Academic Qualifications

[2bbiggles]

What value does the CAA/Jaa/ Airlines place on academic quals. I have no english 'O' level and don't know if this will prevent me from getting on a course with a flight training organisation. I do have higher engineering quals but don't know if its enough? HELP!

[steven]

The classic outline that the CAA set out for academic qualifications is 5 GCSE's including English Language, Maths and a Science subject. However this does not mean that these are pre-requisites to the course. All the CAA are doing is recommending that the candidate have sufficient knowledge of these subjects to start the course. In fact many schools will ask you to work through a induction pack before the course starts.
If you have higher engineering qualifications then I would think that this wouls prove that your are not stupid and are perfectly able to do the course.
Some schools may put barriers up but if you prove to them that you are up to it then I'm sure there won't be a problem.

[2bbiggles]

Lets hope your right. Thanks for your comments. Guess i've just got to sort the money out now.

[Jimbo2k2]

Hi,

I am told that airlines like BA etc only require 5 A-C GCSEs and 2 A-levels.


Now that sounds great for me as i am interested in becoming a pilot but i would still like the opportunity to go to Uni.

Am i giving myslef a very large advantage over other applicants if i take a degree or do the airlines not mind either way?

any comments welcome,

Cheers,

Jim

[PilotOnline]

Hi Jimbo,

It really depends on what you actually study at University. At the end of the day (as far as I am aware) the fact you have a degree is simply a piece of paper saying you can complete a degree course to the required standard and is of little advantage at the interview stage for airlines.

It may help your training if you undertake a physics or maths related degree subject to get your head around some of the ATPL modules when you come to them. You can also sign up for the University Air Squadron and get some free flying in and have a great time doing it.

Not sure if this directly answers your question but good luck. One last point, I think the best advantage of doing the degree is that it gives you more experience of living (horrible, horrible cliche I know) which looks good on the application form and provides you with a good fall back if the flight training does not go according to plan. Always have a backup plan!

PilotOnline

[Jimbo2k2]

thanks alot for your advice mate, wil bear it in mind when i finally get there, im only first year college at the moment!

[AerBabe]

Of course, doing a degree in any subject also builds up other skills, like time management, and team work etc etc. Bugga, it's late, wanna write my report for me? :D


Oh, and for those considering doing a postgrad course of some sort, it's GREAT for that future airline career. You get really used to having no money, and working all hourse of the night. Coffee can be pretty grim too! ;)

[Lucifer]

I would argue that a degree in the case of BA gets you up in the crowd who ARE invited to interviews and are successful. Certainly those are the minimum qualifications, but with so many keen beans, who is to be chosen? Given a choice between someone straight out of school, and a graduate or someone who has been in a relevant industry for a while, the decision would more likely go to the latter, simply as they are better able to be the top dog at selection.

Don't worry about the degree subject, worry about the classification and where you do it.

[ZeroHoursMan]

Hi im young, naive and unqualified. i.e im 17, want to become a commercial pilot (paid), and quit my A levels earlier this year due to personal problems.
I quit the A levels (maths, physics, english lang) not because im stupid (well i must be in a way because i quit them), but had absolutely no motivation (due to personal probs possibly).

But anyone I want to know from anyone who has or is going to do an intergrated ATPL without ever doing A levels.

I myself am confident that I can learn, apply and adapt but it would naive of me to spend an awful lot of someone elses money (family/banks) on an ATPL at hopefully Jerez and suddenly realise that im lacking certain basic knowledge.

So please anyone I would love some advice.

[Send Clowns]

Why integrated? You will not get sponsorship without A-levels, nor a first job with the majors. Therefore a modular course would be a cheaper route, giving you more hours with no penalty. There is no real penalty now in any case, as all are approved.

If you have been talking to Jerez they may have been persuading you this route as I think they only do integrated. At least consider modular (I admit I work for an FTO that only does modular, but what I say is true).

[D 129]

Just an observation from someone half way through modular ground school ...

I'd say the level of understanding required in the ATPL exams is close to or at A Level science standard - certainly in theory of flight, instruments and aircraft performance - also in parts of the aircraft systems papers - hydraulics, piston engines, gas turbines etc.

Other subjects like human performance are essentially a memory test, albeit interesting !. If you are numerate the mass and balance should be very straightforward. The two comms papers should be a walk over for any well trained UK PPL pilot.

Some of my friends on the course left school before 18 (or have been out of education for a long time) and have had some struggles with what may be seen as the "academic" parts of the course.

I know that Oxford are considering either a foundation course or an entrance test or both for future modular students. Seems a good idea & their pass rate is already high.

You need to take a good look at your own experience / competance so that you will get the most out of the course that you select - For myself I found that having read all Trevor Thom's books for PPL cover to cover was a very good preparation. The thing that you will not be prepared for is the sheer volume of information that the ATPL course will require you to absorb.

Your choice of distance learning or modular course not only depends on the depth of your pockets, but also on how long you want to take with the exams and how you rate your self discipline of getting down to the studying.

Hope this helps, best of luck,

D 129

[skylord757]

I completed my ATPL without A-Levels and also employed sitting in the pointy end.

The advice above is good, if you are looking for sponsorship then there is no way a airline is going to pay for it without A-Levels at the least.

I kid you not it is very hard work and there is a lot of it and once you get your first job you find it's a career of on going exams and tests, it never stops.

[niallcooney]

Guys,

If you're motivated enough, A-Levels are irrelevant. Believe it. The ATPL exams are not easy, but they are RELEVANT. That's the key word here, and that's why many of us didn't have an interest in secondary level qualifications. Too much cr@p. If you like it it'll seem easy.

Nial

[scroggs]

You don't need A-levels to do an ATPL. You do need them to get a job with most airlines - although the need for them is inversely proportional to your age and experience (ie the younger/less experienced you are, the more you need them).

However, more importantly than that, you do need to prepare for the possibility (even probability for the moment) that you may well not end up flying for a living. Non-A-level-qualified youngsters don't tend to get offered great jobs in any field. Think very carefully before you abandon these very useful qualifications. You're very young - you have plenty of time to qualify for whatever you want to do. Don't start stocking up the regrets cupboard just yet!

[clear prop!!!]

I think niallcooney has hit the proverbial nail on the head

On my ground school course there were guys with degrees who were toiling. On the other hand there were those of us with few or no A levels who found the ATPLS a breeze (ish). Why, because they were common sense and relevant to what we wanted to do in life (I exclude air law!!!).

I am in my second flying job now at 23 no-one has asked about the grade of my A levels let alone whether I have them!!

As has been said before, it’s down to hours, where and how you trained and, most of all, perseverance.

Having said all that if you can get you’re A levels,... go for them.

If however you have spent the last couple of years wondering why they teach such rubbish and have no hope of catching up, all is not lost…but you will have to work bloody hard!!!

Good luck

[baby hormones]

hi there,

just a bit of advice. i am 17 and currently doing my ATPL (modular) at Oxfrod. I have found the course to be fine as far as understanding goes. The main problem has been lack of concentration, ( girls, beer, more girls etc the usual thing that us "KEVINS" as the guys call me and they now how they are). I would the best thing is focus from day one. anyway thats all i can say, if you have anymore questions or just wanna chat e-mail me.

Cheers

Baby hormones

[bow5]

Zerohours,

Not wishing to depress you but there is not a bank in the land that would lend money to a 17 year old without any formal education.

Back to airframes and structures :rolleyes: Great. ;)

[baby hormones]

na I havn't done my A-levels. I worked for a year after school then went to oxford. Yeah it's ok bit pissed off though. i got 74% for my instruments. i failed by one question. How are you finding the CPL I did think about doing that. But I don't think instructing is my thing. I have little patients.

P.S I must apologise for my last post. Spelling was awful(well it was late).

Cheers

Baby Hormones

[MikeM]

I did 'A' levels 12 years ago and only just managed to pass them.
Getting back to serious study years later was difficult but I have just recently managed to get good passes in all of the Phase I exams with OATS.

If I where you, I would do the exams now whilst your brain is still like a sponge instead of a sieve.

You can do your 'A' levels whilst queueing up to get an instructors job with me.

Mike.

PS You said "I have little patients". If this is the case, why do 'A' levels when you already have a degree in Dwarf Medicine
:D

[greatorex]

Zero,

I can only reiterate what has already been said; You can do the ATPL without the 'A's but you will find it virtually impossible to get employment without them - trust me, I know of at least 6 young pilots in exactly the same position at the moment and the RAF and all the majors won't touch them with a barge-pole without their 'A' Levels.

Whatever you do, go back to college, do the 'A's, THEN do the ATPL - by which time, it's predicted that the industry will be crying out for pilots and you'll land yourself a great job.

Good luck and we'll see you on the flight deck in a few years time.

[clear prop!!!]

With respect greatorex,...you are wrong.

This is from first hand experience which is I have to say indisputable! (RAF excluded, but that's another can of beans)

Having said that ...go for the A levels.

[Fly_146]

Where has all this 'you won't get a job unless you at least have A-levels' come from?

I can think of at least two pilots without a single GCSE (let alone A-levels!) to their name who both fly jets for reputable airlines.

But yes, its a good idea to get them now while its all free from the system, you have financial backing from your folks and while you're so fresh from GCSE's. The two years will fly by.

[greatorex]

Guys,

The point that I was trying to make, is that there are an awful lot of unemployed pilots out there. If a 17 year old asks - "should I do my A Levels or not?" The answer, in my mind, would have to be: "Yes, because you'll find it much easier to get a job with them."

We all know that 'A' levels do not make a good pilot but unfortunately, in this day and age the young guys coming into the industry need as many aces up their sleeves as they can manage. Sad, but that's the way things are.

Give it a few more years and it will be: Only Graduates with a Master's Degree in Aeronautical sciences need apply!!!! :eek:

[ZeroHoursMan]

Thanks for all the advice, I've taken a lot of it aboard from both sides of the story. I feel that 2 years of A level studies would be pretty hard for me due to lack of interest. I have found motivation and reason though now.
The advice on the forum has seriously pushed me towards a decision though, and I have managed to enroll myself on a Mathematics (with mechanics), full A level course at the local college, studying the fasttrack version which is done in a single year. It will be tough but my aim is to study well, and also try and study a lot of basic PPL + pre-ATPL material. I may even be able to work as well.

I have also been slightly pressured towards taking the single year A level by my family who have set aside a fairly large some of money towards my attaining a ATPL CPL/IR.

By preference I am going to enroll on the September 2003 course at Jerez nearer the time.

Maybe the hardest decision because I wouldnt normally have done the A levels.

But heres the example, i turn up to an interview for job, im as good as the next bloke, he doesnt have A levels, i do, maybe it would help, but how knows?

The only reason im doing it I suppose is for the part funding for the training.

One day I may even make it into the pointy end of a jet liner, by god someone would need to stupid to let me near all those buttons!!!!

[clear prop!!!]

Good luck my friend.

Wise move,...a year or so extra at your age is nothing and you may well find yourself in greater demand.

However the fact still remains, ... it IS possible without A levels

[ZeroHoursMan]

It makes it an interesting contrast. I guess in the end determination is the best asset.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A-levels are worth it. For some a degree these days - not. IMHO.

If you have decent GCSE and A level grades then the issue of your academic ability ceases to be.

3 years and £10,000 of debt is a big investment - you must be certain of the return to make such a decision.

Personally, I would have been better off without my degree and would have done things differently. Hindsight however is 20/20.

Good memories though!

WWW

[RowleyUK]

Scroggs,

Non-A-level-qualified youngsters don't tend to get offered great jobs in any field.

A ridiculous statement!:mad: :mad:

Ive got to do disagree my friend....sorry!

Im now 22 and have just quit a well paid job to start full time training. Ive not got A-levels, but i finished an apprenticeship in IT and ended up on a good number. I also know of people slightly older than me who are probably earning more then most pilots!
Therefore, people without A-levels do get good jobs!!!!!

ZHM,

I dont regret not doing my A-levels and im glad i did an apprenticeship, thus giving me money to fund my PPL,Hour Building and ATPL's Full time.All at 22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why not consider an apprenticeship.

Rob

[Ennie]

I would advise you do A Levels. The more you have under your belt the better.

As for not getting a flying job with an airline without them...Rubbish. As someone mentioned they know pilots without a single GCSE, I also know pilots without GCSE's, one of whom is a Captain with a major airline flying rather hefty jets.

[g_conaty]

I would like to ask a question about academic qualifications which are required to become an airline pilot.

Here's the situation:

What if someone has 5 GCSE's graded A-C but they arent in english, maths and science but they have got A-C in physiscs at A-level.

Would the airlines be reluctant to accept them because of their lack of grades at GCSE.

Also, apart from Physics and Maths, are there any other A-level subjects which airlines look for.

Thanks

[tailscrape]

I had:

3 GCSE' at A to C

And some professional qualifications.

I got lucky and my first job is on a 757. No probs at all, but I was lucky. Right place right time.

It is about personality as much as academics!

[scroggs]

Firstly: do not multiple-post your question on this (or any other) forum - you just **** people off.

Secondly: do a search using the terms 'qualifications', 'a-levels', or 'GCSEs' and you will find endless debates on this issue.

[TubularBells]

Hi,

I'm currently having a bit of difficulty deciding my best route for refreshing my knowledge in Physics and Mathematics.

I have completed my PPL and aim to start the ATPL ground school towards the end of this year, but am looking as to how I am going to refresh on knowledge I learnt over ten years ago (currently 29 Yrs old).

I was good with Mathematics, Physics and Electronics at GCSE level. I work in IT at a high level, I'm not by any means stupid (well, not that I'm aware of anyhow!) and I know I'm capable of completing the ATPL course academically. I just don't want to waste time learning Mathematics and Physics whilst trying to learn what I’m really there for! As I understand it, there’s a hell of a lot to learn on the ATPL, so I’m best to get everything else brushed up first, so I can hit the ground running.

There are 2 options available to me that I am aware of:

Option 1 - I know that Oxford are now running two courses aimed at the mature student who has forgotten all (can anyone give any feedback on this?), but it is quite a lot of money (£150 - 3 day Maths; £500 - 5 day Physics).

Option 2 - Hire a private Maths/ Physics tutor, furnishing them with my requirements for revision. Cost approximately £25 per hour.

I have so far, attained a list of subject matter which suggests I need to know the following before I start:

Maths:
Index Notation
Conversion of factions to decimals and vice versa
Pythagoras
Sin/Tan/Cos
Reciprocals
Algebra

Physics:
Basic Magnetism
Simple Electrics
Metal behaviour
Temperatures
Mass and Balance
Friction
Light
Viscosity of Liquids

Chemistry:
Chemical Compositions
Oxidation and burning
----

I would be very grateful if anyone could give me their thoughts and views on the above. Also, if anyone has any particular experiences which have helped them get to where they are now, having been in a similar position, I would also be very grateful.

Many Thanks in advance.
:D

[kido]

i finished the ATPL's last year at the age of 30.
So haven't been to school for about the same time as you.
Physics/Maths were my stronger subjects in high school and found that a lot of it came back quite quickly.
don't stress about it too much.
If u find u are having any trouble......just get a tutor, as you suggested - for an hour or 2 and i am sure that will b enough.
OR
even cheaper solution - go to the library and take out some books from there.
............its not that difficult, just the sheer volume of material to study that gets you.
Good luck;)

[147]

Hi all, I am from the UK and i need a bit of advice for my mate. My mate is 23 and he left school at 15 with no qualifications and his dream job is to become a pilot and fly for a airline company. I told him it would be hard getting a pilots job with no qualifications, But he has told me he would go to college and study and get the qualifications needed to be a pilot, But what he wants to know is what is the best subjects to study to become a pilot and at the age of 23 is he to old to be a pilot. Thanks for your help and advice it is very much appreciated.

Best Regards

[badattitude781]

Hello 147,

If you friend wants to apply for a sponsorhip then most airlines require two or three A-levels. However a lot of people (like myself) did not get sponsorships and payed for their own training with a flying school. eg. Oxford or Cabair.
The flying school's dont require A-levels. They prefer you to have some GCSE's. Maths, English and a Science such as Physics would probably help your friend in the long run.

Secondly, I dont think 23 is too old at all. I know a 747 captain who didnt start doing his ATPL training until he was 43.

It would probably be worthwhile your friend phoning a couple of the flying schools to see what they have to say. Oxford has a career's advisor. I cant remember his full name other than his nickname is Lofty!

You can contact him via this forum:

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/default.asp

Hope this helps!

[mmeteesside]

What sort of 'grades' do I need at GCSE level, I'm in Year 9 at school and about to take my options in February. Which subjects should I take to be in the best position to be a pilot.

Maybe a list like this will help:

Subject Lowest grade
English C
Maths B
.....

Hope you understand

Thanks a lot
Scott Cooper

P.S: also want to start my own airline when I get lots of money!!! (dream)

[No. 2]

mmeteesside -

Usually employers look for 5 GCSEs at grades A-C which will usually include passes in Maths and Science. This does depend from one place to the other but it's a fairly common standard. However, don't worry about that too much and try and do as well as you can at all your GCSEs because in a few years the standard may have changed - probably higher than lower!

Choose whichever subjects you enjoy most at GCSE. The ones employers are most interested in are usually the compulsory subjects anyway like Maths, English and Science. Quite often now, those few places offering sponsorships are looking for a couple of A levels too, but don't worry about that just yet.

Also give this (http://www.gapan.org/career/pilotadvice.htm ) website a look. There's a couple of links on there that'll give you more information on how to go about becoming a pilot.

Good luck:ok:

No. 2

[Obs cop]

mmeteeside,

Maths grade A,
History grade A,
Latin grade A, ......................

sorry, couldn't resist it!! Ignore that as my real advice is below for what it is worth.

One of the main things is what sort of flying you want to do, but lets deal with the simple bit first. Both the military and civil pipelines require a lot of study to achieve the coveted pilot's seat and in that respect I would suggest that Maths and Physics are the most beneficial (some would say essential as much of the information from these is the basis of the more technical exams). Employers generally, not just aviation also like to see English Language. Beyond those 3 main subjects, it really is up to you but realistically you should aim to get grade C's minimum.

I would personally suggest you aim to continue Maths and Physics through to A level, but that is not always realistic as you need to ensure any A levels sat are subjects you do well at. No point sitting the exams if you can't pass them.

Now down to the more awkward bit.

Civil flying:

There are no formal educational requirements for civil aviation, the aim being that the courses you complete in order to get your licences need a lot of study which can be completed regardless of you background qualifications. However, the groundschool element is much more demanding if you don't already have some knowledge of GCSE maths and physics. The biggest problem is that the market for jobs is very competative and a good standard of education is a definate plus, particularly if you are looking to get sponsorship.

The moral of the story thus far is work hard at school and try to ensure you get as many A to C grades as possible. Then complete further education if possible. Some believe a degree is beneficial, but my opinion is that unless it has a direct relevance to a flying career the money and time can be spent more constructively. Don's flak jacket and waits.....................

Military flying:

A different kettle of fish in that the vast majority of pilots are commissioned officers with stipulated educational requirements to enter. They are set quite low from what I remember being 5 GCSE's at A to C including Maths, Physics and English Language. However, I don't personally know of any pilots who didn't have A levels. Quite a high percentage have degrees, but they are not essential. You just have to shine that bit more when competing with graduates for the jobs!! The lowest achademic requirements are to fly through the Army Air Corps. which is the only service which has non-commissioned pilots. The catch is that you cannot join straight off the street as a non-commissioned pilot. You need to join as some other role first and then once in you can transfer over to the Army Air Corps.

The moral of this story is ....................... again to work hard at school. Don't worry though if your grades aren't as good as you were hoping for. You can still become a pilot, but it just becomes that little bit harder. Put the work in now and you will get the rewards you deserve.

Best of luck

Obs cop

PS. my highest qualification is A level Woodwork:ok:

[mmeteesside]

Thanks you two, a very informative read! It surprised me when I read that I didn't need a degree!

Thanks again
Scott Cooper

[TheHustler]

Sod the grades :cool: jut lie on your Cv! I did and it worked wonders for me at interview!

[Jinkster]

I would recomment doing Science, English, Maths, Geography and anything else you are particulary good at.

Also - out of school activities, Air Training Corps (learn lots about aircraft and get to fly for free) and Duke Edinburghs Award - all these will definately help.

All the best and good luck

Jinkster

[REvans]

mmeteesside,

I was in a simular position to you a few month's ago, Ive just started Y10. I did a bit of research before I chose my options and came up with pretty much what everyone else has said. For GCSE, they are more interested in how many A-C's youve got rather than what they are in, and the couple that they are interested in are compulsery anyway. They take a little more notice of subjects and grades on the A levels however, like Obs Cop said I think Maths & Physics are the way to go.

Have a read of this: http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm it gives you a very good idea of what airlines are looking for, you will see that 'Education' is 7th most important on the list with Team Working skills been 1st. Which means that if your determined enough you shouldnt let the odd dodgy grade put you off.

One last thing, if you can try to start flying lessons working towards your PPL, if you can put on your CV that you got a PPL at a relatively young age it will show both flying skills and that youve always wanted to be a pilot from a young age.


We will get there someday, all the best. :ok:

[Obs cop]

Jinkster has a very valid point.

I did ATC, Duke of Edinburgh, martial arts and had a part time job. Whilst it kept me very busy, it certainly gave me plenty to talk about when I had my Admiralty Interview Board for the Royal Navy (which I managed to pass first time at 18 years old).

Don't underestimate the value of extra-curricular activities, but just make sure they do not detract from your mainstream studies!

Obs cop

[scroggs]

Obs Cop, your facts re military pilots' qualifications are wrong, at least for the Navy and RAF. For these you will need at least two A-levels, as well as the five GCSE's, which must include Maths and English, at grade C or higher. A degree is not yet required, but may well be before long.

I'm not so familiar with Army requirements, but I'm sure their website will provide the latest info. As Army pilots need not be commissioned (and may spend a very short part of their career in aviation), I would expect the minimum qualifications to be lower.

Scroggs

RAF Careers website - pilot (http://www.rafcareers.com/jobs/job_files/jobfile_pilot.cfm)

[Obs cop]

Scroggs,

Thanks, you didn't need A Levels when I joined the Navy as an aircrew officer although most had them anyway. My apologies, I stand corrected.:ok:

Obs cop

[pietz]

Could anyone please tell me whether there are any hard and fast requirements (qualifications other than flight experience/ratings/licences etc) for pilots seeking jobs with airlines?
I have noticed that with a number of airlines which offer sponsorship schemes, you require certain academic qualifications. I am not able to apply to these schemes as I don't quite meet the requirements, (by 1/2 an A level) although I am now funding my training myself inorder to reach fATPL.
Would I then have trouble getting a job due to the academic qualifications, although I would meet the licence etc. requirements?

Any help and advice would be greatly received!:confused:

[Pilot Pete]

It is on a sliding scale really, certainly here in the UK. If you apply for sponsorship you will need at least A levels and probably a degree because the competition is so stiff. If you pay for your own training and are a little older, you can make up for a lack in academic qualifications by way of experience. Perhaps you have worked in a career and built up a track record for several years and now have good teamwork, management, leadership and other 'life' skills which a young academic may not have gained yet. This counts for a lot in the eyes of the airline recruiters, as does flying experience, so the more hours you have and the larger the aircraft you have flown, coupled with your 'life' experience, the less you need to focus on any academic failings earlier in life.

Don't get me wrong though, you still need to be able to handle basic Maths and English as some airlines will test you on these, but I wouldn't worry too much as many degree students are failing these airline tests....................do make sure your basics are good no matter what level of qualification you hold.

Hope this helps

PP

ps. I didn't get any A levels or degree and I've done alright.

[p.savage]

I agree with Pilot Pete. It's important that you have a good understanding, perhaps to GCSE standard of Maths, English and the Sciences. This will always be helpful.

Just to add another point to Pilot Pete's, if you are a young pilot qualified at 20 to 23 for example, airlines will look at this objectively. ie. you must have been doing something right!

Paul Savage

[Daniel_109]

Can anyone give me the actual school qualifications needed to become a commercial pilot in ireland??
Cheers,
Danny:ok:

[flight_height]

Hi,
I have been seriously considering training to become a pilot in recent years, do airlines require any minimum educational qualifications (i.e. 5 GCSE minimum and A-Levels)? or do they only look for the relevant flying licenses and experience?
Thanks a lot

[YYZ]

They only look at the qualifications if you were going through there sponsorship scheme, as this is very unlikely these days & you will probably be self funded it will not be a problem.

People who pay for themselves have allot of motivation therefore past educational experiences do not count, pass all the exams & tests required for employment & you’re as attractive as the next candidate.
YYZ

[flight_height]

Yes, I thought as much.
Thanks a lot for the feedback, much appreciated.

[fhchiang]

hello..

i planning to do flight training in Australia...


now i see some schools only require a Year 11( 'O' Levels)

i'm taking my O levels at the end of this year...

i'm thinking whether i should take A-levels first,

or go straight to training with 'O' levels?

[Andy_20]

How important are acedemic qualifications? When going for a job what would the airline company be looking for mostly; acemdemic qualifications or flying experience?

Regards...

[AIRWAY]

I believe they would first look at your flying experience then qualifications... You never know, some airlines are not concern too much about qualifications, some are.

[j_davey]

im hoping that they do acount for something, i`d like to get some kinda use out of my degree.....

[Andy_20]

Well the thing is.... i have 5 gcses A-C, an NVQ L3 in Aeronautical engineering and a btec in Aeronautical engineering, just kinda worried that i dont have full alevels just equivalents!

Think id have a problem?

[VFE]

I only have GCSE's.

Plenty of pilots out there with similar but there are many more who are over qualified with degree's.

VFE.

[AIRWAY]

I also have GCSE's plus an NVQ and now doing a diploma. I had to make a decision so i decided to go half way and get a Diploma instead of a degree, the lenght of study is lower than a degree and not has hard, so i'm able to combine the study and flying together.

Like VFE has stated, plenty of pilots out there with basic qualifications and plenty with degrees, some airlines will look at you and say that you are over qualified, some will look at you and say that you are not qualified enough, and others will say great you a meet our requirements.

But the most ridiculous story i heard up to date was not regarding the academic experience, but a recruiter of a certain airline telling someone: "Oh your over qualified for this flying postion" ( in terms of flying hours ) :mad: :*

No pleasing no one in this industry, so you just have to keep trying.

[Andy_20]

Yeah thanks guys, thats kinda stopped me worrying so much about it.

Regards...

[APRIANA]

I've left school with the normal Standard Grades, so hopefully they just look at my flying record!

I'm going to check with a few pilots at the club to see what type of qualifications they had.

[Unwell_Raptor]

So far, in a thread about academic qualifications, there are approximately seven spelling errors and nineteen serious errors of punctuation and grammar in just eight posts.

I know it isn't done to quibble about spelling on the Internet, but if you want to be taken seriously you will have to do better than the above.

[Biscuit]

Unwell_Raptor, you need to get out more chap !!
;)

[Unwell_Raptor]

Oh I do, dear boy, I do.

My point stands - aspiring professionals need to present themselves professionally, and spelling and grammar that would disgrace a 12 year old will not impress potential employers.

I am sure that I am not the only one to spot the irony of a thread about 'acedemic' (sic) qualifications being illiterate.

[High Wing Drifter]

My point stands - aspiring professionals need to present themselves professionally, and spelling and grammar that would disgrace a 12 year old will not impress potential employers.
I think should read:
My point stands; aspiring professionals need to present themselves professionally. Spelling and grammar, that would disgrace a twelve year old, will not impress potential employers.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In the real world I am a spelling and grammar Nazi. In cyberspace (how 90's is that sounding) I'm quite sloppy. Its one of the freedoms of the medium. Nobody is ever going to treat a CV and covering letter in the same way they approach a posting on an anon bulletin board.

Nevertheless, Raptor makes a valid point. I used to work as a recruitment officer hiring workers, apprentices and undergraduate sponsorship applicants. You really would be staggered by the dogs breakfast of written communication that I would receive. It may have been a little harsh but I would simply bin the worst examples.

MS Word Grammar and Spellcheck are Not Enough! Get someone older and wiser to checkl important letters and CV's for you before you send them to potential employers. Prior to the 70's schools actually taught grammar. Then I believe it became unfashionable. I know that I was able to get an A-level English Grade 'A' in 1992 with an atrociously basic grasp of grammatical structure and rules.

"Eats, Shoots and Leaves" should be compulsory reading for anyone under the age of 35 who underwent a State education....

Cheers

WWW

[BEagle]

I understand that certain airlines now make applicants write a short essay with pen and paper when attending for interview. Without the 'benefit' of a spell-checker....

'Yoofspeak' or 'txtmsg' acronymish are totally unacceptable. Give up listening to trash broadcasting and concentrate on correct use of English would be my recommendations.

"Nah, mate. 'Sdoin' me 'ed in, this" will not cut the mustard these days! Neither is the ubiquitous yoof word "Cool" an acceptable interjection!

[Bear 555]

Morning all,

Two points generally following the thread, if I may.

1. Qualifications. I have come across several situations over the past few years where a Degree is 'required' for a number of positions in various companies. What is often not written is that relevant experience or other qualifications will be usually be considered. Typically this is benefits 'mature' candidates (such as myself) much more than our young friends joining the workforce.

As one who sits on various recruitment processes I always try and balance four things :-

formal qualifications, relevant qualifications, life experience and relevant experience.

2. I completely agree that standards of spelling and grammar from younger applicants can be shocking. My own motley collection of teenagers (15 & 16) manage to give me stress attacks when I look over anything they have written by hand for school or college.

Now they are close to considering applications for further education or even employment I am sad to reflect that I would reject instantly any application form which arrived for my attention looking like it had been completed by a 4 year old with a Crayola complex.

The solution here is to work at handwriting - painful I know. Even handwriting letters or a structured diary entry can help.

Ok, rant over - I hope this helps someone out there.

regards,

Bear 555

[Sensible]

The three overridingly most important factors for securing a job are presentation, presentation and presentation.

Presentation: A good well prepared clearly written application free of grammatical and spelling errors. (Followed up by the ability to actually write and spell properly at the interview) An application form which looks like a demented spider has crawled through ink then across the form just won't do! Flying is a precise science and a prospective employer is easily going to be persuaded to look at another's application if yours isn't precisely set out. I have personally discarded application forms submitted to me purely on the basis that they are too difficult to read!

Presentation: Clear verbal communication. The people doing the selections will probably be life experienced people like B Eagle who cringe at “Yeh Right" and "Cool" interjections (fraud I'm in that category too). The selectors will undoubtedly looking for somebody who fills the image that the company wants to promote to its customers.

Presentation: Smart clothing, it’s not a fashion parade, forget the hair gel and tinted glasses.

Now back to qualifications, in my view "suitable" qualifications are very important but after that I'm really not sure that extra qualifications are either a particular advantage or disadvantage. Certainly I've heard some candidates claim that they were "over qualified" for the job as a face saving exercise having failed to secure the job against less qualified competition

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I don't think handwriting is a fair skill to be assessed.

Whereas many people over 30 may have neat clear handwriting and will have been taught it; many under 30 will not. Simply they have completed the bulk of their studies using keyboards for the written word.

Their typing skills are likely to be far superior to the older codgers and as nearly all prose is now typed in the workplace; this is the more important skill.

Additonally - girls have neat handwriting and they can't reverse park...

Cheers

WWW

[BEagle]

WWW - if you have to write up a tech snag, it's helpful to the maintenance androids if they can actually read the entry!

...and girls can't reverse park because ever since they were teenagers, men have been giving them inconsistent dimensional assessment guidance; e.g. "That is 7 inches" whereas in reality it's probably closer to 4.

I mean, of course, the gap between the tyres and the kerb... :E

[pipertommy]

How would qualifications gained later in life(night school)be looked on by recruitment boards.I am working my way through gcse`s in college,would this increase my chances?

[VFE]

Not sure many B737's need reverse parking by the FO these days but I know what ya mean....... ;)

As for the advice given by Sensible:

Pretty good to my eyes, if a little textbook. The information in my possession suggests that some part of your background that sticks out from the crowd would be a good thing at interview. Whether or not application form sifters have the nowse to distinguish this in the written application form is a matter of some conjecture. Times are however changing and BEagles day is drawing to a close and WWW's is breaking cloud.....

If you can demonstrate a propensity for being somehow inventive (lets not go silly and get our band demo's out from school!) and show you are financially astute with evidence of having commercial financial responsibility in your past you're begining to tick the more important boxes than correct grammar although correct grammar and speeling is definately important in the early stages.

VFE.

[Edited to insert intentional grammatical errors to divert attention away from the more important content]

[Andy_20]

This is a multimedia notice board for people to post questions and answers! It is not a spelling or grammar test! Did everyone get a dictionary for christmas this year or something?
How many times does everyone check their spelling when typing a question, not very many. Although i do understand that spelling and grammar would mean something when applying to a company but this is supposed to be quite a relaxed afair.
Posting a question or replying on a web site forum however does not necessarily determine how they write in real life.
Some people need to get a life and get out more i think!

[croce]

hello every one,

at the moment im studying my atpl subjects at TAFE like collage in Perth Western Australia, and i want to go to university, just asking if any body could give me some advice on what sort of degrees i could do that would be good for professional airline entry and careers. thanks guys

[croce]

hello, just wondering about the qualifications needed in the way of degrees for airline careers thanks if anyone has any helpful information that would be great

[Curvature]

Hi there Croce,

In my experience, whether you have a University degree, or not, it does not seem currently to be a pre-requisite for an airline career with Australian or Asian carriers. I can't speak for European or American ones.

I spent three years gaining a Bachelor of Science in Aviation, and then a further 1.5 years gaining a Masters degree in Finance. I have found that although these are taken into consideration when looking for work as a pilot they are in no way guarantees of a job over someone who has chosen not to pursue a University degree.

From a purely non-aviation focus, a great time can be had at University and it is a good place to meet like-minded people, as well as the positive social aspects.

I don't know your age, but if you have time in your favour, a University degree can look good on your resume, and may provide a useful back-up when times are rough in the aviation industry.

Cheers

Curvature

[ikea]

getting a degree is always wise. I have a degree (quite a good one, from a leading Uni), but I do not expect this to do much for me in the way of landing an airline job.

Maybe, if I do ever get to work for an airline, hopefully, as far as promotions go, if you take two equally experienced pilots, one with, and one without a degree, maybe the pilot with a degree will have a better chance.

I personally did a degree, as I would like to think that if the worse should happen, an I lose my medical/job, then I have more career options other than flipping burgers, or selling duvet covers in ikea!!

But everyone is different. The descision of whether or not to go to university is one which takes a lot of thinking and planning. If you have to pay for fees, and are living away from home, think about that too. This money could be spent on your flying licences.

I for one ,got free tuition and stayed athome, so I actually saved my student loan, which is paying for my basic trtaining this summer.

[scroggs]

ikea be careful answering queries from parts of the world you're not intimately familiar with. I'm sure your advice is quite correct for a UK-based wannabe, but our friend croce is in Australia. Even after several years handing out advice here, I do not feel qualified to offer advice on something as specific as education to someone so far from my own experience. While your observations may be of interest to croce, do you know what Australian or Asian airlines require? Let those who know the Australian system answer the question.

Scroggs

[arpansingla]

Hello fellow Ppruners!

I am currently 16 and will be 17 on the 27th November. I will shortly receive the results for my GSCE examinations. Flying commercially is something i definately want do without a doubt, i have had a trial lesson and this confirmed my wish to fulfil my dream.

I am thinking about going onto an integrated flight training scheme whereby they only require you to be 17 years of age and have had 5 GCSE passes (C or above) preferably in maths and physics. Without tempting fate too much i think i can safely say i will have fulfilled these requirements by November 27th 2005.

If i were to be succesful in obtaning a class one medical and passing their selection do you think it would be wise to go onto the course without having done any a levels? How important is having done a levels? Are they a requirement for employment with airlines and also do they help you with the atpl theory work?

I know many of you will talk about the issues of maturity but i feel i am a mature person for my age and will continue to develop this if i were to participate in the course.

The reason why i am keen to skip a levels is because i want to start flying commercially as soon as possible and am not sure if a levels would be an unnecessary waste of 2 years.

Your views will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Arpan

[metar]

I think that A-levels certainly wouldn't harm your ability to take in the ATPL ground school though...

[Slopey]

Although A levels may not be necessary, bear in mind that if anything should happen which prevents you from flying commercially, or your'e not able to find a job as a pilot, A levels would almost certainly be advantageous if you want to choose a different career.

2 years of A levels would make you more employable in any future career, allow you to persue a university education if for some reason you don't end up flying (be it financial/medical or another reason) and you could always use those 2 years to gain a PPL before going onto a commercial course.

Although you're dead set on avaiation at the moment situations can change and not taking any A levels would leave you in a worse position.

Just something to think about. Also, in 2 years time you'd be older, wiser and probably more responsible about the course and the financial commitment you're about to make.

[VFE]

Not sure that A-Levels are particularly sought after by the majority of airlines once you are qualified however some of the larger airlines may be put off if you lack A-Levels and experience. At the end of the day anything that gives you an advantage over others is a bonus and A-Levels certainly wouldn't go amiss on your flying CV.

As for the ATPL theory I'm not so sure that A-Levels would be much benefit really. The standard of learning required to pass is GCSE A-C level. I only have GCSE's and although it was difficult at first to grasp some of the ATPL calculations I didn't really have too many problems. The main concern in ATPL theory is remembering the bulk of information.


If the aviation career didn't work out for whatever reason (medical or otherwise) I'm not too sure that A-Levels alone are going to put you much further ahead unless you have a degree under your belt. Therefore, if you're going to study for another two years you would probably be wise to extend to university afterwards. Bet you like the idea of that eh? ;)

VFE.

[scroggs]

A-levels are not required of qualified pilots by airlines, but sometimes they are required of candidates for self-sponsored airline training schemes. If you are contemplating this route (CTC and similar), you should check the websites of the airlines and training providers concerned - though, on re-reading your post, I see you may have already done that.

In any case, recruitment is a competitive process, and, where experience is lacking, acadmic qualifications are one of the few tools at your disposal to distinguish yourself from your competitors. That said, there is absolutely no need to have A-levels at all; you certainly won't need them in preparation for ATPL exams! If you do decide to take A-levels, don't worry overmuch about the subjects. There is no need to take Maths and Physics (or any other science) simply because you are interested in aviation. Instead, take subjects that interest you and in which you are likely to give your best effort - and if that's Maths and Physics, great. If it's Media Studies and Philosophy, that's also great - as long as the results are good.

Scroggs

[arpansingla]

Thank you for all your comments thus far. Anyone have any more opinions/views?

[G SXTY]

I’d do the A levels if I were you.

As Scroggs said, you need something to make your CV stand out - if you’ve got no work experience to talk about, it will have to be qualifications. The more the merrier!

I’d also recommend doing them as a ‘plan B’ in case you ever lose your medical. It happens more than you might think, and it would be nice to have some bits of paper to fall back on in case you have to apply for ‘normal’ jobs.

(I found A level physics quite useful for the ATPLs by the way).

[hingey]

I am about to start my second year of A levels and am awaiting results of my 1st year (probably D's and C's, nothing special). I will certainly start my A2's but if the opportunity arises ie. I get a place on Air Atlantique, or my parents hand over the family fortune I will leave college to start flying. I have a PPL already, so it might be a wise idea for you to do that (if possible) at the same time as doing your AS's. It’s hard work combining the 2 but certainly worth it if you’re dead set on flying.

h

[Bealzebub]

If as reported the pass rate for A level examination entrants is in the order of 97% why wouldn't most employers expect a candidate to have such a qualification as a matter of course ?

It has not always been the case in the past, but I would expect to see it become more of a minimum educational requirement for employment in the future.

In a market that is awash with low hour licence holders, you would be selling yourself against others with such minimum qualifications.....wouldn't you ?? ;)

[VFE]

Employers really aren't interested in what school qualifications you have when they recieve your flying CV. The first thing they look is your hours. If these are not high enough for their 'requirements' your CV is filed in the B1N ASAP and if you're lucky a PFO mailed out. You are wasting their time listing all your GCSE, A-Level, BTEC's etc on your flying CV so in view of this you are not at a disadvantage at the application stage at all because I for one do not list acedemic quals on my flying CV.

If you speak to the recruiters they will tell you this.

VFE

[Bealzebub]

Yes VFE but your flying experience is only the "first thing" they look at. If your experience meets their requirements it is not the only thing they look at. I can guarantee that.

If a CV has no educational qualifications listed, I would would assume the applicant has either omitted them which would seem strange, or has none. The CV would then be dealt with on that basis. There are normally a lot of them to read.

"Recruiters" will tell you what they want to tell you, in much the same way that applicants will hear what they want to hear.

[VFE]

Fair point Bealzebub and you are clearly better placed to know owing to your position so thanks for your thoughts. One of my concerns when first compiling my flying CV was the danger of putting too much in and it being dismissed on the basis of it being too lengthy to bother with.

One of those 'How To Become A Pilot....' manuals I purchased about four years ago boldly stated that the key to your CV was to remember the golden rule: Keep it on one page! They also laid out a plan for the presentation and acedemic quals didn't feature - seeing as I still do not have that elusive first job perhaps they were talking out their pipe....

Do you agree with the one page idea (including acedemic quals) or is the one page idea a daft one?

Thanks again,

VFE.

[ex_matelot]

Is anybody or does anybody know of any airline pilots who are NOT educationally qualified A-level and above?

Is it possible to become an atp if not academically qualified as such,or is it possible but unlikely employment prospects?

Cheers

[Farmer 1]

If you include ATPL(H), then yes, me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've met all sorts of pilots without post-16 academic qualifications. Without a doubt however they were all quite bright enough that they *could* have done so.

G

[CPL_Ace]

I think your biggest problem might arise with selection to any of the integrated courses at the approved schools. Although they are happy to take your money so you can get around this.

The selections tend to have apptitude tests which as pointed out will prove that you have the capacity to learn and that you're more intelligent than any piece of paper might suggest.

ATPL studies I think require a certain ability to learn, particularly maths and Physics although a base knowledge wouldn't be required as most of the physics is explained with an orientation to what you need to know to be a pilot. It's all close to GCSE level (as they were when I took them in the early 90's)

[Piltdown Man]

I'm your man. I've got a few CSE's and a piss-poor OND in Business Studies to my name. However, I did find that when you are self-sponsoring, your cash speaks louder than your educational qualifications.

[jayteeto]

4 O levels and ATPL A and H. Qualifications make selection easier but not impossible.

[Kanu]

Most airlines are more interested in your results in the theory exams and a 1st time IR pass also helps I'm told...

If it’s any use, I have zero academic qualifications and have 5 exams remaining on the ATPL’s. So far my average is mid 90’s, so even a thicko like me can do it
:O

[beachbum88]

My names Tom, im inr at 6th form, i already have my ppl and am definatly going to apply to a flight school such as CTC or Oxford after i finish my A leves! The problem i have is that me and maths dont get on that well, im really good at physics but i suck at maths! it just doesnt make sense to me and i cant see the relavance of pretty much every topic i cover, in relation to what i want to do with my career. it says its prefered that you have maths at Alevel as a qualification but iv met countless pilots who havent ever done math beyond GCSE! so my question is to all profesional pilot out there do i really need Alevel maths? because i dont get one with it and can barely do it and from what iv seen of the maths involved in flying for a living i could aready do that with what i know! so i dont really want to waste any more of time doing maths if i dont have to!
any and all help and advice will be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Tom

[link4]

Hi Tom

Im also in my last year of college, im 18 and also hold a PPL (a lot of us around these days!)

Its by no means perequisite to do Maths A Level, i do Physics as A level though as i like it, however do the subjects u enjoy! If all goes to plan i should be going to Oxford this summer on the APP, might see you there!

PM me if you have anymore questions

Good luck :ok:

[beachbum88]

thanks! yeh mayb see you there but im going to try CTC first as they are just down the road from me! ok well if anyone has anything else to add id appreciate it! thanks
Tom

[VFE]

I don't know what the airlines require re:A-Levels for sponsorship these days but if you're self sponsoring then don't worry - GCSE level maths is more than enough.

VFE.

[wire12]

Hello,

Would any be able to give me some very important advice. My parents are after putting up the deedes to their house as security to fund my pilot training. I'm very worriered that if I get half way through the course and I am not able to pass the exams, the house will be taking of them because they would not be able to make the payments for five years.

Could you tell me with your own experience what is an just under academically average person's chance of getting the commercially licence please.

[scruggs]

There are plenty of threads that cover this topic. Try a quick forum search. However, as a rule of thumb, the ATPL exams are compared by many to GCSE's in terms of difficulty. In fact, someone here recently compared passing the ATPL exams to passing 14 GCSE's rather than equating the ATPL's to a degree. I've not sat them personally, so I guess there are many more people here more qualified to comment.


As we don’t know anything about you or your academic ability (just under is a bit vague), it’s difficult to say – so I won’t comment there. All I’ll say is, I hope you succeed – for your parents’ sake as much as your own. It’s a wonderful gesture what your parents have made. Do lots of research and find out as much as you can about the training. Maybe visit a few schools.

Good luck.
S.

[G SXTY]

the ATPL exams are compared by many to GCSE's in terms of difficulty. In fact, someone here recently compared passing the ATPL exams to passing 14 GCSE's rather than equating the ATPL's to a degree.

I’d be very careful about equating the ATPL written exams to GCSEs. Having done both, I’d say the workload is much closer to degree level than GCSEs. And the commitment required to pass them is higher than either GCSEs or a degree – think of trying to complete a degree in a year, while working full time. I’d suggest that the only way they equate to GCSEs is in the academic ability required to pass them.

[Grass strip basher]

I have to say my own experience of the ATPLs is that in terms of difficulty they are nothing like as difficult as doing a "proper" degree..... I did an engineering degree that was many times more complex in terms of the level of understanding required than the ATPL exams.... and certainly for my degree there wasn't a question bank in the public domain containing 60-70% of the questions I was likely to face.

I think the 14 GCSE analogy is probably nearer the truth from my own experience.... (without the coursework of course :E )... perhaps even less challenging because lets face it the 2 comms exams are not exactly rocket science.

Its really just about volume... nothing too technically difficult if you can get a very basic grip of physics/maths. Like I say it is only my own experience but I managed to get through the ATPLs in 12 months whilst working 60-70 hours per week in a full time job so even the volume side can be done.
Another thing I would point to with the ATPLs is that many many people now seem to be getting through with averages in the 90s for all 14 exams (if the folks I talk to are telling the truth!).... I don't know any other professional exams in which people so regularly get such a high average mark.

Having recently been through the exam process it certainly was not as tough as some people had led me to believe..... good on you though for asking the question, its a big risk.... personally I would never let my parents put their house on the line to fund flying training... many old hands on here spend a lot of time and effort telling wanabees how fickle this industry can be.... why not reduce the risk, get a job and do the exams whilst working if you are that worried about it??

[Re-Heat]

Would any be able to give me some very important advice. My parents are after putting up the deedes to their house as security to fund my pilot training. I'm very worriered that if I get half way through the course and I am not able to pass the exams, the house will be taking of them because they would not be able to make the payments for five years.
One word. Don't.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I agree with Re-Heat. If your folks are risking losing their home over your training you're putting yourself under a hell of a lot of pressure. There is enough pressure involved in getting your fATPL as it is without that sort of worry.

Work full time and save like mad, borrow from a bank what you can, apply to the likes of CTC who will help you arrange a loan, anything but what your parents are suggesting in my opinion. A flying job ain't worth seeing your family put out on the street mate.

Good Luck

[Effee]

I'm in the exact same situation. Don't know if I should pursue my training yet or not.

[Philpaz]

This is one for the more senior pilots that perhaps have an input when CV's fly over desks.
I have NO basic GCSE's as i was a bit of a prat in my youth and wanted to work. I managed to talk my way in to a job as an aprentice mechanic and then joined the Army where i spent 10 years as a technician. I'm now a design engineer with EADS (Airbus parent company, i dont have anything to do with that though!) and have numerous qualifications in my field.
So thats me, but back to my question, will i be overlooked because i have no basic quals?
OAT have said they would be happy to accept me on experience but as a business i would expect that, i'm not so sure an airline would be so forgiving.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Phil

[scroggs]

At your advanced age, and with work experience behind you, your academic qualifications (or lack of them) are largely irrelevant.

Scroggs

[Philpaz]

Cheers Scroggs, was actually aiming that question at you. Thanks a lot.
Would i be expected to put my Career quals on an Airline CV or just work exp and flying Exp?

Phil

[scroggs]

I would perhaps put the highest qualification you have on there, and allude to 'supporting qualifications'. An aviation CV (we're crossing back to your original topic here!) does not require inventive descriptions of how good you are or have been; it is simply a statement of directly-relevant experience.

Even brand-new baby pilots straight out of school rarely need to mention much about academic qualifications - though they might as well, as they have little else to talk about - unless they are applying for one of the various pay-it-yourself 'sponsorship' schemes. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that many airlines now use application forms rather than CVs, where you may well have an opportunity to note down non-academic quals.

Scroggs

[Ropey Pilot]

I doubt the exams are equivalent to 14 GCSE's - the two comms exams took approx 2 and a half minutes each to sit (so 5 mins in total for 2 exams - but then I heard GCSEs were getting easier). With the best will in the world the exams can be done part time in less than a year. A degree is 3 years full time and GSCEs 2 years full time. They do require time, patience and study but 'ballpark' comparisons will always be contentious.

If you struggle you will assume a hefty (possibly degree) equivalent; if you didn't you will find an easier comparison. Some science A levels are probably harder than some degrees:}

One of the guys on my crammer course was telling everyone how an ATPL was considered equivalent to a degree. He was on his final attempt in several subjects but was still having problems transposing simple formulas. (eg if speed = distance/time how do you find time if you are given speed and distance). I really hope he made it, but the fact he found it difficult didn't make it any closer to a degree.

I used an excellent book called "Ace the technical pilot interview" or similar to brush up on what I had done in the exams pre-airline interview. I would suggest those who are worried to have a quick browse through it and see if they could ever see themselves learning it (bearing in mind it is not a teaching course, simply an aide memoire). It gives a hint as to what sort of level of knowedge is required.

As to what qualifications employers want - this thread could go on forever but my own tuppenceworth is than their importance diminishes with other experience.

If you are 21 with 3 GCSEs and a shelf stacking career you may find other candidates take your place.

If you are 21 with 3 GCSEs and have led a round the world expedition including organising the support team and getting major corporate sposorship - then you probably shouldn't worry too much.

Everyone applying for the job will have the same license. Say there are 300 of you - what have you got that they haven't; and can you put it in a CV so that when 10 of you are invited to interview, you are one of them. Academic quals (for the younger applicant) are a useful filter at that stage.

Some larger companies won't look at you regardless. If they have to filter10,000 applicants who do have their academic criteria why would they even entertain those who don't.

There are plenty of you there who have cited cases of people without A-levels (or equivalent) getting a job. I know someone who smoked 40 a day for most of his life and lived to be 90. It doesn't mean that smoking is the smartest thing to do for a long life though - many more have died of lung cancer in their 50s.

As to them taking up too much space on your CV - I could take up an entire side of A4 if I wanted to; it doesn't mean you have to though. 14 GSCEs can be listed as

"14 GCSEs - Grades A-C: Including Mathematics and Physics"

or similar. Many companies have an application form with spaces for that sort of thing anyway.

Given the costs involved, however, I would be slightly wary if you cannot stick an academic course because you have no motivation but assume 12 months of maths and physics based (amongst other stuff) ATPL exams will hold your attention any more. I think most on this thread will agree that A levels are beneficial to getting a job but not necessary - if that benefit isn't motivational enough consider:

Trigonometry doesn't get hugely more interesting because there is a picture of an aeroplane at one of the corners on the blackboard.

Cl=1/2 x rho x v (squared) x s isn't ant less algebraic because Cl is the coefficient of lift

And the endless pages of drivel about conventions in Warsaw aren't enthralling because they refer to air law.

[mattkcraven]

isnt that

L / (1/2 x rho x V (squared) x S) = Cl

;)

[Ropey Pilot]

:O :O :O

It was a while ago...

[Mikehotel152]

I'm not sure how to put this tactfully, so I won't...

How anyone can suggest that a GCSE can be comparable with A-Levels, a Degree or ATPLs is beyond me. :rolleyes:

GCSEs were easy when I did them, probably easier now, and the jump between GCSEs and A-Levels is known to be larger than the jump from A-Levels and a Degree. Do you even need to 'know' anything to pass a GCSE?!

Gee, I'm amazed at this discussion, I thought ATPL exams were supposed to be hard! If they're the same as GCSEs I'll pass easily!!!:p

BUT I don't believe that's the case at all. IT flies in the face of logic and common-sense. In fact, despite having a Degree and being a qualified solicitor I don't mind admitting I'll have to work my arse off to get my ATPLs!:(

[tiggermoth]

I was just wondering what was the official line on the equivalence of the ATPL theory to:

NVQ
A-Levels
HNC/HNDClearly it's not degree or above as there is no element of research in it.

[Ropey Pilot]

There is no official line - but a quick search will show that different people consider it to be equal to any of the above.

Personally, in terms of difficulty I don't think anything is harder than a science O level (and since we are constantly assured that GCSEs are not getting easier then the same stands for that).

There is a lot of volume to learn in things like Air Law - but that is nearly all simply memorising stuff.

All the exams can be done from start to finish in less than a year whilst holding down a full time job - to give you an idea of the amount of study.
So in terms of difficulty andquantity I would say that all the exams together are about the same as a couple of O levels.

There will be many differing opinions to follow.....:rolleyes:

If your question is as to where to list it on CVs (BTECs in the A-level box or whatever), then aviation employers know what it is and non-aviation employers probably won't care a jot.

[bjkeates]

I can honestly say that the although the ATPLs have some hard bits, nothing I have come across comes close to anything I did at my A-levels, never mind my degree. There's just a lot more of it.

[Ropey Pilot]

Some people here did O levels, so I can only assume GCSEs are equivalent; but then I didn't find a huge jump to A-level so maybe I am wrong.:\

And to follow your last post - the ATPLs aren't that hard (depending on your background) - and with your background I am sure that you will fly through them with ease.

YOur previous educational background is the kicker here (and why people keep saying it will help you get through). If you strugged/dropped out of GCSE physics you will probably struggle with things like PoF. If you didn't, you probably won't.

(And as I proved in my last post - you obviously don't need to 'know' much to pass an ATPL; just remember it for a few weeks:O )

[Whirlygig]

in terms of difficulty I don't think anything is harder than a science O level

Define "harder"!!!

The volume of stuff for ATPL is vast - personally I found my degree in Theoretical Physics easier than ATPL exams since memorising useless shyte is not my forte whereas Maths and Science is!

Cheers

Whirls

[Mikehotel152]

Oh, believe me, GCSEs are easier than O-Levels!

Surely you don't believe that teachers are better and students more hard-working these days, hence the fact that an 'A' at GCSE is common-place whereas in my day it was the exception!

I had no problem with GCSE Maths or Physics but I wouldn't say I was good at either!

[planecrazy.eu]

I have done my GCSE's, A-Levels, BTECS, HNC & D and now i am on my Degree and can say that:

ATPLS have to be in the middle of GCSE and A-Levels.

So in our new crazy education system, i think that would be BTEC "Intermediate, or G/NVQ Intermediate.

They are long winded, and require some technical elements, they are multiple choice and they are not easy, but they cant be too hard as most score above 80% which would be a "A" at A-Level or A* at GCSE.

Degrees and the likes are all about theory, you learn how things are came about, you learn the whys and hows. ATPLS you get given the answers in your revision, you just have to remember them for the exam.

If you look at other Multi choice exams, you wouldnt consider linking them to qualifications:

- Driving Theory
- Citizenship Exam

[Whirlygig]

On that basis Airbus38, my ten O Levels (sat over 25 years ago) must be like having ten A Levels now!!!

It's certainly true about the standards. When I was doing A Levels, the standard "offer" from an Oxbridge College would be 3 'A's at A Level. Only the seriously bright (and swotty) children could manage 4 A Levels. Now, 5 or 6 A Levels is reasonably common and Oxbridge now require 5 'A's at A Level.

And I don't think Oxford or Cambridge have got harder to get into!!

I did read somewhere that if you wanted to use your ATPL exams passes as a qualification to go on to higher education (i.e. a degree), that the OU would consider the qualification to be on an academic par with first year degree thereby exempting you a year if you wanted to do a relevant degree to aviation.

If you do need to know equivalence for higher education reasons, then you would need to discuss that with the university or college concerned.

Cheers

Whirls

[tiggermoth]

I was really asking to gauge how difficult the study (and exams) are. I really enjoyed doing my PPL study and exams, I had forgotten how rewarding it was to absorb new material. The only subject I found totally uninspiring was Air Law. Ironically I was recapping my Air Law over the weekend becasue I had gone rusty on rights of way (on the ground), minimum heights and whether to use the quadrant rule when VFR at 4000ft...

It's tempting for me to do the CPL or ATPL exams as a learning excercise which would also improve my knowledge in flying. Who knows, at the end of it I could even think about going into commercial flying.

[scroggs]

Please don't let this thread become a general discussion about academia and qualifications in general; I will have to strip out anything I feel is irrelevant to the purpose of this forum - that is, getting an ATPL! I really don't give a damn what the equivalence of GCSEs to O-Levels is (or was), and neither the answer nor the discussion will help anyone. Do it in JetBlast if you want to have a rant about educational standards.

The ATPL exams are not difficult in the nature or level of the knowledge required. They are difficult simply because of the volume of study and the limited time in which they must be completed. They do not in any way approach the academic level of a conventional degree. For reasons mired in history, they don't even accurately reflect current science in aerodynamics and other topics, so the (rather shallow) knowledge gained is of little use once the exams are over. They are simply a filter, a hoop to jump through.

Because of the amount of study involved, some insititutions (such as the Open University) may give you credits towards degree studies for your ATPL and other aviation qualifications. That is worth following up if academic qualifications are of interest to you; to all other intents and purposes the ATPL has no academic value whatsoever.

Scroggs

[Whirlygig]

Tiggermoth,

If you found PPL Air Law uninspiring, wait 'til you do it at commercial level!! The PPL syllabus contains the stuff you need to know, the ATPL/CPL syllabus contains more useless shyte (please bear in mind folks, that I'm a helicopter and these exams are fixed wing biassed) about the structure and history of ICAO and annex numbers etc.!

Cheers

Whirls

[cosworth211]

the (rather shallow) knowledge gained is of little use once the exams are over.
I don't think its fair to play down the value of the ATPLS's in your flight training, while I struggled to find relevance of certain material I also learned a great deal that I feel really developed myself as a pilot without even touching an aircraft.
IMO the reason some people liken the ATPLS's to pre degree level education is the simple fact you can use the vast amount of feedback to pass the majority of the exams without actually having a good understanding of the subjects.
I have a business degree but still found the ATPL's hard going.

[Pilotbeijing]

Hey there i am a student at oxford, and one of my mates on the course has no A-levels and has averaged great scores on his flying and 97 on his ground school. It is possible just be determined to succeed and it will happen. However as regards the money side of things it is expensive and integrated is not a cheap option, but if it is practical for you to do i recommend you doing it.:ok: