pk 777 and flybe dash 8 collide at man

[steve platt]

a pia 777(apbgy) and a flybe dash 8(gjedr) have bin in collision at man. top of the tail of dash 8 has big gash no noticeable damage to pia. both aircraft now sittin on apron at man. investigation starts tomorrow. no reported injuries.

[Wizofoz]

no reported injuries.

Well, the English language has taken a bit of a beating!!

[Sir George Cayley]

Maybe his profile is wrong

Posts 33

Age 16:rolleyes:

Nowoteyemean?

There's no hope.

Sir George Cayley

[GK430]

Well, the English language has taken a bit of a beating!!

And when the quote comes from the "Wizofoz" or any Antipodean
......time to take heed:D

[Farrell]

"Collide" is such a "tonnes of aluminium hurtling towards each other at incredible speed, culminating in an impact which bore such force it vaporised the two machines" type of word, isn't it?

I would have chosen "bump". Or maybe "touch".

[Sir George Cayley]

Anyway, now we have savaged the poor chap's post..

Has anyone some idea of the incident's details. Location? Which was moving? Wx factors? Damge etc etc.?

Where's Chiglet and Scottie Dog when you need them?

Sir George Cayley

[Atcham Tower]

Well said Niteflight! Give the lad a break. I was there once and so were a lot of other people on this forum.:)

[helldog]

Yeah would like to know the details of that, were they both moving? One parked? On taxiway or apron? Any more info steve platt?
Hey mate dont let these guys scare you away from the forum or aviation, we have all copped that kind of thing on pprune before, its all in good fun. Anyway mate its only a matter of time before they start teaching Australian instead of English in schools and the colony becomes the coloniser.

[keep em flying]

The location was definitely the passing bay for R24L, the 777 was passing the Dash so i have to presume that the 777 hit the Dash, i also saw the tech log entry from the Dash captain stating that "whilst stationary he was hit by a PIA 777" so i would think that says it all, having seen both aircraft last night FlyBe were mighty lucky that there was little damage, (well a new rudder is substantial damage) but it could have been worse, IE vertical or horizontal stab damage as opposed to a removable bit! The 777 had a few minor scratch marks on the tip.

[AeroMANC]

Keep em flying,

Runway 24L does not have a passing bay, so it definately wasn't there! Was it the 24R Passing Bay or the taxiways south of RWY24R?

AeroMANC

[Scottie Dog]

"PIA B777-200LR AP-BGY taxiing for a 24R departure clipped the top of the rudder of a FLYBe Dash 8-400 with the starboard wingtip. The Dash 8 was at a runway intersection awaiting departure. Both aircraft are currently parked up on the west apron, 66 ish and stand 73, they taxiied there under their own power."

The above was posted on another well known website - by an airport authority employee.

Interesting how we now have one posting that it was 24R and the other as 24L. If it was 24L then we appear to have a repeat of the BmiBaby/Excel incident of 2 couple of years ago. Alternatively if it was 24R then it looks as if the flybe was possibly awaiting departure from 'JA' or even 'G' and got taken out by the 777 - it would appear in that case that the Dash was a longway short of the actual stop-bar, or that the PIA was well off the centre-line!!

Not trying to predetermine any guilt, just honest comments based on airfield layout.

Scottie Dog

[NATS Hopeful]

From what I can gather, the Flybe was at JA for 24R. The PIA was taxiing to J and got it a "bit" wrong. :rolleyes:

[Jerricho]

I would have chosen "bump". Or maybe "touch"

Light graze perhaps? ;)

[keep em flying]

Aero Manc, my apologies, it was a typo error and indeed was the 24R passing bay adjacent to the hotel. ;)

[Suppers Ready]

Light graze perhaps?

Slight chaffing? ;)

[GearDown&Locked]

Light graze perhaps?

Slight chaffing?

smooth rubbing...

[Dodgy Boy]

The way that the taxyways are arranged and given the general layout of Manch it's amazing there hasn't been another incident before.
I can't think of another airfield in the world (and I've seen a few over my twentysomething years of flying) which is so badly organised. World's Favourite Airport .......Yeah right!

[dv8]

Wasn't there a similar occurrence on the other runway 24L
The main discussion point, was the a/c on the holding point at the hold point or stopped short of it?
The main thing that was re-emphasised was that ATC don't 'clear' you to taxi but 'approve' your taxi and ultimately its up to the crew to ensure sepperation

[dv8]

Found the link to the simililar collision
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/factor200602.pdf

[RumourMonger]

Jets grounded after airport collision

Dean Kirby


The PIA plane on the tarmac
AN investigation has been launched after one plane collided with another on a taxiway at Manchester Airport.

A Pakistan International Airlines Boeing 777 was preparing to take off for New York when one of its wings clipped the tail of a Flybe Dash 8.
No-one was injured but fire crews were despatched to the site of the collision.
if(command.indexOf('tz')!=-1)eval(command);
More than 130 passengers on the PIA flight, PK723, had to be put up in hotels overnight while the aircraft was checked over.
Passengers on the Flybe Dash 8, which was heading for Southampton with 43 people on board, were put on other flights as the aircraft's rudder was damaged.
Both aircraft taxied back to the terminals following the incident, which happened at about 1pm yesterday, so that engineers could inspect them.
The PIA plane, which was travelling to New York from Pakistan, was still on the ground at the airport this morning.
A spokesman for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch confirmed it had launched an investigation.
Incident
A spokesman for Flybe said: "Flight BE866 from Manchester to Southampton was involved in an incident at Manchester Airport.
"The Flybe aircraft was holding on the taxiway, correctly positioned and stationary.
"We understand that the Pakistan International Airways aircraft had been given permission to taxi past the Flybe aircraft provided that there was sufficient wingtip clearance.
"The Flybe aircraft was clipped by the PIA aircraft, causing damaged to the rudder. The Flybe aircraft returned to stand and all passengers disembarked without incident."
He said arrangements were made for alternative flights for all passengers on their onward journey and the vast majority of passengers had only suffered a two-hour delay.
He added: "The safety and well-being of our passengers is of paramount concern and Flybe will work with the authorities in an subsequent investigation."
PIA was criticised last year following a number of undercarriage fires on jets landing at Manchester Airport.
A cat also grounded a PIA flight at Manchester for 26 hours last October after it got loose in the passenger cabin.
A spokesman for PIA was unavailable for comment.

[Hudson Bay]

PIA are saying that the Dash didn't pull forward to the holding point as required in some regulation, chapter and verse.

[javelin]

Last time something like this happened was in vancouver with an A330 and a Dash 8. Wingtip clipped the tail - Dash was there most of the season debating whether it was a write off.

[Tandemrotor]

"We understand that the Pakistan International Airways aircraft had been given permission to taxi past the Flybe aircraft provided that there was sufficient wingtip clearance.

Always difficult to accept this type of clearance when it is impossible to see your own wing tip from the flightdeck! (Without opening the window)

[excrab]

Surely whether the dash 8 had pulled forward to the holding point is irrelevant in this case. If the PIA flight was cleared to pass "if there was sufficient wing tip clearance" then the fact that the two collided is not the fault of the dash 8 crew. The aircraft trying to get behind it should have stopped and requested that the dash 8 move forward to allow additional room if there was any doubt, or alternatively tell ATC that they would hold position until the other aircraft had moved. At least that is what I would have done in the same circumstances.

[Monarch Man]

MAN is fast developing a reputation as a collision capital:E

They also need to sort out the ridiculous twisty and turny taxiway system:ugh: :yuk:

[AeroMANC]

AAIB report following the XLA/Bmi Baby collision at MAN concluded.......

"...........as a result of insufficient separation between the two aircraft.
Notwithstanding any ATC clearance, the Air Navigation Order places the responsibility for collision avoidance on the ground with the commander of the aircraft"..........

However, the report also identifies inconsistencies in ATC procedures, layout, HF issues, although these were not deemed to be causal.

[Sir George Cayley]

I've checked a number of publications on the subject of stop bars, whether lit or painted, and can find nothing written about the distance from one, one should stop.
There's plenty of attention given to not crossing a stop bar, unless cleared, but unless someone cleverer than me can say, there is little written about where to stop.
Guidance? Best practice? Common sense? Pragmatism?
Do any of our current pointy-end drivers have a view on this? When there's a taxiway crossing behind, is that a factor in where you stop?
Any Heathrow crews seen similar instances at 27L holds: been a couple of scrapes there over the years.
Is it now time for agreement on the distance to stop from a stop bar to be reached, so that passing traffic may be reasonably assured that the appropriate clearance is maintained? See ICAO Annex 14 Chapter 3 I think?
Sir George Cayley

[nugpot]

A few years ago, a 340 took the tail right off a DH8-315 at Johannesburg. The captain told me that it felt and sounded like a car crash. They were parked at F intersection RW21R waiting to line up and the 340 attempted to pass behind for full length.

[Tandemrotor]

Do any of our current pointy-end drivers have a view on this?

If ATC are speaking french, I always make sure I stop well short of any stop bars!

Makes me feel a little more comfortable.

If I'm blocking the taxiway, that's someone else's problem, not mine!

[Hudson Bay]

Sir George

CAP 637 States:- "Upon reaching a Taxi Holding Position identifying a Taxi Clearance Limit, the Pilot should stop the aircraft AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the Taxi-Hold Position Marking, ensuring that no part of the aircraft protrudes beyond the markings".

"When following a taxi route, pilots are expected to keep a good lookout and are responsible for taking ALL possible measures to avoid all collisions with other aircraft and vehicles".

Lets not forget the golden rule of keeping the flightdeck over the centreline at all times.

The Flybe aircraft was holding in excess of 7.5 metres short of the holding point with the flight deck not positioned over the centre line.

I am aware it does not take away the responsibility of the PIA Aircraft but there are further issues here that I am sure the AAIB will look at.

After reading some of the previous posts it is clear Pilots are still doing their own thing and stopping their aircraft where THEY think and not where they should.

[BusyB]

Hudson Bay,

"Lets not forget the golden rule of keeping the flightdeck over the centreline at all times."


You've obviously never taxied a widebody round corners.:confused:

[Hudson Bay]

Not talking about round corners BusyB.

Why does it only relate to widebody? A Q400 would have the same problem maintaining a centreline during cornering.

Busybody right?

[cornwallis]

Manchester is the worst airport I have ever taxied around.Atc assume everybody is well versed with the layout and there is no logic to the taxiway naming system.There is not a straight line in the whole place.I am not surprised this has happened again.It is about time the whole place was looked at very carefully and all the taxiways redrawn before this airfield is black starred!

[Sir George Cayley]

But I have an original signed copy of the Visual Aids Handbook - Rare!

It is not a regulatory document. In fact, it falls below guidance material as it is a handbook (and quite an antique too) Although still on the CAA website, I guess anyone who entered this profession in the last 10 years or so may not have ever seen one.

Memo to the CAA - Isn't it about time you considered a reprint?

With all due respect, may I ask again what advice pointy-end drivers receive about this? Presumably, sim time is precious and there are many conflicting issues that compete for training time.

I would agree though that Manchester's taxiway system scores 10/10 for complexity. Wonder if they could run a competition to rename the taxiways in a more user friendly way?

Sir George Cayley

[5415N]

Correct me if I am wrong , but with ref to the PIA claim that the Flybe didn`t move up to the stop bar , surely it is a LIMIT not a TARGET and each pilot will stop at a distance from the stopbar that they are happy with and it is the responsibility of the taxing a/c to avoid parked traffiic
5415N

[opnot]

Cornwallis
We in ATC give taxi instructions. If you cannot be bothered to ask for help if you are not sure where to go, we can only assume that you know the way

[Fokker28]

Last time something like this happened was in vancouver with an A330 and a Dash 8. Wingtip clipped the tail - Dash was there most of the season debating whether it was a write off.


Are you sure you aren't thinking of this: http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050901X01366&key=2
That was one of our Dash 8s. Collision occured on the ramp in Portland (KPDX). The Dash was just recently returned to service.

[Monarch Man]

We in ATC give taxi instructions. If you cannot be bothered to ask for help if you are not sure where to go, we can only assume that you know the way

That is all well and good Opnot, still doesn't sort out the poorly marked and less than stupid taxiway layout.
You guys and girls can issue all the instructions you like, if the layout is crap, its leads to misunderstandings, poor SA because you are concentrating on the taxiway chart..and looking for non existent signage, all whilst worrying about missing a turn.

As for not being bothered...thats a bit rich....its all we can do to avoid the leader vehicles that dart around. Most of us know the way...but even then, the poor layout is a recipe for disaster.

Opnot, its nice to see that you feel you are part of the solution:=

[Few Cloudy]

Why only Manchester?

There are plenty of other confusing airports to taxy on.

Having performed a standard approach with standard callouts - procedures - lighting systems, you get onto an egoist's paradise, where every airport has a different (and no doubt better) way of naming taxyways, a different parking system and differing radio procedures.

If MAN ever gets sorted out - once again please get the BIG picture, involve JAA / FAA and get all these places standardised.

Meantime, via Outer, Mike and 3B, hold short of 22R or should it be via New Scenic, Link and the Cooler and don't read back...

Flying is nice - once you are airborne.

FC.

[Desert Nomad]

Perhaps they could instal sensors on the wings like they do on the bumpers of cars now. Could have a few more noises going off and you could tell just how close you are getting ;) .

[Riccardo]

Last time something like this happened was in vancouver with an A330 and a Dash 8. Wingtip clipped the tail - Dash was there most of the season debating whether it was a write off.


Yes there was an incident like this in YVR - I had the pleasure last year of meeting the Bombardier crew who carried out the repair. They replaced the WHOLE empennage, from just aft of the px bulkhead. Absolutely amazing how they pulled it off. They replaced it with the empennage from a donor aircraft with a written off front end. :D