EGLL "West Coast" Departures - DC8/707

[Midland 331]

Folks,

I've seen mention of these in a number of posts.

I'm guessing that certain conditions would give these departures an "interesting" rate of climb, no doubt right on the edge of the envelope.
Were special ATC procedures applied in these situations - in addition to understanding controllers and lots of prayer?

I grew up close to East Midlands, quite close to ROBIN on A1, and recall some of the Pan Am 747-1xxs growling along at what looked like quite low levels, allowing the "large logo" fuselage letters to be recognised with the naked eye. Later listening activities revealed that some were barely making FL190 abeam Trent.

Were the earlier generation of aircraft (707/DC8) prone to "labour" more than the early widebodies on West Coast services?

Memories and observations welcomed!

r

[chevvron]

There used to be what was called a 'polar' departure from Heathrow; can't remember much detail except that it was pre B747, and was specifically for slow climbers and instead of a right turn towards Beacon Hill fan marker, they used to go left and circle round across final approach direct Garston. I think this procedure may have been dropped when Bovingdon VOR came on line, but maybe if Heathrow Director reads this, he may be able to supply other details.

[Talkdownman]

ISTR Polars went EPM-BIG-BPK cos they couldn't comply with the WOB SID profile. ISTR having to coordinate with Preston as they struggled to cross the POL above 245. Memory playing tricks, I shall have to go up in the loft and get the Mediator stuff out. Perhaps the air was thinner in those days.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't recall the "circling" departures, nor do I recall doing too much praying other than that I'd be high up the EG list! Sure, the long distance aircraft took up a lot of runway, but most made it.. There were two spectacular engine failures by 747s.. one which went past Windsor at 500ft - right alongside some colleagues and I in a car on the M4. When it later returned to land after dumping fuel I said: "You really frightened us as we were driving in".. a suitable cheery response came from the pilot but it landed me in the cack next day when, apparently, the flight became a discussion point in the Commons. Another 747 taking off, unusually, on 10L was taking up a lot of runway. Someone said: "Hope he doesn't lose one"... which he promptly did with a big bang and lots of flame, setting fire to a huge patch of grass undet the 28R approach lights!
There was a Polar departure off easterlies - Bromley, Hornchurch and BPK at 4000ft, climb when instructed by radar, etc. Produced a classic readback from a US pilot who simply replied "roger" to his clearance. I asked for a readback and got something like "Brookchurchparkhill at 4000ft...."

[GK430]

Midland 331 - what are you going to dream up next! I felt ancient enough with your Midland DC-9-15 thread:{
Surprised Heathrow Director has only taken you back to the 747-100 and the early P&W failures. Now I feel even more ancient as I was in a well known detention centre near Slough a long time ago:p.
I remember Clipper 1 or was it 2 and 101 or maybe 102 coming overhead when we were being instructed and just deafening the place. They were 707-320's. An then it would be followed by a Teeny Weeny 70 at about the same height - they had never reached an Alt let alone flight level. The VC.10's and Super 10's seemed quieter which was strange - or is it just that I have only heard Stage 2 707's and DC-8's opposed to pure RR Conways during the current century:D
I used to live in Copthorne and the old man used to depart to Nairobi at about 20:00 in the VC.10 - the house shook! He also flew 70's and hardly ever heard him. Came out of EGLL one night of 28L in a 707 and we were 2,000 by the end of the runway headed for Epsom....empty positioning flt:ok:
Oh the days of the Jump Seat!
Back to original; Seaboard DC-8's didn't climb that badly - until they got the stretch ones. National and no doubt HD remembers, were hilarious on the R/T when they started inbound from MIA - remember one guy asking what the strange black & white animals were when he was about 3 miles out on 10R. Great southern drawl accent.
The best climbers I reckon were the Cedar Jet and Swissair CV.990's, but they were never going that far. On a summer evening when routeing via MID, you could see the smoke almost to SFD:D Would not be appreciated in today's world ....but I'd give so much to see one of those fly again.
If down at Gatwick in those days, Russ Hill could be a scary place, but the best dep I saw was an American Flyers 727-100 off 09.....how the gear missed the nearest obstacle on the railway line still baffles me and he was going to JFK. (Think they had LR tanks). There were some great planes/airlines down there in those days; Ariana and SAM DC-6's, Capitol, TIA, Saturn, ONA, World, Pacific Western, Canadian Pacific-first time I got inside a stretch 8.....okay that's enough! Off 27 at Gatwick, when it was still a shorter runway than today, a lot 707's would line up on the runway heading 090 deg and the nosewheel cranked round.
By the time the 747's started, lessons got quiter and on four P & W's they managed to climb. One of the first take-offs I managed on the J/S with the old man in an early 74-200 with JT9D-7QS was sensational but we were light on fuel.
Now that I think about it, Vanguards didn't climb too well and were quite noisy.

[Midland 331]

>Vanguards didn't climb too well and were quite noisy

Yes, but what a glorious "basso profundo" noise... :-)

r

[GK430]

Four ear splitting Tynes - well they were when nearby on the ramp!!
Could have been worse....4 darts and your ears would definitely:ouch:

[Midland 331]

Castle Don. had both. Music!

A "Guardsvan" doing a full power ground run on the compass base for four hours could, however, get a little "wearing".

Thread drift. Sorry. Maybe time for a Merchantment/Vanguard thread.

So, I'm surmising that on a "power to weight" basis, the early generation of transcontinental aircraft were no worse than the first generation of widebodies when departing "well heavy". I picked up suggestions that they were worse.

I did hear from somewhere that some Pan Am 747s had problems making the SIDs.

(Hah! And after all this, a "Nigel" told me that early 340s could cause embarrassment)

r

[chiglet]

When I worked in PATCRU [remember that] in the early '70s we had "Clipper ONE out of FL130 abeam LIC...
"Clipper1, confirm 747"
"Ahhhh negative Sir, we are a 7zero7, but veeery heavy"
Well, it Was "Summer"
watp,iktch

[treadigraph]

GK, ah Gatwick in the Seventies... You can find me boring people to death :} on other threads here with my reminiscences, but they were great days! I can also remember World and TIA DC-10s taking off and scraping over the A23 and railway line at the eastern end and I believe at least one took a small souvenir back to LA with it, tangled in the main gear and formerly a fundamental part of the approach lights.

[GK430]

Now you mention it.....Think I had moved on by then, but there sure were some great planes. In my day in those parts, the first stretch 8 I saw was TIA, but got on an Empress to look round.
Going back to LHR, I think I recall seeing A.F. Breguet Deux Ponts - or whatever they were called. BKS Ambassadors.
Luxair Connies at LGW?
I can see a visit to the loft and having to dig out the spotter books:ugh:
At least I'll figure out who struggled to get over H.M.'s Castle at Windsor.

[shack]

Come on you fellow oldies like me, I would have thought you would have remembered the PA and TWA westcoast 707 departures off of 28R when we had to ring the Police to close the peritrack road so that the passing traffic did not get beheaded. Or the TCA DC8 sitting forlornly in the cabbage patch at the end of 28R------or maybe you are all new boys (I know two of you are), and yes there were Polar departures that went the wrong way round.

[Midland 331]

This was more what I was thinking about, and has been hinted at in other threads.

r

[pax britanica]

Interesting bit of nostalgia for me this thread .

I remember from my enthusiast/spotter days hearing Clipper flights cleared on as I recall ' a non standard polar departure crossing Epsom at 2000 and Biggin at 4000. I thought these were off 09R as it was because a heavy 747 turning for Epsom off 28L/R would probably have scared everyone in Staines to death but I may well be wrong. I also remember the same aircraft getting a 'non standard Lyneham west departure -to leave airways west of Lyneham'. Was that for the same reason

I assumed these were due to the early 747s being unable to climb as required by SIDs

I ddint know anyone used circling departures at LHR-some years later Iwas on an Air France 747-100 Combi departing beijing for Paris and that performed an enormous circle overhead the airport in order to gain height to cross the mountains north of the city-quite exciting .

On the subject of long trips South African had a Mondays only 747-100 departure direct to Jo'burg- pretty impressive if you stood at the departure end of 28L and watch them rotate just before the block 79? intersection

Happy days-at least if you lived near LHR and put up with the noise you could watch the fun in peace without fences and security

PB

[chevvron]

I happened to be radar monitor on the old Sector 6 (WOD - STU low level) when the first 747 departed Heathrow on a demo flight out to STU and back.
His first call to LATCC was 'I'm not gonna make 4 thousand by Woodley'; and this was with a light load!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Or the TCA DC8 sitting forlornly in the cabbage patch at the end of 28R------>>

Followed the greens, I s'pose Jack?? Guffaw... guffaw.....

[GK430]

Midland 331 - how about going the other way - or was it over the Pole (the man on 120 decimal 4 to advise), but Japanair DC-8's used to come over lower than just about anything else and then, still going west, the
VIASA DC-8's to Caracas never seemed to clear the Castle by a lot.
Pax Britannica - don't think there were Springbok 747-100's? Started with
-200's and if they did go Jo-burg non stop it sure was a long one as if memory serves me right, they could not overfly most of the African continent in those days and used to Tech stop in Las Palmas???? Until they got the 747SP?
Come on, what about the Russians, althought they had the IL-62 by then, they still used the TU-104 as well. What a great bomber. When did all outlying ATC units give up reporting eastern bloc departures to LATCC:=
It was funny seeing a crew member sat in the bomb aimers slot in
civilian 134's:(

[pax britanica]

GK 340

Yes I belive you are right about SAA not having 100s-perhaps they couldnt get off the ground at all at JNB-just joking. SAA did go direct just that one day a week the others stopped at Las Palmas or Ilha do Sal in the Cape Verdes Is.I doubt they made the northbound non stop though

[shack]

Followed the greens, I s'pose Jack?? Guffaw... guffaw.

Bren I'll smack you if you do not behave!!

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

I was in the control tower at Wycombe Air Park, booking out, when the PanAm 747 had the engine failure and started jettisoning. The controller, who was a Heathrow Tower controller on a 'day off' (Denis Cliffe perhaps?) glanced to the south, uttered an exclamation and grabbed the binoculars. We then watched it as it struggled along the Thames Valley, leaving a trail of fuel, vanishing in the direction of Greenham Common, and not seeming to gain much height. After an hour or so, to allow things to calm down, whoever it was then rang Heathrow to confirm that there had been a successful outcome.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Denis Cliffe perhaps?>>

Wow GALHI.. Shack and I know DC. Unfortunately I believe that he is no longer with us but I worked with him at Heathrow in the early 70s and Shack knew him well before me. I first met Denis when I worked at Blackbushe Tower in the mid-60s, again at the College at Bournemouth whilst on leave from Africa around 1969 and then when I went to Heathrow. He was the Deputy Unit Training Officer then..

[Loki]

Denis Cliffe eh?

Knew him at EGLL when I was an ATCA.....then again briefly at EGPF when he was my trainee. But he departed suddenly, and I was never sure what happened to him.

Speaking of slow climbers, I distinctly remember seing a strip for a Pan Am 707 to San Francisco...I wrote the Sid on the strip and thinking it a bit of a stretch, pointed it out to GMP. When the a/c called for start, he queried the destination, and got the reply " We`re Pan Am, we can go anywhere".

Everyone in the tower stopped what they were doing to watch it depart, it took up a lot of runway.

[Talkdownman]

"Wow GALHI.. Shack and I know DC. Unfortunately I believe that he is no longer with us but I worked with him at Heathrow in the early 70s and Shack knew him well before me. I first met Denis when I worked at Blackbushe Tower in the mid-60s, again at the College at Bournemouth whilst on leave from Africa around 1969 and then when I went to Heathrow. He was the Deputy Unit Training Officer then.."

I worked with DC somewhere but I am too old to remember. Gatwick?
er...Nurse......?

[The SSK]

I recall being told that the BOAC 707-436s that did LHR-SFO nonstops would be refuelled immediately on arrival at SFO because the wings were still cold and you could get more fuel into the tanks.

Not sure I ever believed it.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

They used to supply specially cold fuel to the Comet at Nairobi. The only problem being that in the event of a delay, the stuff then expanded in the hot East African sun and came out the vent pipes all over the ramp!

For one brief, glorious period, I was 'Speedbird Moscow.' My sole purpose was to do the Trans-Siberian flight planning for BA861, the Tokyo-bound and sole* 707 (G-AWHU) which plied the route. As the temperatures plummetted with the onset of winter, we found we could get an extra 1000kg in the 'full tanks' uplift which was invariably necessary.

*G-AWHU was ex Saturn Airways, and an oddball, in that it had a different flight system from the rest of the 707s and it had a different passenger cabin configuration.

[shack]

Scratching the old brain box I seem to remember that either PA or TWA (or both) would flight plan to Bangor Maine sometimes and then depending on what the howgosit said either continue to the West Coast or go someplace else. There were queries like "why do you want a Polar Dep. when you have filled to an East Coast destination"---"err that's what the dispatched filed"

[arem]

<<For one brief, glorious period, I was 'Speedbird Moscow.' My sole purpose was to do the Trans-Siberian flight planning for BA861, the Tokyo-bound and sole* 707 (G-AWHU) which plied the route. As the temperatures plummetted with the onset of winter, we found we could get an extra 1000kg in the 'full tanks' uplift which was invariably necessary.
*G-AWHU was ex Saturn Airways, and an oddball, in that it had a different flight system from the rest of the 707s and it had a different passenger cabin configuration.>>
Yes it was - but only basically to fly JFK-NAS/KIN Shuttles and LHR-JFK's - by the time it was operating SVO-HND's it was back in the retro BOAC config.
I dont think it was ever the 'sole' 707 on the svo-nrt route - my logbooks show HU only once out of 8 trips on that route up the end of '71 - the last few trips of that year were flown on XXZ and XXY - the two 336B's we had which were bought for just that route - because they were not C's they didnt have the cargo extras , so had a lower zero fuel weight - hence we could get more fuel and payload on
cheers
BTW G-ALHI was the last aircraft I flew in with my father - doing circuits at LGW with a Captain Martin checking him out!!. This was just before my starting at Hamble in 1964
arem

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

arem: oh dear! I've gone and hijacked a thread which reads EGLL "west Coast" Departures ... meanwhile over the snowy Steppes, one hundred and eighty degrees in the opposite direction ...! :ouch:

OK, my 'brief and glorious period' at SVO was from 24th September 1970 to 23rd December 1970. During that time, the only 707 I dealt with was 'HU. The 'special config' I referred to was the rear several rows of economy class being occupied by panniers containing the meals for the Trans-Siberian leg. One look at the Aeroflot flight kitchens was enough to decide that!

The eastbound flight number in fact was BA860, the westbound one was BA861. In BOAC the rule was even numbers eastbound and northbound i.e. EvEN.

[Musket90]

Remember the Flt Nos of the PA and TW from LL to LAX were 121 and 761. Also PA123 SEA and PA125 (I think to SFO). Often struggled to reach FL240 by Pole Hill.

[shack]

My post no.26 I was obviously having a "senior moment" and thinking about another happening, the West Coast trips were quite often flight planned to Great Falls Montana and then continued to KSFO if all was well. Sorry.