and safety is just one issue, and a very important one at that.
Brgds

[Angle of Attack]

I dont have a collar let alone a coloured collar, I think its pathetic...
I am a pilot in QF and I really believe there is a problem with idiots srewing their hard workers down to the minimum, No matter what anyone thinks, Engineers are the backbone of QF, yeah I might be a shin bone but hey thats not going to support all the weight?? Engineers are the backbone, lets face it, its a fact. I am very concerned about the dramas with the engineering staff, after all they are what makes QF such a safe airline. I am really concerned when issues such as this come up. PH engineers should voice their right, especially when safety is an issue! :ok:

[donagin]

Well said A of A QF Engineering is run by accountants who have no idea about aircraft maintenance. They are all just bean counters who have cut the guts out of engineering.
If there was an alternative MRO in Oz QF would be losing engineers in droves.
We all try to be professional, but nobody gives a sh#t anymore. Morale is thru the floor.
As is the case with most departments we have endured years of EBA's that don't keep up with the CPI, while QF wastes millions on Strategy maps, Part Smart and eQ computer programs which are all dismal failures.
Engineering management have no ideas so they ask the troops to self shaft themselves, and when they refuse you get what has happened in Perth and now Melbourne.
God help us all

[No SAR No Details]

And apparently the Sydney precinct review is going to be scrapped.
How much did it cost to get the consultants in from england to oversee that project?

[Syd eng]

Really, scrapped. Heard only last week that redundancies were to be offered in April to get 200 LAME's to go for the merging etc. to happen.

[numbskull]

That's a co incidence!!

Yesterday I got an email from resume.domain who were advertising for "Heavy Jet LAMES" around December 2007.

The reply was:

" Re your application for the Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer roles.

Our client has advised us that at this stage their contract has been postponed indefinately, should these circumstances change we will be sure to be in touch.

Thank you for application and your patience, we trust and hope that you understand that this is beyond our control. "

It looks like QF LAMES get a reprieve until they can concoct their next cost cutting masterplan.

Good luck all!!

[hannibal lector]

I say give them nothing. Don't negotiate. Let the so called expert management sort everything out. We all know they aren't worth a pinch of :mad: ****:mad: They have no idea and are hopong engineers will sort it out as they always do. It's time they took responsibility for there actions and fall on there swords. If 'M' and 'D.C.' think they can := fcuk with the engineering grouop they have another thing coming. Will c u :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[fantasyland]

I have heard about the roster issues going on in Perth and Melbourne and I extend my thanks to the LAMEs there for sticking to their guns. I hope some genuine negotiation will result from your efforts.

Could someone provide further information about the Sydney precinct review? I have not heard about it before.

Thanks

[domo]

these layoffs will they be forced i cant see them getting 200 to leave after the last redunancy was less than a year ago

[Managers Perspective]

Is the QF engineer the only person on duty at the 24 hour airport, surely not.

Are we saying that only another QF engineer contactable by radio can come to assist in case of emergency, surely not.

Why not give the engineer a mobile phone instead of a radio?

There must be a stack of appropriate people to contact in case of emergency, including the 24 hour Rescue Fire Fighting Service.

Jeepers this works in small ports, what is different about Perth?

Seems a no-brainer to me.

Or is it just another attempt to squawk safety during a reform process??????

[mahatmacoat]

Why not give the engineer a mobile phone instead of a radio?

Because any PED (portable electronic device) needs to be intrinsically safe in accordance with Australian safety standards. Mobile phones are not. If you drop one and the battery falls off on the concrete tarmac, a spark could occur igniting fuel vapours which tend to hang around the vents at the end of the wings. This would tend to cause an explosion that could lead to the deaths of hundreds of people.

I thought this would be a no brainer but then again as most managers are now accountants it may be a little difficult to work out.



Are we saying that only another QF engineer contactable by radio can come to assist in case of emergency, surely not.

If an emergency occurs Qantas procedures need to be followed. The procedures are for the DMM to respond to the appropriate emergency service as outlined in his office on emergency response cards. If it is left to anyone to respond then other depts and engineers may just assume that someone else will get it.

I would think it a no brainer that Qantas procedures need to be followed in case of emergency but then again accountants sit in offices. FYI - If you get a paper cut please follow procedure and contact your on duty first aider.



Or is it just another attempt to squawk safety during a reform process??????

It is an attempt to bypass safety during a reform process. A process driven by pen pushers and other odd balls to cut costs and reduce safety. A process driven by a Qantas management team littered with ex Ansett managers applying the same principles that destroyed Ansett. A process that is being rejected by Perth engineers for the benefit of all engineers in Australia and the safety record of the airline but thank you for your perspective. It gives us an insight into the ignorance we are dealing with.

[radiation junkie]

Right to the point. These are the incursions to the safety and work procedures that the "bonus" driven management are slowly feeding into the system. They may sound trivial to the uneducated or ignorant, but where does it stop. Do we wait for the disaster to happen, or ensure the safety of Qantas employees and the flying public is held as a priority. All part of the grand scheme to cheapen Qantas and ensure managment get their bonus, which unfortunately filters right down to the lowest KPI driven office bunny with clipboard and calculator skills. It's GD's favourite message, "You do not meet cost of capital".

[QF22]

It's a bit hard to use a radio or a mobile if your alone, injured ,and unconscious on the tarmac.Hence the need to work in pairs, we wouldn't want an LTI would we, coz safety is our priority.
It is my experience of late that all staff are out of the office and spread thinly around the ramp, even the senior is out of the office just to make things work.
Stick to shuffling papers!

[rudderless1]

Latest mgt technique, move lips, block ears, shut eyes, place wheels on goal posts and save face at all costs because the only sad hope now is the millions being squandered in screwing your staff for no benefit can be hidden if they break first.

Considering supervision is inadequate and leave is unable to be taken due manpower shortage and delays are thru the roof due shift How long can it last? The clock is ticking M. How much of the $42mil has been saved?

Is M is short for mmmmmmmmm I should not have done that!?:ugh:

[Syd eng]

Is it true the apprentices that were given Perth Jobs have now resigned to work in the mining industry? Less than a week after starting in Perth.

[rammel]

A little off topic, but a similar thing (QF management screwing the workers). MEL ramp is not working much OT at the moment and the operation, especially at the end of the day 0100+ is lucky to be running at the moment. Overnight aircraft left with stuff left on board, not sure about bags though. Customer airlines not happy, the list goes on.

Management are trying to say that this is union organised, of which I don't know as I'm no longer there. But my come back to that is, that if the section relies on a considerably large amount of OT to operate normally. I heard a figure of 350-380hrs average (I would believe it from experience) OT for each Ramp staff member so far this financial year. It is not the workers fault, that is a management problem of their own making.

So it sounds like over Easter will be an interesting time in MEL and network wide. On a positive note for QF management, the OT bill has come down.

[Point0Five]

Why not give the engineer a mobile phone instead of a radio?
Because any PED (portable electronic device) needs to be intrinsically safe in accordance with Australian safety standards. Mobile phones are not. If you drop one and the battery falls off on the concrete tarmac, a spark could occur igniting fuel vapours which tend to hang around the vents at the end of the wings. This would tend to cause an explosion that could lead to the deaths of hundreds of people.
I thought this would be a no brainer but then again as most managers are now accountants it may be a little difficult to work out.

That is so true, why only just the other day I saw a 747 explode because of such an occurance. :hmm:
Of course, if this was really an issue we wouldn't be driving tow motors and the like around aircraft, what with all the sparks and combustion that go on in an engine!

[mahatmacoat]

That is so true, why only just the other day I saw a 747 explode because of such an occurance.

Ahh ignorance in its true form. You can't use mobiles on the tarmac for this very reason. Why don't you try it, stand right under the wing vent as an aircraft is being refueled on a windy 40 degree day just to see what happens. Take the battery on and off until you get a small spark. Test it out and see if you can break procedures put in place by Boeing, maybe your smarter than their design engineers, the Qantas accountants think they are.

While you are at it why not see if you can test some of their other procedures. Why not disable the cargo fire bottles, start a fire in the compartment at thirty thousand feet and see if you can land. Maybe you can do it once and then have all fire bottles removed from all aircraft to save a little more money.




Of course, if this was really an issue we wouldn't be driving tow motors and the like around aircraft, what with all the sparks and combustion that go on in an engine!

The tow motors are designed so they can't produce any ignition source. The sparks and combustion are contained in a special compartment that engineers call an engine. You may have heard of it or you could google it to find out a bit more.

[Kiwiconehead]

Ahh ignorance in its true form. You can't use mobiles on the tarmac for this very reason. Why don't you try it, stand right under the wing vent as an aircraft is being refueled on a windy 40 degree day just to see what happens. Take the battery on and off until you get a small spark.
The radios have batteries too - so how do they not spark? They are just commercial Motorola units.

[Point0Five]

Thanks mahatmacoat, as an experienced Design Engineer myself, I'll stand by my initial comments.

On a slightly different angle, if mobile phones are so dangerous, perhaps you can explain why PAX are allowed to take their mobile phones on board and are trusted to turn them off, lest the plance explode, yet anything more than 100 millilitres of liquid is a terrorist threat?

[PitPin]

The fact is that Qantas Lames have follow the procedures set by the company . :ugh: No matter how frustrating or unworkable they maybe !
Safety First at Qantas :yuk:

[Managers Perspective]

No need to Google it, the requirements for operation of an Australian registered aircraft that is operating in Australian Territory are published with CASA CAO 20.9.

As you will note within Appendix 1 of CAO, the requirement relates to a 15 metre perimeter around fuelling and venting points during fuelling operations.

It really is a carry over of a old requirement when aircraft were primarily using wide cut fuels, DC3's etc, but none the less it remains a regulatory requirement today and must be complied with whether we agree with it or not. Some excemptions ahve been sought and granted but unlikely for your ops.

Reality is that the fuel truck parked near the vent needs only to have it's normal wiring to "good automotive design", so one of the greatest risks is when the driver opens his fuel truck door and the interior light switch activates. As minor risk as it is, this truck is one your greatest risks in the work area during fuelling ops, along with other ramp equipment as mentioned earlier by others.

My earlier comments about use of a mobile phone were in relation to an engineer being required to perform maintenance "on his own", I hadn't considered that you guys were relating to fuelling etc (when there are many people in the same work area). My error.

Not sure what a DMM is in the QF structure (Dept Maint Mgr??), or what the current procedures require, but it all sounds well out of date and well behind modern operations at gate. Sad but true........

Hope you guys come through your changes OK, but from reading these threads it seems you are clinging on to fairly weak arguments. You really need to demonstrate the employee numbers through an accurate account of the daily defect occurences and an accurate account of the ports transit demands (actuals not assumptions or views).

These figures cannot be challenged by your management teams, chart out your transit clashes and highlight the significant drift from schedule that Perth experiences on incoming flights from the East. Demonstrate the defect rectification times and detail the delays prevented due to current engineer numbers.

Despatch reliability is a primary driver today, more so than managers bonusses I bet (well assume as I am not privvy to QF terms).

Good luck.

- M.P.

http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/Cao20/2009.pdf

[domo]

The radios have batteries too - so how do they not spark? They are just commercial Motorola units.
if you done the radio famil course you would havw been told that the green sticker on the radio and battery meant that they are safe to use near aircraft
how do you know that they are comerical and not special editions
do you want me to post you the model number or would you like an invoice
On a slightly different angle, if mobile phones are so dangerous, perhaps you can explain why PAX are allowed to take their mobile phones on board and are trusted to turn them off, lest the plance explode, yet anything more than 100 millilitres of liquid is a terrorist threat?
I wasnt aware fuel vented in to the cabin what do you design barbie dolls?
(apoligies to any real barbie designers)

[NAS1801]

Are you really a conehead? The motorola units are designed to be intrinsically safe. They are expensive. Qantas uses them. Qantas are tightarses when it comes to buying things. If they COULD use a cheaper alternative, they would.

[Bolty McBolt]

This thread seems to have degenerated into a debate about communication devices. WHY ?
Example….
In OZ approx 300 people die each year just falling off a ladder, now if no one is there to see you fall and you are unconscious ,it would not matter what kind of radio or mobile you used, even if you had telepathic powers you would be able to get help because you are unconscious!
Once unconscious immediate first aide is what is required. Properly administered first aid saves lives and can prevent many complications (medically) this is the issue.
I think this is why the Perth are insisting on not working alone...a safety issue and rightly or wrongly it is being used as an industrial tool and probably the only one available to them.
From what I know about the Perth issue all the problems stem from the attitude of the Perth manager. His communication skills are non existent he just uses bullying technique to get his way. Then M comes over from Sydney with his dismissive style and arrogance. I know a few guys were thinking they may have to accept the extended hour roster on offer but after hearing the big M speak it only hardened their resolve.
An alternate roster has been offered to the company by the guys in Perth that has correct coverage has much lower penalties (within 1 % of company roster cost) but the company has refused to look at it.
This is about egos of managers trying to enforce their way rather than use the experience they have on the floor to get a solution to their problem.
Problem is, there is no communication. Just arrogance from managers whom have very little operational experience.
Radios and sparks..
The Motorola radios in SYD are intrinsically safe, same as those used in mining. There are gas seals around the battery contacts so any sparking is contained when the battery is disconnected. Look for the green dot on the radio.

[QF22]

Thanx for getting this thread back on track, everything you said is spot on.

[No SAR No Details]

The solution is simple. The Qantas board have to realise that DCox has let loose a maniac to completely eff up Qantas engineering line stations. They both have to be held accountable and sacked.
Then peace will return and the planes will be serviced on time in a safe manner by happy engineers and the world will be a good place to live.
Murray you're a twit.

[fordran]

Today at SIT they were looking for scabs to go to Perth for the weekend. Everyone walked out of the meeting with a big up yours. ALAEA notice refers

http://www.alaea.asn.au/CMS/plainText/Notices/files/030407_ACS%20Rostering%20Update.pdf

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Rumour I heard doing the rounds at Sydney today was that Perth guys were about to cave in and accept the 10.9 hour roster. Mr Harris will be most pleased if that happens. If they do fold who will be the next in his sights?

[mahatmacoat]

Don't know who you are speaking to bung eye but there will never be a 10.9 hour shift in Perth. 8 hour is coming to Melbourne too if M has the balls. It will cost him his job though.

[fantasyland]

I have heard that the DMMs in Perth are working 12 hour shifts.
How can this be if QF has withdrawn from the 12 hour shift agreement?
I believe all the other LAME's are working 8 hour shifts in the absence of any extended hours shift agreement, so why not the DMMs too?

I believe Commissioner Rafaelli of the AIRC has even made orders that everyone there must work the 8 hour shift. Could the DMMs that are working 12 hour shifts be in defiance of the AIRC orders and be considered to be taking industrial action? What does the "Work Choices" legislation say about this?

Could anyone shed light on this situation?

[No SAR No Details]

If the DMM's are taking "industrial action" by working the 12 hr who cops the fine, ALAEA or QF?

[fantasyland]

If it is QF that is directing its DMMs to work 12 hour shifts when no extended hours agreement exists, I would think that it would be QF that should be copping any fines. Or at least the AIRC should make orders that QF must not direct any of its staff to work in contravention of the existing agreements.

My point is that since QF withdrew from the extended hours shift agreement, there is now no current extended hours agreement in place. When there is no extended hours agreement in place, all staff affected must work 8 hour shifts until a mutually agreeable extended hours agreement is made. QF should not be able pick and choose who continues to work 12 hours and who should have to work 8 hours.

Is there any benefit to QF by them directing DMMs to work 12 hour shifts?

[company_spy]

Is there any benefit to QF by them directing DMMs to work 12 hour shifts?

There is purely for coverage, not enough of them in the pool to cover an 8hr roster, also reason some DMMs being bussed in occasionaly to cover.

[fantasyland]

Well, I guess the solution is for QF to make up more permanent DMMs to enable them to work the 8 hour shift. That would solve the problem of QF being in contravention of the existing agreements due to directing current DMMs to work 12 hour shifts (when no current extended hours shift agreement is in place).

An alternative would be to make up some extra acting DMMs to cover the 8 hour shift until such times as an extended hours shift agreement is made that satifies both parties.

Does QF even want to make an extended hours shift agreement, or are they happy with the operation running on an 8 hour shift?

[EPR1.31]

Good on all of you at SIT for sticking to your guns!!!! Unfortunately shake a tree and scabs always seem to drop out. There are 2 DMM's over at the moment from the harbour city as well as a 2 kids trying to fix a fuel leak!!!! BRAVO boys thanks for the assistance!!!

[Bolty McBolt]

Ok 4 DMMs are on a 12 hour roster with no agreement in place.

I have heard that 2 of these DMMs are quite happy to tow the company line while the other 2 are doing as they are told.
Not wanting to go directly against a company directive and perhaps not knowing where they stand. What ever their reason it has ramifications.

If I felt I was being forced to work a shift outside an award or agreement I would want it in writing. Perhaps an email asking clarification directed at all the managers concerned, The union Fed Ex, HR manager of the area and his boss.
If this is put in writing its needs to state reasons, which may or may not stand the test of scrutiny.

If guys at any level start working an extended hour shift pattern that is by way of a directive, management will believe an agreement to work an extended hour shift is not required which will make the whole Perth arguement null and void. :yuk:

[Bolty McBolt]

EPR1.31
If you are going use the scab word, how about you apply it to your own DMMs whom are working outside an agreement. Re my above post.

The guys fixing a fuel leak. I have no idea the details but to have to fly someone over from the east to do maintenance is a win for the Perth guys. Proves the roster you are on has no room for adhoc work.
I am sure some would prefer they not go over (I would not) but to park aircraft on the ground when there is no industrial campaign and when the company has repeatly accused the ALAEA of such it may play into M hands if aircraft are down.

Need to think and work smart

[Redstone]

I would tend to agree with Mr Bolt re sending engineers across the continent to cover for a flawed roster. As long as these blokes are not carrying out reciept/dispatch duties, it just proves that the current roster does not work. This is something that should stand up and shout at not only Big M but his superiors as well.

I think however that we need to understand that the position of Duty Maintenance Manager (DMM) is a management roll and save for a few individuals is an extension of the Big M's iron fist no matter where they are stationed. I would even doubt whether many of them are even members of the association any more, so by working a 12 hour roster they would definatly not perceive any conflict with the rest of the guys, they would not even aknowledge themselves in the same group, they are managers.

[EPR1.31]

Bolty
I undestand what you are saying but the only way any of this is going to change is M being pressured from above. The only way that's going to happen is DELAY'S. Anytime scabs come over or the local scabs patch things up it enables M to hide what goes on. As for the local DMM's VERY DISAPOINTING but 8hrs is looming for them too!!!

[Nepotisim]

as well as a 2 kids trying to fix a fuel leak!!!! BRAVO boys thanks for the assistance!!!
Does anyone in Perth have current confined space entry? Any recent fuel tank rectification experience either. This probably would have happened before the current situation. Nice first post EPR1.31. Get those emotions out.

[EPR1.31]

Hello Nepotism
To clarify the fuel leak was an engine fuel leak! Senior management (above M) only understand delays. I'm not advocating causing them but when a/c breakdown and there is no manpower to action the problem (because of a flawed roster) questions will be asked. If scabs fix the problem it enables M to hide the REAL truth.

[fantasyland]

Hello Redstone,

As I understand it, the DMM classification and associated conditions are covered by the ALAEA agreements/award. Is that correct?

If so:

Union membership is not compulsory, however, those DMMs that are not members are still covered and bound by the the abovementioned industrial instruments.

Therefore, regardless of whether a DMM is a member of the ALAEA, or if they regard themselves as 'management' , or even if they are, in fact, an extension of Big Ms(?) iron fist, they are obliged to work in accordance with the agreements in place.

If they are found to be doing otherwise, it would not be unreasonable to expect that the Australian Industrial Relations Commission should order them to work in accordance with the agreements in place.

Does the commission have any authority to fine individuals that continue to work contrary to their agreements or in defiance of AIRC orders?

Perhaps the DMM classification should be reviewed. Maybe it should no longer be covered by the ALAEA agreements. If some DMMs consider themselves to be management, perhaps they would be happier by severing all ties with the ALAEA and moving on to individual contracts?

What do you think?

[Managers Perspective]

I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA.

Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.

May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......

[fantasyland]

Hello Managers Perspective,

"May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......"

What 'facts' are you alluding to?

Your post seemed to be more focussed on supposition and personal opinion than on any basis in fact.

Furthermore, it would seem to me that QF are entirely happy with the current industrial arrangements they have with their employees at the moment. Even if the option was open to QF to move to AWA's, I am very doubtful (in my opinion) that they would take that avenue. EBA's generally provide everything that QF wants, especially since the workplace relations changes and work choices legislation has come through.

[No SAR No Details]

If QF wanted to change the DMMs positions would they have to declare the positions redundant and pay out the encumbents, or make them reapply for the new jobs?
That would sort out the men from the boys!
It would appear that the managers perspective is that all of the troops are bludgers. Maybe they dont understand all of the "goodwill" that has accumulated over the years.
When the "goodwill' runs out then, and only then will we see Muzza's brave new world take over.
Mean and hungry LAMEs willing to do what it takes to make a plane fly in the most economical ways possible to the detriment of the long term reliability of the fleet and the confidence of the flying public.

[Redstone]

Fantasyland, I think you are probably technicaly right, but as I said their perception is they are not part of the rank and file. In fact years ago the position was re-named/classified from maintenance co-ordinator to duty maintenance manager and it became a non technical position. The very use of the word "manager" in the title! They percieve themselves as being in a management role and therefore must tow the line. It will be interesting to see how the AIRC interpret.

[No SAR No Details]

Who signs the card packages off at the end of maintenance?

[Redstone]

Not the DMM if that's where you are leading.

[NAS1801]

In the true style of a typical manager you have left out an important piece of information. I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA. You neglected to mention that they are prepared to do a reasonable days work for an unreasonable days pay. Reduced penalties conditions etc. This is what managers and the four eyed parasite Howard conveniently neglect to mention.

[Managers Perspective]

Penalties also went out with the Ark, as did meal allowances and taxi vouchers etc.

Pay isn't an issue when you receive performance, have a look at leading AWA's and you will see very high rolled up salaries without all the crud hanging off them.

All that crud needs to be administered, much better share the efficiencies with the employee base.

Me thinks some of you guys need to look outside your bubble.

[The Mr Fixit]

First of all,
To all of Perth Line maint. thank you guys for sticking by your guns Bravo !!! :D those of lesser ilk fail to grasp your dedication to the preservation of safety for the flying public.

Scab is a detestable word but adequately describes the individuals who sh!t in their faces, I hope they are named and shamed for all to to see as they do not deserve to wallow in their blood money unknown to all.:=

99% of QF Engineering is behind you my west coast brothers and our new exec has shown they will not be pushed around by bully boys any longer.:ok:

The 1% that has no regard for the present or future of QF Engineering I hope you burn in hell with all your scab retard friends. :mad:

Only Base Maint. (Sydney Eng for the unitiated) is the breeding ground for such filth, these LAMEs only think of themselves and should be made examples of, the Foremen that are taking blood money have come from Base, DRW and BNE. To those bases deal with these pathetic individuals as required as you are being tarred with their brush and tar doesn't wash off.:eek:

One in particular from BNE showed his ineptness for correct maintenance when he despatched an aircraft with a Emerg. beacon assigned to another aircraft (the idiot was unaware of this) this is now being investigated by CASA and the ATSB as a major safety breech. Oh and by the way this will be the second time he has fallen foul of the authorities the last time was for falsifying CASA documents.;)

8 Hour roster - Bring it on in Melbourne they will teach them a lesson they will unlikely forget, the last time someone thought they were bigger than the machine he was left with anxiety attacks and a call centre job in Mumbai.:ouch:

Perth took the baton and ran with it straight into the gates of hell, Brave men who looked the Fat demon in the eye and spat in it. It is now time to pass it off to the dogs of war from the east and they will feast on the carcasses of the arrogant.

If the 8 hour comes to Melbourne, Heads will roll to be sure, to be sure:{

Be wary of the monster that lies within every decent man, once awakened it may never sleep again.:E

[shaftedagain]

Let's take a minute to set a few things straight. Firstly this is about the bottom line, saving dollars, $42 million to be precise, not what's best for the workforce, 'M' is only interested in a 10.9 hour shift in Perth, as this will eliminate the rostered overtime payment, reduce shift penalties by 8% and remove the flexible 'Z' day. Although a working group was agreed upon to develop alternate rosters and in fact presented a superior 12 hour shift, that delivered on cost savings, manpower requirements and license coverage, this has been rejected outright by 'M', citing a lame excuse about fatigue scores which has since been disproved, hence, and I quote "I've gone too far down the 10.9 path now to turn back", in other words, making promises to DC that he just can't keep. Even then 'M' was able to keep his poker face when telling the AIRC that extended rosters where off the table in Perth, not minutes after offering the 10.9 olive branch to Union delegates! So with 'M' desperatly trying not to back peddle and save face with the board, a local manager whom finds it impossible to be civil to, let alone be constructive with his workforce, Perth has reached a stalemate.
Which eludes to the question, why would 'M' want to make an example of Perth? After all, 12 months ago, all the other ACS Line Stations were being asked why they couldn't operate in the same manner. Domestic and International Operations combined, LAME's carring out the work of storemen and ground equipment mechanics at night, no demarcation between trades, a positive 'can do attitude'....... why put all this at risk? The reason is simple, this is NOT about just Perth.... Brisbane, Adelaide (don't think you'll keep your 4x5), Sydney and Melbourne you're next!!! Perth is the smallest and remotest port, a classic case of Qantas divide and conquer. Who cares when Perth LAME's are forced to work a soul destroying, morale sapping, fatigue inducing, unrewarding 8 hour shift........not the four gentlemen from Sydney, two from Brisbane or our friend from Darwin, who jet in to "make things happen" (or in the case of the 767 fuel pump change, totally f**k it up!). After all, the LAME's didn't even flinch when a whole Maintenence division was shutdown in Sydney, who'll worry about that lot all the way over there in the west, well you will!!! This truly is the thin end of M's preverbial wedge which reaches australia wide but again, as in his own words "I'll keep driving the machine until it breaks" he's only doing as he promised. Unfortunatly for the whole of ACS Engineering, that machine is still trundling along, thanks in no small way to the professionalism of Perth LAMEs. There is also the matter of a couple DMM's and DMM wannabees who have been tirelessly carrying out the duties of Supervisor, Leading Hand, certifying LAME and outstation hero, not to mention the much debated first point of contact in an emergency (difficult when you yourself are pushing back an aircraft, mobile phone, intrinsicly safe radio or not). Which by the way, the Airport Emergency Services refused to do. Whilst all the time feeling quite fatigued due to the copious amounts of overtime they've been forced to work......obviously the money has nothing to do with it! This of course could all end in the AIRC later this month, when the DMMs may be instructed to join their 'workmates' on the 8 hour roster........enjoy!
In their defence, the DMM's were all served notice from Qantas IR, that any deviation from their 12 hour, 4 on 4 off roster would constitute a breach of the work place relations act, for which they would be held accountable, fancy being forced to have four days off(better do some O/T)!!!!
All in all, this situation has descended into a farce, although, I can steadfastly say that Perth LAME's will NOT be caving in to the 10.9 and will remain committed, with or without the total support our 'brothers' around the country. For those of you who can see through the smoke and have knocked back the lure of a weekend in the west, thanks.
As for 'M', if your new contract depends on you delivering on your $42 million promise, I guess LAMEs in Perth will be working a Qantas 8 hour shift for a lot longer than you will be!
One last point, blue collar or white collar, you're only going to be treated in one way by this company unless you're management and that is as the number they assigned you when you joined!

[YesTAM]

I think its fairly obvious what the long term objective is - convert everything into salary and get rid of the concept of overtime completely. Thats why the twelve hour shift has to go.

In a heavy maintenance environment this may be a trivial change, but in a line maintenance environment, it means that the costs and risks associated with the uncertainty that is part of the job (ie: Aircraft delayed arriving for maintenance, trouble shooting etc.) is born entirely by the employees.

To put it another way, the company no longer bears the cost of uncertainty or its own poor scheduling as in: "No matter when the aircraft arrives, no matter what the problem, the trained monkeys will fix it before they go home, in return for their standard weekly ration of peanuts".

There is at least one academic theory of management that says managers exist to insulate workers from the day to day uncertainty of business and provide continuity and an orderly business process. It appears to me that Qantas management is basicaly trying to weasel out of the responsibility of managing and scheduling its own maintenance in a cost effective manner - at the expense of its employees.

This is not a win/win situation and is therefore bad (and stupid) management practice.

[QF22]

Who cares what you think! You sound like a managers stooge to me!

[crank]

So i was reading this thread with interest and wasn't going to post until the vitriol spouted by mr fixit. it's 2007 mate. catch up.

Obviously there are a number of different perspectives, and a few of the posters are actually involved on the ground in perth. what i don't understand is this reluctance to change. yeah sure mr fixit, you could have an extended dispute, however lets face it, such a dispute is only going to damage exactly what it is you purport to be protecting: the safety of the travelling public. The 'scabs' you all talk about appear to be trying to protect exactly that. even those referred to by shafted again.

I've never understood personal vilification as a means to secure industrial objectives.

From these posts it seems to be quite a clear issue: the company is trying to change to become more efficient and save this $40mil odd. For some reason this seems offensive to many, even though it is a completely legitimate business objective.

Does it really matter what colour collar someone wears if that's the goal? Surely meeting this target is something that benefits all involved.

[The masked goatrider]

Crank - It is good to hear some other opinions and I'm glad you have been reading with interest. It is time to accept change and make the airline even more profitable and some facts about Perth engineering need to be highlighted for all readers.

Qantas have hired the ace team from the US called Seabury to identify savings. They spent 4 months and worked out a 10.9 hour roster could save the airline 1.9m in Perth. The workers exercised their right to refuse the roster and were threatened with an 8 hour roster unless they changed their minds. They didn't and the 8 hour roster was enforced.

The 8 hour roster is undermanned and unsafe levels of staff are working the tarmac. The AIRC requested the union to put together another option. It took them 3 weeks to work out another roster that saved the airline 2.6m per year. The airline won't allow the roster because it would prove that the Seabury nutters don't have the answers and the union do.

Every excuse has been used by management to discredit the union roster. They claim it fails a fatigue risk assessment (even though they have allowed it in Adelaide). They claim that the 8 hour roster hasn't been causing delays yet nearly every plane leaves Perth late.

The scabs are few but when they work they break every rule under the sun to get aircraft turned around. That is what is unsafe here and many reports have gone in. They include -

-pushing aircraft without a headset connected
-aircraft taxying onto bay without marshalling due to lack of staff
-a tarmac being run without supervision
-scabs with mechanical licences signing autopilot defects out of category
-a scab changing an aircraft beacon and fitting one for the wrong aircraft because he is rushing and not working to the manual.

The list goes on and the target the staff have tried to meet has been exceeded by the union roster. This is a management group littered with ex Ansett fools trying to prove that if you fail once, try again until you succeed. The same principles saw the CASA grounding of the Ansett 767 fleet and the collapse of an Australian icon. Lets avoid it happening again.

[Managers Perspective]

Ohhhhh Please......................

[Bolty McBolt]

Managers perspective.
With your " Ohhhhh Please......................" comment it appears you may not appreciate others opinion.

I for one am still waiting for you to back up your comment you made a page back with some stats or news articles references FACTS etc other than your own opinion.

Managers pespective said
I am yet to hear of anyone who is prepared to do a reasonable day's work being unsatisfied being on an AWA.

Seems only those that want to sit back on their butt all day that fear an AWA.

May not be what some want to hear, but facts are facts......

PS If you do manage to track down some positive spin on what you are talking about make sure its a similar industry. I want to see apples compared with apples....

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

a push back without having a head set connected,would that not be a cardinal rule broken,my God this is getting beyond a joke WERE THE HELL IS CASA
AS for the dip sh!t manager on this forum,is that the best you can come up with oh please,it seems to me you don't understand processes and procedures and why they are brought about,perhaps it's time you call it a day and go a work for someone like Pizza Hut,hang on a sec they didn't become a world wide business because they cut corners(no pun intended),nor did Qantas this is very disturbing

[The Mr Fixit]

Same old same old more scabs appear from Sydney Base this time to do turnarounds in perth to support M and his cohorts in their "There are no delays in perth or no manpower difficulties" bullsh!t. Also a absolute Ahole from the city of churches flew in to relieve the two Syd base foreman who decided that lies from management could not be stomached any longer and flew out of perth no wishing to return

Pity any of them who finds themselves in trouble,

NO ONE WILL SUPPORT YOU

[fantasyland]

SMH reported today that QF is offering 50 voluntary redundancies to Line Maintenance.

Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?

Anyone have more information?

[Anulus Filler]

SMH reported today that QF is offering 50 voluntary redundancies to Line Maintenance.
Does this have anything to do with the Perth situation?
Anyone have more information?
Hope So!!! I already missed out once. Several interested from Perth but won't be going anywhere until the masturbater (M) pays out :ok:

[chockchucker]

As I understand it, the 50 VR's being offered are for Melbourne domestic and international Line Maintenance LAME's. As expected, there is no shortage of volunteers. Who could blame them.


One theory is that this is an attempt to purge the ranks of a lot of the old guys. Leaving a younger generation behind who still have a mortage to pay and kids to put through school. Thus providing management with a work force that is more likely to be persuaded into the management way of thinking. Especially now that the only management negotiating technique is to dangle people's jobs infront of them.

[Bumpfoh]

That might be the intention of "M" re. the younger more impressionable workforce to deal with but I think you will find that the most resolve will come from that same said group whether the "older" retirement age staff are gone or not via redundancies.

Being one of the "younger ones with family, mortgage etc" I certainly won't sit back and be pineappled by "M" just so he can gloat to his superiors and recieve his bonus at our expense! :=

Show me some real facts and figures instead of the rubbery hole filled tripe this Seabury mob and the saviour to all in ACS the Lighthouse group:yuk: serve up as evidence and then I and the other ACS staff might become a little bit more engaged in the change process.:ok:

[soldier of fortune]

there have been 48 confirmed applications for VR in mel acs

the big quesstion is whats happening in syd acs - still untouched -or are mangement leaving the best till last - for the big shafting -:rolleyes:

[domo]

i guess they must leave syd untill the other ports are sorted out because if the theris problems restrucuring syd who will maintain the a/c if the other ports are in turmoil.

sydney is the jewel where m will make most cost savings

subject to the precint review out soon ???

[Bumpfoh]

With all due respect domo there are more ports in Aus than just Syd doing scheduled maintenance on the QF fleet.:ok:

But point taken, the impact on the QF schedule with turmoil in a non maintenance port versus say turmoil in Syd or Mel for example is very different.

Late departures versus cancelled services due late ex-maintenance repeatedly due to induced inefficiencies (read 8 hour shift/ disengaged staff etc) would get the attention of the board pretty quickly.:ok:

I'm sure M attacking the smaller ports first is all part of his demented plan, divide and conquer, thin edge of the wedge etc, etc.:yuk:

[The Mr Fixit]

M is taking aim at another port

MELBOURNE

Break the union's backbone and the deck of cards will fall

That's what his secret document says anyway

Are LAMEs in this port up to the task or will they fall as expected ?

[company_spy]

Forstaff LAME's in AVV with the required ratings have been offered a one month "posting" to Perth. The plot thickens.......

[Kiwiconehead]

I've seen a few threads on this Perth situation but no-one has actually said what was wrong with the 10.9hr roster?

How was it going to work? was the base still going to be manned 24hr or have a period with no-one there. Does it need to be manned 24hrs if it wasn't under the new roster?

All that has been said that they would get less money.

[N.E.R.D.]

[LEFT] The 10.9 roster removes all of the conditions of the original 12 hour roster with nothing in return to the perth guys.
20th days (RDO)gone.
Wage average gone.
Effective wage down by an an average of 12-14 grand.
The pinapple wants them to do shift extensions and overtime "äs required" to cover the 1.1 hours to keep a 4 on 4 off roster.
A roster group gave the company a cost effective alternative to the 10.9. A 4 on 5 off roster was rejected outright by the company so the enginners are standing firm continuing on the 8 hour roster.
Make no mistake, the 10.9 roster is about reducing contitions and remuneration and the engineers will not bend.
The only way the current 8 hour still operates is through a couple of DMM's doing massive amounts of overtime and call ins. The helpful S**B's that come over to allow the DMM's to get leave. The brother's that fly over to bail out a/c.
The pinapple with short notice changes individual roster start times to fill holes in his plan on a daily baisis. Sick leave is soaring and leave is being cancelled to keep his grand vision going.
The latest tactic's are :
1. Threatened cancellation of long service leave
2. Cancelling the Malaysian and Royal Brunei enginnering contracts (therefore loss of enginner customer payments)
3. The "open checkbook" for licence training if overtime is done
The ALAEA is back in the comission on friday over the DMM's continuing on the 12 hour 4 on 4 off roster after the extended hour roster agreement has finished in Perth.

[fantasyland]

Hello Kiwiconehead,

Im sure there are a number of issues around the employee rejection of the 10.9 hour roster. You are right though when you say it pays less money.
I think its pretty fair to say that if the average employee was asked to agree on a change to their working conditions that resulted in them earning less money, the employee wouldnt be exactly falling over himself to agree. Especially when an alternative roster can be negotiated that allows a win for all.

I recall a quote from QF management:
"Qantas is comitted to keeping jobs in Australia, but not at any cost."

I believe QF employees could take exactly the same train of thought and apply it to their own situation:
"Employees are committed to keeping their jobs at Qantas, but not at any cost"



That seems to be where it is at the moment...

[Anulus Filler]

PERTH REACHES NEW LOWS
In a week that can only be described as a disaster, countless manpower
shortages and broken aircraft have certainly taken their toll. But hey, this is
an optimised 8 hour roster and by the company's standard works well.(I'd like
to see if it didn't)
Then you have a kiwi cone head ,who smiles a lot and has a regular feature
article in 'the voice', come back in the middle of annual leave to help out with
this operational disaster. What a joke. Problem is no one is laughing.
M , don't worry about saving face. Take those rose coloured glasses off and wake up to yourself !:sad:

[Kiwiconehead]

Thanks N.E.R.D. - that paints a much clearer and ****tier picture. If they want the base to stay 24hr then your old 12hr is the only way to go.

[acslame]

I am very dissapointed in the small group of lame's in perth who are
applying for the 4 seniors positions .

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?

The pineapple hasn't put these positions out because there are crews that need running. WAKE UP !! He needs people committed to make his unworkable 8hr roster work! And he is trying to buy them. That is all!
He is telling you its to relieve the Leading hands and DMM's , Well thats
not his agenda. All he cares about is being able to stand up in the commission on the 4th and tell commissioner Watson he is doing something to fullfill his leave obligations.

At present it is almost impossible for snr lames to take leave,
and they are having to fly in people from an ever shrinking pool to relieve the DMM's , all at considerable cost.
This is just one of the issues putting management under pressure in the commission ,but buy applying for these jobs you are giving the pineapple the ammunition he needs to break us!!!!
I have heard the excuses

I am looking long term-
Well fella , I hope you like the situation we are in now because as soon as the pineapple can make this thing work it will be long term so you had better get used to it!

I am doing it for my family-
What , by helping pineapple impose a roster on us that means we never get to see our famillies . You can bet that come bonus time M doesn't give a rat's ass about your family only the bottom dollar for running the operation and saving face! And what makes the needs of your family
more important than anyone elses?

I am looking at the bigger picture -
Well how about you enlighten us all with your knowlage of the future because we would all like to know, better still tell our reps so they can be better prepared in the commision.

I am doing this so the seniors can have time off-
Have you asked them? They are as pissed at you as the rest of us
They are doing there bit and understand the situation

All you are doing is selling out your mates.
You all complained at the amount of OT that some of our DMM's were doing
making pineapples 8hr roster work , even to the point of ending long term friendships over it.
You all complained when travellers came over to provide manpower relief.
even to the point of using the sc-b word.
You gave one of the lames who did overtime so much grief that he may have to change crews .

Well take a look at yourselves now.
Pineapples dosen't need to fly people over now , he has his own little home grown group who sold out there mates for as little as a senior lames payement
Can you guys not see what he is trying to do here? are you that naieve?

What has been the point of all we have been through in the last 6 months
if you can be bought off so easily.You will be used to provide relief for the leading hands and the DMM's , you will be expected to do overtime. you will be moved between the crews at there leisure to put out spot fires
and you will be on call 24 hrs a day for coverage.

Now explain to me the differance between you and the people you complained about above? I don't see a whlo lot of differance do you?
Ask yourselves how you will feel on your first day when you walk in as a
senior, will you be proud or will you be dreading the reaction of your peers

If the latter is the case then that little emotion is called GUILT. That is the
emotion you get when you know you have done the wrong thing. Sadly an emotion that can be missing in some lame's

Some of you asked us to respect your decisions. Well I, and I am sure
others do not. What reson can you have for putting your needs over the
needs of others in the same predicament?
It is not too late to withdraw your applications and be men again.
Or you can let them stand and be shown the same respect as to the
likes of Borat and mini me

I ask you , what is your good name worth to you

[fordran]

This is a great lesson on reality for the pi$$ weak. Please print and leave in Perth smoko rooms. Also send a copy to each of their wives and let them be proud of the promotions their lovely husbands have won.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

kiwi cone head is scabing it what a suprise,a KIWI scabing it what next,HM is Sydney opening up again

[Vnavtwo]

To the pending new senior LAME's do you think this will be the last opportunity for a seniors job?
As it has been pointed out, the commission hearing this week should resolve the DMM issues.
The company must be rubbing its hands that any of you have put in for their senior roles. It is the last piece in the puzzle and then we will have a 8 hour shift to enjoy for evermore as you will have solved the problem of no one wanting to act anymore.
Dont be so short sighted and stop thinking about yourself.
Remember, divide and conquor is how this place works and they will have certainly divided us if these new seniors step up for the M.

[fantasyland]

I hope the perth LAMEs can hold the line. I hope commissioner Watson makes the right decision. I look forward to the Federal Election and the establishment of Fair Work Australia very soon after.

Did you see how quickly QF has involved itself in the attack on Rudd's Fair Work Australia proposal? That is surely indication that the proposal can only mean good things for employees at QF.

Management at QF constantly tell the employees that they must accept change. Hopefully, this year it will be management that will have to accept change.

[rudderless1]

Come on guys, you are so close. Hang in there! The asn will not pull the rug so don't pull it yourselves. If you do your rooted anyway, so give it a go to the end.:ok:

[domo]

guys we all like to get promoted,when its your turn and everyone knows you deserve it. most of us dislike suck h**e maty club yes men.
but these leading handpositions in perth take the biscute
the sucessfull canadates will have to like their own company and take up reading cos they wont have to many friends

[EPR1.31]

:) acslame- VERY VERY well put. To the guys who have applied for the seniors position"THINK" about what you are doing. We have stood together for 6 months now. We knew there were always going to be "scabs". If they hadn't done what they've done this would already have been resolved as it would have fallen in a heap. Don't be a part of your own demise!!!!

[Vnavtwo]

Hope that you guys are having second thoughts.

The negative feelings your actions have generated are great and as far as I can tell you will never have any respect after this.

DH can walk into Friday's hearing and show the commissioner what he is doing to fix the leave problems there will be no more argument against this 8hr shift.

There has been 6 months of sticking together and these next few days are going to be vital. Don't throw away all the good work so far.

You would always be remembered for your choices now no matter what happens. Make the right choice now.

If you are happy to go through with this lets go and see when they can start the 10.9 shift. Our defeat will be total and complete.

We are all in this together, lets stay together and not let the prospect of a seniors job get in the way of what we are trying to achieve. Do not let your ambition cloud your judgement. Why else would you do this after 6 months of solidarity?

[fantasyland]

Does anyone know what went down in the commission yesterday?

[Long Bay Mauler]

Yeah,what was the outcome?

Must mean management won the day?:uhoh:

Its all so quiet on the Western front!!:*

[The masked goatrider]

Decision handed down next week. 10 years without a win in the AIRC may come to an end for the ALAEA.

[No SAR No Details]

I just hope raffaelli is not playing video referee/umpire.

[The masked goatrider]

Nice to also hear that all 5 Senior LAME applicants have also withdrawn. Over to you Murray who will save your a$$ now? Your texan friends from APA, the lighthouse group or some short sighted scum from the Eastern States?

[Dick.Hayes]

It is good to see “M” has now advertised around the network for more SLAME’s to be transferred to Perth. We need more staff, and quick.

The new improved current 8 hour roster currently has 85 engineers on station + 2 new planners we never needed before + permanent DMM relief from other ports + a MH certifying LAME from KL. With these new SLAME’s, This will take our staff to somewhere between 90 and 100.

Just prior to this 8 hour shift, The old “4 On 4 Off 12 hour” shift worked easily with 65 staff on station, Total. This was even with some of that staff doing special projects, comities, training, Traveling-engineers duties to CGK several times a week, OH&S stuff, etc, etc.

Currently, There are no comities, no OH&S, no traveling-engineers, no training, ets. Every thing has been cancelled to get all hands on deck…. and the hilarious thing is, the 8 hour still doesn’t work.

The sooner we can get our staff numbers over 100, the sooner we will be able to go on leave again. (But of course, it’s all about saving money).

[fantasyland]

Can anyone update the perth situation?

When will Watson hand down his decision? Whats taking so long?

If he agrees with the ALAEA, does that mean Qantas will be ordered to direct the DMMs to work the 8 hour shift, like everyone else?

Has anyone applied for the Snr LAME positions from outside perth?

Do the guys in the other ports know the ramifications of applying for and filling these positions?

[The Mainland]

Current shambles remains, and will remain while the "well intentioned few" contnue to do the bidding of the pineapple and protract the situation.

Expect Watson decision in the next week or so, legal processes taking time. No-one knows what Watson may direct, all will be revealed.

Heard rumours of some applying for positions, they do need to ask themselves why no LAME in Perth stood for position. Tell them to read this forum I suggest. It would be nice for all members around th country to inform their friends who might not be fully enlightened of the real story, and what the positions really entail. Not your standard Senior LAME.

:ok:

[domo]

[QUOTE]Do the guys in the other ports know the ramifications of applying for and filling these positions?[/QUOTE

what you mean i wont be welcomed with opened arms?

[Long Bay Mauler]

Yeah mate, managment will, but I doubt the blokes on the floor will thank or respect you for it!!!!!!:=

Time for a reality check me thinks................................:ok:

[acslame]

well we have just had qf management over trying to get us to extend our
shifts to cover the customers and specifically MAS.
It appears that they are not happy and are threatening to pull the
contract from QF nationally . The contract is worth 6m to the company.
Kiwi and Garuda are also allegidly unhappy as well.
They then went down the path of suggesting that if we didn't accept / trial the 10.9 hr roster that there would be retrenchments and the possability
that QF management would close perth eng down all together.
DH has already threatened us with that on neumerous occasions has't he.

This reeks of a MH set up to me. If we dont kowtow to him now he gets the opertunity to shead contracts and paint perth eng as the bad guys who
caused it .

If he pulls this off it will also be used against the the MEL international
guys allowing him to get rid of his so called trouble makers making MH
look good to this boss DC.

How do we move forward when you have a snake like this for a boss

Its just a shame that we don't have access to upper management to get
our case heard
Any Ideas?

[company_spy]

"Go West young man!"

Anyone who goes to Perth from the East to prop up this situation needs to look at the big picture. I don't care how you try to justify it, it is wrong. To travel to Perth OCS for any reason at the moment is to do yourself a double disservice for you can bank on the fact that not only are you snubbing your brothers and sisters in arms you are also prostituting yourself to a management who regards you with as much distain for having no conviction, all for a plane ride and a few bucks.

You are not getting any brownie points with management, you need to specialise in other areas for that............

[No SAR No Details]

I hear the commish ruled the DMMs can't stay on 12 hr.
Is this correct?
Did we actually have a win in the commission?

[Nepotisim]

I am confused. Let me get this right. M takes you off a 12 hour shift. I don't remember why, maybe it was because it was costing him too much money?
You difficult chaps wouldn't do M's favourite 10.5 hour shift, the answer to everything. So......
You get shafted, sorry its all we could do, back onto the 8 hour shift. Which apparently is working very well, meeting all the needs of the station. Now.....
You tell us that management are over there wanting an extended shift because other operators aren't happy with the current level of service.
So the question is do they want extended shift or not?
I wonder if M and others in management would ever admit they were wrong? :eek: Imagine if they said that the eight hour isn't working lets go back onto the previous 12 hour, keep the customers happy, and sort this out. What is your plan M?
But then again they are management and they will never admit they are wrong. They probably didn't plan on you blokes sticking together so well. Keep up the good fight. Don't worry about those coming from other stations either. That is still costing the company a lot more than if you were on the 12 hour and self sufficient.
N.

[Nepotisim]

Well here is the conclusion from the AIRC hearing........
One good, one unfortunate.
Lets see what M's next move is.
CONCLUSIONS
[41] I have considered all the matters raised by the parties and have concluded that, in all of circumstances, and for the reasons outlined above, that Qantas is not required to reinstate the 12 hour shift roster for all LAMEs at Perth Airport. When construed properly, nothing in cl 12 requires Qantas to implement any particular roster. Nor should the 1995 Agreement between the ALAEA and Qantas be seen as having the same effect. The 1995 Agreement gave the Company an option to facilitate the introduction of an extended hours roster. A roster involving more than eight ordinary hours requires Qantas to obtain the agreement of the ALAEA. A roster of eight hours as per the one in operation since November 2006 does not. None of the circumstances or arguments advanced on behalf of the ALAEA lead to the conclusion that the choice made by Qantas should be overturned.
[42] The Enterprise Agreement makes the working of extended hours rosters conditional on ALAEA agreement. When it became clear that the ALAEA had withdrawn its agreement to a 12 hour roster for DMMs, Qantas ceased to have the necessary condition in place to continue to roster DMMs on 12 hour shifts. The circumstances of the ALAEA withdrawal of their agreement are unfortunate. In my view the ALAEA has not acted responsibly. However I do not consider that it is appropriate to do otherwise than give effect to the wording adopted by the parties in their agreement. The parties should confer with the DMMs concerned and with each other as to roster arrangements to apply to DMMs from 1 July 2007.
BY THE COMMISSION:

[domo]

they seem happy to lose contracts it gives them an excuse to downsize they could have hung on to the singapoure contract but did not want it how many engineers did that cost (syd 20)

[Dick.Hayes]

I loved the pep-talk given by the Visiting Qf Management.
Especially precious was the bribe….Do the 10.9 and we will get all the training done for you guys over the next 6 months. Plus, The SQ and Emirates contracts are waiting.
Then when we didn’t bite… he said, do the 10.9 or you wont have a job….the funny thing was, he was actually saying this to one of the guys that put in for V.R. six months ago and they wouldn’t let him go.
Then the master plan, he offered Garuda training if we did the 10.9. Well, he almost had us.
Was it just me, or was the “10.9” mentioned a few times. Didn’t we start that discussion 12 months ago. Good to see we are now moving forward.

[cementhead]

ok its being going on for a while
whats the comprise 11.45 shift
grow up your employer wants you to change shifts whats the big deal
he's the manager he wants you to change shifts for operational reasons

you should be glad you have a job

[Dick.Hayes]

That’s Right Cementhead.
Now is the time to give up award conditions (like 20th days).
Don’t worry about EBA’s, lets just start giving up all our award conditions right now, before Qantas makes another record profit.

[cementhead]

mate you work 38 hours a week you dont get 20th day
if you work a 40hr week they owe you 2hrs so every month you get a day off

on the 10.9 you work 38 hrs a week
no 20th day

sorry what were you given up?

[Dick.Hayes]

Cement.
It is in a booklet distributed by Qantas and the ALAEA in 1983 (When we went to the 38 hour week). The booklet is called “Review of Hours of work 1983”

Item 3.
“….Employees continue to work …..is credited towards the rostered 20th day off”

We are entitled to 20th days. The company already conceded this point 6 months ago with our enforced 8 hour roster. The ALAEA can send you a copy.

[sobast]

I can understand you Perth guys not wanting to lose conditions, but watch the ALAEA doesn't lead up the garden path. Purkvinas says he's pleased with the outcome.?? What? QF keeps the 8hr roster and the union kicks the permanent DMMs off the 12 hr shift they like. You call that a win?
The commish essentially said the ALAEA was was not acting responsibly and their evidence is misleading. If the vice pres of the commish says that, sounds like the ALAEA has no credibility.
Did you read the previous transcripts? How often did you cringe with embarrassment at the ineptitude of Purkvinas and his questions. Purkvinas was embarrassing the ALAEA and we are the ALAEA. Where were the professionals he said you would use in such cases when he bagged the previous union members? Purkvinas says we'll keep taking QF to the commish for everything and QF will eventually give in to whatever we want. That is the thinking of a FOOL! We will not win anything unless it is legit. Not these impossible claims they're making.

Do you really think QF wants to lose contracts and get us off-side? (KP LOST the SIO Singapore contract because he was an arrogant fool. Others were fighting to keep it) QF knows we are their greatest asset. They count on us helping them to run a business efficiently. If they lose the foreign contracts there's not enough work for us and less money coning in. Gee, what can they do? Reduce manpower via retrenchments because they can't afford to pay us to sit on our butts! But Purkvinas doesn't care. He's already put in for redundancy. We're paying him and the others $35 an hr to embarrass us in court. I'm told he even has an ALAEA provided car. (not 100% sure on that one). Word has it that if OUR coffers keep getting milked the way they are, the ALAEA won't be around in 12 months. We'll have to amalgamate with some other union.
Enough for now. I need a beer!

[company_spy]

Sobast, the reality is that management want "cost reduction"

The only way these giants of the business world can work out how to do this is to shrink their business.

If they don't renew contracts they can retrench surplus labour.

They neither want us on or off side, it makes no difference to them.

Once the business has been shrunk down to core QF only, watch for another player in the mix, or perhaps by then part timers on AWAs.

[sobast]

Yes, they want cost reduction because our aircraft maintenance is pure cost unless you can get contracts so you can make money from maintaining other ops aircraft to help offset the cost of maintaining our own aircraft. More contracts = more profit = more of our costs offset. (simplisticly). BMS has only been making some money the last few years because QF chased the Atlas maint contract and the BA and others' washing contracts. Yeah, they're low on staff but they're working to keep the contracts and the incoming money. I think we all need to realise that if we don't negotiate reasonably and help to retain contracts, our maintenance will become too expensive and QF will have to contract out OUR maintenance.

[The Mr Fixit]

Sobast, I mean company puppet

Go spread your bull**** rhetoric somewhere else,

17 billion dollar company and oh whoa is me LAMEs cost too much, our safest airline in history reputation obviously was only due to management input

ITS CLEAR A LINE IN THE SAND HAS BEEN DRAWN

Cmon guys lets step over it

By the way any truth that a piece of sh!t from the east is over in Perth peddlin lies to the LAMEs again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[No SAR No Details]

$35 an hour to embarrass us in court! What a bargain. The ALAEA got the result it set out to get. The commissioner covered his arse by saying the ALAEA were unreasonable but he has to rule on the law. QF spent $500 an hour plus on their legal represention.
The association has done the best for their members as their members in perth wished.
The precident is set. A 12 hr agreement is only valid whilst [U]both parties agree[U] and that should be valid across Australia.
Not to hard to go back to 8 hr nation wide if the members vote for it.
It would be bloody Kaos.
I heard the fedsec got offered a scond hand ford focus.
I dont know if he accepted or not.
Rumour has it he said I'd rather walk.
Doesn't like fords apparently.

[Dick.Hayes]

This ruling also slows M’s “divide and conquer methods.”
In Perth, he put the LAME’s and SLAME’s on the 8 hour but left the DMM’s where they were. This was M (and the pineapple’s) way of saying to the DMM’s, you help me screw the LAME’s, and I’ll look after you guys.
As for the 4 DMM’s wanting to stay on the 12 hour….
2 of the DMM’s wanted to move to the 8 with the LAME’s but said “we’d get crucified by the company if we demanded that”
They actually wanted the ruling.

[fantasyland]

Congrats to the ALAEA team on their win in the commission.

Congrats to the Perth LAMEs for sticking to their guns and to all east coast LAME's that resist heading to perth to assist QF in slowly screwing down their conditions and pay.

2007 is shaping up to be a vintage year all round.

[mahatmacoat]

Sobast - the joke is on you fool. Having a look at your last posts, most of them were defending the old Executive and Qantas in a thread titled ALAEA Exec to step down. Lets have a look at some of your comments.

"OH that's right! It's the thin end of the wedge. Get a grip. The only wedges around here are the two "men" from MEL and one from SDT on the exec that are stirring up trouble and offering no solutions. They're the ones to kick out. "

Then there is thiscompany line regarding the EBA and those promoting a no vote.

"By the way. Who ever put the VOTE NO stickers up all over the place, watch your stupid arse. You vandalised company property. Qantas wants your arse."

So who is the embarrassment? I'm sure the readers will decide and I have concluded that you are part of the old Executive voted out by an overwhellming majority of members and still spitting out the sour grapes.

So youre not happy about the ALAEA winning a court case? and Mr Purkvinas, the new Federal Seecretary running the case himself at $35 per hour?

What did the old Executive do? They lost every case in 10 years. They couldn't run the cases themselves because they were incompetant. They paid Barristers and QC's big money to lose cases. The Syd HM costing $80,000 alone only to lose. Well done.

"Purkvinas says we'll keep taking QF to the commish for everything and QF will eventually give in to whatever we want. That is the thinking of a FOOL! We will not win anything unless it is legit. Not these impossible claims they're making."


But how could a fool win a court case against the Qantas QC? Obviously what he said got the result they were after. Back down the pub for you. At least the new Federal Secretary is sober.

[Anulus Filler]

Hi there Sobby.:sad:
Did you read the previous transcripts? How often did you cringe with embarrassment at the ineptitude of Purkvinas and his questions. Purkvinas was embarrassing the ALAEA and we are the ALAEA.

I don't know which transcripts you were reading, but the ones I read made the MLM in Perth look like a fool. In fact, Purkvinas had him doubting what he himself had mentioned in the prevous hearings under oath.( Not bad for $35/hr). Wondering what it cost Qf.

As for the car the ALAEA have given him, I hope they give him a Mercedes. At least he has given us all a bit of representation which certainly didn't exist from the previous executive.

Mr fixit
By the way any truth that a piece of sh!t from the east is over in Perth peddlin lies to the LAMEs again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Your'e right there. This parasite was M's carrier pidgeon. Just wondering if he was after a free holiday or M genuinely believed there was some hope in the 10.9:ugh:

[The masked goatrider]

Tim, ;) , I mean Sobast,

Cut and past one of the questions Mr P asked that made you cringe with embarrassment. You made the statement so come up with the goods you have the transcript.

[perdmm]

As one of the perth DMM s I would like to say;
On behalf of most DMM s and Perth LAME's, we thank SP and the ALAEA for going to the commission on our behalf and congratulate their efforts.
This was not SP's private battle, This is what all us Perth guys (including DMM's) requested they do.

[acslame]

well boys this is it
WHERE DO YOU STAND?
The time for talk is over . the commissioner has spoken
will you support your boys like the mel int dmm's
or is it all about numero uno
a LOT of people are watching

[Anulus Filler]

Hear, 0 heavens, and give ear, 0 earth, for the 'THE VOICE' hath spoken.:ok:

[chemical alli]

so you have know decided to attack the perth lames, after failing with the eba post.i guess you are one bitter and twisted individual or ex lame who has risen to the dizzy heights. word of advice play in your own backyard and the neighbours dog wont bite.

great result from the exec and keep the pressure on,more support the perth guys then you realise

[The masked goatrider]

Still waiting for your reply sobast. Don't be shy I am sure M will be mighty proud of you when you can turn a loss for Qf in the court rooms into a positive.

[sobast]

My apologies Goatrooter, sorry, rider. I've deleted the file. I'll track a copy down and post some exerpts. But if you actually read the transcript where purkvinas questioned DH (with unbiased eyes), you would admit he was inept. I'm intrigued how you think the case was a win. The Perth guys are still on 8 hrs = QF win!?. All the union achieved was getting the 4 DMMs taken off 12 hr shifts. From memory, the survey showed 3 of the 4 wanted to stay on the 12 hr roster. Gee. That's a win? Lets see. 45? Perth guys put on 8hrs. 45 points to QF. 4 Perth DMMs taken off 12hrs. Union 4. QF wins 45 points to 4.
Also, why were acting DMMs surveyed by the union on whether tho stay on 12 hrs? No disrespect to the actors but they have no right to vote in that survey. It's not their permanent job.

Can someone actually explain to me what was wrong with the 4 on 4 off, 10.9 hr shift? I don't want all the bull. I really want to know what the problem was as I haven't heard the real story. Not just biased stuff from union reps like Anus filler.

[FCMC]

Hopefully M and DH are reading this themselves or HR has flagged it for them.

M- For a guy that lives for Intelligent Space I dont see too much intelligence going on. Your major tactical error was using DH as your tool for change. He is too much of a Bully and Arrogant to manage the change you required in Perth. He has made too many mistakes and lies at the AIRC and you have covered for him too many times. You are also too reliant on your Lighthouse group. They have really led you down the garden path with this one. Your saving face at all cost attitude is also highly unprofessional. Everyone works out the truth in the end and it is simply more respectful to put up your hand and admit your wrong and get on with a fix. The Roster Committee you set up with 3 excellent guys had all the answers for you. We were very proud of them. They gave you the 1400-0200 nightshift to you on a silver platter. The previous manger JT tried it for years to cut the O/T requirement for the afternoon (1400-1800) but got nowhere. YOU JUST DIDN'T REALISE THIS. It was a major win for you and DH. M-YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR 10.9 SHIFT.
MOVE ON AND NEGOTIATE!

DH- Your definitely a smart guy but not for managing. How did you ever get that position. Your managing highly skilled people not factory workers.
What happened to talking to people, empathy, staying cool and controlled.
Your embarrassing sometimes, actually most times. You rarely say hello to us these days and when you do its only with a grunt. You make me not want to aspire to any management level at all. You have no leadership qualities or skills but you are skillful in getting yourself out of trouble.

Perth DMMS- 2 of you I am so disappointed in it almost makes me sick. You have simply prolonged our agony with your hero antics and shortcutting longterm policies & procedures to keep this silly shift going. It will take years for both of you to get any respect at all from the guys. SHAME SHAME SHAME. You will realise this one day once M moves on and his spell is broken. You have obviously been promised something but is it worth it?

The 2 other DMMs (1 I will not comment as I think hes OK-not sure yet) the other as posted on this thread is our shining light. His ethics, standards and people skills are so far ahead of any QF management I have ever seen. QF doesn't deserve him! Hes too good for that. Thankyou so much and its such a shame your the only one I can ever learn any management skills from.

Interstate fly in DMMs.- Guys get a grip. Do you think your respected at all. Do you think the DMM badge gives you respect. Granted most of you have seen the errors in your ways and gone back but that guy at the moment from BNE-MT your just unbelievably bad. We will have our day on you.

ALAEA- SP your just brilliant. Your recent win is pivotal, most just dont realise it yet-WELL DONE!!!!!! We are all so glad your looking after us. The PER reps as well are excellent.

PER LAMEs- except for Borat and the odd South African or two your all fantastic people to be with. Im personally surprised how we have all stood together so well and I now realise more than ever no one is going to give in. Its gone on too long now. We have shown its not a money issue by the big reductions in shift & O/T we have accepted but an ethical one where we wont be bullied into new conditions without negotiation and reasoning.
For everyone out there our only negotiation on the 10.9 from DH is "accept the 10.9 or the 8 hour will be implemented" thats it.
Please understand to lose approx $6000-8000 a year plus 12 Z days with nothing in return and all we get is the above statement. What would you do! There simply was no negotiation. Surely some things are worth fighting for. They were offered a 12 hr day 10.9 hr night as an 11th hour fix which had substantial savings for the company. Again no negotiation.

Now for the latest but nothing you dont know.
The 8 hour is a disaster. It was implemented as a tactic to get us on the 10.9 but supposedly cheaper than the 12.

We now have so many new Engineers on station to prop it up ive actually lost count. Lighthouse originally said 5. Well its at least almost triple that now and rising. Not too mention 2 planners on contract. What do they do again? Unable to acquit leave as they cant have to many off. An increase of S/Lames of 8 to 14. Triple the sick days and delays through the roof. Ask any pilot flying to PER. We have 74 classics delayed 3 hours for no licence coverage. Air NZ & MH delays due no licence on shift etc etc. SAFE was all the rage a year ago, well there hasn't been a meeting in 6 months. They used to be every month. We are now a second rate operation and certainly not the standard of the Engineers in PER. Now we have this NG guy come over and threaten to dump the contracts and sprout the 10.9 again. MR JM of QF HR clearly said at the AIRC hearing "We are not interested in extended hour rosters in PERTH" Now who's telling the Porkie Pie!


So there we have it a station that runs the worst it ever has with more Supervision than ever, more sick leave than ever, up to 18 more people and unable to serve its customers let alone the core Airline. M- please get rid of the customers and quickly. It gives us another organisation to work at. Its clear now you have set us up in every way to fail. Dont prolong it. Shut us down now so we can move on. Its such a shame as you have such good people here. You picked the wrong station and the wrong manager.

[Anulus Filler]

Sobby:{
I'm intrigued how you think the case was a win. The Perth guys are still on 8 hrs = QF win!?. All the union achieved was getting the 4 DMMs taken off 12 hr shifts. From memory, the survey showed 3 of the 4 wanted to stay on the 12 hr roster. Gee. That's a win? Lets see. 45? Perth guys put on 8hrs. 45 points to QF. 4 Perth DMMs taken off 12hrs. Union 4. QF wins 45 points to 4.



Your ideology of using people as points would make me believe you to be one of the following:

1. A Q manager
2. An aspiring Q manager (Probably one of those sc@bs in Per/Flying to Per)
3. From the previous ALAEA executive.

There is little if no dividing line between these 3 groups of rabble. They as regarded as having a complete lack of morals and are thought of as the lowest of low.

Sobby, it certainly looked like this case was important to Qf. With all that legal circus they hired , it appeared that this was one case they didn't want to lose. But really, who do you think are the winners here? I definately can't call it one for Qf and its customers. Common sense definately has taken a walk out the back door. Qf gives us an unworkable roster which we are now getting used of. Melbourne next. Well done M. Great use of your (lack of) intelligent space. Throw out your strategy map and you could probably save your first million (albeit a bit too late now).

M and your comrades, what you take with force you will lose with force. No one is gaining at the moment. Forget your 10.9.... Treat it like an old boyfriend that caught you screwing around on him. :O

[Managers Perspective]

What a sad state of affairs.

Managers so far out of touch with their staff....

Staff so bitter that they would drag down their employer.....

To me there are no winners here, just survivors of a useless battle.

MP

[YesTAM]

I remember when the twelve hour shift was brought up at Ansett, I'd like to see if I understand if your twelve hour was the same, so I'll describe it for the benefit of non engineers, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. In the beginning there was the eight hour shift. The eight hour workday was sacrosanct. There were three shifts to get coverage.

2. Now because these are aircraft being worked on, there needs to be overlaps at the start and finish of each shift so that jobs don't get forgotten, it's about continuity.

3. With an eight hour shift, guys were making buckets of overtime - but most of that money was going straight to the treasurer as extra income tax. People were working very long hours for very little extra as they saw it.

4. So a bright LAME simply said "Lets work twelve hour shifts. Overtime does not then kick in until twelve hours elapsed. That means the company can get the overlaps necessary for safe maintenance without the company having to pay overtime - it saves the company money. Now we take home slightly less pay, but by working twelve hour shifts, we can have three day weekends and spend more time with our families. A win/win for company and staff." The only loser was the Federal Treasurer.

5. Now Abeles stomped on this idea big time at Ansett because it would have angered hawke and the union movement for whom the eight hour day and collective bargaining was sacrosanct. It sounds however that later Qantas adopted a similar sensible plan. Is this something like correct?

Now it sounds to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that QF has underinvested in training LAMES, and has probably abused the twelve hour shift, reducing overlaps and piling on overtime.

So along comes the consultant and sez:

"hey, these AWA's are cool! Lets roll overtime and other allowances into an hourly rate. We pay these guys for eight hours. We make them hang around for five days a week, so no more long weekends, less LAMES required, and we can work them for as long as we like for no additional overtime payment. And of course over time, that "one single hourly rate" will not keep up with inflation, reducing our total costs as a percentage of sales."

Am I close? More hours of work and less pay?

[lordofthewings]

Like Perth, Adelaide was only given two scenarios, 10.9 hr shift or 8 hr..Luckily for Adelaide, DH in Perth made a c..t of himself and the focus was taken off Adelaide allowing them to negotiate the current 4on5 off 12hr roster..
Adelaide overtime is well up, so are sick days.Staff are having trouble getting leave.This roster will not last, unfortunately the guys and girls in Adelaide havent the balls to stand up and fight for what is right, and will eventually end up on the 10.9 hr roster that M wants...
$4000-$7000 is what the new roster in Adelaide has lost staff, with no gains.Purely greed driven to load managers with big fat bonuses before they move on to there next staff screwing campaign.
Scab DMM in Adelaide reported to have said on his arrival back to the city of churches, that the guys in Perth appreciated him coming over..Fu..en good one...
8 hr roster nationally would be interesting..

low

[The masked goatrider]

Lost the transcript? That would be right. Add it to all the cases you lost when you were on the Executive.

[splashman]

The AIRC decision brings 2 positives to all members.

All DMM's are looked at as members of the ALAEA. The company cannot rely on DMM's to cover manpower shortfalls. All DMM's should acknowledge that their pay and conditions of employment were and are still negotiated by the ALAEA for them. I hope we all remember our so called brothers who deserted the PER LAME's in their time of need.

We as a group can now withdraw from any extended roster in any port for no reason at all. A powerful negotiation tool for EBA's, also a foil for forced roster changes network wide.

All in all a great outcome, we showed we can stick together, we showed that all ports can be united as one. (Thanks to the perth guy's and girl.) We also know who amongst our membership would screw all others for browny point's from M.

A great outcome for we gained so much and lost nothing.

[FCMC]

:ok: Exactly Mr Splashman. You are so correct.Well said.

Love this statement
"We also know who amongst our membership would screw all others for browny point's from M."

Yes have seen a few of them but fortunately not too many.Borat!!!!!!!!!!

[splashman]

Thanks FCMC,

I think all members, including DMM's, should look past their noses and see that we, as members of the ALAEA, are stronger united than divided.
The ploy of placing a group of the membership, into conflict with the rest works, the company knows this and has used it effectively for many years.

I have heard, although unconfirmed, that at a recent meeting in BNE, DMM's were polled with the question " Would you be prepared to work 12 hr shifts if the LAME's are placed on 8hrs"
The result, again unconfirmed, shocked me, with 6 out of 8 saying yes they would.

The AIRC decision has, in effect, has stopped QF from using self centered DMM's and LAME's working against us to further, or safeguard, their place within the company whilst throwing the rest of us to the wolves.

We can now say to these people, " No, you can not undermine us as a group ", " you shall work what we work, like it or not, for there is more to this than you , (and the chance for you to better yourself in the eyes of M.)

With the EBA negotiations stalling, maybe a protected action of some sort should commence, then we shall see who is prepared to work with us, and who will undermine's us. We can then show these people the door from our ALAEA, and leave them to the wolves without the protection that we, the ALAEA, provide.

F**K EM!

[perdmm]

Shortly before the IRC decision was given, M and DH offered the Perth DMM’s individual AWA’s so they could stay on the 12 hour.
Of course the usual suspects lapped up the idea but due to a sticking point with one DMM, it was taken off the table (for now).

[sobast]

Hey Splashman. Up front, this is not an attack on you it is simple discussion. OK? You seem to know a fair bit of what's happening so maybe you can explain. I asked elsewhere and no-one answered. I just got abuse. Do you know what the problem was in Perth with the 10.9 hr shift? I believe it was 4 on 4 off. Someone said they'd lose 7k in penalties but that can't be right. Any ideas?

You said We can now say to these people, " No, you can not undermine us as a group ", " you shall work what we work, like it or not, for there is more to this than you . I know where you're comng from.
At the same time in MEL the vote seemed "rigged" the other way. They were voting on rosters for INT,DOM and supers. Each of the 3 areas had to have the same majority one way or the other. That meant that the the smallest group of (I think) 8 had control of the vote. You could have a couple of hundred guys voting one way, but the 8 would override them. Even if only 3 of te 8 voted the other way. NOTE- I'm NOT bagging the supers. It's just the way I see it, the smaller number won the vote because of the way the votes were weighted by the union. Please, if I've got it mixed up, tell me.
It's hard to get balanced discussion/information around here with people like goatrooter and anusfiller dumping on anyone who dares question them. Oops, I mean question the exec.

[perdmm]

Sobast.
As for the Perth part of your query. There simply was no negotiation, 10.9 or 8.
You were exactly correct with your statement. Depending on what grade you were, you stood to lose approx $6000-8000 a year plus 12 “Z-days” with nothing in return. (Except knowing management were getting huge bonuses and the company were making record profit)

[splashman]

Sobast,

A loss of 6000-8000, change of lifestyle,effect on super,loss of Z day's, all without negotiation.
Big Dick and M thought they could just railroad it through.

Everybody has a agenda, QF has via M..we also have an agenda..basically to give nothing that we have gained away without negotiation and if warrented,compensation. Also to protect our lifestyle, super, flexable Z day's etc.

The ALAEA, through the current exec, is fighting for all of us..slagging them shows that we can be divided.

Everyone gets a vote to express their views and set the direction that we take, but we must, even though we don't agree, abide by the majority.

I have the same feelings as you toward how the MEL vote was carried out,
but I am not about to slag anyone about it. (Maybe because the PER case had not been settled, that it was a way of being able to start from scratch after we knew where we stood, in regards to our ability to act as QF have, by withdrawing from extended hour agreements.) Who know's, I am not in a position to know, didn't like it but hey, maybe there is a bigger picture I can't see.

I just hate how a self centered few, can think they are above the rest of us, blatently undermine us and the rights and conditions that we fought and negotiated for.

We need a strong and united ALAEA to survive.

[The Mr Fixit]

There's a lot of feeling in this topic

My wish is that all LAMEs take the moral high ground and say

:ok: "ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL" :ok:

If another section falls we have no choice but to give away all extended hours rosters (though it would have been preferable to do it after the first fell but I can understand the politics of it and the win in the commission only vilified our stance now we have the AIRC backing to withdraw)

Its time we showed as a UNION that we show we can play hard ball but we must do it smart we don't want to cut off our nose to spite our faces.

Offer the company a deal, come back to the table and put the original rosters back to the membership in MEL BNE and PER and we won't withdraw our consent.

Otherwise.......................:E

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Don't worry guys, apparently you've got another Supervisor from SYD coming over to help GH supplement the shortage of DMMs. This Christian Soldier goes by the name of "The Smear" and he just loves carrying out MEDAs.

Give him hell!!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

Is it Puff Daddy?

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Sorry, haven't heard him called "Puff Daddy". The Smear is only a supervisor but has had a bit of training to do DMMs job. Make sure you guys dot the Is and cross the Ts when he's around.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Is he from SIO,SDO or where the heros of this world live,BASE?

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Base, just like Crusher and the Ginger Ninja were.

[Big Unit]

Bug a lugs. Sorry mate, if working for a living makes me a hero then i better go and get my cape. D1ckhead!!
Dont rope the decent workers in with the 'chosen ones' or anyone else wanting to undermine the perth guys.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Hey there Big Unit

It just seems that there is a disproportionate amount of guys from Base willing to go against their so called mates and step on the blokes in Perth.

So maybe you should say something to those guys who keep going over there,instead of sniping when somebody has something to say here.If I call you Base blokes heros,well if you don't like the tag,do something about it.

Otherwise get out of base and get a life.:ok:

[company_spy]

It just seems that there is a disproportionate amount of guys from Base willing to go against their so called mates and step on the blokes in Perth.

It's because of the "disproportionate" number of back sliders who work there.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Gee company spy,you really know how to wound those Perth blokes.Why don't you tell them what you really think?

Its just that at this present stage,there hasn't been anyone from SDO or SIO wing their way over to Perth to "help out"........

Some guys will do just about anything to get invited for chinese!!!

I hope its worth it for your reputation...............:yuk:

[Hardworker]

The original intention of the 12 hr roster in Perth wasnt to make more $$$ for engineering staff, the basis of it was flexibility and with it costed out against having an 8 or 9.5 hr roster.
The benefits were;
1.High utilisation of exsiting staff licence coverage
2.Better manpower management to cope with training
3.Having a 2 shifts on and 2 shift off - gave you a pool of people available to cover any customer or own major avoinic/mechanical problem AOG
4.Flexibility on relief posting positions due to available staff
5.Greater ease in aquitting outstanding leave requirements
6.Coverage of both International & Domestic operations with flexible workforce and better coverage for network flight times
7.Noticeable less sick leave
8.Less human factor maintenance errors

The were weighted up against the old 8 hr roster and the 9.5 hour roster, which proved to have areas of deficiencies....No leave - high sick leave - poor coverage - excessive overtime to meet operational requirements
All this seems to have gone by the way side now...
Management dont really have any interest in the well being of their staff, they see them not as an asset but a liability that requires to be exploted to the maximum and the fry them when their are errors....

I wonder if the sick leave has increased on the 8 hr roster as compared to the 12 hr?

I wonder if leave is being aquitted like it was on the 12hr?

None of these issues seem to be highlighted by management....

10.9 hour roster in Sydney International? It isnt working - now they are trying to look at a 9.5 hr roster. - try and sell that to SIT, dont think thats going to work....and how will Mr MH look when he has told all the ports that the 10.9 is the ideal roster and its working in SIT (which does have a curfew)
Well looks like everyone will be going back to an 8 hr roster
All I can say is good on you to all my mates in the West....

[company_spy]

Gee company spy,you really know how to wound those Perth blokes.Why don't you tell them what you really think?
Its just that at this present stage,there hasn't been anyone from SDO or SIO wing their way over to Perth to "help out"........
Some guys will do just about anything to get invited for chinese!!!
I hope its worth it for your reputation...............
Settle down there,
It's because of the "disproportionate" number of back sliders who work there.
Would have thought even you Bug-a-lugs would have worked out who I was referring to....... Read the context of the posts.

[FCMC]

:ok:Well said Mr Hardworker-spot on.

Some answers to your questions.

Sick leave has tripled since the 8 hour shift. Its not because guys are being illegitimate its simply there is not enough recovery time. We frequently do 5 days on 1 off and then another 4. Most bugs take a good 3 days to fix so the only way to recover is sick leave.

Leave is accruing at a huge rate. I believe 700 hours a month. They can not afford the required lines in the roster due they cant afford to have us away. We believe the alarm bells have gone off in SYD about us as we approach the end of the financial year.

Also due to our roster inefficiency's we require more training in 747LE/738/A330. (3 shifts require coverage everyday now not 2) Well guess what we cant do it as once again as they cant afford to have us away.
We used to have over 16 lines for leave and training. Now its only 9 and we have over a dozen new staff!!!! ( 9 doesn't even acquit the leave)

:ugh: What a circus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hardworker]

I thought it would revert back to the days prior to the 12hr roster, it was just as bad on the 9.5 when I was there, not enough leave allocations and to work 5 days straight and lets face it, Perth is a busy little airport with very short turnaround times.....
No wonder the sick leave is increasing, throw in cold weather and a bit of wind chill not forgetting all the bugs that come in on all the foreign operators....there goes the recovery time...
Some how I keep thinking that Qantas has a Duty of Care policy....
But I think that translates to do lots of Duty as we dont Care!
You would think an operation that has proven its efficiencies by;
1. First every Australian full intergrated Domestic/International
2. Cost recovery from numerous Foreign operators
3. Remote location and limited resources
4. Flexible workforce covering the operation in AOG situations
would have been more than enough for management to look at and say, hey its working well if we take into the account of sick leave/training/leave
and human resources problems, but no, bring in an outside consultant to review the operation. Pay millions of dollars to these consultants (due to managements inability to manage and see benefits/disadvantages) and have a report saying that 2hr a week overtime built into the 12hr roster is costing you X number of dollars per person...
Then management with the 2hr overtime in their sights overlook every positive to drive a cost saving, not even review or balance the disadvantages against the advantages....
Must be time for a new management team, the likes of M H & his appointed yes boys R H at the SIT must be made accountable and be given the flick!
Its only a matter of time before an incident exceeds this ridiculous cost driven stupidity....engineering is an insurance policy - a last means of defense in the "swiss cheese", but management see it only as an expense
And guess what the 10.9 hr roster at Sydney SIT isnt working either - they are looking at a 9.5 hr roster....well as you can guess the guys will go for the 8hr than be abused into a 9.5....after all R H & Mr M H said the 10.9 hr roster was the template for all Australian stations....proof that it doesnt work and now they have to face the reality and see that one roster doesnt fit all stations.....Where do they find these people...you wouldnt let them manage a shoe store let alone a complex industry with so many variables as aviation!

[Kiwiconehead]

I see in the latest ALAEA newsletter that Melbourne has been ordered onto 8hrs as well as 40 guys getting VR.

Sounds like that will work well, not!

[hannibal lector]

1. yes the DMM's in BNE were asked to stay on the 12 hr roster if the staff were made to do 8 hr rosters. 3 of the 6 said yes. 2 were perth scabs the other an up and coming wolfman
2. the 12 hr roster was negotiated and introduced as both a flexibility arrangement for the company with increased productivity ( 2 hr handover times in 24 hrs rather than 3 etc. ) and a lifestyle arrangement for the LAME's both groups had a win.
3. the current ALAEA executive have finally made decisions for the greater good of the LAME workforce, not for the company so yes some directions are not as good as others but they have the guts to make a decision
4. The scabs going to perth know what they are doing. They are grown intelligent men, what has made them resort to letting down there mates in time of need. This is not the Australian way. The company will **** all over them just like they do to everyone, they will learn.
5. And finally with QF showing that with the APA takeover they could pay a 4.5 BILLION special divedend to the bid partners shows QF are doing better than they have let on. Has GD been lying to staff and shareholders for years. This shows they have enough money to re invest into the future of QF staff like there new ads show. Its time to put your money where your mouth is:ok:

[The masked goatrider]

Sobast -

At the same time in MEL the vote seemed "rigged" the other way. They were voting on rosters for INT,DOM and supers. Each of the 3 areas had to have the same majority one way or the other. That meant that the the smallest group of (I think) 8 had control of the vote. You could have a couple of hundred guys voting one way, but the 8 would override them. Even if only 3 of te 8 voted the other way. NOTE- I'm NOT bagging the supers. It's just the way I see it, the smaller number won the vote because of the way the votes were weighted by the union. Please, if I've got it mixed up, tell me.


Not too far from the truth but management were told that the DMM vote would not have any impact on the two main votes. Both areas Dom and Int needed to pass acceptance of the new rosters before the Asn would agree to the merger and subsequent rosters. Nothing rigged just a union taking care of the needs of it's entire membership.

You see in the past Qantas have divided smaller groups and played off one dept against another. The Asn and it's past leadership allowed this but the new Executive will stand by their members in a united front.

[lordofthewings]

what was the outcome of the big M visiting perth this week..how can DH still be employed after his recent acts(vwww.voxengineer.com) for those that have not heard..when are we all going on the 8 hr roster to teach these fu..ers a lesson.starting to wear thin on all this BS, especially when the company is making record profits based on the dedication of the employees..Managers pull your heads out of each others asses and wake up \to yourselves....Its not you that keeps this airline running, its everyone..Sorry if i sound pissed, i am, a few tooheys extra drys will do this to you...

[acslame]

I am hearing that M is going to appeal the DMM decision before the
full bench of the commission. The fight continues.
To anyone thinking of coming over to "help" DON'T.
All you are doing is prolonging the madness here.
If you want to help stay at home!!!!!!!!!!!

[chemical alli]

so now i hear after the alaea win ,that they have agreed to a roster committee,to sort out the perth fiasco,sounds like exec of old stall stall stall all the while the poor perth lames pay.i hope that this extension on extension of forcing the dmm to the 8hr roster pays off.if i were in perth,(which i am not) i would be a little pissed by know on how long this battle is taking.maybe its time to bury the hatchet and get on with it either way peoples livelyhood at risk and all

[The masked goatrider]

Yeh whats wrong with you Perth guys, why don't you give management what they want you're only hurting yourselves. Cave in. Make M the hero. Resign from your union and leave your wives.

[NAS1801]

maybe its time to bury the hatchet and get on with it either way peoples livelihood at risk and all Why does it not surprise me that you have said this? People need to stand up for the conditions they have, not give them up for some arse kissing managers bonus. Get a grip.

[mahatmacoat]

For all that don't know

At 5 minutes to 5PM yesterday the ALAEA were served with a truck load of documents from Qantas. The appeal to the full bench at the AIRC starting next Wednesday. Papers served the same day that the union, in good faith, put out a notice allowing an extension before the DMMs are forced to the 8 hour shift on 1 July.

M you will fall on that sword you ungrateful, dishonest and arrogant piece of crap. Get the hell out of our state and never come back. Send any more of your little boys over and they will be treated just the same as you would be if you stepped foot on our tarmac. If you had support from anyone here it is now gone. :D

[Anulus Filler]

HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF ON THE ALAEA
M you will fall on that sword you ungrateful, dishonest and arrogant piece of crap. Get the hell out of our state and never come back. Send any more of your little boys over and they will be treated just the same as you would be if you stepped foot on our tarmac. If you had support from anyone here it is now gone.
M comes to Perth and craps on about not worrying about history...Yea sure:}
Again a lesson lived that we never learned...... Why has the association allowed the extension? What good faith do you negotiate with these diseased dogs?
Too many times we have been flexible only to be screwed again. You can count me as the first NO vote in your next extended hours roster...21 'NO' votes to go...:ok:

[FCMC]

Point taken Anulus Filler (great name) but you must admit the ALAEA have not allowed that much of an extension.They must show they are trying to negotiate in case they go back to the Commission.They must prove there not shutting the door on the company. Wise! They have barely allowed 2 weeks before the new roster committee presents the re wrapped roster and if ticked will be implemented by the 7th July.They insisted who was on the committee and if you notice its 2 of the most anti management types you can get and obviously the best pick for us. M wanted new guys with a hope they towed the company line.I hope for everyones sake M is genuine in his words of moving forward. I think his recent appeal is independent of whats happening in Perth. VP Watsons decision has serious implications for all departments in QF. If this roster fails it will be the end of Perth Engineering.All will be revieled in 2 weeks!

[Mobi LAME]

I don't know if this will help in getting a positve resolution for the Perth guys, but it may help in applying the heat. Many years ago when my union was negotiating an award the boss at the time remarked how they were very worried about the cost of leave entitlements being carried over to the new pay rates. The Union Secretary's reply was swift and to the point. If the company desired to force workers take excessive annual leave it would have the full support of the union. His reasoning was that annual leave was a hard won condition and it should be used for the benefit of the workers and their families. Most awards or EBAs will have a clause relating to when an employee may take leave with the words 'mutually agreed' being in there somewhere. Excessive Annual Leave was considered to be leave not taken within 12 months of the employees anniversary date. Thus, with an annual leave entitlement of 190 hrs, an employee could have the 190hrs from his previous year plus up to 190hrs accruing in his current year. Over 380 hrs is excessive and the company could send the employee off whether they wanted to go or not. This may seem harsh but it is a two edged sword. Employers cannot refuse to allow employees to acquit excessive annual leave at a time of the employee's choosing. In fact I seem to remember it being said it was against industrial law to accrue too much leave! Anybody from the ALAEA Executive reading that would care to do some research?

[mahatmacoat]

Mobi LAME - The ALAEA are already on to the annual leave problem. They have raised it with the AIRC at conciliation stage which is the last step before arbitration. Legals are also challenging the rejection of LSL.

Anulus - The ALAEA have extended the deadline for DMMs to go to the roster by 12 days so it fits in with a pay period. The goodwill gesture and notice will be more than helpful when the appeal is in court to show that the union is reasonable.

[YesTAM]

The "five minutes to five PM" is an old lawyers trick to ruin your weekend, and screw you over just a little more. It's been done to me, and it basically tells you that you are dealng with a bunch of snakes.

It would appear to me that the approach of Qantas is;

1. Return to an eight hour roster.

2. Apply AWA's and roll overtime/shift penalties/ etc. into one hourly rate.

3. Work you whatever hours they want to work you, whenever they like.

That means scheduling/delays/etc. don't impact their bottom line. If the aircraft turns up for maintenance three hours late, it still costs them exactly the same to get you monkeys to fix it....

I would assume the AWA would contain all the goodies Johnny Howard built in. Lets see.......

Annual Leave to be taken only at the company's discretion.

Financial Bonds for training, or perhaps a special "training wage", or you pay for it yourself.

Perhaps "incentives" not to join a union.... The list is endless, and onlly limited by the creativity and malevolence of the snakes you are dealing with.

[chemical alli]

once again we walk straight into another good faith approach ,when will we learn ? enough is enough if m wants the reduced shifts q wide lets give it to him.to the alaea call for the 8 hr australia wide and lets support the perth guys

[acslame]

I just had a good laugh at the stratergy map screen saver.
The bridge of trust , what a joke!!!

It is a dangerous bridge to cross with that troll M living underneath
waiting to snatch up the unwary

Much safer in pity city!!

Hey DC Money well spent D**KHEAD.
Wonder how much equipment we could have bought
with the money they wasted on that little number.

Hey M no one trusts you because all you have done is lie
to your workforce, the commission and to other departments.

You are a disgrace and more and more people are seeing it

[Long Bay Mauler]

What a bunch of low life snakes!!!

What a crock of you know what with Murrays letter stating that there was "respectful" discussions held in Perth between them and the ALAEA.

Well now that the company has decided to appeal the AIRC decision,they have lost all resepect now.If I were a Perth LAME,I wouldnt be doing anything to help these knobs.Just go to work,do your work in the 8 hours alloted to you,and then go home.And if they ring you,to fix a break down or for manpower requirements,tell them 'NO',you are not available to do anything except what you are paid to do,within your contractual obligations.Nothing more,and nothing less.

This decision to appeal the ruling just shows how much respect Murray has for Perth Lames and Lames in general.None,zipp,nothing.Thats it.And if you believe that life will get better with him around,think again.He is a head kicker,and a bloody good one at that.You have to give the man credit,he is punching well for his weight,but we Lames will just have to keep punching harder.

I think its time the association calls every port to a mass meeting and ask for a general consensus as to whether we are going to support the Perth boys properly.Its time to tell the company that we are a single entity,and that as LAMEs who work the 12 hr roster,that we now ALL want to work an 8hr roster and IMMEDIATELY.

This is similar to being bashed up in the street.If you saw your mates being bashed,you would naturally run over and get stuck in.Well,how is this any different.Just because Perth is on the other side of the country,doesnt mean they are in another country(although they do act funny sometimes)and that their problem is not our problem.But what is going on over there,will ultimately have an effect on us over here.We have got to be strong about it and ask for the 8 hr roster to apply to all LAMEs,EVERYWHERE.Thats it.And if they say they will lock us out,or sack us enmasse,well let them do it,because where are they going to get all the new LAMES and AMEs from.There are not enough AMEs or apprentices coming out of their time to cover any short fall.And if they think that having 4 jumbos sit on the fence,because there is not enough hangar space in OZ to fix their aircraft,well not having enough AMES/LAMES in the Australian industry should really make people like Geoff and the board really take notice.And if they think they will just mass recruit again overseas,well do you think the Australian government and the public opinion is going to really be best pleased that we are now importing engineers from O/S.Just what QANTAS needs now is more bad publicity like a whole in the head.

Anyway enough ranting,it saddens me that people like GD and MH,in the pursuit of running a successful airline,feel the need to hurt those people within their company more than their opposition.All most people want is to be left to make the right decisions,and have good support from management to help make this a great place to work and feel proud of.Unfortunately they have confused us with uneducated people who like to be pushed around.Well the opposite is true.

Have a good weekend.

[acslame]

Good luck in the commission tomorrow boys.
A lot rides on it

[Big Unit]

How did you perth boys go in the commish yesterday.

[chemical alli]

dont know how the boys went in the commish but just recieved my eba voting slip, marked one for immediate action,lets go back to 8hr ,no higher duties and work to rule i say .forget the upcoming election because its less than a fifty/fifty ,even if rudd wins do you really think much will change. time to stick it to gd ,M and cronnies

[domo]

good on ya ali
reminds me of the rush to war in 1914, lets give the kaiser a bloody nose, it will all be over by christmas 1914,
if any of the poor sods were alive in 1917
i wonder did they regret they the rush to total war

[chemical alli]

I think they gave him more than a bloody nose if history serves me well
exactly how long would you like to wait for your eba ?

[domo]

whats the goal 3% or 5%
3% should be offered without trade offs
5% maybe with trade off
I hear average pay rises are 4% this year 8% in mining

[blackhander]

higher duties and o/t a good place to start. short term pain for hopefully finally some gain

[Vnavtwo]

The commision gave Qf leave to appeal the decision regarding the DMM roster and it remains to be seen what will happen here.
It is a bit unusual with the current co-operation between ACS and the LAME's that they seem to want to persue this appeal.

No agreement has yet been reached regarding any new roster.
Don't sell yourselves short until there is an agreement.
We have only reached this position now because the action to date has been effective.

[N.E.R.D.]

10.9 and 12 hr on offer so far. what's wrong with the old roster?
perth closes down between 2am and 5am, why not 11.4 shifts?:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[FCMC]

Spoke to one of the guys on the Perth Roster Committee tonight.

The correct hours are actually 2x 12hr shifts and 2x 11.5hrs shifts=(12 Z days) as opposed to the previous Lighthouse calculated 2x 12hr & 2x 10.9 shifts. A breakdown of calculations! This will be fixed early next week. Lighthouse and QF Management are being very helpful in the process apparently and all working together nicely. They tell me M & DH are very supportive of a new 4on 4off roster.

For anyone out there who thinks Perth shuts down between 0200-0500.Can I please remind you.
0230 QF Cairns arrival.
0245 Garuda
0230-0330 Brunei Transit
0430 QF Jakarta Arrival then first flights of the day starts at
0525.

There is no closing down!Its a really busy place.

[Bolty McBolt]

The correct hours are actually 2x 12hr shifts and 2x 11.5hrs shifts=(12 Z days) as opposed to the previous Lighthouse calculated 2x 12hr & 2x 10.9 shifts. A breakdown of calculations!

What rosters have been offered up under the current cease fire or calm before the storm.I don't think the solution offered above is the end of this due to what MH goals were in changing the roster in the first place.

My impression that MH wants the Z days out as they are a bourdon on manpower planning/cost and wants a lower shift loading .
So the answer is a roster with a lower average shift loading no Z days.
A 4 on 5 off 12 hour covers the need but has been rejected before as has the 10.9 hour 4 on 4 off.

The threat that MH is willing to drop the MAS contract approx $6 mil a year to save $1.9 mil does not add up so I would not lower my guard yet :ugh:

[Hardworker]

So it has almost come full circle. back to a 12hr roster! How stupid does MH look, the mans a goose! No idea of how a line station operates, especially a 24hr operation....So who is going to do the costings on the increase in manpower to try and make the 8hr roster work?
What about all the guys they employed to make the 8 hr roster work?
I love hearing these contract threats - like it the guys who work and do the foreign operator on the coal face - it their fault, what a load of rubbish - totally mismanaged by so called managers who can't make a decision to save themselves!
It's about time the spot like was put on how much this has cost and the damage it has done to the station at Perth.
Lets face it - the place has ran for the last 12-15 years on the 12hr roster - sure they have been short on manpower but have made it work thru the co-operative nature of all the guys...
How do you win back their confidence now?
Management are very much like SUBARU's
Imprezza- out to impress upper management...
Well looks like MH has shown how little experience and understanding of the
operation of line maintenance engineering he really has....we are all DOOMED
As I said politely - what a Goose!

[perdmm]

Does anyone know if MEL. INT. went to the 8 hour.

[Hardworker]

Yes Mel are on an 8 hour roster....the threat of dropping contracts has appeared again from MH.....Goose!

[perdmm]

I would love to know who taught “M” his business management skills.
I have never heard of the theory, “if you want to make more profit… you start to get rid of customers and contracts”. I thought it was the other way round.
We should all let M get rid of all the customers because I thing upper management would soon get rid of him.

[FCMC]

Big M/SP/DH and a few of the ALAEA boys are all having a meeting today in Perth to decide our future. Hopefully common sense will prevail and we will all get back to normal but if not Perth ACS will not remain the way it is. Its unsustainable and Plan C or D or whatever there up too now will come into affect. The customers will go and we will wind down. Lets don't go there.
Best of luck boys and no matter what we know you gave it your best shot.

Anyone know how the 8 hr is going at MEL ITB. Worth a new thread?

[FCMC]

Im pleased to report it appears Perth has had a Win/Win for all.
They tell me M & DH were playing very nicely at the meeting and have endorsed the 12/11.5hr 4on/4off roster offered to them. Its now up to the guys to vote on it shortly.Z days have been preserved!

Congratulations to all those involved from the ALAEA and the reps to the Roster Committee.Some very clever and upstanding people have been involved with this process. To Borat and Mini Me, look out as your world is going to be a lot different.Respect is something you wont know about for a long time.
To M & DH thanks for taking it on the chin and allowing us all to get on with it!. It will be some time but Perth will be a great station once again.

[Anulus Filler]

Over 7 months of this crap and this is what it came down to... When times are tough you get to learn a lot about the people you work with. Mini me, borat,more suck, ray of sunshine, bin tan,pekker and even the odd south afro should hang your heads in shame. You will not be forgotten no matter how many times we work/talk/eat with you. You sc@bbed out on the greater majority of the good men(+1 good woman) to put your self interests first...Hope you never need to depend on us. It might get pretty lonely if you do.:=
A special thanks to all those fly in hero DMM's from ADL,BNE,SYD. Hope that all the sucking will get you somewhere. Just don't try and justify it with your fellow co-workers . Fact is that you are SC@BS. Stay home next time you F%#%ing dogs.
Base servicing....unfortunately a few bad apples gave this section an A+ in M's eyes. Any time you're paddling up sh!t creek, some of these guys will help by pulling out the bung plug. Watch out MEL INT for the fly ins....

[domo]

the battle for perth is over the battle for melbourne is about to begin
(apolgies to churchill)

[Hardworker]

So after stuffing the station up for the past many months, Perth is now almost back to where it started from?
Where do these guys get off?
Is it power craziness or some sort of disease?
What an absolute was to time money and resources, not to mention the amount of damage Big M has done to the guys in Perth. The morale and goodwill must be shot to pieces by now.
Its ironic when you see this sort of stuff happen and then management say you can trust us - just goes to show, no matter how well something is operating, efficiently and cost affectively, someone has to try and big note themselves..
To all the SUBARU's that flew over from BNE and SYD to assist in the shafting of the fellow engineers in PER, hope your asslicking pays off....

[acslame2]

I will never forget DMM mini-me (some refer to him as slimey). After he started peddling this 10.9 crap 12 months ago, it is now quit clear he loves the idea of sacrificing 70 co-workers to benefit himself. Telling your “so called mates” to go off the 12 hour shift when you had no intention of going off the 12 hour yourself.

More Suck, if management told you to dive headfirst into a fire, we all know you would do it without question. You’re a DMM, you need to learn to think and if something is not right or not fair, you need to stand up.

Borat, we will never forget what you did and what you said. Enjoy the bed you made.

We now know why management gave VR to 3 of the old DMM’s a year ago. They needed some spineless snakes in the position so they could screw the troops. Only one DMM was able to stand up for what was right…and we thank him.

Luckily it looks like MEL have DMM’s of a much higher standard. Good luck MEL.

[The Mr Fixit]

ACSLAME2 or should I say Nostradamus

The boys in MEL tell me M just retrenched the foremen and replaced them with PUPPETS :eek:

It is amazing that ability to do the job, competency, knowledge and experience HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH LEADERSHIP, THESE DAYS YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SCREW YOUR WORKMATES.:mad:

I wonder whether the MEL boys will treat them as they deserve or just suck up TIME WILL TELL

To some of the guys who missed out I know you and feel for you, being loyal, diligent and responsible carry no weight with the idiots in charge :D

Man I'm startin to hate the place I've called home for 20 years I hear JHAS is offering mmmmmmmmm food for thought.

By the by how come men off the floor were allowed to apply in the first place surely that's a deliberate slap in the face for the seniors in MEL in fact why would you ever do the job again :*

[Long Bay Mauler]

Ok guys,what was the result of the ballot in Perth?

Was the ballot to be held today in regards to your new roster?

Congratulations to all those guys involved in maintaining the rage and not bending in the face of such a hostile stance by MH and DH.

Just shows that a modern engineering outfit such as Qantas cannot survive without overtime being done by the present staff,because ultimately the management dont have the correct staffing levels needed to carry out the work being asked of it.

Well done Perth LAMEs/AMEs for making management realise that they have to at least give guys some dignity if they are truely seeking a working relationship with their workers.It just can't always be take,take and take with no give in return.:ok:

[Anulus Filler]

The result is that the 12/11.5 hour shift has been voted in by the members of PER. We thank all involved for the work and dedication put in to this compromise.
I can assure management that they will be paying for this in the many years to come. They will not be forgotten for the way they have treated us. Just watch the delays that will come your way.... You f@cked with something that worked so that you could line your own pockets with bonuses.Shame on you and the sc@bs that feed you.

[FCMC]

:D Fantastic news and reportedly only just got over the line. The persuasive powers of the committee and ALAEA reps appears to have worked. I know I changed my vote to a YES at the deathknock after 1 of the roster guys convinced me. Great outcome and hopefully management will know to discuss with us first next time. HOW MUCH HAS THIS REALLY COST YOU M?

[The Mr Fixit]

Good things come to those who wait

Oh My !!!

I'm proud to be associated with men that have integrity.

Please spread this eastwards Sandgropers.

The croweaters, aerial ping pong players and bumsniffers need some backbone.

[Bolty McBolt]

Hooray
Good win for the troops.
Does this mean PER engineering are going start doing some work again as before this dispute or are they to continue the excuse mongering...
Dons flack jacket and climbs into fox hole :ok:

[FCMC]

The implementation of the Perth roster has stalled. The agreement and vote amongst all was July. The company has now stated at least 6 more weeks. They said SP hasnt signed the documents but of course he hasn't seen them because JM of QF hasn't produced them!!!
They now say the payoffice can't gear up in time, we know they were ready a month ago and who can forget that they geared up for the 8 hour in a week and kept up with over 500 changes for the weeks after.LIES LIES LIES. Do not trust these people!!!!!!:ugh:
Im not sure where we are going now but its not looking good!THEY ARE PLAYING MORE GAMES!!!!!

If you are in negotiations with any QF management DO NOT TRUST THEM!!!!!!!

[domo]

payback for the ch 7 story?

[shazza26]

Is QF Engineering In Perth Hiring Engineers now that the roster has been sorted????

[The Mr Fixit]

If you have an 'A' type licence from EASA perhaps

[FCMC]

The new Perth Roster starts next Wednesday and all appears well.
Still amazing the pay office requires 6 weeks to implement it!!!
Big D from SYD is coming over to look after us on the same day and
Big DH is on leave for a long time!

Thats cool but can someone rescue us from Dmm KG from SYD currently
doing 24 hours a week O/T to keep the PER operation going.
To say useless is simply not enough!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where do they get these guys from. Hes as bad as that MT guy from BNE.
Surely there is a Committee in SYD that needs him back!
Come on, help us out boys. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[company_spy]

There was committee formed, it was how to get him out of Sydney. I'm sure he's doing a great job over there, so you're quite welcome to keep him for as long as posible. :E

[FCMC]

Company Spy:=
That just isn't fair! :{You play hardball.Why should we have your rejects
after our 8 months of torture!
We will form the biggest Committee ever and send him back!
or we could join forces and he could go to MEL. :E

Please take him back,please. Shout you a beer.

[Twitter n Bisted]

If you want to get KG on your side find someone in the PER ranks to give him the special hand shake. grippers rule :ugh:
But it would be great if you guys could keep him as he is not missed....:ok:

[U.K. SUBS.]

Twitter are you suggesting freemasonary is alive and well at the senior management at QE?. That could go a long way in explaining the type of bosses we have.......a boys club.....but then haven't QF always had them?

[FCMC]

Oh you SYD guys are good. We have KG again!!!!!:{
How did you do that, because theres absolutely no reason for him
to be here. We actually have a surplus of manpower now with the
12 hour shift and lots of guys willing to do the acting DMM.

But they weren't asked were they because DM needs a drinking buddy
and MH needs to give both of them a jolly for a while before there next mission!!!!

[Long Bay Mauler]

Well done to SP and all those involved in the win with the Full Bench decision concerning the right of the ALAEA to withdraw from an agreement the same as QANTAS.

You blokes stuck to your guns,and won.This was an important decision for not just the boys in the West,but for ALL us LAMEs in QF.

Now that the West has been won,hopefully you will have many more decisions heading your way.:ok:

[fordran]

Qantas shafted by the AIRC I can't beleive it!!!!!!

http://www.airc.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2007aircfb747.htm

The Commissioners must be scrambling for positions on the new Labour appointed board.

[Talkwrench]

Congratulations to the executive on the result of the AIRC full bench appeal regarding the perth 12 hour roster. 2007 is turning out to be a good year all round! And its not over yet! Well done to the perth guys too for showing all the members that unity and tenacity do eventually pay dividends.

[tomcat264]

Maybe if engineers & rampies thought more about safety & listened to safetey officers on the ramp things would be safer.

[Anulus Filler]

Congratulations to the executive on the result of the AIRC full bench appeal regarding the perth 12 hour roster. 2007 is turning out to be a good year all round! And its not over yet! Well done to the perth guys too for showing all the members that unity and tenacity do eventually pay dividends.
Isn't it strange that after 2 weeks we still haven't heard anything from Q management. Nothing...Zip. After every loss that the ALAEA had in the IRC, M or Cox-head had a letter to all staff within about 30 seconds of the decision.(The draft was already made-just change the date and title).
Is it possible that they are trying to still write up a response some 2 weeks later and they still can't come up with the words to describe this very unusual situation. How can it be that Q lose in the AIRC? It just doesn't make sense. :ouch: They said this would never happen.
FFFFFFFAAAAAARRRRRKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!