King Air Multi Crew.

[Bearing 123]

Hi Folks,
I have searched the Forum for an answer to my next question, but nothing clear resulted so please bear with me if this thread has been here before.
I was under the impression and I am most probably wrong, that from King Air size up (i.e. pressurized A/C over a certain weight,) to operate under UK Public Transport Category rules and under an AOC, The aircraft had to be operated as a multi crew aircraft with both pilots being Type Rated and that all of the hours logged be they P1 or P2 counted towards the Multi crew hours required for ATPL issue.
1. What happens if that A/C is certified single pilot
2. If operated as Multi crew which I know that is down to the operators discression at times, do the hours in the right hand seat count if PNF.
3 Do the hours in total count towards the Multi crew hours needed for unfreezing the ATPL.

Please somebody clear this up for me as I have had untold debates about it.

Many Thanks in advance

[5 RINGS]

Lasors put it quite clearly on the first page dealing with ATPL criteria...

Copilot time on JAR/FAR23 aircraft operated by two crew as per the company AOC, counts towards the 500 Hrs multi-crew requirement for the issue an ATPL (for sure if issued by the UK CAA!!).

Nevertheless, you'll need a JAR25 TR on top of these 500 Hrs multi-crew on JAR23 to unfreeze your ATPL.

refer to LASORS, it's crystal clear!

[Bearing 123]

5 Rings many thanks for the reply. I 've had a look at Lasors and call me thick but how is this Crystal Clear

"500 hours Multi-Pilot operations on aeroplanes

type certificated in accordance with the
JAR/FAR-25 Transport Category or the JAR/FAR-23

Commuter Category or equivalent code, or
single-pilot aeroplanes operated by 2-pilots
according to operational requirements"

Does the last bit mean that as long as something like a King Air 200 which is certified as a single pilot operation, is operated by two type rated crew, than this is credited as full multi crew hours? Or does the CAA have to be involved to certify the A/C as a two crew aircraft. Apologies if this is long winded, but for new job reasons I have to get to the bottom of this.

Cheers & Many thanks:confused:

[His dudeness]

or
single-pilot aeroplanes operated by 2-pilots
according to operational requirements"

1) The B200 IS a SPA, FAR23. Refer to Limitations, Flight crew in the POH.

2) If you operate under an AOC, you operate by 2-pilots
according to operational requirements

Thats how I would read it. Why not call the boys and gals at the CAA and ask?

[Roja]

Hi all

I had thought about this when I done my Kingair 200 rating all those many years ago, I did send a mail ( within the last 2 years ) to the CAA and got the following reply

"" I can confirm that the flying you undertake in the B200, flown multi-crew
ops, can be logged as as with multi-pilot type, ie P2 and PI/S. For
clarification on which entry when please refer to LASORS Sect A page 37. I
can also confirm the flight time will count towards the 500 multi-crew ops
requirement for the issue of a JAR-FCL ATPL(A). Please note you will still
need to have a multi-pilot Aeroplane typerating endorsed prior to ATPL(A)
issue. For further details please refer to LASORS SectG. ""

from the mouth of the horse so to speak !!!!!!!!!!

I have had this conversation with many a single pilot type F/O who thought that they could unfreeze, but the fact is, as the horses mouth above states !!!!

If any above does not make sense, please refer your comments to a Mr Bombay Sapphire. and Mr Budweiser.



Thank you



Roja

[Bearing 123]

Thanks all of you for taking the time on this. Its getting clearer by the post.
The last point now being is: If the A/C is on a JAR Ops AOC carrying Pax and the A/C is able to carry 9 pax as the KA200 is, buy only configured for 6 pax, Is the Operator legally required to operate 2 crew and do those 2 pilots have to be type rated.

Cheers and thanks

[GusHoneybun]

1. What happens if that A/C is certified single pilot
As long as both crew members can perform their duties from their seat, then nothing. Basically, must be able to do an OPC/LPC from whatever seat you sit in.

2. If operated as Multi crew which I know that is down to the operators discression at times, do the hours in the right hand seat count if PNF.
Yes

3 Do the hours in total count towards the Multi crew hours needed for unfreezing the ATPL.
Yes. However, as said above, you will need a proper JAR25 type to be issued the actual ATPL licence.


If the A/C is on a JAR Ops AOC carrying Pax and the A/C is able to carry 9 pax as the KA200 is, buy only configured for 6 pax, Is the Operator legally required to operate 2 crew and do those 2 pilots have to be type rated.
Doesn't make a difference how many seats are actually fitted here. If your company operates the aircraft (as per the ops manual) as a multi crew aircraft, then yes, it will need 2 crew and yes, both crew will need a type rating.

LASORS is suprisingly clear on this subject.

[south coast]

I agree.

I have done it myself.

I had over 500 hours on a B200 and hours on a B1900, both of which are certified as Single Pilot Planes.

However, both planes were operated with 2 pilots due to regulations and insurance requirements by the people being flown.

So, the time counted towards, actually not towards,but for all of the 500 hours Multi Pilot Operations.

But, as others have said, you will need your Multi Pilot Type Rating for the issue of your ATPL as the B200 does not fall into that category.

I didnt even need to do a MCC as a letter from ones employer stating you have flown 'x' amount of hours in 'x' environment under 'x' regulations and with a quick look through your log book an exemtion was issued with a rather large financial saving.

Good luck.

[Bearing 123]

Gushoneybun. Many thanks for that. When you re-read the Lasors it does say that but not in as plain a language as you have. In that case what if the operator has the A/C on their AOC and in their OPS manual as a SPA, but for pax reassurance puts two pilots up front. If they are both TR am I right in saying that only one at a time i.e. the PF can log the time?

[Bearing 123]

South Coast Thanks. could you check my previous post and see if you could answer that question as well, Great info guys and very helpful as this is such a grey area
Cheers

[lifesabeech]

Yes as far as I am aware unless the a/c is operated as multi-crew under the AOC ops manual only the commander can log the time.

With regard to multi-crew time. I have been down this road and there is no problem with using those hours to meet the "500 multi-crew hours" requirement. I recently got my self "unfrozen" with hours accumulated on a B-200 and a CJ both of which are SPA operated in a multi-crew role under an AOC. You do still need a MPA type on your licence.

Good Luck

[StevenN]

Hi

Can someone please clarify that if you sit in the RHS of say a King Air and you are type rated on this aircraft that the hours count towards your total time.

I understand that the 500 hours count towards multi crew time but I am more interested in whether the hours you do count towards total time and can be logged in your log book as P2.

Thanks in advance

Steve

[south coast]

Steve, you have surely answered your own question.

If you are going to count the hours in the king air towards the 500 hours multi pilot, then surely they will be in your log book and go towards your total time?

Of course they do!

[5 RINGS]

RHS time on any JAR23 A/C counts towards the magic 500 multicrew, as long as you're rated, and operating multicrew as per company AOC and SOPs.

Should you fly as safety pilot on a private operation, wouldn't be the same story...

A RHS frequent flyer.

[StevenN]

Cheers 5 Rings.

Just to clarify if the aircraft is JAR 23 , and you are type rated on the aircraft, and the AOC states it should be operated multi crew all the time spent in the RHS can be logged therefore the only thing left to do once you reach the required hours for the ATPL is to do a type rating on a multi crew aircraft.

[lifesabeech]

StevenN

You got it, now you just need to get those hours up, and find some nice company to get you a MPA type rating.

Good luck with the hunt

[StevenN]

Thanks a lot guys for your replies.

Steve