Nationwide Bonds

[longflare]

I am interested in contacting people who have issues with the fact that Nationwide is bonding people for more than double the actual amount the training costs. Has anybody ever actually taken the company on about this and contested it in court? Would very much like to hear from anybody with experience of this - or if you know from anybody that has attempted to fight this. Any advice on how to deal with them?

I really think its time that this unethical practice stops and they stop making money off their own employees. Every time somebody leaves he pays the company enough money to finance the training of two more guys - no wonder they don't mind too much when you quit!:{

[MungoP]

This practise as obnoxious as it is is by no means unique to Nationwide or even SA... happens a lot... crtainly in Europe...simple answer is just not to get involved.... Another way that also works is to find a higher paid job elsewhere after a year or so and offer to pay them back at what YOU can afford...if they want t take someone to court who's already offered to pay them back they're going to look pretty damn silly and unlikely to get much sympathy from the courts.. :)

[nugpot]

NTW now has an ALPA branch. Use it!

[Insane]

A reasonable bonding period is ok, but twice as long really sucks:yuk:...It seems that they tend to intimidate people by getting you to sign all sorts of contracts containing legal jargon....Maybe a visit to a lawyer might not be a bad idea just to find out binding the bonding contract really is???:confused:

[skyvan]

Many years ago, I left an airline, and was liable for a training bond. I had fortunately been able to find out, accurately, all the costs related to that training, so when I was presented with a bill, I responded with a counter-offer, listing the total cost of my training to the company, and an appropriate amount. Obviously, the company rejected it, and so decided to sue me. They settled for my offer amount on the steps of the courts. My lawyer said that they are not allowed to make money out of you leaving, they can merely reclaim any costs incurred, so if you know the costs, you can make a realistic offer.

The above was 13 years ago, the law may have changed.

[SIC]

You see what the clever lawyers at Nationwide do is to charge you for training - and then lend you the money to pay for it. So effectively you dont have a bond but a loan. However in the same contract it says after four years you don't owe the loan anymore - so that sounds like a bond. I think they do their best to confuse and intimidate you into just accepting their way..
Fact is they charge too much for the training so I guess you could take them on on the account of grossly profitting from employing/training you??
Would love to know how - if at all - you get out of that.

[saducees]

Only advice ,If you not happy with the bond ,Dont sign it ,Once signed you are legally bound by law,and will have a hard time fighting it .
I know of 2 pilots that have lost in fighting trgn bonds.
Hang in their, boom time is comming again with most of the airlines hiring.:ugh:

[patrick_peggs]

I think it's totally ridiculous what Nationwide are doing.........but the sad thing is that if YOU don't take the bond someone else will and THAT bucks the entire system, they do it because they know that there will always be some person doing what all pilots shouldn't do....take a bond....as someone said..." a boom" is coming and they will come short, the wheel turns...I also heard that you only start paying the bond off after the first year, not sure if that is entirly correct.

[Jaboet]

Slightly off topic but:

a) What if you arrive asking for a job having obtained your rating privately, in the USA for example?

b) What sort of hours etc are guys getting into CE with? I hear of 1000hrs tt and ATPL subjects passed and some with 1000hrs tt but mostly on C172's as instructors.

c) (The combo question) Can you get into CE with 1000hrs mostly instruction, a few multi turbine hours, ATP exams and a rating obtained in the USA?

d) Most of you are thinking go ask them yourself and to you I say :p

[trubru]

No secret here - What you hear out and about the roomer network is pretty much tru! I was one of the moners untill I got an interview.....

That changes everything! The bond is one thing, but how about this:

1. After four years you owe nothing!
2. After four years you have +/- 3500hrs on medium jets!
3. After four years 2000 plus of these hours can be command!
4. After four years you can go to one of the biggest airlines in the world, just like most of the guys have already done!
5. The Fluffy is a classic I'll fly it for free anyway - IT's A SIN GETTING PAID FOR IT!

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Just to clear up an issue regarding these bonds. Most guys believe it's a 4 year bond, which is a big misconception.
The wording in the bond stipulates that it will amortise 1/36th from the day it was endorsed on the particular licence. It will not however amortise in the first 12 months from date of signing.
So in other words, if you resign and leave in the first 12 months, you owe the full amount, but as of month 13, the bond will have reduced by 13 months.
Many people have been mislead regarding this issue - and CE have scored an extra year from most pilots.
I hope they don't go and change the wording in the contracts now for future employees!!

[Fat Reggie]

I've always been against bonding. If you can't keep your people without indentured service, something is wrong. Its just another way of not paying you what you are worth or keeping their shoddy business hanging on by a thread at your expense.

[patrick_peggs]

TRUEBLUE......i can see you one of the guys that screws the entire system up by saying you'll fly the fluffy for free.......

[patrick_peggs]

FAT REGGIE I can't agree with you more.......spot on there

[trubru]

Anti-Skid Inop,

Shot for that - It is a 3 year bond indeed. It's unbelievable how many people have a misconception about this.
:O

[asianeagle]

I once had a bond with NTW, when I left they tried to charge me, I spoke to a lawyer, she told them where to get off, havent heard from them since. This was about 7 yrs ago. It costs them too much in the supreme court cos thats where it has to be done because of the amount involved. Get a good lawyer:cool:

[Deskjocky]

Get a good lawyer
As far as dealing with ol uncle vern- the best advice you can get....:D

[ST1]

Bonds are a contentius issue, it is unfortunate that Nationwide has them, but so does every airline in SA, and a few charter and contract companies, except SAA. The bottom line of it is if you don't like it, don't sign it. Once you have signed and agreed to it you are liable.
If you want to use an airline as a stepping stone why shouldn't you pay for your training, up to now you have paid for your conversions. If you stay, then it's paid for.
I agree however that overcharging is unethical. If you can get it cheaper, negotiate in your interview.

[Justinian]

TruBru, (and the rest of the idiots who think jet time is the be-all and end-all)

I recently went for an interview with one of the biggest airlines in the world (as in big - Lots of aircrfat, lots of routes, B777, 747, 340's, 330'3 - you name it!)

In my group I was the only guy that poled an aircraft barely heavy enough to be classified as a medium turboprop. On the other hand there were guys with this classic fluffy rating - none made it!

My point is, don't let this Nationwide scheme of fluffy time mislead you - don't forget about your financial backbone. What do you tell your kids one day when they have to wear crappy clothes, stay in small little house, get dropped off at a *%$#tty little school in a &*(%tty little car??? All because dad reckons the flyffy is THE :mad: ! Wake up and smell the scent of computer hardware running your PFD's dude! The classical days are over...

It's YOU that will get you into the airline, not the Fluffy!!!!!

And for the guys who think that paying for a rating is an investment into their career - show me your financial returns and growth of your "investment". What you don't realise is that VB can do that - if you quit the job before he says so. But until four years + you're just a tool for somebody else to make more money!


Good luck!

[asianeagle]

welcome to Cathay:D

[SIC]

Bond signed in 2004 - and I quote:

"In the event of said resignation or dismissal occuring after the expiration of 12 months ....then the capital sum shall be reduced by one thirty sixth for each month AFTER THE TWELFTH MONTH FROM THE DATE THE EMPLOYEE RECEIVED HIS LICENCE ENDORSEMENT ...."

Please someone explain to me how that is a three year bond?:ugh: :ugh:

Vernon got clever a while ago...

[asianeagle]

SIC-wording changed, probably after my case, I sent you a rundown.
he deserves to be challenged again.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Employment contract signed 2005:
And I quote:
"In the event of resignation or dismissal occuring after the expiration of 12(twelve) months commencing from the date of employment with the company, then the capital sum shall be reduced by one thirty sixth for each month since the employee received his licence endorsement and was a revenue producing pilot."
Some conflicting statements then between the 2 contracts.
I think you're right though SIC. I have a feeling that the terms in the training agreement take preference.
Oh S*&^%, bubble now burst!!!