Citation 560 Excel

[Pace]

I am an FAA ATP rated on the 500 series of citations ie 500/550/560 and have flown the Citation1 2, Bravo and five.

I have been offered work on the Citation Excel 560 if my type rating covers it.
I was told today that the Excel although it carries the 560 designator requires a seperate type rating and not just a differences course.

If that is the case and it does require a full type rating then thats me out of the loop?

Can anyone help

pace

[Youens]

For the FAA it is a different type CE-560XL

[Arkwright]

.....under JAR/EASA/CAA it's a different type rating as well!!!
Thank Flight Safety for that!!! :mad:

[FLEXJET]

Athough wings and avionics are pretty much the same for both C560 Ultra and C56X, it's a different type rating.

Some differences :
The use of thrust reversers is more sensitive with the Excel, and you would need to be trained for APU use (optional equipment on the Excel, but always covered during type training).

[Pace]

I also heard that Flight safety wanted to sell a full and expensive type rating and put a lot of pressure on for a full type rating.

Whether a differences course would have sufficed?

Oh well

Pace

[erikv]

Definitely a different rating. Whether you need it is another subject. I would not be surprised if FSI had a say in in. AFAIK it was FSI who caused the B1900 and B350 to be split up in the USA, whereas it is still a common rating in Europe.

Erik.

[theWings]

If you can get from an old II to a Bravo via differences training, then how on earth can't you get from a Bravo to an Excel?

No really, does anyone know why? A few systems differences and an APU, or is there alot more to it?

[His dudeness]

Since when do Authorities exercise common sense ?
Look at the 550/551, in most cases divided only by the AFM -> two different ratings nowadays.
KingAir B100 with TFE engines (TOTALLY different to operate) is one CR with the 90/99/100/A100/200 with PT6ers.
CJ->CJ3 one rating, despite th fact that th CJ3 is above 12.500lbs MTOM.
In the beginning, the Excel WAS one Rating with the others (500/501/550/551/560) but after a few months it was split. Dunno why.

What i know for sure is, that the CJ2 was split from the CJ/CJ2 rating for about 3 months by the german authority because of an interview done with a germen operator that basically said its a totally different airplane. The guy meant that it is targeted at other clints needs, not operational. After about 3 months and a lot of writing, calling ect, thy backed down.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Can confirm that the rating is indeed a different one, the ink on my temporary FAA Certificate XL rating is still wet so perhaps can comment fairly accurately as I have been flying a Bravo for seven years.

Personally I think there has to be a new type rating involved, for no other reason than the type rating has to differentiate between somebody who has been flying around in a 1977 500 for thirty years to somebody jumping into a brand new XLS - they are worlds apart.

I've got over 1000 hours in the Bravo and a little amount of II time and I must confess certainly in the ground school I ended up learning the differences between the Bravo and the Excel, whos systems are virtually identical apart from the addition of an APU.

from the Encore/Bravo its not a great step, same engine core and avionics but from a JT15 powered I or II its probably a little bit too much. I would arguably venture to say that it would be a pretty steep curve for somebody to go from a 501 to an Encore

Dont forget the authorities have to consider the lowest common denominator, not the die hard GA types who wouldn't have a problem.

If you have an opportunity to get typed on the XL then its a fabulous bit of kit, its more straightforward to fly than the other 500's with great field performance too

[Pace]

I have flown a 1, 2, 5 and Bravo and agree on the Bravo versus a steam driven 1.

My 500 series covers the 500/550/560 and the excel is a 560 albeit with the XL tagged on the end.
I was offered work on the 560XL and carrying the 560 is misleading to pilots who believe they are covered on the 500/550/560.

Now I am faced with somehow adding the 560XL there are talks about me being given the rating but if that doesnt materialise then its a matter of finding a cheap route as I cannot afford FS if I want the position

Pace

[G-SPOTs Lost]

WRT the conspiracy by flightsafety regarding a full course, FSi argued for and won their case about an abridged course of training from 500/550/560 to an excel type rating.

Failure rate was high, guy I took over from on the excel did it. It was five days and was "like taking a drink out of a fire hose", they even had guys quitting the course two or three days into it.

The course wasn't a success and was dropped after a period of time trying to make it work in vain iirc

[airmen]

Definitely a Type Rating, last year price at CAE Dallas 18000 USD.
We have guys flying the II, Ultra and XL, they need the two ratings and they renew their rating one year out of two, that is Ultra, II and next year XL!

Thats it...