Logging PIC

[flying_flick]

I have a question about whether you can log PIC in this scenario:

I am currently flying right seat of a turbine. On every flight I do every aspect of the flight. Engine start, Takeoff, In flight, Radios, Navaids, Landing, Shutdown. The pilot in the left seat in not in command, rather he is there only for insurance reasons.

Can this be considered as PIC as I feel I am in full command of the aircraft?:ok:

Thanks Flick

[404 Titan]

Who has your company officially appointed as the commander of the flight? What is the guy in the left seat logging? Remember only one person can log command and it’s the person the company has appointed as the commander.

[flying_flick]

The guy in the left hand seat has thousands of hours and doesn't bother logging anymore. He will fly the odd flight to stay current which I do not log. He also owns the small company and there is nothing official saying who is and isnt in command.

[stillalbatross]

Unless you are giving command training or a type endorsement wouldn't you need to be left seat. Is that aircraft certified 2 crew or SP/IFR?

[rmcdonal]

Sounds like you could probably log ICUS. Left or right seat doesn't matter unless the ops manual states it must be flown from a particular side.
Only other thing to think of is it a multi-crew aircraft?
By the sound of it The guy in the left hand seat has thousands of hours and doesn't bother logging anymore. this is not a commercial op?

[3 Holer]

.......there is nothing official saying who is and isnt in command.
CAR Reg 224 Pilot in Command
(1) For each flight the operator shall designate one pilot to act as pilot in command
Penalty: 5 penalty units.
The same reg. then goes on to define the responsibilities of the PIC.
If you refer to Jepp. ATC AU-611 you will also note a box for the name of the PIC for flight planning purposes. This is who ATC will contact if there is an incident or accident.
andThe guy in the left hand seat has thousands of hours and doesn't bother logging anymore.....
You should make your mate aware of this (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm) and advise him to review CAR 5.51.

[bentandtwisted]

3 Holer has hit the nail on the head:ok:

[flying_flick]

Its a commercial op but all done as local VFR so no flight planning required besides viewing the weather. So if the pilot in the left hand seat (also the operator) says I am flying in command then I can log PIC?

Operation is overseas and the requirement here is that you only need to log hours to keep you current. However since I am Australian and building hours with a hope of returning home in the not too distant future I want to log every hour possible.

[AerocatS2A]

You say the other chap is there due to an insurance requirement. What is the requirement? If they require that this guy be in command then you could only possibly log ICUS.

What happens if you crash? Who will the company say was the captain? What happens if you land without a clearance? Who would take responsibility when things go wrong?

The answer to those questions should lead you to whether or not you can log PiC.

[Yon Garde]

What's the aircraft type?

[Defenestrator]

What countries rules are you operating under? If it's FAA and part 91 ops you can log P1 on all flown sectors.

D

[Icarus53]

This is one of the main differences between flying in Oz and the US - it was so much easier (not necessarily better) when you just had to remember "if you are rated/licenced for the aircraft type and the operation and you were the sole manipulator of the controls during the flight, you can log PIC". I remember several flights when I still had a PPL in the US when an instructor would acompany me to fulfil insurance requirements (needed 200+ hours), but I could still log PIC and had to do everything associated with the flight.

Sadly nobody seems to think this a good idea on this side of the Pacific. Hence every time you take a check flight with an instructor in order to fulfil the insurance requirements to hire the aircraft for a joy flight, you will alternately get told to log as ICUS or Dual, depending which day of the week it is.

The bottom line here has to be who the operator (I presume there is an AOC involved somewhere in all of this???) designates as PIC, and I don't think the insurance company is going to swallow that there is one PIC for CAR purposes and another under the requirements of the policy. ICUS a very real possibility?

[flying_flick]

Thanks Icarus and Defenestrator, I am in the US, so looks like I will be logging PIC.

[slice]

Icarus53 - just out of interest - when you were logging PIC on flights with the instructor along as the insurance requirement, what was the instructor logging ?

Presumably he would be required to log something for flight and duty limitations ?

[Icarus53]

That's a good question - back then I didn't have enough knowledge to worry about that sort of thing. I logged what I was told I was allowed to log. Duty time was limited by the wallet as far as I could tell.

It just seemed to me that the PIC was less a legal requirement and more a recognition of who was actually flying the plane.

Having since looked up the FAR/AIM, it quite clearly states that "a recreational,private or commercial pilot may log PIC only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" (FAR 61.51(e)).

On the other hand an authorised instructor may only log PIC when acting as an authorised instructor. I suspect therefore that the guy flying in the left hand seat for those couple of times the insurance required it, he should not have logged the flight time at all, as there was no legal requirement for him to be on the flight or manipulate the controls.

Although I can't see any Oz instructors going for that, I still think it sucks if I want to do a flyaway with the Mrs and need to demonstrate 3 landings for the company, I can't log PIC even though the instructor is really only providing ballast.

My head hurts.

[rmcdonal]

There is still a slight difference between flying single pilot and having the support of knowing that if something bad happens that the other guy "Just along for the ride" is qualified to help. Isn't that why Aus has ICUS? So you can tell the difference between the 2.

[gas-chamber]

F.F. you might "feel" that you are in command, but if the guy in the left seat is in a position to over ride you or any decision you may make that he doesn't like, HE is the real PIC. As the owner with so many hours he no longer bothers to log them, it would seem that HE knows who is REALLY going to call the shots if need be.
You can manipulate the regulations all you like to suit your purposes and pad out your logbook, but the the question I would ask at your job interview would be - was all that RHS flying instructing or checking? No? Then how come you lay claim to all that PIC time? Hmmmm. In my view, claiming ICUS with a signature from the boss alongside each log entry would be bending the truth a little less and be less likely to ring some future chief pilot's alarm bells.

[Defenestrator]

You can manipulate the regulations all you like to suit your purposes and pad out your logbook..........blah,blah,blah.
The "regulations", as you put it, clearly state that you CAN log P1 under part 91 operations if you are the flying pilot in the right seat. Go open a book know-all.
D:ugh:

[gas-chamber]

I don't claim to know it all, just a bit about recruitment and enough to spot a rigged logbook at 20 paces. You can't have two pilots in command simultaneously, regardless of what they may claim. PIC versus ICUS etc is seen for what it really is in this part of the world. Go and look at the dictionary definition of 'command' if you doubt.
Part 91? WTFIT? Is it here in Oz already? I am assuming that the original question was asked with relevance to the local situation, not what prevails in the USA or Europe.

[flying_flick]

To clear it up. I am an aussie pilot hoping to return home in the not too distant future, however I am currently flying in the US of A. Didnt realise that there was such a difference in the logging rules between the two countries. If anything this should have been posted in the American forum, just so use to posting in these forums.

My bad but thanks for the help.

From what I have gathered under FAA (USA) regs I can log PIC as I am the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight, however if I was back home in Australia I wouldnt be able to log command rather I would log ICUS.

[Defenestrator]

Part 91? WTFIT? Is it here in Oz already? I am assuming that the original question was asked with relevance to the local situation, not what prevails in the USA or Europe.
However since I am Australian and building hours with a hope of returning home in the not too distant future I want to log every hour possible.
Clears it up. Bit of an RTQ sort of situation.
D