Abuse on 121.5

[Diddley Dee]

Forgive the intrusion into your CAT forum. Just thought I'd pop in and congratulate the "professional" pilot overhead Birmingham this afternoon who, when a GA aircraft called London Centre today for a practice pan told the pilot of the GA aircraft to Pi$$ off...... Go on, give yourself a big pat on the back, well done, what an aviator, absolute credit to your profession...........:yuk:

Diddley Dee

[fmgc]

How do you know that he was overhead BHX?

[Diddley Dee]

Because all transmissions on 121.5 are automatically DF fixed and instantly displayed in front of the D&D controllers.

And..... we then plot the DF fix onto the radar screen alongside the DF display which will then show the squawk of the aircraft concerned with the digits callsign code converted into the aircraft callsign displayed on the radar screen.

So..... swearing on 121.5 at the controllers / other aircraft isnt terribly bright as we can see who it is.



DD

[JW411]

I would have thought that this is fairly obvious. Anyone who calls on 121.5 in the UK is immediately going to be fixed by triangulation by D & D.

It would be really excellent if said organisation could positively identify the ignorant pillock.

[egbt]

I would have though a copy of the recording to the operators chief pilot of might give him/her food for thought.

[Capt H Peacock]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of pilots who seem unclear as to the purpose of 121.5.

DO NOT transmit on 121.5 unless your message is of critical importance to the safety and security of aerial navigation.

That includes the posse of 'guard deputies' who seem to spend their entire flight with their thumb on the trigger to castigate the first break of static.

I listened in disbelief the other day whilst a rescue operation, which as it happens was being conducted in French, was continuallly interrupted by several of these self-appointed 'point 5 police.

They should be ashamed.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Err, he's in Uxbridge...

That tells me all I need to know!

(Other than that this was probably a pilot peed off with the GA fraternity's interruptions on a frequncy which has become the de facto box 2 default. Yes, I know that it's abused by professional airframe drivers too, but I do firmly believe that until it can be a sterile frequency, it won't be...)

:rolleyes:

[burgerbun]

Well,...
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...

whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......

Right on Dude, I'm with You..:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Burgerbin

Do you ever fly in UK airspace?

If so, I suggest that you take some time to study the Air Law that applies there, since you obviously don't fully understand it at the moment and are risk of committing an offence with your present attitude.

Neither do you seem to understand how UK ATC and in particular the D&D cell operates.

Pretty worrying if you really are a commercial pilot operating in the UK.

Also, perhaps you might ask your ops department for a copy of the CAA study of the use of 121.5 in the UK and read their conclusions.

If you still do not like the system, then make representations to the CAA, but do not encourage unprofessional behaviour such as using bad language as you interrupt another pilot who is legitiamtely using the frequency with the support of UK ATC.

[Anotherflapoperator]

Burgerbun. Please think again. As a professional, SWEARING LIKE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY OUT OF ORDER. Our SOP is also to listen to 121.5 whilst above FL100, but whilst in UK airspace I can't figure out for the life of my why I should. The purpose is obviously to prevent loss of contact and interception problems, which on a quiet day out over the Bay of Biscay, I DO listen out on .5

However the TMA area is far too busy to need to. SOPs are set for the LCD in many companies, so perhaps a little common sense would see it either turned right down or off in busy UK airspace. Concentrate on what you should be listening to, I say. Getting student pilots used to listening and communicating with D&D is vital. One day they may need their help and the top blokes and lasses in D&D are the last hope for some poor young soul so they should be confident in being able to speak to them.

To expect this frequency to be sterile just to pander to our following a frankly daft SOP yet not have to hear it is also daft. Back when airmanship existed, guarding 121.5 in the right circumstances was fine. Now it's use is being forced onto everyone to desperately stop the embarassment for companies when someone has finger trouble or whatever is not a good reason to force GA users to go away. It's their airspace and service too.

If you find 5 minutes of silence un-nerving like I do, and click or ask for a radio check from your main frequency, then no problem. Spending half a hour engrossed in a crossword or Suduko is. However being rude is just not on, no matter what this GA pilot was after. Name and shame here I say. Just the callsign will do fine.

[B Fraser]

A visit to Uxbridge to meet the chaps and chapesses in the cell should be mandatory for every pilot.

Keep up the excellent work :ok:

[ERIK C]

Being a military Air Traffic Controller, one of my duties is to monitor 121.5
From my observation Practice PANs and Position fixes constitute less then 5% of the use of guard. About 85% of the time it is airline pilots inadvertantly transmitting on 121.5.
Sometimes it is funny to hear the reactions of fellow airline pilots when somebody does the brief for the passengers on guard in stead of on the PA:} !
I gues about 10% of the time transmissions on guard are for real emergencies and loss of communications.
I am sure D&D has the correct statistics on the use and abuse of 121.5.
As it happens I am also a PPL instructor near Luton and with each of my students ONCE in their PPL training I request a position fix on guard. I think D&D are doing a wonderfull job and unexperienced (future airline) pilots temporary uncertain of position shouldn't be affraid to use this unique facility the UK has. Better one call on guard then to stack up ten liners in the hold for an airspace infringement!

[HundredPercentPlease]

Well,...
personnaly, I'm getting sick and tired to monitor 121.5 as good airmainship would dictate, to hear some idiot sending a " practice MAYDAY Call " every other minute...
In my days, When I practiced a forced landing, I didn't press the transmit button, and the only people who heard my simulated MAYDAY where...just me...., not the 70 commercial aeroplanes in the region...

whoever told that GA aircraft to Pi$$ off......

Right on Dude, I'm with You..

Burgerbun, to think that you are actually a commercial pilot of any description with that attitude and depth of knowledge is in itself a terrifying prospect.

[Evilbob]

I have always been led to believe that D&D will be happy to oblige if a GA aircraft calls requesting a practice pan (not a Maday as has been suggested), providing there isn't a real emergency in progress. And you can avoid stepping on such transmissions by observing basic RT etiquette;

Listen before you transmit
Make the initial call short. London Centre G-xxxx request practice pan

Heres what the CAA have to say:

http://http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf

[Mach Buffet]

Since 911 the implications of an aircraft not responding to an ATC call has changed drastically. Inevitably an interception will ensue. Consequently 121.5 has become, as well as the distress frequency, a mandatory guard frequency, which ATC can call a slient aircraft on and alert them. Aircrew are now obliged to monitor 121.5 at all times, by virtue of SOP in the vast majority of airlines.

Time was, when practice PANs and talk on 121.5 caused little effect on others. Now it has the effect of interfering with ATC communications by possibly blocking reception of ATC calls on the main ATC frequency.

The UK is the only juristriction that continues to make 121.5 available for practice and non-essential calls. Like many others, I believe that this practice is now outdated and in need of review.

Use of foul language is not acceptable, but the frustration behind it is understandable.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

The UK is the only juristriction that continues to make 121.5 available for practice and non-essential calls.
Could this be because the UK is the only country to have a dedicated D&D service? I say this not to denigrate other countries' emergency provisions; however, D&D in the UK is provided by controllers as their primary duty. This means two things as regards Practice Pan calls on 121.5:
1. The controllers NEED a certain number of these calls to remain current.
2. It's their frequency and they are quite capable of policing it themselves.
Over water I might make a quick call of "Guard" if I hear a PA or a call to Ops- because I have made that mistake myself and appreciated the warning. Over land? Leave it to the real experts!

[Ashling]

Can't condone allowing frustation to boil over in the way this chap did. It does raise a valid concern though. .5 needs to be clear for poor souls in distress when they need it most or to prevent an unecessary encounter with missile carrying fighters.

The military provided a discrete UHF freq for practise pans after several incidents on 243 when actual emergencies were blocked out by practise pans. Perhaps its possable to do the same here ?

[Mach Buffet]

Carlton,

the situation arising is simply this: All over the world 121.5 is routinely being monitored as a guard frequency. In the vicinity of the UK, pilots monitoring 121.5 either end up missing ATC calls for them as a result of the amount of talk on it or either turn down the volume on box 2 and not actively monitor the frequency. Neither is desirable and the issue needs addressing.

Ashlings suggestion merits a lot of consideration.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

...and sadly, because of 'frequency congestion', has been turned down at every step...

Now, how often does use of 121.5 by aircraft genuinely in distress prevent loss of life?

[burgerbun]

Ashling and Mach Buffer pretty much explained my frame of mind without my mediterranean temper...

as for Final 3 Greens, yes, I do fly in the Uk... Live with It!!!:}

[Diddley Dee]

We would love a seperate freq to filter VHF practice calls onto, sadly although ideal, its not going to happen.

As regards listening out on 121.5.... oh how I enjoyed listening to "professional" pilots repeatedly talking amongst themselves during last years world cup asking each other football scores........:ugh:

I, as do my collegues, sympathise with the interuption practice calls create on 121.5 to overflying CAT. However being sworn at by supposedly professional airline pilots at the legitimate use of 121.5 within UK airspace is disgraceful.

Its all been said before about the use of 121.5 in the UK, I would just like to politely ask, that when subjected to interuption on your flight deck via 121.5 ..... perhaps you could recall that you were a PUT once & perhaps used 121.5 on a PP call.... or think about the times you have inadvertantly made a tx on 121.5 as a fully qualified commercial pilot..... or we have had to go out on 121.5 to get you to come up on the freq you should be on but are no longer listening to...

Safe Flying

DD

[Final 3 Greens]

Burgerbun

as for Final 3 Greens, yes, I do fly in the Uk... Live with It!!!

This is what the UK CAA says on the matter

"It is therefore apparent that the problem will be addressed not by restricting the use of frequency 121.5 MHz for Practice Pans and Training Fixes, but by encouraging all pilots to use the frequency only for emergencies - practice or real."

So you live with it - and if you or any other foul mouthed pilot ever tells me to p&ss off when using 121.5 legitimately, I will file a report immediately and ask ATC to write to the chief pilot of the airline involved.

[FREDAcheck]

Forgive me, as a GA pilot (and thus of the community apparently causing a problem for commercial pilots) straying on this thread, but might I ask for clarification of the problem please?

ERIK C says that, in his experience as a military ATCO, the large majority of the non-emergency traffic he hears on 121.5 is commercial, not GA. This included a passenger brief by mistake (ie not a short call). The CAA investigation (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf) also reported that 75% of all calls on 121.5 in the UK were "erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots". The remaining 25% are real emergencies and GA non-urgent use.

However, a number of pilots on this and other threads have expressed concern that GA non-urgent use, rather than the much larger amount of commercial non-urgent use, is causing a problem.

I rarely listen, and have never called, on 121.5, so I'd appreciate knowing why GA non-urgent use causes a problem that commercial non-urgent use doesn't cause.

Thanks.

[False Capture]

Now, how often does use of 121.5 by aircraft genuinely in distress prevent loss of life?Kit d'Rection KG,
Plenty of GA pilots on VFR flights have received invaluable assistance on 121.5 when faced with being lost and reducing fuel or daylight. Don't be too dismissive of the great service D&D provide to the GA community in the UK.

[TheGorrilla]

Flying a light aircraft around the Uk in the open FIR I think a distress call on 121.5 would be far more useful to me than say, transmitting on an air-ground/traffic/advisory type service such as Popham, Elstree or Waltham. purely because all I have to say is "Mayday Mayday Mayday I'm on fire... oh Sh01T!!" and D/D will have a pretty good idea where to start their search. Instead of being asked where i am, what my intentions are (avoiding death!!), and trying to get a word in over some eijit transmitting his dogs life story whilst asking for a non-existant radar information service.

I'm all for 121.5 being used n GA. Airliners generally fly around europe and many other parts of the world in contact with a radar controler who knows exactly who they are, where they are and where they're going. So the controller controlling the airliner at the time is the best one to talk to.

Airliners in remote parts of the world monitoring 121.5 without radar cover (atlantic/africa etc..) would do well to turn up the volume on 121.5, because they might be the only ones in a position to relay a distress message heard from another aircraft within VHF range. I hope if i ever have to declare an emergency in the middle of the atlantic someone will relay for me.

Grrrr.... Swearing at someone asking for a practice PAN is darn nearly criminal!

[chiglet]

Many [MANY] moons ago,when I was in the RAF. We had a PPL medic... nicknamed the "Flying Doctor" :ok:
Said guy was relating a tale [in the NAAFI] when he was LOST, in POOR VIS and LOW CLOUD, and he was [I kid you NOT] "Flying low to read the railway station names"
I asked why he didn't call 121.5.....
His reply





But That's for EMERGENCIES....:ugh:
watp,iktch

[Airbubba]

Yep, 121.5 is strictly reserved for emergencies, ride reports and baseball scores!

[London Mil]

If I was DD, I would have filed a report against the ignorant idiot who chose to swear at him/her.
This was all argued a few months back. The CAA went away, did a survey and came back with an answer. If you have the time to switch TX to guard, hurl some abuse and then get back to your primary, then, in all reality, is the 121.5 noise really that bad?

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Diddley Dee,

Are you able to find an answer to my question above, please?

[London Mil]

Kit, I'm sure DD could but what exactly are you asking for? 121.5 in itself will never save anyone's life. However, it will increase the chances of a successful outcome. I'm thinking about the light twin that ditched in the North Sea last year. Talking to D&D on 121.5 undoubtedly assisted in fixing the exact crash position (also helped by the BMI who chose to orbit overhead waiting for the SAR helo to pitch up).

[Sean Dell]

London Mil - I was monitoring 121.5 as it happened - our collegues behind (on another BA, not BMI) assisted locating the ditched a/c. What did help was that the FO on the BA a/c was ex SAR and also a mate of one of the SAR pilots/crewman.

So guys, listening out on 121.5 did help this German chap (in his T-shirt and Jeans) get lifted out of the drink, just a little bit quicker than he might have been.

Turn the vol down on box 2, when you hear a practice pan, or a training fix, why not raise a smile and remember when it was you going through training. The excellent guys and gals of D&D will soon clear the frequency for a real Emergency. Is it really that annoying?

SD

[Diddley Dee]

Kit d'Rection KG

Sorry I cant answer your question.... who is to know that if the guy who called lost under a lowering cloudbase hadnt called D&D what would have happened (fairly typical sitch of GA Pans), would he have soldiered on & realised where he was or would he have become more & more panicked until he made a possibly fatal mistake (forget to switch tanks, fly into a hill etc...)?

Or how about the guy in a TB10 that called me embedded in IMC on an absolutely awful day with no IMC rating & 4 POB..... If he hadnt called D&D what would have been the outcome there?

We do get a lot of assistance from CAT in relaying messages for us to ac that are too low to recieve our TX direct, indeed one or two CAT operators have been doing practice pan calls for ourselves & Scottish Centre to asist in Controller training.....we have an ongoing training committment & PP calls do help enormously to allow new controllers to become familiar with the kit we use. If you have ever been to D&D you will realise that the kit / comms setup is vastly different from any other ATC ops room)

Diddley Dee

[London Mil]

Sean, apologies. I knew it was a British company as opposed to the ignorant continental european airline that appears to have a habit of hurling abuse on 121.5.

[FullWings]

First, I agree that there is no excuse for the sort of behaviour reported at the beginning of this thread - totally unprofessional.

Second, I do think that the UK is out-of-line with international standards in encouraging/allowing non-emergency use of 121.5. The UK FIR borders onto many other such regions and transmissions made inside the UK are received a long way outside. The same could be said of 123.45 only the other way round. Radio waves are no respecters of international boundaries...

I can really understand the frustration from both sides. Personally, I don't monitor 121.5 in the UK (or nearby) unless I am at cruising level or it is early in the morning/late at night when all the little aircraft are in bed. The LTMA and Daventry airspace is some of the busiest in the world and it only takes one or two missed ATC calls to put aircraft in conflict with each other. I wouldn't do this elsewhere in the world (the USA stands out here) as I have no desire to be intercepted/attacked by a 'weekend warrior' in his F-16 if I end up on the wrong frequency or have a radio failure; luckily the RAF don't seem to have much 'form' in shooting down airliners...

[Kit d'Rection KG]

No need for anyone to get overheated here - I'm just interested to know where 121.5 sits in the great scheme of things. I see a lot of statistics in my work, and have never seen anything that tells me how often D&D is genuinely essential.

For me, it's like the lifeboats. Almost always, they are deployed without there being any real need (qv Seaside Rescue). Occasionally, they are essential to saving life.

We have to have them, either way (though as an RNLI Governor, I do have the feeling that a more robust approach to some requests for deployment would keep costs down).

However, in the aeronautical world, the monitoring of 121.5 in the flight deck is ineffective as a safeguard against PLOC unless the frequency is silent. The possible outcomes are distraction causing degradation of awareness and possibly causing or aggravating problems for the crew, or pilots turning the volume down or off, and thus losing the PLOC safeguard.

Yes, 121.5 for genuine emergencies, by all means, including PLOC. But we really shouldn't be using it for rehearsals...

[StudentInDebt]

I think I'd better go see my AME quickly as I am obviously deaf. I monitor 121.5 in the UK FIR as a matter of course and I rarely hear the practise pans that others seem to be overwhelmed to the point of distraction by. I also have some form of motor condition that prevents me from selecting the number2 box, pressing the transmit switch and shouting "on guard" as an instinctive reaction to any transmission I hear be it a PA or a distress call :uhoh:

[TheGorrilla]

Many life boats rescuing mariners as a result of a D/D service are amatures with little or no form of qualiication. One sunny DAY last summer 10 mayday calls were made at sea. Some by idiots that had gotten themselves or passengers sea sick..... Good grief!! The main difference here is that everyone of us up there has a licence, at least 50 hours training and are very often a professional.

I don't mind turning up the volume on 121.5 (and 123.45 right down!). Hearing someone swearing or transmitting football, baseball or any other lower class sport scores on 121.5 shouldn't be reason to turn the volume down, 123.45 definately, 121.5 is different.

[London Mil]

A little over 1200 Practice PANs last year. Being benevolent, let us say that GA were airborne for 200 days in the year (weather) so we'll guess at 6 calls/day. One minute per call? Not exactly swamping the airwaves.

[False Capture]

I was once positioning in the back of an Airbus when over the PA we heard "you're on guard". After much laughter we sent a note to the flight-deck saying "you're on the PA".:}

[Right Way Up]

Yes practice pan calls can be a little annoying as they drown out a call for you. But no more so than a call from the cabin. Its part of life and as professional pilots we should be able to deal with it. What crosses my mind is that a long winded practice call may block out someone who really needs to use the service. Is there no way D & D could be allowed 2 frequencies, one for real emergencies and one for the benefit of training?

[London Mil]

If you need to talk, don't wait for the practice transmission to end. Blatt out and one of the other 8 radio legs will pick you up.

[Diddley Dee]

The poll above is largely irrelevent. Most of us agree there should be a seperate freq available for PP transmissions on, it would be beneficial all round..... but there is absolutely no sign of this happening.
So the present transmissions that occur on 121.5 will continue..... the vast majority of those tx are inadvertant tx made by CAT, not ac making PP calls.

Incidentally when civil sectors call us via landline & ask us to go out on 121.5 to raise AIRLINE ABC & instruct him to go to freq xxxxxx, I place my hand on my heart & tell you that about 7/10 times we cant raise them on guard as they are not listening to that either.

Anyway, Its all been said before, just started this thread as we are not there to be sworn at & it just gets me when some annonymous (or so he thinks) skygod gets himself all worked up & lets his mouth run away. Tiny minority I know:ok:
DD

[Final 3 Greens]

Tiny minority I know

I'll second that; As a PPL, some of my best insights into the art of aviating were given freely by line pilots and their professionalism is usually of an order that we amateurs can only aspire to, although there is no harm in trying to emulate them :ok:

[On speed on profile]

I overheard some RAF pilots talking about the use of the Practice Pan. It turns out they were Tucano guys with a grand total of 80 hours and they were braggin to each other that if they got lost at Linton, all they had to do was utter that magic phrase three times and low and behold, a heading direct was passed!

That is just poor form in my book and by the number of times I hear it (on blue days more often than not) it seems like it is a common occurance.

My view, make the calls on a non operational frequency! 121.5 is for emergencies and if I was having one, then I sure as hell wouldnt want to wait for a practice one to finish before I said what I needed to say!

121.5 if for saying what you need to when it really counts. Not in 1 minutes time not in 2 minutes time! NOW!!!!!

OSOP

[Diddley Dee]

OSOP

If a Tucano pilot does as you suggest above then he is only kidding himself.

However, if they were to do that it would be on a "non operational frequency" as for Mil PP calls we have a seperate freq for training & do not use UHF guard.

DD

[DILLIGAFF]

When I was learning to fly many moons ago, when it came to the practice pan on 121.5 my instructor called radar and asked them if it was OK to do it. He said they were usually cooperative (as they were for my turn) also it gave them a bit of practice with the trianglation, They were spot on with me. Also it gave me confidence as a new aviator that if I did get really ' temporarily unsure of my location' not lost mind you,there was someone who could help me out. Mind you it might be different nowdays.
D

[apereg]

I fly a lot over the Atlantic.
You should hear the chats on the channel, making it sometimes impossible to stay on the channel.

[Earthmover]

apereg, absolutely. Why do they do that when there's another frequency reserved precisely for that purpose? Beats me.

[Mach Buffet]

I agree with they above comments regarding the abuse of 121.5 on the ocean, and I always ask those involved to desist.
The big difference between operating under VHF coverage and the ocean is that you have to listen out all the time for calls to you, whereas on the ocean you don't. At the same time you are monitoring 121.5 on box 2. Consequently calls on box two can drown out calls for you on VHF box 1.
What I can't understand is the attitude of the CAA in citing a lack of available frequencies for a dedicated frequency for practice PANs and DF. It was only five years ago that 8.33kHz spacing was introduced, greatly increasing the number of available frequencies. I don't believe all those additional frequencies have been used up already.

[Ashling]

Practise pans are definately a good thing. They give the controllers practise and aircrew confidence in the system. In my military days I even recall D&D asking for more of them as we tended to make the initial call to an approach contoller at an airfield rather than D&D so they missed out on handling the initial crisis then handing us over to an airfield.

121.5 is just as much for GA as it is for commercial. GA pilots need to practise using it so when they need it they are practised and so are the controllers. Its a win win from that point of view. Snag is they do block up the freq somewhat at times and inevitably you turn it down or off to avoid the mouth music and then forget to turn it up/on for a while. So win win starts to become a lose.

A seperate freq ala the mil gives us the best of all worlds. A clear emerg channel and a channel to practise on so crews and controllers get practise and confidence.

Anyone using 121.5 as a casual chat freq is being unprofessional and if their position can be fixed accurately I would fully support ATC reporting them through the usual channels. That ought to stop it fairly quickly. If you want to chat use freight train.

Tucano studes are required to practise training fix's by their syllabus and do it on 243.1 or whatever the practise freq is. If they are temporarily unsure of their position solo then they went through a lost procedure which could end up in a distress call but only ever did on a very few occasions.

[Gonzo]

Although the lack of frequencies might come into it (bear in mind that such a dedicated 'practice pan' frequency would have to be protected throughout the FIR, not just in one area).

I fear the main barrier for this is cost; all those new transmitters and receivers, equipment etc that a new FIR-wide frequency would demand. Who pays for that?

[Mach Buffet]

I doubt if the setup would be that expensive. Modern day transmitters are capable of synthesysing a large range of frequencies, and no longer need be dedicated to a single frequency. Putting things in context, what's the relative cost of scrambling a couple of fighter /interceptors to prompt a crew to call on 121.5 as they missed a frequency change and have the volume on 121.5 turned down?

As I've said, since 911 the use of 121.5 has taken on a new meaning and some consideration has to be put into this. I believe the use of the frequency for routine or practice calls mitigates against its effectiveness.

[FREDAcheck]

As I've said, since 911 the use of 121.5 has taken on a new meaning and some consideration has to be put into this. I believe the use of the frequency for routine or practice calls mitigates against its effectiveness.
Yes, but as the CAA report shows, 75% of ALL calls on 121.5 are non-urgent calls from commercial flights. Practice PANs are some fraction of the remaining 25%. I don't mean to criticise, this is a genuine question: why is the small minority of non-urgent calls coming from practice PANs such a problem?

[ShyTorque]

Because it blocks the frequency for the football scores?
If 121.5 WAS completely quiet, would airlines have to ask for routine radio checks to ensure it was all working?

This isn't rocket science. If a call interrupts, turn down the volume and then turn it back up afterwards. Easy. If the workload is thought too high for some to manage that simple thing, then these folk are perhaps in the wrong job?

Even I can manage to do it SPIFR, why can't multicrew operators?
Having said that, it appears that many of today's commercial pilots don't even know how to check the transmit selector is pointing to the correct radio box before transmitting..... according to the CAA survey.

[Beaver diver]

When I was flying back in Canada couple a years ago, some guys were screwing around the same way on 121.5 , but it eneded up with F-16 escort planes joining them as they were inapropriately joking right over the oil rafinery, just south from Vancouver,BC. They have suspended their licenses after, that's what I have heard and that's the way It should be...

[TheGorrilla]

Nah! I would have shot them down. :} Far kinder to the human race. Remove them from the gene pool. :E

[tailwheel76]

Maybe I'm just lucky but I rarely find 121.5 clogged up in the UK its normally other languages abroad chatting. Besides we have a volume knob to turn it down. I also find as we come back into the UK its so busy trying to get Servisair, Ops, VOLMETS and ATIS's (ATII?!), that monitoring 121.5 often falls by the wayside and the safe operation of our flight takes priority.

Consider a young person, just qualified, gets themselves into trouble, which could have happened to any of us. They've lost the frequency they should have been on, they are 'uncertain of their position', and tired. Their stress level is building up to the point where the short term memory doesn't work as well as it should. "Now what frequency will guarantee me help, did we use 125.1 or was it 121.5, or was there something else we practiced on". They get their heads in the cockpit dailing up frequencies and become a CFIT or collision risk. Worst case scenario I know, but isn't that why UK aviation is so safe?

I was lucky enough to have a flight with a D&D manager and we called up 121.5 - the reason was the same as someone mentioned earlier, to keep them practiced but to also give me the confidence to ask them for help before its too late. If they are busy they'll ask you try another day, if not you realise this single magic frequency can do all sorts for you and its important people are not scared off using it.

Genuine question - Why do we have to monitor 121.5 in UK airspace if the D&D people in the UK are doing anyway?

[Mach Buffet]

Tailwheel,
traditionally the purpose of aircrew listening out on 121.5 has been to monitor for ELTs and other aircraft in distress. Nowadays, the over-riding purpose is to allow you to be alerted by ATC should you miss several calls or a frequency change. Since 911 the reaction to a comms failure will likely involve the MoD.

(Just have a look here: http://www.zap16.com/Intercept%20f16%20B767%20Delta.htm)

I'm not for one moment trying to run down its usefullness or indeed suggesting that an aircraft in distress should hesitate in calling up on it - god knows I've been that soldier and grateful for the assistance given to me by West Drayton.

The problem I have with use of the frequency for practice and routine calls is that after coming across the ocean early morning into a busy UK airport there is already so much distraction on the flight deck - multiple ATC frequency changes in a short space of time, getting weather updates, ATIS, briefings etc, there is the tendancy to turn down box 2 (121.5) if there is signifcant talk on it. Having done so, it generally will get left turned down, thereby defeating the whole purpose.

[WorkingHard]

So we know statistically that in the UK over 75% of traffic on guard is "innapropriate" use by the commercial flyers. Of the remaining 25% very little is for "practise" calls. So why are the abusers getting so het up about the very tiny proportion of users that are using it legally? Some of the comments above suggest that there are a number who should not be any where near an aircraft let alone in charge of one.
Someone above suggested a name and shame policy. What a spelndid idea.

[GROUNDSTAR]

121.5 seems to have become the new Emirates chat frequency!

[Ashling]

Having a seperate freq is an ideal end game result and probably some time away. That should not stop it being aimed for but there are things we can do right away.

As I suggested above reporting the people who misuse 121.5 is something that can be done now and will surely have a positive impact. Airfields have league tables for constant descent approach's so why not the same here. Coller the individuals and give their operators a reason to stop their pilots misusing 121.5

[London Mil]

Surely the whole purpose of monitoring 121.5 is to contact you when you have had a freq switch pigs. The very fact you are on a busy sector with multiple freq changes etc means that you should recognise when you have a rt problem. If you are coming off the ocean early in the morning then your alarm bells should be ringing if you change to a 'quiet' ATC freq. At this point it may be advisable to turn-up 121.5. Up until then, there really shouldn't be any additional need to actively monitor 121.5.
One other thing, when you do have a switch pigs, who do you think it is who tries to call you on 121.5? D&D. Scaremongering about being shot down because you are not monitoring 121.5 is exacty that, scaremongering. The wider issue of unnecessary air defence launches is a matter for UK plc and not an abusive Lufthansa pilot.

[BigGrecian]

CAP 413 Appendix A:
Listening Watch on 121.5 MHz ICAO Requirements for Aeronautical Station Listening Watch on VHF emergency channel 121.5 MHz are not applied in UK.

VHF emergency channel frequency 121.5 MHz is not routinely monitored at civil aerodromes, however, it is monitored H24 at Area Control Centres with coverage over most of UK above 3000’ amsl.

You only need to monitor it if your company SOPs say you should.

Airmanship might dictate otherwise however.

[ElNino]

If mistaken calls weren't made on 121.5, there would be no need for Nigels main role of screaming "guard" within 2 milliseconds of the offending transmission occurring. Think of all the those Nigels with nothing to do, the joblessness, the unemployment, the starving children... Have some heart people :}

But in all seriousness, lets have a separate practice freq and also stop using guard for chatter.
On the other hand, there is NO need to start screeching "guard" everytime someone inadvertently transmits, as they usually realise when no-one answers them that there's been a mistake. Try to relax, finish your sudoku and stop annoying the rest of us!

[gone till november]

Must admit than when i was training to be an instructor, my instuctor made a very good point about using D&D for practice was to take away some of the mystery and "dont go there" feelings some have.

I learnt alot from the lesson and glad i did it.

Sometimes i hear ATC calling a/c who for what ever reason hasnt heard a call on box 1 and if that stops a Typhoon sent up then so be it.

What really pisses me off is that some people use it as a chat frequency. This is prevalent in Europe especially Germany where its difficult enough trying to listen out on box 1 and have crap (usually not in English) transmitted on box 2. :ugh: :mad: :ugh:

These are the people who should be hung drawn and quartered.

[Roffa]

Not quite Keats or Wordsworth, but the sentiment is there (http://www.ukga.com/forum/viewthread.cfm?forumThreadId=5330#firstnew).

[ManaAdaSystem]

So UK student pilots will not be able to remember 121,5 unless they have practice PAN'ed a number of times? And if they do remember, their TX finger will fall off and they will crash and burn before they dare to transmit on this mysterious freq?

Better keep up the practice PAN's, then guys!

It used to be a requirement to monitor 121,5. Maybe not in the UK but as somebody said, the airwaves do not stop at the border.

Flying around Europe I hardly ever hear any misuse of 121,5, except for the occasional misplaced call, and the practice PAN's.

Flying around the Middle East, the frequency is blatantly misused, largely by Indians calling Indians. I would think that with two carrier groups and various other warships in the vicinity, everybody was intent on keeping 121,5 free from clutter, but no.

Essentials like; "Where are you going", "Good Morning, Captain" and "happy landings" has priority.

[Diddley Dee]

MAS

Practice Pan calls in the UK are not a "misuse of 121.5Mhz".

All the airline chatter on it is, this is getting very tedious I suggest the professional aircrew sort their own misuse of 121.5 out before complaining bitterly about PPL and CONTROLLER training on it.

Incidentally I have 45 mins to run to the end of my shift. During todays shift I have received 1 PPL call and listened to approx 35 calls made by CAT. One of which was a very informative PA call which lasted about 1 minute and was immediately commented on (in a banter jokey fashion) by about 10 airline pilots.

What has surprised me is the poll by CAT pilots is not a landslide objection to 121.5 being used for PP calls :D

Finally I have just totalled up the PP & TF calls made on 121.5 so far this month ...102 thats 4.25 calls a day... hardly clogging the airwaves are they?
DD

[DFC]

Practice Pan calls in the UK are not a "misuse of 121.5Mhz".

Not according to ICAO. and more importantly Only if you have agreement from other stations outside the UK which may be affected.

All the airline chatter on it is

Agreed. Regardless of position

Finally I have just totalled up the PP & TF calls made on 121.5 so far this month ...102 thats 4.25 calls a day... hardly clogging the airwaves are they?

Every call that infringes on what should be a silent period is simply not aceptable. Other emergency frequencies which D+D should be familiar with have in certain cases shared purposes and silent minutes. Any use of silent periods for anything other than listening for that weak last gasp distress call is an abuse of that period.

What the UK forget is that the 121.500000000Mhz silent period is H24.

Unless they can find some way of stopping their intentional non-emergency use of 121.5 stopping at the FIR boundary then they risk being held responsible for the reduction of other nation's ability to provide their responsibilities uner international agreements.

Just waiting for the Ryanair pilot to report to the IAA that they were unable to talk on 121.5 to the appropriate controller for the airspace they were in (ICAO requirement) because some part time recreational pilot in some adjacent UK FIR was doing some crap which was not obvous to the ground station.

In simple terms is it safe for UK pilots (regardless of qualification) to block the distress frequency of other nations in that nation's airspace?

Regards,

DFC

Hello, is that 999, I am calling from italy to check my english and the line quality. You are also wanting to check your english/italian understanding so please feel free to ask me some questions.

[V1]

The only reason our SOP to monitor 121.5 was introduced was so that ATC could get hold of you and cancel the fighters from scrambling when you inadvertently forgot to reset the volume after getting the ATIS and were sat there wondering why it was so quiet.

Personallly I don't bother over the UK. ATC coverage is good enough to recieve distress calls on 121.5 over most of the country and the Practice Pan always comes at the same time as a call from London for avoiding action.

However as I set out across the Bay of Biscay it goes on as I know how I would feel sat there in a raft with only the beep of the ELB to keep my spirits up!

[J.O.]

I cannot condone the tone that was used in reaction to the practise pan. But, if 121.5 is to be the "international standard" emergency frequency, then there needs to be an international standard for its use. Right now the lack of such a standard, leading to it being used for practise, or folks abusing it for non-emergency communications, is the reason why this pilot acted unprofessionally. There are many places where 121.5 is abused, not just in the UK, and monitoring it can be a genuine pain in the arse some days. A colleague of mine sent me a photo of a fighter that intercepted his flight after a missed handoff at a European FIR boundary (ATC never gave the handoff), a very common occurrence in that particular place. There's so much non-emergency chatter on 121.5 in that area, virtually no one is monitoring it during the daylight hours.

And for those of us who spend most of our time in US airspace, where Homeland Security rules the day, failing to monitor 121.5 can mean you'll end up in the CP's office answering as to why you were flying close formation with a pair of F15s. There are numerous missed handoffs in US airspace, sometimes because the controllers are overloaded and forget about you, or your call gets trampled by someone who thinks it's okay to key the microphone switch 3 milliseconds after changing to a new frequency, rather than ensure that the frequency is clear for a few seconds. Sometimes, 121.5 is the only way for ATC to get us back.

At the end of the day, while I understand the need to ensure that student pilots know how to communicate in an emergency, I can't understand the need to use 121.5 to make the training effective. If they can practise forced landings without shutting down the engine, they can surely practise an emergency call on another frequency rather than 121.5, IMHO.

[TRon]

Sounds like this guy in birmingham felt oh so superior to the PPL'er...lets not forget we have all been there..

Get a grip..

[Final 3 Greens]

I cannot condone the tone that was used in reaction to the practise pan. But, if 121.5 is to be the "international standard" emergency frequency, then there needs to be an international standard for its use.

Understand the sentiment, but how many differences has the USA filed with ICAO (not referring just to radio?) BTW, I realise that you are Canadian ;)

Each state tends to have some non standard filings, so one must learn about them, understand the impact and then work around it.

[pj-hypersonic]

I'm not sure what quality of practice pan calls a lot of these comments are based on, but when I get my students to make the call, they have their "speech" written out already and their total transmit time on the freq is only around 20-30 secs. Combine that with the D&D transmit time of the same, 1 minute of speech spread over 3-4 mins is hardly the end of the world.

Btw, I will be continuing to get all of my students to make these practice calls as per CAA advice, and if we get told to **** off, I will simply maintain professionalism, and ignore it.

It's a shame people forget that they were once a student learning to fly, and trying to build their confidence.

[Diddley Dee]

DFC

As I said earlier most pilots and controllers affected can see the benefit of a seperate freq and surely you can seee the benefit of having a cell such as D&D especially to those pilots flying outside CAS in the UK airspace.

So why do people such as yourselves complain about PP calls on 121.5 but yet hardly complain about the misuse of 121.5 by some CAT operators. The percentage of PP calls to inadveratant CAT calls is tiny!!!! Surely after all the training a commercial pilot goes through he should be able to transmit of the correct frequency? Please lets have some balance here..... a few calls a day against regular calls by CAT. Wouldnt it be ironic if next time I'm out pootling around I have 121.5 on box 2 and start having a go at CAT every time one of the Pros cocks up:ugh:

As I started this thread I feel its worth reiterating, I was not complaining at all about the misuse of 121.5 by CAT, I was objected to being told to Pi$$ off whilst doing the job I am paid to do. Incidentally that was not the first time a few months ago we were invited to go forth & multiply by the same airline. Why should I or the pilot we were talking to listen to that sort of abuse?

DD

[Ashling]

I really don't think the majority have any objection to practise pan calls as such. The majority of commercial pilots can indeed well remember what it was like learning and PPs provide a great training tool. The bloke DD originaly referred to who lost his rag has been roundly condemned by all for his behaviour.

The issues here seem to me to be 2fold.

1. Stop the misuse of 121.5 That does not stop PPs or penalise people for accidentaly transmitting on the wrong freq but it does mean reporting and following up casual chat eg "anyone know if liverpool won ?"

2. Do we want a seperate freq for PPs and training ? In my view we do.

Even a minute or two's RT at the wrong time can have a detrimental effect. I seem to remember a Harrier Crash when the pilots mayday was blocked by a PP. That was the straw that broke the camels back and led to a practise freq in the mil. Someone may only have a brief window to get the call out so lets keep the channel free to hear that last cry for help

[London Mil]

Ashling, you may be right. The really sad thing is that the instantaneous trace of that last gasp call, stored in the D&D auto-T display, will be immediately over-written by the chorus of "you're on guard" calls made my those overflyers who have the time and inclination to chip in. At least two occurences last year where D&D were working real emergencies and being hindered by the 'self-policing' brigade.

[captjns]

It's good practice for both tryo learning how to fly, and for ATC. I find objectionable the fact that some crews of well known airlines treat 121.500 as their private frequency to conduct their own conversations rather than switching to 123.450. I have not found practice "PANs" obusive at all... even on the best of VFR days when there is an over abundance of training especially during weekends.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I was objected to being told to Pi$$ off whilst doing the job I am paid to do. Incidentally that was not the first time a few months ago we were invited to go forth & multiply by the same airline. Why should I or the pilot we were talking to listen to that sort of abuse?

Formal reporting action, including the relevant RT tapes copied to the CAA for further action against the pilot and/or operator involved, is the only way to deal with this type of problem. Unless regulatory action is taken, the perpetrators will continue in their ways since they are sky gods who can do no wrong ;)

[London Mil]

pprune radar, I agree. I think that was my first tack when reading DD's comments.

[rubik101]

How did you know he was over BHX? fmgc, how come you asked this question? You don't know as much about aviation as you would have us believe, do you?

[overstress]

What amuses me is those calls you get on 121.5 in mid-Atlantic, where the person making the call includes the words "transmitting on guard", trying to regain comms with Shanwick/Gander, and some joker comes up with "you're on guard"...

[Rickford]

I have read this thread with some interest as once I was a military ATCO, before I became responsible for developing some of Diddly Dee's systems and then the finance of some them before retiring and becoming a flying instructor.
The ideal solution would be to provide a separate training frequency however there are a few points to consider....
1. You really need to mimic the auto triangulation system otherwise otherwise what training value are you getting out of the call).
2. Who should provide the service?
3. Who should pay?
The military bolted on their practice frequency on to their existing 243 UHF DF facilities and made use of generally existing facilities. This option is not quite so easy for the VHF system which was only really designed to stop CAS intrusions in the South of England (who said there wasn't a North South divide) Seeing as this system was financed by NATS who have now been privatised UK it probably unlikely they would fund it off their own bat.
My own view is the financial case for the ideal solution is unlikely to get past Gordo's treasury and NATS will argue it is outside their remit. But the need to introduce u/t pilot's to D&D's services so they realise that if they call on 121.5 there will be a highly trained, non-judgemental (couldn't be punt at anyone), controller who is there to help them is sufficiently important that we should learn to cope with the occasional inconvenience.
As to when you should listen to 121.5 in the UK perhaps a rule of thumb is when you are talking frequently to ATC and therefore really monitoring the ATC frequency then 121.5 could be muted but when you personal r/t load is diminishing (the cruise) then it should be monitored.
My personal controlling experience has included several occasions where ac under my control have inadvertantly,due to cockpit errors, ceased to hear ATC transmissions. Two of them were airliners who both caused considerable consternation and definitely were not monitoring 121.5. Of the military ac they nearly always responded to prod on 243.0 although I will always have fond memory of one our Atlantic cousins who managed to fly from 10W to Dover without answering any r/t calls, causing havoc in the London TMA, and then came on frequency to complain he hadn't been given his airway clearance.....

[411A]

Hmmm, from many of the responses, it appeares that this is a UK problem.
Therefore, it would also appear that the UK should concur with the rest of the worlds ATC, and put this practise PAN nonsense to bed, permanently.
One wonders, when will they wake up?
Answers on a postcard.
Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.:uhoh:

[Il Duce]

Rubik101.
It's known he was over Birmingham because when he transmitted "pi$$ off practise pan" an auto-triangulation DF fix was immediately provided on him. Transfer that to the radar screen which sits next to the VDF screen and his SSR code/callsign conversion is readily available.

[Flybywyre]

Didley Dee (or someone else)..........
As this is not the first time this particular outfit has abused you and your colleagues why don't you let us know who they are ?
I can't see that it would do any harm, in fact it could have the opposite effect and make them think twice before being so rude and unprofessional.
Regards
FBW

[Diddley Dee]

FBW

I am off skiing tomorrow in Banff. I am very pleased that I am not flying Lufthansa.........

Moli:ok:

[Flybywyre]

I hope that you have a very pleasant holiday .......... :ok:
FBW

[VP TAA]

The increasing trend of non emergency transmitions on 121.5 is going to defeat the purpose of having an emergency frequency at all. Eventually the majority,who have to sit there and listen to practice calls ,are going to deselect 121.5 and reselect only when they know its going to be used for the purpose for wich it was intended...Emergency.But thats going to be about 500miles from the coast and defeats the purpose of 121.5
Maybe they dont need high altitude aircraft monitoring 121.5 anymore?, maybe the land based system is better ?I dont know, but let us know,because for every pilot that actually complanes or reacts to unessesary transmitions on121.5 there are at least one thouand that feel the same way!!!
VP TAA

[WorkingHard]

VPTAA said "The increasing trend of non emergency transmitions on 121.5 is going to defeat the purpose of having an emergency frequency at all. Eventually the majority,who have to sit there and listen to practice calls"
Why oh why do you lump non emergency transmissions on 121.5 with the VERY FEW practise calls in the UK. IT IS THE CAT guys and gals that account for 90% or so of the incorrect use. Go on tell me please why?

[Final 3 Greens]

Therefore, it would also appear that the UK should concur with the rest of the worlds ATC, and put this practise PAN nonsense to bed, permanently.

Of course, the USA doesn't file any differences with ICAO, does it?

Change (however slowly) comes to the old world....eventually, one would hope.

Too true. One of these days the US will get "follow the lights" taxiway lighting like the UK and then LEX type accidents and runway incursions might happen a little less frequently.

Sadly, the ole dinosaur USA takes it's time to get over the "not made here" syndrome.

[FullWings]

IT IS THE CAT guys and gals that account for 90% or so of the incorrect use. Go on tell me please why?
That may or may not be true but if it is, how is this 90% defined? If it is based on the number of aircraft transmitting on 121.5 as opposed to the amount of time spent by aircraft practicing emergencies on air and the replies from the ground, I can see how this would be misleading.

A large amount of traffic on 121.5 is from mis-selection of frequencies, i.e. trying to call your company on box 2. This is usually brought to a quick halt by others on the frequency as it is not deliberate; this sort of transmission is short and the content is such that it is easy to ignore. A practice emergency goes on for much longer and is hard to block out as there are many serious aviation related words used in the ensuing conversation.

I think practice emergencies are good for both the pilot and the controller and are something I would like to see continue in the UK. I do think we need another frequency for this as the UK is at odds with all the neighbours on this one...

[StudentInDebt]

Since it seems to be CAT that has the burning desire to monitor a frequency during the cruise (without interruption from distress calls, SAR operations, mandatory calls and training calls in the UK) and since it is also CAT that has apparently been shown to be misusing 121.5 the most perhaps it should be CAT that is allocated a new frequency.

[Diddley Dee]

Just come in for my last night shift before leave :) As I walk in the door a CAT overflyer is treating us to piped music over 121.5......:sad:

Really dont understand the complaining about PP calls when there is so much more rubbish Tx over 121.5 by comparison.... surely that could do with being cleaned up first before getting at the authorised use by filed differences of 121.5 by London Centre & its PP calls?

If anyone is interested.....PP / TF calls made today on 121.5...... 4.........Time between each PP/TF call 57 mins, 3 hrs 20 mins and 2 hrs 59 mins. That my friends is a typical day for this time of year, I accept that there will be more per day in the summer months but it is insignificant over the year, when compared with the non essential tx made by CAT. Indeed PP/ TF calls have been reducing over recent years

2004 3772 equating to 10.3 a day
2006 2782 equating to 7.6 a day

Please bear mind that the figures above include UHF PP & TF calls which therefore inflates the numbers significantly as regards VHF use.

And before anyone asks no I dont have the stats for inadvertant non op calls on 121.5, we did go through a period of time last year logging them so that the CAA (I recall) could get an accurate picture on the PP vs CAT debate and those figures were at the basis of the report which demonstrated unequivically that CAT tx were far far in excess of PP & TF calls made by GA pilots exercising their legitimate right to use 121.5.


DD

[dash6]

Dear D D how dare you! As I understand it Guard freq.is for demos of latest ring tones,chat between cabin crew,baseball scores(of course!) Cricket scores(For shame!!) Stupid cock crow noises at dawn wherever they are;and of course position reports from folk who transmitted inadvertentlyand got a go ahead from one of the above idiots. Very funny guys but I was trying to sleep!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Funny how very few of these calls are from U.K.pilots. Perhaps it is because they learn the correct use,and importance of 121.5 early in their training by practice?

[YouNeverStopLearning]

I go away for a couple of years and discover on returning that nothings changed when it comes to ill-conceived opinion on PPRUNE... oh and also not addressing the question!

a/ 121.5 is the emergency frequency;
b/ In the UK "Practice PANS" are permitted and encouraged;
c/ “Practice PANS” are actually rare events.

Anything else on 121.5 including, but not exclusively, chit chat, music, swearing, mistakes, etc… are all actual, real and illegal abuses of 121.5.

A “Practice PAN” in UK airspace on 121.5 is not an abuse of any kind. Accept it, live with it and you won’t stay a bitter, irritated “professional”[sic] pilot. Having moved through light and GA to get to commercial I don’t have a problem with it at all.
NATS stats show that approximately 90% of incorrect transmissions on 121.5 are by commercial pilots.

I wonder how many of you “professionals” still think “nnxxx is declaring an emergency” is a valid transmission?

I know for the record that some commercial pilots have never read CAP413.

[spannerless]

:D

I have to agree with Capt H,

I too have spent many an hours listening to 121.5 VHF along with HF Guard frequencies whilst on the Search and Rescue and witnessed and involved such incidents where the so called professional set have interfered with Rescue operation communication for simple mistakes (Listen, don't talk or advise thats someone else's job)

I have to congratulate a few though who down to their Professionalism aircraft and and lives that might not have been saved.

I remeber one such afternoon between myself and a passing aircraft communications were passed to the relevent agencies a lost aviator was able to return safley with no loss of aircraft or life (Note a commercial aircraft helping a training GA aircraft!).

Isn't that how aviation is supposed to be?

Capt H Peacock

I listened in disbelief the other day whilst a rescue operation, which as it happens was being conducted in French, was continuallly interrupted by several of these self-appointed 'point 5 police.

They should be ashamed.

[DubTrub]

About 10 years ago, I got lost in a GA light single low over the English Channel in IMC with no IMC-suitable equipment. My PanPanPan Relay to D&D was via CAT, one of whom provided invaluable assistance to me.
One other CAT berated my CAT relay friend for using guard for non-essential use! Unbelievable.
Happy skiing, DDM;)

[ERIK C]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/fod200608.pdf

The numbers speak for themselves: 1% PP&TF versus 75% erroneous or inadvertent calls by commercial pilots.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Returning from sunny Spain a few days ago. While crossing the Bay of Biscay a certain well know British carrier was talking to one of their franchise operators if they were able to take a higher flight level so they could go up also. This whole conversation lasted approx. 4 minutes because the well known airline was desperately explaining why he wanted to climb from FL340 to FL360. And no, there was no turbulence in the area.

I do appreciate that sometimes you make the wrong selection and therefor transmit on guard. But if you are going to have whole conversations that have nothing to do with flight safety than stay of GUARD. As long as CAT make these non-essential calls on GUARD, i don't think we have a valid reason to deny GA the use of GUARD for a practice pan.
Just my 2p's

[1A380]

I monitor guard as SOP , don't mind if we hear practice calls but get just as irritated as others when it is abused, However I sometimes wonder if it was a 'silent' frequency would I realise in time my COMMS was not working and was I about to become another statistic of 'PLOC'? The lack of 'chat' on 121.5 has alerted me twice now to a 'sleeping' receiver.

[Flying Microphone]

Well said spannerless:
I remember one such afternoon between myself and a passing aircraft communications were passed to the relevent agencies a lost aviator was able to return safely with no loss of aircraft or life (Note a commercial aircraft helping a training GA aircraft!).
Isn't that how aviation is supposed to be?
It should be a two way thing. As a PPL I have, on a number of occasions (mostly overseas) acted as a conduit to pass airways clearances etc between ATC and CAT who, for one reason or another, were unable to hear each other.
The first time it happened was on a flight from Larnaca to Beirut in a PA28. listened as Beirut tried to pass a clearance to a Middle East Airlines Airbus. Several attempts were made before I offered to act as a conduit. ATC accepeted my offer and I passed on the details to the ME jet. The Beirut controller made a point of coming to thank me on landing (which was nice :) !)
One of the main reasons for feeling able to offer help was having learnt to fly in busy SE England airspace and having 121.5 disciplines driven into me from day one of training. Oh, that and being able to practice calls once in a blue moon with those always helpful D&D people. :D
My point is that we can be there for each other, that we are not in competition for resources and that most (if not all) PPL's strive to be good airmen/women in the same way that our professional counterparts do.
It really is 2-way-traffic!

[Ashling]

quite right it should be 2-way and we should look after each other. This should in no way become a them and us thing. We all share the same sky and the risks involved with being in it.

I agree with torquewrench that CAT needs to clean up its act and that has to be the 1st step. The only way that will happen is if misuse is reported appropriately. Maybe fines could be introduced for companies with a poor record ! That ought to focus a few minds especially if 3 points get added to your license ....

Then perhaps the issue of a seperate frequency could be looked at. I accept the evidence that PPs are infrequent but Murphy will have his say and the emerg wil occur when the freq is blocked. Also how many GA pilots are discouraged from using 121.5 for PPs as they know its an emerg freq and don't want to cause hassle or block it. If there was a practise freq maybe more people would feel able to use it more often and that means better training for all.

[slam_dunk]

This subject ; practice Pan's on 121.5; has long been something i really don't understand.
I was tought that 121.5 is an Emergency frequency, and should be used for that purpose ONLY.
I've posted before here on Pprune on the subject before , and i think it's a very wise idea to create a seperate frequency for practice pan's.

[FREDAcheck]

From slam_dunk:
I was tought that 121.5 is an Emergency frequency, and should be used for that purpose ONLY.
Yes, but the question that I and several others are asking is why you regard Practice PANs as such a problem, when the VAST MAJORITY of non-urgent traffic comes from commercial aircraft. Only a small proportion is practice PANs.

Shouldn't you be more concerned about the major causes of non-urgent traffic, which are erroneous commercial calls, exchanging football scores etc? Why are you picking on practice PANs? At least they have a useful safety training element, which (with the greatest of respect) exchanging football scores do not. If we are to have a separate frequency for practice PANs (slim chance), should we also have one for football scores?

[RoyHudd]

Everyone should be able to transmit whatever they like on 121.5. After all, it's their human right, yes?

Or maybe , just maybe, there should be a dedicated freq. for emergencies only. The debate goes on.................:ugh:

[ChristiaanJ]

Maybe there should be a separate frequency for the football scores and the daily chat show?

Wiat a minute.... isn't that 123.45?

Or use 122.75 and 122.85. It'll upset those damn GA pilots no end.

[HGFC1]

I hate all this bickering amonst people who may never have had to use 121.5. I have had to use it andI will always be grateful to both D&D and the lovely Emirates Pilot who relayed messages as I had, amongst other things, radio problems. PLEASE do NOT stop listening out.

[PENKO]

What if on a nice sunny weekend day, the individual governments of the whole of Western Europe decide that triangulation must be practiced as often as posible on a real emergency frequency.

The French calling PANE pratisse, PANE pratisse, je suis un petite cessna..
The Germans calling ALAAARM! PAAN!!! PAAN!!! vor praktis ja!
The Dutch pgrrraktis PAN, pappa hoooootel alfaaaaa bgrrraaaaavooo sharlie...
Then the Belgians...
The Danes...
The Irish..

The poor English chap 12 miles southwest of Aylesbury who is really having a hard time finding his way home will have to wait on his turn. I guess.

[WorkingHard]

Penko - yes BUT he will also have to wait until the 90% of RT traffic from CAT shutup with their idle chatter.
I do not have any information about the rest of the world but in the UK CAT is in a minority of air movements and also a minority of registered aircraft, so please get things into perspective. Please dont expect the MAJORITY to bow down because you cannot accept you are simply wrong.

[Boneman]

Err...you need to practice a distress call because???

[ChristiaanJ]

Boneman,
"Err...you need to practice a distress call because???"
What "Twilight Zone" are you in?
Even a total ignoramus like me has by now figured out from reading this thread, that in the UK a PAN call on 121.5 will get you a position fix within seconds, IF you make the correct call, and IF you can handle the reply in real time, something you don't learn from books.
So rather than flying into a stuffed hill while trying to figure out the procedure, you practice.
Not to mention (too many before me have done so) that the controllers also appreciate practicing, and prefer having somebody coming on the frequency already knowing what she/he is doing..... rather than commenting the football scores.
But then I expect you're the sort of person who doesn't know where you spare tyre is in your car.

[PENKO]

Honest question. Why do controllers need to practise every single day?
How hard is it to say: you are 10 miles southwest of Aylesbury after you read it off your screen?

[WorkingHard]

Consider this - in the face of ovewhelming evidence that the abuse is from the "professional" drivers why is it that those same people cannot accept it is they who are the problem and still try to put the spotlight back to a very very few GA pilots? Do you take this attitude onto the flight deck with you? What does this say about your professionalism?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Never actually done a PP myself - but after reading this thread I'll make a point of doing one tomorrow.

[Ashling]

What a shame the thread is descending into pointless bickering and point scoring.

On the whole I had the impression that most here GAT/CAT/ATC accept that CAT are the main culprits as far as misuse goes. The only real finger pointing has been at the muppet who swore on .5

Can we please keep this constructive and not let it get into a them and us thing.

[Final 3 Greens]

Ashling

As a PPL I agree with your sentiment.

It seems to me that the situation is thus...

1) The UK works differently to other states

2) The UK system is filed with ICAO

3) We all (I hope) agree that a discrete frequency would be good

4) Sadly that appears unlikely to happen

5) We all have to live with each other in the airspace

6) We need to make the best of the current situation

7) As a PPL, that means I should accept inadvertent transmissions on .5 as part of the game, since CAT pilots are not perfect and given the frequency of flights, there are bound to be some mistakes

8) On a reciprocal basis CAT pilots need to accept PPs and TFs, because the D&D cell encourage those for all the reasons stated in the thread

9) None of us should use the frequency for chat or other non appropriate purposes

10) No pilot, regardless of his/her licence privileges, should abuse anyone on any frequency

I realise that some foreign pilots don't particularly like this PP and TF practice and I can understand why , but it is the way things are done in the UK.

Some people don't like the Brit cuisine either, but is comes with being here too :}

Safe flying everyone.

[captjns]

Hey Gert... do two... they're actually small. Every instructor should have their students demonstrate a practice "PAN... PAN... PAN". It's a two way street... The student is able to learn what to do if a problem arises, especially during the early stages of solo and cross country flying... and the controller can practice their procedures too.

The fact is, the abusers of 121.5 are here to stay, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

At the end of the day is it such an imposition to practice and promote safety?

[Francis Frogbound]

At the risk of drifting the thread slightly I recently relayed on 121.5 for a helicopter VERY close to the edge of the LHR zone. He had been caught out by grot weather and was trapped in a valley unsure of what to do. Two local airfields had no VDF facility and by pure luck I knew the valley he was in (based at the same airfield) I'd like to say a big thank you to the gentleman from the Netherlands who from a position west of Ireland kept on telling me I was on guard, and in doing so kept trampling on communications between myself and D&D and a very frightened low time PPL who couldn't hear D&D due to his altitude.

Gentleman in the helo landed safely in a field. Gentleman in the 747, have you no idea what "for relay PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN" means you idiot?
A call of "you're on guard" is on thing. trying to start an argument in that situation is utterly stupid. I didn't swear at you on 121.5 but I certainly did over the intercom.

[PENKO]

Just a small observation.

We in UK aviation are usually the first in line to condemn countries like Spain and France for speaking in their native tongue on the ATC frequency. Something that ICAO allows them to do.

Then why are we so surprised and defensive ('it is our right!, we filed a difference with ICAO!') when local and foreign pilots question this NON STANDARD use of a discrete international emergency frequency?

Must be human nature.


I say:
1. One language in aviation
2. GPS-es in every single aircraft.

Fair deal?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Hey Gert... do two... they're actually small.
Well that was interesting.

I got "you're overhead Oundle" ... and I wasn't actually anywhere near Oundle, I was between Huntingdon and Grafham Water. I will bear this level of accuracy in mind if I ever have to call them up for real:(

(The other call that I heard whilst listening out for a couple of minutes before pressing the button was a call to "Excel operations" or somesuch.)

[Il Duce]

GtW, I heard your p.pan also and I'm sure the controller said that you were "indicating" over Oundle. Not sure, but I'd imagine that there is a limit to the accuracy of the VDF. If you weren't happy with the position report received, maybe you should have queried it and/or requested another (either via DF or radar). Happy flying.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'd imagine that there is a limit to the accuracy of the VDF.
I'm sure there is. But, as an ignorant punter, I'd have expected some sort of explicit warning if the accuracy was going to be such that the position was out by ten miles.

[Boneman]

Boneman,
"Err...you need to practice a distress call because???"
What "Twilight Zone" are you in?
Even a total ignoramus like me has by now figured out from reading this thread, that in the UK a PAN call on 121.5 will get you a position fix within seconds, IF you make the correct call, and IF you can handle the reply in real time, something you don't learn from books.
So rather than flying into a stuffed hill while trying to figure out the procedure, you practice.
Not to mention (too many before me have done so) that the controllers also appreciate practicing, and prefer having somebody coming on the frequency already knowing what she/he is doing..... rather than commenting the football scores.
But then I expect you're the sort of person who doesn't know where you spare tyre is in your car.

Oh, excuse me, most worshipful Gaelic Master. What an arse.

[ChristiaanJ]

Oh, excuse me, most worshipful Gaelic Master. What an arse.I'm your Dutch uncle, actually. Never mind.

[Il Duce]

GtW, I know this is nothing to do with the main thread but, I had a chat with somebody who knows about such stuff and it turns out that your DF fix was well outside the required tolerance of the kit at D&D - it's being looked into.

[egbt]

GtW, I know this is nothing to do with the main thread but, I had a chat with somebody who knows about such stuff and it turns out that your DF fix was well outside the required tolerance of the kit at D&D - it's being looked into.

Ah! another good reason for practice pans :)

On the only occasion my instructor did one ,some years ago, he made a point of reporting our position (a couple of miles different), probably to make the point we were not lost but it did also confirm the system was working to spec.

[Boneman]

I'm your Dutch uncle, actually. Never mind.

Displaying a bit of you Dutch courage I see.

[Il Duce]

It would appear that this situation could be solved if a dedicated VHF frequency were provided to D&D for practise pans........as there is on UHF.

[Final 3 Greens]

RTO

The data published by the UK CAA does not support your argument.

You obviously do not fly in the UK either, if you did, you would hear that most of the cluttering of 121.5 is by CAT making inadvertent transmissions.

One of the main reasons for practice pans is controller training.

It is a shame that we continue to receive such uninformed postings as yours on this thread.

Il Duce

I doubt that anyone would argue with your point, but the question is who should pay for it?

And unfortunately it would not help the inadvertent transmissions whcih can trample other messages.

[WorkingHard]

Final 3 Greens - dont expect a reasoned response from commercial pilots. For example
"How about if UK GA pilots would learn to navigate, instead of cluttering 121.5 with their endless chatter, perhaps causing aircraft monitoring to turn down the volume on their com2 hence rendering the emergency freq. useless" was posted by an ATPL but fails to accept that 90% of the endless chatter is from he and his ilk causing the problem in the first place. I have twice before posted on this thread asking why CAT cannot accept it is they who are causing 90% of the disruption but the ones posting here seem to have the old ostrich syndrome as far as CAT is concerned. 121.5 is of course the emergengy frequency and a LISTENING WATCH has to be maintained. It is NOT a general chat frequency and certainly any GA pilot in the UK who abused this even a fraction as much as does CAT would soon be "interviewed" by the appropraite department

[ibelieveicanfly]

IT is annoying to hear every kind of stuff on 121.5.
As we monitor this frequency all the time,it should be in my opinion used only for real emergencies.
finito

[jamestkirk]

This may have been covered in the many relpies on the seven+ pages of posts.

What maybe not known by the irline comunity is that training organisations are encouraged by D+D to contact them by students (with an FI on board of course) for practise PANS. This IS fact and backed up by the CAA with their trainingcom publications concerning the competancy/understanding of RT.

It's not just for controller training, but for a new PPL to feel comfortable to contact 121.5 and ask for help.

Any of you on this thread who are FI's are undoubtably aware that sometimes students and pilots who are in a bit of difficulty would feel a little uneasy calling 121.5 due to the unwarrented fear they may end up in the tower of london for a year or two. This is exactly why it is encouraged that GA pilots contact them to understand that they are human at London Centre

Occasionally, i hear airline guys/girls chatting on 121.5. I don't think it's professional when around busy UK airspace, but mid-altantic etc. ???.

[Final 3 Greens]

Working Hard

Thanks for your support.

I do think that have a good number of reasonable and balanced replies from CAT here.

The poll numbers are interesting too. 40% of professionals think there should be only one frequency.

Unfortunately people like RTO give the wrong impression; then again, RTO may not be a airline pilot.

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

ibelieveicanfly

When I fly in France, I am really uncomfortable with mixed languages being used at an airport, parc que je parle votre langue comme une vache Espagnol and my SA is degraded.

However, France filed a difference with ICAO and we should all respect that and realise that that is the way things are done in your country, taking that much more care to deal with the situation.

Equally, you need to take a similar view in the UK.

Maybe one day, everyone will agree to remove all the differences and make all of our lives a little easier.

[ShyTorque]

This has been mentioned before but some contributors obviously can't read. or don't want to listen....

The UK filed a difference with ICAO because it has auto-triangulation on 121.5Mhz. Other member states don't have this facility.

121.5 was in use today over UK. It was London Centre repeatedly (and I think unsuccessfully) trying to contact a 'Delta' callsign who obviously wasn't listening out on his allocated freq. It was a little inconvenient because I was trying to receive transmissions on a busy VHF box 1 at the time, in order to negotiate a transit of 'rapidly approaching' controlled airspace under IFR, in very turbulent conditions with a 65 kt tailwind.

Only a little inconvenient. I turned down the volume. When I had received my clearance......... guess what? I turned it UP again.

Maybe some of these whinging cojos could find the mental capacity to do the same, or get another job they can cope with. :ugh:

[Kit d'Rection KG]

The slant view...

'The UK is the only state to deem its private pilots so incompetent as to need to practise using a nanny service to provide them with assistance when they find themselves in trouble'...

Cat, these are pigeons; pigeons, meet the cat...

[Final 3 Greens]

'The UK is the only state to deem its private pilots so incompetent as to need to practise using a nanny service to provide them with assistance when they find themselves in trouble'...


Nonsense. The UK 121.5 service just offers some more functionality than the others and the controllers require more practice thus D&D request for PPS and TFs.

BTW it is also used to assist commercial traffic in distress, not all CAT is shiny tubes at FL350.

I wish people would stop trying to stir the muck up here, we all fly in the same skies and GA is contributing little clutter on .5 according to the data.

[Thrush]

Shy Torque: Yes, quite right - you can turn it down and up!! Well said.
Burgerbun you are a disgrace to our profession with an attitude like that.
121.5 Police: Keep it buttonned - you never know when you'll need it - it may not be just the " __________ " (insert your appropriate foreign language) chatting away, but a real emergency, you dopes!
Keep up the practice pans they may save lives.
Capt Canesten

[HGFC1]

Occasionally, i hear airline guys/girls chatting on 121.5. I don't think it's professional when around busy UK airspace, but mid-altantic etc. ???.
JamesTK -do you know how VHF radio works? The Emirates Pilot who relayed messages for myself and D&D was somewhere way out over continental Europe at the time. He wasn't over the UK. In actual fact I couldn't hear the pilot in the UK who was also trying to help. The person helping me could just as easily have been out over the Atlantic.

[jamestkirk]

You obviuosly did not read my post properly.

It's great that someone picked up your call. They may not have done if someone was chatting away. I put three ??? after the comment because I was not sure how widespread the chatter is over atlantic etc. Or the view of D+D about that.

It's been clearly put by someone before with evidence from the CAA to back it up that pract. pans take 1% and un-necessary chatter 75%. It's funny that the debate on this thread by some (not you HGFC) still are agruing the point.

How VHF works ? Does that mean Very High Flight to pick up the signal

[Sleeve Wing]

I've been watching the bickering on this thread for a while now.
It appears that the main belligerents are non-Brit Long-haul Pilots who have really no conception of :-
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.
4. There is not complete Radar cover over the island therefore nobody to
point out to the student should he/she stray towards CAS.

It follows therefore that it is very easy for a student pilot to infringe CAS very quickly, if he/she becomes uncertain of their position.

This is exacerbated in a number of cases by the problem in the UK of being restricted in max. altitude by said CAS. This therefore prevents the pilot from climbing higher to achieve a greater, more accurate picture of his geographical position. Its a known fact that it is more difficult to navigate low-level and, in addition, a great deal of specific areas of Britain can look exactly the same at such heights.

So, in the UK,from a safety point of view, it is considered that the lesser of two evils is for Instructors to teach students/ student controllers the use of the EMC frequency in the form of a PAN call to establish their position rapidly , and without fear, before causing a major disaster.

As a matter of interest, my personal opinion is that a practice call on the ACTUAL EMC frequency, properly taught, is a quick and poignant reassurance to a student that it works. It also convinces him/her that this is acceptable and there will be no repercussions from the Authorities.

You guys want to chat to relieve the boredom ? Go find your own frequency.

Blue skies,
Sleeve. :=

[jamestkirk]

totally agree.

[Lon More]

Think I found a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qdsv2CRHjk) of Monarch Man at work..
Personal opinion; practice pans - no problem, traffic permitting; requests for football/cricket/rugby scores - no chance; requests by "the xyz 123, "we will be entering your airspace in about 30 minutes and would appreciate direct routing. We have already contacted the military and they have no objection." Note, no "please" or "thank you." Yeah, right, If anybody gets a delay, guess who is candidate #1? Before anyone jumps in I know i'm down here because you are up there, not the other way round; and a direct routing was always given where traffic allowed

[chrisbl]

It appears that the main belligerents are non-Brit Long-haul Pilots who have really no conception of :-
1. How small the UK is.
2. At any one time, the large number of GA aircraft over the island.
3. A great deal of the UK is covered with CAS, a lot of it down to quite low
levels, unlike for example, the US, France and Scandinavia.


It is worth pointing out that the CAS referred to is Class A airspace reserved mainly for the CAT. It is a bit of a bummer flying around at 2300' with the Class A floor at 2500'. It is easy to get a bit unsure of position when you are swiviling that head to watch out for all the other traffic whizzing around at the same altitudes.

An American friend was surprised going along the M25 from Denham to Stapleford how close all the aircraft seemed to be. Back home he would have called them near misses.

Not the place to be doing orbits if you can help it.

[London Mil]

RTO, there are approximately 1200 ppans a year in the UK, this includes 245.1 which I guess you don't ordinarily listen to;) . Is that really a large amount of chatter? As far as lost aircraft are concerned, surely the fact that someone is trying to get the aircraft "un-lost" contributes towards safety and is not a threat to safety.

As for all the other claptrap, I fully agree - far too much chatter, mostly from foreign aircrew!!

[Final 3 Greens]

RTO

It is a threat to safety

Perhaps then you should re-route to avoid UK airspace?

[S205-18F]

KRKG
I have been saved by using 121.5 and live to tell the tale. I am also thankful of the tremendous help and suport of our commercial brethren and of course the fabulous crew at D&D :ok: :D

[PENKO]

1200 a year may sound insignificant to you London MIL...
However, people who practice PANS overwhelmingly fly on weekends with good weather. Those 1200 pratice PANS you talk about are very much concentrated over a few sunny weekends.
And my oh my what a clutter it produces! ;)

Furthermore, a misdialed frequency takes a few seconds to sort out.
A practice PAN goes on and on and on in comparison!

disclaimer to keep the peace: please continue practising whatever you need to practise, on live emergency frequencies or otherwhise. That is your infrastructure, adhere to it, it may save your life. But do not immediately dismiss those who question the practice as a bunch of foreign pilots who have nothing to say.

[Sleeve Wing]

With respect, gentlemen, I feel that all I can suggest to RTO and PENKO et al is that they concentrate more on the Sector frequency, especially when in UK airspace, and leave 121.500 alone until it is a little more quiet.
Your transit (or Approach) Control is far more important to your flight than having the volume turned up on Box 2 or 3.
LHR/LGW for example are just a little bit more busy than CPH most of the time. :ugh: :=
Rgds, Sleeve.

[WorkingHard]

PENKO - you said "And my oh my what a clutter it produces" You and most commercial contibutors here just ignore the FACT that over 90% of the transmissions are unwarranted and unjustified "chatter" from the commercial operators so why do you persist in blaming GA?

[PENKO]

WorkinHard, it is not a CAT versus GAT thing.
Any CAT-pilot will immediately aknowledge the fact that there is too much 'chatter' on 121.5, be it inadvertantly (fingertrouble when manipulating multiple radios on a multiple sector day) or otherwhise.

So, I do not persist in blaming GA only. Read my disclaimer. I fully recognise that practise PANS are legitimate use of 121.5, I fully recognise that CAT plays a substantial part in chatter, but is it, in your turn, so hard to admit that on certain sunny days these practise PANS also add a fair deal to the chatter?

[Ashling]

In fairness to Penko he did just encourage you to keep practising.

I think us CAT chaps generaly accept that we are the prime offenders in terms of abuseing 121.5 ( Practise Pans of course are not an abuse ) We have got that far with this thread at least so given that perhaps we could stop wittering on and point scoring off each other and discuss ways to motivate individuals and companies to mend their ways. I made a couple of suggestions earlier on, any thoughts ?

That said CAT drivers are still allowed, I hope, to express annoyance at Practise Pans cluttering up 121.5 ( not in the air though ) It may be only a small number in real terms but at times it seems to be more. And yes I do have the wit to turn gaurd off climbing out of or descending into terminal airspace iaw my companies SOP. I agree it is valuable practise for all and I in no way want to stop it. I just would like a seperate freq for it. The GAT world would probably get more value out of that than they do with the present system. From the poll above it would seem I am far from alone in that view.

[ChristiaanJ]

Ashling....
The issue of a separate practice frequency has been raised time and again on this thread. Great idea..... but....
- Let's not go back into all the subtleties and issues of frequency allocation on VHF, but the way it's done at the moment, there IS a shortage.
- D&D works on ONE frequency only at the moment (121.5, just in case anyone forgot). As said repeatedly, making it dual-frequency would require a lot of mods, new equipment, etc. ..... in other words, CASH, which does not seem to be forthcoming.
Sad, but true.
- Wouldn't a practice frequency become, in less than no time, a new chat frequency for CAT? Just think about it.

[Lon More]

Netherlands uses a common TWR/APP freq (118.7 IIRC) as a regional guard which removes the problem of cluttering. Furthermore Dutch Mil. provides FIS in most of the airspace anyway and are therefore aware of most of the traffic

[London Mil]

Someone mentioned duration of transmissions vs. number of transmissions.

February 2006

Total duration of PPAN calls - 1128 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 2706 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 8566 seconds

July 2006

Total duration of PPAN calls - 3488 seconds
Total duration of actual emergency calls - 3437 seconds
Total duration of chat/non-operational calls - 15068 seconds

The statistical peak of 15068 seconds was largely attributable to two particular afternoon/evening periods on 1 July and 4 July.

[Ashling]

I know Christiaan I was the one who originaly raised it back on page 1.

It would undoubtably be expensive, the mil managed it with 243 & 243.1 but then that was UHF. Personaly I don't think it would become the new chat freq, most CAT/GAT listen out on 121.5 not to keep upto date with the footie but to be in a position to help others and to be helped. Many have benifitted from that over the years. A-lot of CAT operators require it as SOP too. Most people therefore listen out on it for good reason and as we generaly only listen to 2 box's selecting a practise freq would not appear high on anyones list. If someone does want to chat freight train is on 123.4 and it would be just as easy to switch to that as to a practise freq.

So that leaves us with trying to stop people misusing 121.5 be they CAT or GAT. How do we do that ? I made some suggestions earlier so just wondered what you thought. Mariners tend to have the same snag with channel 16 so maybe its just insoluble but surly with a group of professionals that cannot be true ?

As an aside CAT abuse of 121.5 is always going to be more noticable as it tends to occur at 30 something thousand feet and has a large footprint. Equaly its CAT who hear it all for the same reason.

[Duchess_Driver]

If people are concerned about the amount of chatter on 'point-five' then surely we should all look at ways in which we can reduce the negligent / inadvertant use before we start on legitimate usage.

All through our training we're all taught to be accuarte in everything that we do - so why should that stop at the radio?

Personally, not in favour of 'training freq' - conditioning may we'll send somebody there when they really wanted 'point-five'. Sorry, can't take that chance.

[Cumulogranite]

At the risk of a proper lambasting from the commercial pilots here, I feel that a Practice Pan IS something that GA pilots should do. Please remember that you guys use the radio all day long and are used to it. Some GA guys, although perfectly good pilots, are not used to transmitting on a radio and become self concious that everyone can hear them. I myself don't have a problem, and in the past have been accused by instructors of sounding like a commercial pilot (nothing wrong with that for my money) but for those that are not totally at home with the radio it can seem a daunting place to be. If the wheel is coming off the last thing you need is to be worried about making a call to controller in D&D incase you "fluff your lines", therefore a practice now and again not only might give a bored controller something to do, but also means that the pilot is familiar with speaking to them, and when the day arrives when it's for real will feel more inclined to call them whilst the problem is still that, a problem, not an incident!

Finally, although we do appreciate the fact the the commercial guys monitor 121.5, it could help by relay if we are out of range, please don't appoint yourselves to role of guard police. If you have a problem with someone using the frequency for a practice then report it through the proper channels, son't launch into someone that might be scared of using the box in the first place!

[OxfordFlyer]

I'll hold my hands up and say I was one of those low-houred PPL studes who made a practice pan call on 121.5 a few weeks ago.

Before making the call, which my instructor had made me write down in the pre-flight, we listened out on frequency for 5/10 mins to make sure it was clear and then proceeded. We had to climb a bit to get a fix, my instructor taking control of any unexpected communications to minimise time on frequency, but the professionalism of the service was of the highest standard and I'd like to thank them for their time. Beforehand there was a mysterious and almost 'no-go' feeling of calling 121.5, but now I know what is on the other end and what can be expected, this feeling has evaporated.

Don't get me wrong, I won't be on 121.5 as first port of call if I've missed a waypoint by a couple of mins. As taught and learnt, I'll be looking out for landmarks, doing a few orbits to confirm my location, calculating what could have gone wrong, checking the fan lines on my chart, calling for QDMs, using NDBs, maybe talk to another airfield who can help me out, etc. etc., but it has certainly given me confidence in knowing that there is a safety net and exactly what to do if everything goes belly up. Much better than me trundling through CAS causing airliners to break off their approach, or stumbling into IMC and ending up as another CFIT stat (I don't have any intentions whatsoever of doing so, but mistakes happen and life is occassionally unpredictable).

Apologies to any CAT pilots who got a little miffed at the call:O. If I'm ever fortunate enough to fly as a career and hear a practise PAN on 121.5, I'll certainly remember the day I made mine and think there is another pilot who has learnt to use 121.5 correctly. From what I understand reading the thread, it may get a little tiresome hearing it 3 or 4 times a day, but I wouldn't begrudge them a practice pan, knowing how it has given me a much greater understanding, more confidence with and greater respect for the service provided on 121.5. I certainly won't be asking for football scores on it.

Just thought I would add a persepctive from a PPL stude.

[Ashling]

I think most of us CAT guy's have no issue with the need to practise and would encourage it for all the reasons given even if some of us would rather it was on a training freq. I have to accept that getting such a freq is somewhat unlikely. So keep on practising and enjoy your flying.

What we all want is 121.5 in the UK kept for what it was meant for and that means cutting down the mis-use of it. PPs are not a mis-use in the UK and are fine.

How we do that is the real issue.

[HGFC1]

JamesTK - I did read your post thoroughly and indeed have re-read it but this is what made me think you were saying that you thought that chatter on 121.5 out over the Atlantic was OK:

Occasionally, i hear airline guys/girls chatting on 121.5. I don't think it's professional when around busy UK airspace, but mid-altantic etc. ???.
It still reads as if that is what you think (at least that is the way it seems to me) so I'm sure you will understand my reaction to that idea. The information you supplied subsequently says that that isn't your meaning and I am very glad to hear it. I was very lucky and will always be very grateful to D&D and that Emirates pilot and also to the airfield FISO who followed all my calls even though unable to speak to or be heard by me.

[Say again s l o w l y]

OxfordFlyer, an excellent post.
I hope some of the anti brigade read it and realise that the world doesn't revolve around their monstrous egos!

The only time I've ever had call to do something about a transmission on 121.5 was when we heard an EPIRB signal whilst over the North Sea. It turned out to be nothing and had already been reported by other traffic, but it shows it pays to listen out!

Hearing practice pans etc. is just part and parcel of life. Getting steamed up about it is totally unnecessary, if listening to a few practice pans is whats required to get people happy using D&D, then so be it. It's a small price to pay.

[ShyTorque]

Quoted from the UK AIS NOTAM webpages:

EGTT
COM : Q)EGTT/QCAXX/IV/B/E/000/999/5244N00038W100
FROM 07/03/06 14:38 TO 07/03/16 23:59 EST U0496/07
E)DUE TO CONTINUED UNSERVICEABILITIES PRACTICE EMERGENCY TRAINING FREQ 245.1 WILL BE UNAVAILABLE WITHIN: THE VALE OF YORK, LINCOLNSHIRE AND EAST ANGLIA. TRAINING FIXES AND PRACTICE EMERGENCIES CONTINUE TO BE ENCOURAGED AND SHOULD BE DECLARED ON EIITHER 243.0 OR 121.5.

So, note the words in bold type and go for it, folks!! ;)

[jamestkirk]

I know what you mean. I even manage to confuse myself most of the time.

I agree with you and your your opinion on the help you recieved.

I am not supporting chatter. I was just curious that if you were a couple/few thousand miles from coastlines with VFR range, would anyone on the nearest coast pick it up. I was not sure that the chatterers were using thatas a reason why.

I will try and be a bit more clear. I was probably dealing with a student crying in my arms due to his/her lack of speed control on final.

[s artois]

As an intercontinental commercial pilot with over 10,000 hours flying experience I have never heard an actual distress call on 121.5.

It baffles me why people are so quick to get on their high horse and chastise someone for using a frequency that is there for everyones benefit.:mad:

As an industry we can only improve through our experiences, I believe everyone should have exposure to this service at least once in their career so they know it is an option should things hit the fan :eek:

Don't get me started on those trigger happy F**KHEADS ("You're on guard") who are happy to transmit on a frequency which they want to keep sterile.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

If someone doesn't have the 5 seconds to wait for a transmission to cease before they transmit their own mayday then I seriously doubt that it'll be much help anyway.

[proxypilot]

I agree with Belgium's finest, too many egos on the air

[J.O.]

I do wish that the CAT abusers of 121.5 would knock it off. It is not the place to get football scores and chat about the last layover.

For those folks from the UK who defend your local procedure that differs from the majority of the world, maybe you will remember this the next time you criticize another country that does things differently.

[Dick Deadeye]

Well, when you get a bit more time in Stella, you probably will hear one! They do happen, and when they do they are urgent.

And, when you do, with luck it won't be obliterated by people asking for baseball scores or discussing how long their CEO is going to jail for DUI!

Coming off the Westbound tracks the other day, four consecutive aircraft, all registered well West of London, all managed to transmit their initial VHF calls to Gander on 121.5 instead of 126.9. :*

Some years ago my relays, for a light aircraft gliding down over Canada, were repeatedly stepped on by these, er, professionals! :mad:

So, as some of the PPLs on here keep repeatedly pointing out, sadly to very little effect, if those ATPLs who keep moaning about all the clutter on 121.5 would realise that they are by far the worst offenders, and do something about their own conduct, things would improve dramatically.

[JW411]

Perhaps it is time for D & D to start getting tough on the garulous pillocks who are abusing 121.5 over UK airspace.

They can get an instantaneous fix on the transmission and can identify the perpetrator almost as quickly. I can understand their reluctance to personally get involved in a major ar*ehole kicking contest since they are really there to save lives but perhaps they could pass the details on to the CAA automatically?

It wouldn't take long for the clever Dicks to realise that they are going to get caught and have to answer for their sins.

[Caudillo]

It never fails to surprise me how emotive the subject of "frequency abuse" can become. I imagine though, that of course we wouldn't be the sort of people who became pilots if we didn't care so deeply about such things.

Maybe time to engage in some palliative self care and perhaps delay that incipient coronary event by calming down just a touch? Might even end up paying dividends come medical time.

There are far greater safety compromises in aviation than the continuance of "guard abuse." Besides, the nature of aviation is inherently muti-national and not every nationality is as concerened by this as others. I think we should live with it.

Could always take you mind off it by engaging in asome self-abuse..?

[Smudger]

Well done OF, an eloquent and persuasive post. You have what appears to be a mature and realistic view of what common sense and safety in aviation is all about. I am, by the way, a current "CAP" as you call us. Good luck for the future.

[Brain Potter]

I suspect that some of the 121.5 police are the same folks who also abuse 123.45 on the ocean.
As a tanker pilot I am sometimes involved in "dragging" fighters across the Atlantic using air-to-air refuelling. This is usually done in several waves, each consisting of a tanker plus 3 or 4 fighters. Each wave is seperated by 30 mins in a block of airspace, typically around FL210-230. Comms with Oceanic control are often made awkward by the fact that HF cannot be used with fighters refuelling or in very close formation. I recall one occasion when the middle of 3 waves had to divert because a fighter could not take-on fuel due to turbulence in thick cloud. His tanker could not communicate with Oceanic control as the fighters had to be tucked in tight due to the cloud. The 3rd wave was about to enter the same cloud and needed to be warned. The lead tanker had manged to refuel all his "chicks" and had to take on responsibiltiy for co-ordinating the diversion with Gander. Despite each tanker having 2 UHF boxes, the communcations got very complex and we had to resort to passing some important information from lead to No 3 on 123.45. In the middle of this whole melee, comms were interrupted by a transmission that said "Say, haven't you bozos got your own frequency for all this". This was particularly annoying as we pictured it coming from someone sat up high above the weather with not much else to do. I'm guessing that we had interrupted the latest batch of rounders scores by using the frequency to pass operationally significant information. He was ignored.
However, a big thanks to all those of you who are glad to assist with some weather or a postion report relay, whilst plowing the NAT tracks. We sometimes have to shout for attention on 121.5 and then call you to 123.45 for help. It is invariably because refuelling or close formation in bad weather is preventing use of our own HF.:ok: