Flight Schools Australia

[shilpa]

I went to TVSA in Melbourne, Australia.
What a terrible school!!!!!
The length of the course and the cost of the course is completely different to advertised (it takes longer as they dont have the resources for the amount of students there and the cost can be up to 100% more than advertised). The school is very unprofesional and the students there are miserable as they are treated very disrespectfully and are subject to racist remarks and other verbal abuse on a regular basis. I could go on but youve probably got the idea by now!
Im writing this as I really wish I'd read this before I signed up to the school and would love to stop potential students from making the same mistake that i did.
I was at the school for 17 months, in this time I spent $45,000 and only got an outside of controlled airspace private licence. In the end I had to just cut my losses and leave, so now I want to stop others going there.
Happy flying!

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

$45K for an OCTA PPL????? how many hours did they string you along for?

[pilotezulu]

probably didn't get a refund. if im not wrong, you should legally be able to get the balance back, of all the Avgas $$ you didn't burn.

$45k is a pretty big hit.

[787 Captain]

Sorry, a bit off topic and probably sounds like an ignorant question, but what is an OCTA PPL? I heard someone mention it the other day. Is this just if you did not fly in CTA in a PPL test? That's all I can think it could mean. But I'm a bit puzzled at the moment. :confused:

787 Captain

[2p!ssed2drive]

i understand what he's saying.

my first flight school was in SA and was an integrated uni course with a flying school... (by now you should have guessed which one it is)

spent about 35-40k on a private licence and had about 95 hours. ridiculous!!low hour instructors, no standardization, swapping instructors every flight. changed schools as soon as I had the PPL. Best thing I did. went to a country aiport (one man band) and did the CPL and ME-CIR - loved it!

don't let them rip you off... do the research. In my very humble opinion, the smaller flying schools are much better. Remember you are a paying customer. make sure you're getting what you pay for.

PM me if you need any more advice.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I agree, they are lucky to have you spend thousnds at their school, not the other way around. If they try to stick you with another instructor so he can fill his hour quota for the week, tell them where to go! I was at one of those school as a private student (not on a uni course) and with about 1 or 2 flights to go until my CPL test, they wanted to stick me with a grade 3? ? ?

Don't let them bully you around, and if I were you I shilpa I'd be talking to someone about getting atleast part of your money back, if you havn't already.

[WilliamOK]

TVSA run the cadet program don't they?

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

Yeah... “if your LUCKY we'll take your $60k and you WILL be grateful for it"

I think they had a good reputation a while back for putting out a good product, not too sure what the caliber of fresh CPL is like now though.

[tealady]

Hey Shilpa, you forgot to tell everyone you had at least 58 hours of command time, passed all your CPL theory, completed an IREX course , flew quite a few hours dual in the arrow and around 8 hours of NVFR training, if you're the lass from the UK. If you are the person I think you are, you are the one who left not having completed your solo time with no notice. As for racist comments - get a life!
CP Adi: What course is $60,000.00? All students pay to a fee schedule spreading the course payments over a 6 to 8 month period. Students DO NOT do aircraft maintenance but are taught the appropiate trouble shooting to refer back to a LAME or to carry out pilot approved maintenance. New Instructors? Apart from the two newbies who passed the tests last week, all of our Instructors have a minimum of 1000 hours Instructing experience

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

A PPL, 58hrs command, CPL theory and IREX = $45,000? :eek:
My calculator must be broken....:confused:

What course is $60k?

Advanced Diploma of Aviation Flight Intruction Cost: $59,900.00

In the sales world this is termed, knowing your own product.:=

[Chieftain]

I was trained there and now have a fantastic job...they by far have a very high standard which I, mind you, achieved and you obviously didn't.

Paying that much for an OCTA PPL at TVSA could only mean one thing .... you didn't reach the standard.

Problem is, you just couldn't handle it.

Have a nice day... I certainly will, at FL330!:O

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

The planes looked fairly unhealthy,Instructors all freshly qualified and they expect you to clean,refuel and maintain the planes yourself in YOUR time.They also expect you to be around from 8.30-5.30 cleaning,studying,answering the phone etc !!! WTF

You really think when you get your first job in the boondocks that someone's going to have your aircraft cleaned, refuelled and washed for you before every charter? :rolleyes: Maybe a cleaning lady who makes coffee and answers the phone for you too? (All hail the patron saint of aviation, Nescafe.) Better get used to it. As for unhealthy planes, I'm sure if there was a problem, CASA would be keen to hear about it. From what I've heard, they pass ops inspections with flying colours.
Tend to agree with Chieftain though. Are you defaming the reputation of students who have completed their training at this school for a payback? For the record, I didn't do my training there, I just hate the petty s:mad:it some people come out with behind an anonymous tag.
PS Don't know of that many farm strips with sealed cross runways either.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

You really think when you get your first job in the boondocks that someone's going to have your aircraft cleaned, refuelled and washed for you before every charter?

In my first job out of school I had to clean floors, they didn't teach me that in Yr 12 Physics......... the point is when you are paying 15, 45 or 60k to be taught to fly, you expect to be treated as a CUSTOMER.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Yes you are a customer, but also a student.

Not referring to anyone in particular, and indeed there is no excuse for poor service, but some studes seem to believe that the money they pay will get them a licence - with little or no effort on their part to reach standard. This "rationalisation" is very frustrating for the instructors and is similar to the "this stupid aeroplane won't land properly" mindset...:ugh:

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I agree, Yes you have to put in a lot of effort it get to the standard. I’m just saying that you should be treated well, and have facilities and aircraft that allow you to do so.

[pilotads]

I didn't go to this school just adding my 2 cents after reading some of the posts

Refuelling, cleaning and maintenance on aircraft: if I was close to CPL standard and didn't have the aircraft cleaned, refuelled and warm in 30 min of my ETD I had a black little cross next to my name. You can't pass a CPL without refuelling your aircraft, if the plane is not clean the testing officer is not going to be happy and there for pick up on other minor things, like improper procedure in controlled air space, and if you don't now how to get rid of a little fouling in run up or put more oil in the plane what the hell are you doing flying.

Cleaning the office and answering phones, sometimes we did that at my school if the instructors were a bit stretched which happens.

As for $60000 that depends on the books they have to buy to teach you and the average flight time of there students if you need to spend more your worse than average. Getting you to pay for your flying time up front is a bit doggie but

Crappy looking aircraft is to be expected at every flying school if I go to a flying club and see brand new aircraft for hire I think "there charging too much to be able to keep buying new aircraft" and sure enough there fee's are a lot more than the fella operating out of the paddock on the other side of town or there not paying there instructors, which makes them unfreindly and usualy are the younger guys, and being instructed my guys not getting paid leads onto you willing to work for no pay and the cycle keeps going.

If the aircraft are that doggie CASA would not let them fly

As I said didn't go to this school just reply to some posts

[Chieftain]

See what I mean shilpa? Now stop defaming the school unjustly := as it is pretty obvious that they are well regarded by not only CASA, but a fair few other people in the industry.
It's just a shame that they can't please everyone...including those who don't wish to reach a standard.
I wish you the best of luck with your career and hope that you get on with your life and make the most of it and stop hindering yourself with these petty hang ups.
And most importantly.... enjoy your flying!
So...to change the subject, anyone going to Avalon? :)

[Jnr380]

Chief.

Yeah heading to AVALON, i would love to fly there but just minor problem. my missus hates small planes cause she gets claustrophobic (she is fine riding in heavies) so i guess i'm going the common way. Hoping to get there at 7:30 to get fence seats and i'll remember ear plugs this time lol.

[Chieftain]

Bloody hell...$10 says you don't get anywhere in this industry....best of luck sweetheart! Because you're living in a dream world. Enjoy yourself!

[Chieftain]

Whoops...was meant to address that to CP adi... didn't fully read his 9it's0 last message last time... my bad! Can you tell how long it's been since i've used pprune?! :) jnr 380...you going to be there on trade or public days?

[G'day]

That's the way Mel, get stuck into him!!!

Have fun at FL330:ok:

[Jnr380]

Chief,

Going on the 24th of march (public day) its should be a blast! Im not that high up the food chain to get anything else, although i've been bugging my boss for passes to the corporate marquee (Vic State Gov) but he cant even get one for himself :uhoh: . (He is a level 5, one step below executive) all the corp. passes went to exects..........:ugh:

[Launchpad McQuack]

Cheiftain

I agree with CP Adi, perhaps a little harsh to judge so quickly based on one statement...no offence mate...however, I can see where you're coming from and why you've drawn those conclusions. If you want to discuss this further then I'm prepared to do so over a beer at Avalon, along with any other ppruners who happen to be there:}

CP Adi

I just read your first statement...no flying establishment pleases everybody, at any level in the industry. However, based on your comments, I believe Chieftain is on to something here.

I'm not saying that you're wrong about anything, and it's unfortunate that you found the Instructors unfriendly/unprofessional. If it's true they are neglecting potential and current Students, they are fools and will suffer in the long run because ultimately the Students provide these Instructors with jobs in terms of money and flying hours on which to build their careers.

But with regards to grubby looking GA aircraft, answering phones, cleaning aircraft, recently qualified instructors, study etc etc etc....welcome to the real world. You may not like it, it may not be fair, but that's generally how it is and there are many reasons for it. We've all done it except possibly for Airline cadets, so consider it a rite-of-passage to your career...but whether you like it or not, that's often how it is.

I'm also sure Chieftain's opinions about the establishment in question would be no different if he had struggled to get that first elusive job.

Having said all that, I sincerely wish you the best of luck either way, but if you intend to pursue a career in aviation then it might be time for a reality check....

LM

PS CP Adi - You appear to be missing a few keys on your keyboard

[aircabbie]

Judging by the way you mentioned TVSA Melbourne , Australia
id assume your not from Australia , so if our flying schools aren't up to your standards why don't you pack your bags and :mad: off . You sound like someone i know who could not fly a kite then just quit his CPL training when he was nearly done. . counted his losses so to speak then bitched and moaned about the flying school and the instructors , who are now flying for airlines and the school is still pumping out high standard LT pilots .

[57GoldTop]

grubbyness adds to the character of the aircraft IMO :)

[Launchpad McQuack]

...I'm assuming your suggestions are aimed at CP Adi?!

Also, off the subject....Jnr380, which way are you going now? IF or Instructor??

[Aerodynamisist]

It's a bit off the topic but what are you guys paying for a cpl and mecir these days 45 to 60 grand for a ppl seems pretty steep.

[aircabbie]

No Shilpa ( person who made original post )
CP whatever his name needs to learn to spell , before he starts shooting his mouth on a network where everyone can see his spollin misaksees !!
cheers:ok:

[aircabbie]

It's a bit off the topic but what are you guys paying for a cpl and mecir these days 45 to 60 grand for a ppl seems pretty steep

Hi Mate guessing that should be for CPL right? anyone who pays 45-60 grand for a PPL should not be flying ? CPL + MECIR looking at between 45-60K as you mentioned . :ok:

[Tee Emm]

Crappy looking aircraft is to be expected at every flying school

And : "If the aircraft were that daggy (not doggie) CASA would not let them fly."

Rather than say the students are customers, it would be more honest to say students are treated as suckers at certain flying training establishments. . Otherwise why accept without question the rip-offs in the industry?

Daggy aircraft expected? There is no excuse for that. Why expect low class service? If "customers" pay hard earned dollars to have dual instruction then they should demand a clean well serviced aircraft with an experienced flying instructor - not a 250 hour wonder.

If a customer hires a self drive car from a reputable firm he certainly would not be expected be responsible for doing errands and answering the phones and clean the firms cars as part of the hiring cost. Not so in the GA industry. The trouble is that new students in the flying training industry are brought up to expect mediocracy because this is the aviation culture in Australia.

As far as CASA being interested in a daggy aircraft. You must be kidding. Have you ever seen a CASA FOI actually inspecting a flying school aircraft? - let alone sitting in one or even flying it to see what hidden defects exist. CASA could not care less how badly maintained or how daggy a Cessna or Warrior is as long as the Ops Manual paperwork is ticked in the right boxes. Knocking flying schools is like knocking Qantas - it all depends on how individuals have enjoyed the experience or not.

[das Uber Soldat]

then they should demand a clean well serviced aircraft with an experienced flying instructor - not a 250 hour wonder

So what exactly do those 250 hours 'wonders' do to progress ahead? Charter? Why would people go from charter back to instructing?

All that'd happen is that you'd have even less instructors than you do now.

[Jnr380]

Sorry guys off the topic again:

LaunchPad, I have decided to do my Instructor as its quicker and basically guaranteed work as compared to doing my MECIR. so it should be good and it will be a great change to move from melbourne, and i hope if im lucky enough i can get a job where they'll pay for my instructor rating (fat chance).

[pilotads]

What is it the average age of an aircraft in GA is 30 years. What do you expect a 30 year old car to look like. i've got one sitting out in front of me at the moment and i'm supprised its even on wheels. whats the average age of most hire cars 1 yr. so you expect flying schools should go out every year and replace there obviously aging fleet. Time to go out into the industry Tee Emm. Students mostly pay for hours not aircraft and comfort because they want hours cheap, charter passangers on the other hand do pay for aircraft and comfort, so what schools try to do is teach the student that when he gets his cpl and starts charter, to look after and clean the aircraft. In this case where the student is obviously doing a full coarse if the aircraft isn't clean in my opinon thats the students fault. As for looking grubby outside of being unclean, those aircraft have have what 16 different people per day sliding in and out of them (most are only are only learning how to handle them) for 30 yrs use your imagination on what they should look like and I bet your imagination should think of something worse than what the plane actualy looks like now.
Again I didn't go to this have never seen there aircraft so i'm only speaking generaly and for myself

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

Have a nice day... I certainly will, at FL330!
Tool.:yuk: :yuk:

[gezza182]

"Posting for a mate here, but I am told on good authority that 'tealady' runs (or used to run) TVSA, and 'Chieftan' is (or used to) be a senior instructor there. For all those out there that werent aware of this, their comments may need to be taken with a grain of salt..."


IMNSHO CaptainToBe, tealady and Chieftan have every right to defend TVSA from the defamatory postings made on this forum. I thought that by the tenor of their posts that it was pretty clear that they both had a personal involvement in TVSA.

However, I speak as someone who has never had any direct involvement with TVSA, but has flown privately from Moorabbin for many years, had personal involvement with a couple of flying schools and the RVAC, has seen TVSA aircraft around the traps, and have heard a mixture of reports (on the grapevine) about them, just as I have with every flying school at Moorabbin. These reports have been glowing, "ordinary", and all points between.

I do think that it is relevant that over the years TVSA have trained hundreds (perhaps thousands) of pilots, many of whom have gone onto good careers within the aviation industry, and what do we have here......one complaint. I think that speaks for itself.

[raja1]

I am Indian and their name has already reached here. TEALADY whose name is Wendy whose coarse language is insulting. The daughter One Strike, Two Strike, MEL was supposed to go to QANTAS I guess they heard about her airforce career and Peter the blue collar worker now owns TVSA. I believe his claim to fame is to s****w as many people as possible.

They have given Australian Flying Schools a bad name.

[peedownsyndrome]

I was at tvsa for a while and not only were they extremely insulting but very unprofessional. They strung me along with my training getting me to pay for unecessary hours. They will use any excuse imaginable to delay your progress, getting you to fly when not needed. The tealady (wendy dow), has extreme issues and tries also to scam more money through the accomodation side that she "runs". It is a joke! She is always relying on indian contracts to fund their dodgy business. They promise them their licence, then threaten to take their visas when they get there if they don't pay more money. It's no wonder there are hardly any aussie students there, its because they all know their dodgy practices. Students are accused of things that they didn't do, and bossed around to make them feel bullied and pressured. The instructing is a joke as all students are scared to fly becasue they are always being put down. They will rob you of your love for flying and also the money you planned on using to get there. But otherwise a great school! :ugh:

[PlankBlender]

No matter what some dodgy so-called business people may want you to believe, if you are shelling our money, you are the customer and you can expect courteous, professional service and at least industry standard material and standards.

To the contributor above, you should know better comparing cars and planes.. which car gets a new engine every couple of thousand hours or less, plus all the other LAME attention CASA requires for the thing that keeps you in the air? And which thirty year old car can you refurbish internally for a five figure sum and make look like new? And how come some schools charging not above average for instruction have Garmin 430s and such installed, and are still making money for their owners, plus paying instructors award or above?

I am now training with a school offering all of the above, having switched from a dodgy (yet very established) YMMB business stringing me along to milk me for more hours with their lacking staff.. go figure!

[PlankBlender]

..sorry, above it should read "four figure sum" for the internal refurbishment (non-avionics of course :}), was a bit late last night..

..and washing planes, sweeping floors and answering phones as a matter of course at your school? You must be f:mad:ing kidding!! You're a paying customer, for heaven's sake! Now of course I am not saying don't be nice and offer to help out every now and again, but of course you're trading your time and effort for a job in the near future at the organisation, don't blur that customer/employee border too much..

[Walrus 7]

Negative sentiments can be levelled at just about every FTO by someone or the other. There is always going to be clashes of personality or expectations. I've flown with nine schools since 1985: GroupAir, TVSA, Coldstream Flying School, Schutts, GFS, MFS, Binis, Tooradin (one flight) and now Lilydale.

I found good and bad in each one, but tend to agree with the sentiments here about TVSA. As far as quality and professionalism go, it's hard to go past the old Binis (not flown with them since the takeover), but for interest, encouragement and personal interaction, it would be a draw between Groupair and Lilydale.

No doubt, there are people out there who would disagree with my assessment, which tends to prove my point.

For a group that has been in existence for such a short time, there are some very good things being said about MFT.

Walrus

[sam12]

Ha ha ha ha its so funny reading over these posts... tvsa must pay people to say nice things about them because I can honestly say in my years in the industry I have not met one person who has positive things to say about them! No wait, there was one guy who was happy with the end result but he was still quite upset about the abusive methods of instruction and said he was quite surprised he hung in that long.

Wait- please dont believe me- or anyone else that posts comments here- or the next tvsa employee who will follow with a comment slaggin me off- just talk to people! Seriously ask anyone about them they are infamous in the aviation industry. You dont have to search far to hear the truth.