Lasers pointed at aircraft

[robo283]

I've posted a thread in the Rumours & Threads forum; anyone (especially police air support) experienced laser pointers being directed at them? I am researching this for a serious purpose. Please PM me if you prefer.

[SilsoeSid]

Mainly high powered torches, but the occasional laser.
Nothing that a knock on the door doesn't usually sort out :ok:

However, I believe some scrote 'oop north has just received 100hrs community service from the magistrate for shining a laser at a helicopter. (Endangering an aircraft).

[NickLappos]

Gotta watch out when you use a big round term like "laser". There are lasers and there are lasers.

IMHO the idea that a small laser pointer aimed from the ground can harm an aircraft in flight is silly, even the fool who clustered several and was arrested for same.

I do know that some guy was arrested for using powerful industrial lasers to shine on aircraft - a whole 'nother problem.

[Basher577]

I belive Wiltshire ASU had an incident a couple of years ago. But if I remember correctly it was a high powered torch not a laser. Unit landed and arested the purp. Good on em!

[robo283]

Nice one Wilts :ok:

From what I can tell, there are fairly powerful green pointers available on the internet, effective (whatever that means) up to 1500m (or a mile as we oldies still say).

[tangovictor]

the poor lad, probably came from a broken home, and, thought, if they can shine a light at me, whilst running from he's lastest burglary, then why can't he shine one back !

[Basher577]

Here is the link to the story:

http://archive.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/2005/11/10/253909.html

[JimEli]

We had an incident 2 weeks ago. Guy lased our helo with a laser leveling device. He got a visit from the local police. Claimed he was playing with his new toy.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Very occasional Laser, I assume pocket size.
Now torches at least once per set of shifts.

[Letsby Avenue]

The little red things are a minor irritant - I got one of those nice high powered green ones in the eye a few years ago an it was a tad uncomfortable for a few hours afterwards :*
http://www.laserglow.com/Portable.html
The banner across the top of the page showing the laser is spot on - I remember seeing that green finger of light and thinking "wtf is that?"

[sunnywa]

Here in Perth, West Oz, we seem to have a particularly bored bunch of a**holes with lasers. We in the Air Wing get lased regularly, ranging form the weak red ones (hand held pointers) to the very bright Class 3B green lasers (illegal but readily available on the internet from the US - god bless'um). These Class 3B are the size of a pen and we have on (confiscated) that goes for miles. One more than one occasion we, have vectored ground troops in to arrest and currently have 3 awaiting trial. Unfortunately, the Australian Civil Aviation Act (and the new anti terrorist bit of it) does not cover this so we have trouble trying to make it stick under common assault to the crew. Heavies flying into Perth International also get hit on a regular basis so its a happening thing down here.
Two times after being hit by a green laser, the crews have been U/S for the night due to headaches after 5 minutes (and that was just a flash straight in the eyes). CASA and the ATSB know all about these incidents but as yet, nothing has been done to enforce anything. We keep a laser log to keep a record of these incidents.
Have tried to get Gallet to make a visor covering the 350-352um band (the bad green ones) but cost prohibitive for such a small number.
I'm trying to talk the bosses into fitting a 2.75" rocket launcher so I can put one back down the bearing, but I haven't had much luck yet.:uhoh:
Till then, we just fly around with one eye closed.

[Blackhawk9]

This is getting more wide spread out here have known of EMS machines getting hit with red and green lasers in ACT,NSW, QLD and WA the high idiot time seems to be school holiday time and around public holidays (New Year, Australia day etc), submitted mod to head office to fit .50 cal sniper rifle but was not approved!!

[CyclicRick]

I was green lasered a while back but luckily saw it coming my way and managed to look away in time. The ned was in the middle of a crowd and was not found unfortunatley. These things are a real risk.:mad:

Rick

[Razor61]

The Fleet Air Arm at RNAS Yeovilton have information on their website regarding numerous high powered torches being pointed at the Lynx and Seakings using Merryfield. And to call them or the police if someone sees them doing it.
"Snip":-
DANGER TO AIRCRAFT. : There have been a number of instances of helicopters (especially close to Merryfield) being illuminated at night with powerful torches. It must be stressed that this is extremely dangerous, especially to aircrews using Night vision Equipment and has serious flight safety implications. It is also a civil offence, and the police are always informed of incidents. "Unsnip"

[Whirlygig]

I've had a copy of LASORS thrown at me but that's not what you mean is it?

Cheers

Whirls

[NickLappos]

Whirls,
I think the book is more dangerous. The mythology of laser pointers (red or green) blinding folks is so ingrained into the public knowledge that it will be hard to let reason into the discussion, but perhaps one could read the below:

http://www.equipped.com/lasers_airliners.htm

"All these consumer grade inexpensive laser pointers are Class IIIa laser devices with a maximum output power of less than 5mW (milliwatts). These devices are stringently regulated by the FDA and at this power level they are eye safe even at very close range. That means you can shine them at your eye momentarily at close range without any danger of permanent damage. The Feds have set the limit low enough that you would have to work at hurting yourself or others with these consumer grade lasers from any distance beyond very close in and at the distances from which an airline cockpit could be illuminated on approach, they are harmless."


And here:http://www.laserist.org/Laserist/Safety_aircraft.html
"A New Jersey man was recently arrested by the FBI for allegedly illuminating the cockpit of an aircraft with a laser pointer. The aircraft was traveling at a speed of 250 knots at an altitude of 3,000 feet. The man was using a commonly available, over-the-counter laser rated at 5.0 milliwatts of power. It would require the combined output of several thousand of these lasers, all focused in a single beam, to cause eye damage to a pilot flying at the distance involved.
The common 5.0 milliwatt laser pointer cannot cause eye damage beyond fifty feet, and at a distance of 3,000 feet it is classified as a distraction. Laser pointers, even at distances of a 300 feet, constitute a hazard (under the worst of circumstances) similar to the glare from an oncoming car's headlights or the flash from a point-and-shoot camera. While this can impair the vision of some people, the effect is temporary and does not cause permanent damage."

[ShyTorque]

"While this can impair the vision of some people, the effect is temporary and does not cause permanent damage."

Temporary unless it causes a flying accident, when the damage may be more permanent.

[Whirlygig]

I think the book is more dangerous.

Certainly was for the personage wot flung it! :E

Cheers

Whirls

[Droopy]

Not often I'd disagree with Nick but there are plenty of powerful ones around, eg...http://www.laserglow.com/Portable.html
We have a serial offender with a high powered green laser who is proving hard to catch [got me once from about 10nm away] and is believed to be responsible for targetting aircraft inbound to Manchester at 5-6000ft...whatever he's using is definitely not a toy.

[NickLappos]

Here's how un-safe the lasers are:

Lasers warn pilots of restricted airspace

From Kathleen Koch
CNN

Friday, February 11, 2005 Posted: 2148 GMT (0548 HKT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military is planning a final demonstration Friday night of a ground-based laser system designed to warn pilots who have flown into restricted airspace over the nation's capital.

During the demonstration of the Visual Warning System, a test aircraft will be illuminated with alternating red and green laser lights, said Michael Kucharek, spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

"It's an attention-getter, but it's not blinding," Kucharek said. "It's not a distraction. So pilots can still focus on flying the aircraft without endangering anyone or themselves."

NORAD is looking for a cheaper, safer way to let pilots know they've strayed into restricted airspace over Washington.

Currently, fighter jets are scrambled and either intercept unauthorized planes or alert them by dropping flares.

"That's a very costly kind of operation," Kucharek said. "With the Visual Warning System, we wouldn't necessarily have to go to those extremes to get their attention."

A NORAD press release says the lasers are "eye-safe and non-hazardous at all ranges" and are distinct from other light signals used by air traffic control of the Federal Aviation Administration.

Kucharek said the laser would not be visible to other aircraft in the test area or to residents on the ground.

The concept was developed by the Air Force Rapid Capabilities office, whose mission is to get new technology to aid in the war on terror into the field as quickly as possible.

Kucharek said the system will give NORAD "another tool in its toolbox to protect the airspace over the national capital region."

Technical testing of the laser system was completed January 12, and the hardware, software, beam and tracking mechanisms were working properly, he said.

Operational testing could begin this spring.

Before the system is implemented, Kucharek said, it will need further FAA approval. Intense briefings of pilots in the region will also be held so that all understand how the system works and how to respond.

For now, the system will be used only over the District of Columbia, he said.

[Droopy]

I'm not saying they're going to cause eye damage, but the powerful green ones are a definite problem in that you have to turn your head away or turn the aircraft away. If you're in a night hover [as I seem to spend most of my airborne time] that constitutes a definite hazard regardless of the fact that it might [unwittingly] help suspects get away.

[semirigid rotor]

Sorry to disagree Nick, but I was hit by a green laser a couple of years ago. It refracted around the cockpit, thousands of tiny green lines everywhere. More than just a distraction. I was in the hover at the time (police op) moved forward a little and turned my back on the laser. It happened at the most critical time in the police operation and if we had found the source of the laser he/she would have got the book thrown at them!

While non of us in the crew suffered any eye pain (the policemen closed their eyes as soon as it happened), it is easy to see (no pun intended) how this could have led to loss of control and an "unexplained" accident :{

[NickLappos]

semi,
Nothing beats real experience! I concur.

[Sewing Machine Man]

Some advertisers are boasting the power of their LASER pointers, stating they are capable of bursting balloons.

[jayteeto]

I have incident reported laser and high powered torch experiences. Recently we had a lad arrested, caught with the industrial lamp in his hand, and the CPS refused to prosecute. Seems like someone has to crash first.....:mad:

[L'WAAPAM]

I was lasered once by some pesky kids whilst dropping a patrol, one dark night in NI. We were on black light and NVG and didnt notice any adverse effects at the time. We did report it and were sent to the eye hospital for check ups as there was some initial worry about the "enhancing" effects of the goggs but all was fine.

I think the lasers used were the hand held "pointer" type not sure if a more powerful type would have had a different outcome.

Cheers

L'

[sunnywa]

Nick,

We were hit with a green Class IIIB laser (illegal but easily purchased on the internet from the US for about USD$50) and had it confiscated. It was a 20mW and it caused the crewman a severe headache after 5 mins. While I agree that they little ones are a mere annoyance, these bigger ones that hit you without notice do sting and could cause the pilot to flinch at the wrong time.

I believe the State of California has introduced laws to make illuminating aircraft with both lasers and handheld spotlights illegal.

This is a growing problem for helo drivers.

[SilsoeSid]

As it happens, only last night were we lased by a green one!
(see date/time stamp)

click on pic to see video
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/LASER.jpg (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/?action=view&current=laser.flv)

Initially, as semirigid rotor said above "It refracted around the cockpit, thousands of tiny green lines everywhere. More than just a distraction."
Then he seemed to concentrate on the body of the aircraft as you can see.

Now....what mr laser didn't want to do was to get into his car, drive suspiciously, have us PNC the reg no, only to find out he wasn't insured!!


Now, as a twist to this thread, how about in these days, that laser beam is attached to one of these!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Rbs70_01.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBS-70

RBS 70 is a short-range man-portable (MANPADS), laser-guided missile system...
...If the operator is confident that he has a good track he fires. The missile then flies in the beam of the laser from the sight, adjusting its position constantly to stay within the beam. This puts a lot of pressure on the operator who needs to have a very steady aim. If the missile is guided to within 30 meters of the target a kill is 95% assured.

:eek: :uhoh:

[NickLappos]

Frankly, I am not sure there is any effective answer to the problem. Chasing down every one of the 6 billion yahoos who think the deep thought of flashing the helo will simply not work, those lasers are too cheap and available, and that small percentage of the population too foolish to think beforehand. The social problem is similar to the way boys toss rocks onto cars passing below on the motorway. On Comanche we studied how to somehow protect the crew by making windows that block the frequency of the beams, at some cost to the night visuals thru the windshield due tio general darkening. That might work, but the dollar cost would also be high.

BTW, L'WAAPAM, the goggles will assure that the laser does no harm, since the goggle is a very good filter. There is no direct path for light of any kind to pass thru the goggles. The light is stopped at the front plate, converted to goggle phosphorescent light, amplified and passed to the rear. The only effect (not a small one, but not a physical harm to the eyes) is that the goggles will pump to their max brightness.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Sid,

Happy memories of the boy racers not a million miles from the Wheels Project, and just on the boundary of 2 or more OCUs - ie more than one duty inspector deciding it's "not my problem"...

[ShyTorque]

We used to give 'em a dose of the Nitesun. They often got the message as it warmed them up and ruined their night vision, too.

[jayteeto]

Nitesun just stirs them up now, millions more of the vermin appear!!

[L'WAAPAM]

Nick,

That was the general thinking at the time, but the "Brass" wanted to cover their @rses so off we went to have dye put in our eyes!!!!

[Rushes]

There was an incident last year on approach to the Vanguaard Pad in London, the pilot had a lasor shone in his eyes....

And what happened to the lasor shining individual?

Response:

'Police kicked down his front door and nicked him!'

Marvellous

[Basher577]

Here's a recent incident for you that comes under this subject,
I was routing around the Thames yesterday (in daylight) for finals to Vanguard from the East. When I saw a green line crossing the river. I elected to climb and (not sure why but I always get a little twitchy around what I think maybe wires that I don't expect to be there) on climbing I traced the wire/light back to what I think was the Greenwich observator. It looks like a laser light has been set up to point at somewhere near the dome.
I'm not sure how long it has been there but in daytime it did suprise me, maybe my eye sight isnt as bad as I thought it was!
I informed London city twr but got the feeling the did'nt understand the relevance in there fixed wing world.
Not sure if this any conection with the message before this but this laser was too stable to be hand held.

[Aerodynamik]

That laser has been there years and eminates from Greenwich Observatory marking the E/W Meridian line. It's not always on and rarely during the day but in the right conditions at night you can see the green line stretching north past the M25.

[sss]

the greenwich laser

Bright green laser to illuminate Meridian Line from Royal Observatory Greenwich

On 16 December 1999, a spectacular bright green Meridian Line Laser was turned on at the Home of Time, the Royal Observatory Greenwich, illuminating the path of the Prime Meridian Line across the London sky. The Millennia Vs laser, manufactured by Spectra Physics Lasers Ltd, represents the state-of-the-art in high power diode pumped lasers. It will be illuminated every evening and will be visible for ten miles on a clear night.

[Sam-MAN]

Got this on a yahoo group earlier

1928
Just noted on approach freq, aircraft are being deliberately targeted by a green laser just south of the MAN ILS at about 8 miles out. How mad can some prople get.

Idiots