Tough choice???

[Gull]

Greetings all
I would greatly appreciate some input on the following dilema:

If you were lucky enough to have the choice of a job with Cathay (DEFO freight in USA) OR a position as FO with Continental airlines, which would you pick. If possible, please include some explanation of your choice.

Of course this is a hypothetical question, but one which may ace several US based pilots if they wish to apply to both (both are hiring).
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[hog tied]

Continental
No comparison. There are many threads on this subject, comparing CX to FEDEX, etc. and they apply here. Search them, and you will find the answer. Don't try to compare pay, aircraft, schedules, etc. These items will not differ enough to counter the intangible huge difference in quality of life you will get when working at these two companies. Trust me.

[Sike]

I assume you have been employed by Continental and know that you will bank $30000 your first year and will have no health insurance for 6 months?

[hog tied]

Yep, much about your first year at CAL needs improvement. I guess you have to weigh one year against your entire career.

[cpdude]

I would go to CX as a DEFO freighter for 2-3 years while waiting for a UPS/FEDEX job. CX is good quick cash with nice machines but too frustrating for a long career.

US pax airlines are not secure enough IMO. Pay/benefit reductions make the first several years tough.

How is that regretCX?:eek:

[CXdreamer]

"CX is good quick cash with nice machines but too frustrating for a long career."

>> CPdude, can you elaborate this statement ? What is so frustrating ?

Thanks.

[cpdude]

It's just like Google bud! Search this forum and you'll get a thousand hits.:bored:

[stilton]

I am a Captain for Continental, and have a family member who had a long career with Cathay.

I also have friends working at Cathay now.

After 20 years here at CAL I can say uneqivocally, go for CX.

CAL will never come close to matching their compensation, benefits and opportunities.

Every airline has it's share of hassles and hoops you have to jump through. If they make it worthwhile and I think CX does, just put your head down, be a professional and make the most of it.

Cal still has many problems and huge deficiencies with with their pilot contract not being addressed by a divided union membership.

Cal managements attitude wth contract noncompliance is 'sue us if you don't like it'

Things will only worsen in the next downturn, whereas Cathay seems to weather economic storms very well.

Good luck.

[hog tied]

Sorry, brother, I hate to disagree. EVERYONE complains about their work... it is after all a four letter word. There will ALWAYS be aspects to hate and whine about. The management will ALWAYS look to maximize profits, and this will frequently oppose a pilot's welfare in the form of pay and bennies. These are universals true to ALL airline jobs.

I will say one last time: the aircraft, pay, schedules, and opportunities at CX are great. But they look artificially greater when viewed from the eyes of those already working at a major in the US. This is because the paradigm with which they are viewed is completely different than that which will be assumed once you leave the good old USA. There is no schedule bidding system. Do not underestimate the the value of choosing when you work, and when you are off (I know seniority dictates this, but I am talking an entire career with very little control over your life). The biggest disparity comes when you actually experiece the culture. At CX, you will never truly leave your work at the door. There is an air of intimidation not just from management, but within from the training system as well. Biases in many forms exist, and this is considered normal. You CAN NOT (pun intended) assign a dollar value to this, it is as they say "PRICELESS". To put it more accurately, the cost is infinite.

Is CX a good job? Yep. If given the choice between it and a good US major (even a pax airline!), take the latter.

[stilton]

Hog Tied.
There is no real bidding system at CAL now either.
We now have the 'PBS' system (stands for preferential 'bidding' system) preferential to management that is.

Every pilot enters their wish list of choices from among dozens of parameters and the computer 'builds' you a line usually around 90 hours of 'hard' flight time.Often the computer will disregard your preferences for unknown or obscure reasons. You certainly cannot count on certain days / weekends off.
There are no longer preconstructed lines of time.

Most people dislike PBS, it really places complete control of your schedule with management, with little or no ability to trade your awarded trips due to chronic and deliberate understaffing.
It is rather like putting the whole airline on reserve, management loves it as thay can manipulate the schedules for the lowest cost but it is a big disadvantage in quality of life over our previous system for most of our pilots.

So, your schedule is flown as given to you. As far as intimidation is concerned, we do not lack for that either, with management constantly pushing or breaking contract limits. Sounds a bit like Cathay, but without the pay and benefits..

[rjmore]

I look at it this way. EVERY major US pax airline has furloughed at one time or another except maybe SWA and I am not sure about that. It really depends, if you got on with CAL within the last two years or maybe within the next year you might be safe when the next wave comes by. During a big hiring push like this, if you get on at the end of it, say hello to being junior for a long long time. When the inevitable furlough happens again ( about ten years from the last one) you might be safe if you got on at the right time.

The only safe havens in the USA right now seem to be UPS, FedEx, and SWA. If they haven't called then the choice is pretty clear. For me, it was about flexibility with where we wanted to live. I like variety and CX has it. I want to fly international trips and CX has it. I did not want to cross my fingers and hope no one gets sick in the six months I did not have insurance or go broke paying COBRA on my first year pay.

FedEx, no argument, great career choice. Same with UPS. SWA is great but it is all domestic which fits some but not others. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence no matter what you do.

We all long for the good old days in the US airline world. Unfortunately, those days have been gone since the late seventies from what I understand yet we continue to hold out hope. In the US, it is all about who can do it cheaper so there will continue to be the JB's of the world. Of course now Virgin America has labelled themselves an ULCC, ULTRA low cost carrier!!! It's only going to get worse until the industry forces itself into ruin and re-regulation.

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

I have those two choices right now, and I just can't bring myself to take the job where it will take approximately 4 years to make what the other pays in the first year, no medical ins. for 6 months, over the one that also includes a 7% raise annually plus an additional 15.5% of base pay as retirement... and to top it all one is extremely unstable and unpredictable with no cushion margin as opposed to the other which is at the other extreme of the scale. The US airline industry will certainly enter a spiral far worse than the one after 9/11 if any terrorism event were to happen, and ALL of these new jobs will be furloughed and then some in that case in short order. And that's quite a possibility since we are relying on a security system designed and run by a bunch of two bit morons from the top to bottom.

Don't get me wrong, I've worked for Continental and United for a total of 12yrs as an AMT and both of these airlines have considerable sentimental value for me to this day and I have many many friends that still work there as pilots as well. But if you think you will be anywhere close to happy, respected or regarded at any of the real pax majors in the US (United, American, Delta, Continental) you will be in for a rude shock when you get there as many of the ones I know who work for them will warn you. Nearly all of the US pax carriers treat their employees like sh!t to put it mildly. The absolute lack of respect and regard in every aspect is outragous. There are few exeptions such as FEDEX, UPS, SWA.

I have to agree with the previous post regarding FEDEX & UPS yes but otherwise they don't compare no matter how I look at it.

Remember that we are far worse off now in terms of financial health, and it will all go down the tube a lot faster than the last time! And then ask yourself... Where would you rather be in a few years from now when... not if, but when the next pile of sh!t hits the fan in the US either in the form of a terrorit attack, economic down turn or another war??? NOBODY has the financial cushion they had back in 2001, not the airlines not the government. Bankruptcies and furloughs in the thousands will come in a matter of months this time.

I'd rather work for a non-US airline, not wholly depandant on this market and with a huge cash cushion to ride it out.

If I'm wrong, please tell me all about it.

[hog tied]

No one knows what the future holds. Any choice you make may very well turn out to be wrong. CAL may furlough, merge, fall off the face of the planet, who knows. CX MAY be a safer bet there, but who really knows? The only guarantee in the airline business is that things will change, and sometimes drastically. CX has never furloughed the way they do in the US, where you sit fat, dumb, and happy (often complaining at full tilt) and then the axe strikes...wham! It's not personal, and it usually isn't permanent. It's a crappy business decision with no individual target. You go down in seniority, and it may very well be a life changing event.

Well, CX doesn't furlough, it selectively fires or runs people off the property. You will not fall as a group, but as an individual. I have seen so many great people fall here with my own eyes that it is really unbelievable. In fact, the topic of conversation (especially on the freighter!) in public groups at some point always turns to who/what/when screwed up their latest PC, failed their interview, has a big target on their back, you name it. These conversations DO NOT occur like this in companies like FEDEX,UPS,SWA, etc. People are not pushed out, and they DO NOT voluntarily leave. Sure there are always some very rare cases who do resign for various personal reasons or are fired for extremely egregious (usually criminal) behaviors.... did I say rare?! You might think it would be a good thing that cx gets rid of rotten apples, but the guys I have seen were far from it. When you work here you will look around and see this, and understand why no one is safe.

I say talk to people at CAL and find out how many are leaving. Compare that to CX, and you might get a clearer picture on which way to go. Here's my two cents for what you paid for them. If you go to CAL you will often think "maybe I should have gone to Cathay, I wonder how that would have been". If you go to Cathay you will often think " Fu@k, I wish I had gone to Continental!!"

[junior_man]

If you are interested in living overseas, Cathay. If you don't want to leave the US, maybe CAL.

Otherwise, Cathay.

[Numero Crunchero]

joining CX isnt a life sentence. If you dont like it you can always leave. I guess the same thing could be said about CAL but the pay difference suggests it would be better to try CX first.

We have never really had any reliable roster bidding until the last 2 years. Even so, we are not building whole lines. You can bid for lifestyle choices, such as work stacking to get days off, or you can bid for specific trips. SO really not much control.

On the 777 or Airbus fleets, as FO or CN you will have great variety of flying as you could be doing tpe return one day and then new york the next. You can be based in the US/Europe/Oz/NZ if you want to and there are slots available. I think that variety keeps CX interesting.

At the end of the day, CX wants/needs guys and gals to get their command. From some of the bellyaching you read on PPRUNE you would wonder if anyone actually passes here! I dont have exact figures(unusual for me;-) but I know the command pass rate got much better in the second half of the year...over 80% I think?

I remember a QF mate telling me many years ago that they had a 100% failure rate for a while on their 9month command courses. So I guess can look to its oneworld partners when seeking "worst practice" changes;-)

[CAN-NOT!!]

We have never really had any reliable roster bidding until the last 2 years

BUYERS BEWARE:

NO BIDDING allowed at Cathay Pacific. You will be assigned a schedule each month and this system has been in place as long as CX been around! This system of not allowing you to choose what/where you fly actually works well for them as they can squeeze the crew more and also serves a great retaliation tool when you call in sick!

Don't believe one word of the post above by NC. He is CX management!

[Numero Crunchero]

So dont believe a word I say in the previous post....that therefore means that joining CX is a lifetime sentence;-) And if you dont like it you cannot leave;-) So I guess you and regretcx are screwed then!

Cannot, I think you and I have different understandings of what bidding means in terms of rostering. I bid for either lots of days off (lifestyle) or I can bid for specific flights or I can bid for particular days off. Under the system we have now I think we are almost all supposed to get our first preference, and if there is any conflict with anothers bid, it goes on seniority. Once all the first bids are filled or rejected, they look at all the 2nd bids etc etc.

So by my australian reasoning, we are bidding for some parts of our roster. The rest is simply allocated. If you make no bids it will be completely allocated. Now what is it about this system that makes you declare we have "NO bidding allowed in CX"?

By the way, me management...roflmao. I am simply a line driver that enjoys his job. Must be hard to accept that anyone could be happy in CX without some hidden agenda hey cannot?!

[cpdude]

Actually NC, I believe they currently only handle looking at the first bid. It's not a great system but better than no bid at all.;)