Rogerson Kratos huge repair costs [Archive]

Dick Smith

14th Feb 2007, 01:17

One of the Rogerson Kratos EFIS displays in my 380 hour TT Agusta A109E helicopter is faulty. It is Part Number 160E015-3, Serial Number 02070429. The display works, but the AC fuse to it blows. From my knowledge of electronics it is probably a wire that has shorted out or a semiconductor that has gone.

In contacting Rogerson Kratos they have said that the minimum repair cost will be USD $15,000 (AUD $19,250) and it could be USD $29,000 (AUD $37,200). This seems an incredible figure.

Has anyone else had experience with huge costs for Rogerson Kratos repairs? I can see why Agusta have now changed to Astronautics displays.

Does anyone know if there is an independent organisation who can repair these units for a reasonable price?

gulliBell

14th Feb 2007, 03:31

Can't help with the question, but was wondering doesn't a new helicopter come with a 1,000 hour warranty?

22clipper

14th Feb 2007, 05:42

I repaired the depth sounder on my neighbours boat the other day Dick. Flavour of the month in gizmos designed to run in a battery/alternator environment is a fast semi to ground just after the fuse. The semi shorts on transients at 4 times the nominal rail voltage & pops the fuse.

Most up market avionice these days have a tamper seal so opening them to replace the 50c shunt diode voids the warranty. Nice earner for the manufacturer though, wish I had a product like that in my inventory! If warranty isn't an issue then it might be worth asking around the on airfield avoinics shops, can't hurt to have a look inside & then if you do have to buy a new one then at least you've got a repaired spare?

I remember an R44 owner's comment a decade ago when I bought my little R22. "I want you to paint a big bulls eye on your wallet", he said & that's what its been like these last ten years.

PS Tried to get a meal at Capella the other day but guest only policy. Have a word to that offspring re exemptions for old RotorHeads will ya?

Salusa

14th Feb 2007, 11:48

I love it how some OEM's/Repair Stations quote a minimum repair cost before they even know whats wrong with a unit. Just goes to show that they repair/overhaul by replacement rather than use some technical judgement and ability.

Dont know nothing about A109E, but can you swap the EFIS displays over just to confirm the fault lies within the unit not 'outside' it?

charron

14th Feb 2007, 19:36

Rogerson Kratos had a reputation of being cranky and expensive to maintain. Anybody maintaining Bell 430's seemed to think so. I thought is was a Bell thing with the RK system and IIDS on the 430 burning up our maintenance budget, along with the LCD engine instruments on the 407 that also had poor reliability and were astronomically expensive.

Funny when you think the same technology in the consumer world seems to last forever.

charon

NickLappos

14th Feb 2007, 23:44

I do recall that Sikorsky teamed with RK for the upgraded S76 with the IIDS, and then dropped them after serious studies by the avionics experts showed serious deficiencies in the basic design and construction of the boards and boxes. It seems that basic industry standards for robustness were simply not followed, so that the failure potential was very high, especially in a vibratory environment. I have no idea if the later RK boxes were improved.

Dick Smith

15th Feb 2007, 00:01

GulliBell, the helicopter has only done 380 hours but it is now over 4 years old and I understand it is out of warranty.

22clipper, sorry about the problems with Capella. My wife and I tried to book in there but it is booked out until about 2020 – and that is just to stay, let alone to have a meal. My suggestion is that you grab a couple of sandwiches and sit on their verandah! That way you can get the view and not have to pay for the meal.

Salusa, yes we have swapped the units around and it is quite clear that one unit is faulty.

Charron, I’m getting similar claims in relation to Rogerson Kratos. This could be why Agusta has now changed to Astronautics displays. I think I will start a campaign explaining just how Rogerson Kratos operates. I understand they will not release any circuits or maintenance information at all – so everything must go to them at these extraordinary prices.

Can you imagine if they pull the unit apart and find there is a minor fault that takes 10 minutes to fix, they are going to charge me US $15,000? That is a pretty good labour rate.

Does anyone know of any modern helicopters which use Rogerson Kratos equipment? Does the new Bell or have they now moved to a better company’s product?

chuckolamofola

15th Feb 2007, 20:51

http://www.rogersonkratos.com/iids.html

According to their web site they are on the following:
ON-BOARD EXPERIENCE: Bell 412, Bell 427, Bell 430 Sikorsky S76, Canadair CL-415, CASA 212, CASA 235, CASA 295, Zeppelin

I have heard of a lot of failures on the Bell 430 system early on, don't know if they have overcome that shortcoming or not. According to their press release Bell will also put it into the 429.

I think they usually display at HeliExpo, perhaps if you are going you can find out the real deal face to face. Their minimum price sounds high, as it really sounds more like an exchange price than a minimum labor charge.

Esterline in the UK claim to be an OEM warranty repair station. Perhaps they work on these items too:

http://www.muirheadaerospace.com/avionics/repair.stm

Good Luck,

Chuck

NickLappos

15th Feb 2007, 21:38

"On board experience" of Sikorsky S76 was when they were tested, certified and then thrown off. Nicely phrased "on board experience!"

gulliBell

15th Feb 2007, 23:01

Question for NickLappos, didn't RogersonKratos IIDS make its way onto production S76C+ models at some stage? (replacing the IIDS on early production C-model machines by another supplier?).

toolguy

16th Feb 2007, 11:44

The S76C+ and now C++ use a Parker/Gull IIDS. :}

NickLappos

16th Feb 2007, 14:40

toolguy,
That's right. The RK IIDS was fully developed and then tossed prior to production for reliability reasons. Then the Parker/Gull was developed and used. I do not believe the RK was ever reintroduced.

Dick Smith

21st Feb 2007, 04:09

Charron, you state:

Rogerson Kratos had a reputation of being cranky and expensive to maintain. NickLappos, you mention how the Rogerson Kratos IIDS was not used in the Sikorsky S76 because of “reliability reasons”.

This is why PPRuNe is so important – that we give publicity to the true situation. I have now managed to receive some comparison quotes for servicing similar equipment. As stated before, the Rogerson Kratos cost to service the unit is between US $15,000 and US $29,000.

Astronautics say they charge US $1,500 to pull down and test the unit, then quote for the repair. The typical repair costs in total (including the initial $1,500) are around US $3,000 to US $4,000.

The Garmin G1000 has a GDU1040 display which is far larger and would appear to be more complex than the Rogerson Kratos unit. It has a flat repair rate of US $1,200.

Chelton charges a US $75 per hour shop rate and a full exchange unit is US $8,000.

My advice at the present time is not to touch an aircraft with Rogerson Kratos equipment until we can find out all the information. I have written to the Director of Sales at Rogerson Kratos, Mr Martin Hamilton, to ask him if he could release the technical information so another organisation could repair the unit. It is interesting that I have not received a reply as yet and I sent the email 6 days ago.

Let’s keep this going on PPRuNe until we can find out the true situation in relation to the extremely high Rogerson Kratos repair costs. If the costs are this high I would imagine aircraft owners would avoid aircraft with their equipment.

noexcessivecranking

21st Feb 2007, 07:58

How refreshing, for Dick Smith to post a topic and not get flamed within the first 10 replies! :D

Seriously, it's been informative and useful reading this thread, cheers Mr Smith! :ok:

Dick Smith

21st Feb 2007, 22:47

I have just received a reply from Martin Hamilton and he has advised me that the CEO, Michael Rogerson, is personally looking into it and they have sent my note to the service department.

Wouldn’t it be great if Rogerson Kratos can somehow get their service costs down to a market level? Then we will all be great supporters.

It is interesting. I’ve had the helicopter for four years and this is the first fault I have had with the Rogerson Kratos equipment – so from the sound of it their early faults have been fixed.

RAC

23rd Feb 2007, 14:02

Rogerson Kratos regrets any customer dissatisfaction.

Mr. Smith is right in wanting to pay as little as possible for repairs. He has gone further than most, but that also is his right.

At Rogerson Kratos, we believe OEM’s have a responsibility and an FAA obligation to do more than just tear down and troubleshoot. Quality requirements and engineering root cause efforts add many hours to a return’s efforts.

So, while we are confident we are competitive with our thousands of different products flying in every aviation segment, we want to always improve our services and products.

Therefore, that great American sport of company bashing is welcome. At the NBAA show next week, I welcome anyone to come by and see me to make suggestions on how we can do better. You might also consider seeing the chairman of other companies at the same time to help them. Hope they see you.

Nick Lappos is a pilot’s pilot whom we respect very much. This doesn’t mean he always has his business facts right. His old boss, Gerry Tobias, also managed Kratos as a senior executive. I suggest he check his facts with him.

Rogerson Kratos is honored to be part of the helicopter community and will make every effort to work with our customers to improve safety, give greater value, and keep listening to our ultimate customers, those who fly the equipment.

Sincerely,

Michael Rogerson
Chairman
Rogerson Kratos

NickLappos

23rd Feb 2007, 17:43

So, RAC, what is the cost to fix the display? You forgot to mention it.

I know my facts, BTW, I lived thru the case I mentioned. Why don't you dispute them here and now?

BTW, Gerry Tobias is a fine fellow and a friend, and I for one liked the R-K displays, myself.

Aesir

23rd Feb 2007, 19:11

The company says:
Therefore, that great American sport of company bashing is welcome.

The customer says:
In contacting Rogerson Kratos they have said that the minimum repair cost will be USD $15,000 (AUD $19,250) and it could be USD $29,000 (AUD $37,200).

Hmm.. doesn´t seem like "bashing" to me! Just fix the mans display for reasonable price.

Encyclo

23rd Feb 2007, 20:41

Too bad M.R. will be at NBAA next week :ugh:

He could have met some customers at HAI :}

bellsux

23rd Feb 2007, 23:47

Rogerson Kratos are not the only ones charging like a bull for avionics.. for example last year I had to deal with Honeywell with the avionic repairs for our companies Citation X jet. Multi Function Display USD $15000, Inertial Reference Unit USD $22000, Radar (noisy in operation) quoted USD $40000). If you want the item repaired be prepared for a wait as it is their best interest to do exchange because (depending on the item) some of the exchange prices are close to outright purchase.

Not forgetting Cessna, for them to change the DVD player as the Citation X comes with two standard Zone 1 (USA) DVD's to change it to a multizone DVD it costs USD $25000.

You won't get a sympathetic hearing from them either as the customers on parts plans, airlines and the mega rich are more than happy to pay the asking prices.

Salusa

24th Feb 2007, 00:27

Dont hold me to it, but I have been told (from a very respectable FAA repair shop) that all USA OEM's are 'obliged' to release technical service data on any component installed onto a FAA Type Certified aircraft, upon request of the registered owner.

It may be BS, but worth a thought......

And with all due respect to RAC, you are taking the p**s.:)

$15k before you even know what the problem is?!!

If you are at HAI next week, I will be more than happy to come by your booth and chat over a beer. Im sure a few more blokes here will tag along as well.

With your rates you should be able to buy a few:)

Best regards,

Salusa

ayaarr

24th Feb 2007, 11:20

Not forgetting Cessna, for them to change the DVD player as the Citation X comes with two standard Zone 1 (USA) DVD's to change it to a multizone DVD it costs USD $25000.

Its not too difficult to bypass the zone or region controls on any DVD or CD player.
Or copy the movies you have already bought onto another disc so there is no restrictions on them
All the information and software to do it no cost is readily available on the net

Avnx EO

25th Feb 2007, 05:11

Someone once told me "there is no such thing as a good avionics supplier. You just have to pick between the best of the bad ones." I'm sure that applies to a lot of things.

But after 25 years in the avionics design business, I can tell you the cost of things is never what you think it should be. And typically people direct there ire at the wrong folks. Especially when it comes to custom-specified avionics that is type certified with the aircraft, it is often more an issue of the relationship with the helicopter manufacturer, and the arrangement under which it was developed.

It's not the same thing when it's a Garmin radio, or a Honeywell radar with thousands in the field. Then it's their design, their control of product warranty and improvements, their TSO, and their support.

When you design specialized equipment to an aircraft manufacturer's spec for a production volume of 10 or 15 aircraft a year.... When the equipment is so custom to that aircraft that it doesn't go any other place.... When the aircraft manufacturer doesn't bother to pony up or otherwise establish agreements to help maintain spares inventory or repair facilities... Then the avionics manufacturer often gets left holding the "public relations" bag when the end user comes looking for repairs or replacements. And the aircraft manufacturer's are often all too happy to let the blame slide there. When they have to literally re-start up the production line to build a spare card for this low-volume model. Then you can imagine what it does to the cost. Go ask an MD-900 owner how long it takes or what it costs to repair an IIDS from cmc electronics. Is that cmc's fault or MD's?

Avnx EO

RAC

26th Feb 2007, 14:15

So Nick, my responsibilities include getting feedback from customers and operators.

And like you, a lot of S76 operators like the Kratos displays.

As you know, some of the displays we are talking about here have been successfully flying for more than 10 years. Now, Sikorsky and Kratos recently joined together in a program to keep displays flying at least another 10 years with updated LCD’s. Go figure.

As for repair costs, ask your buddies at HSI. You, and the operators will be pleased.

See you all at the HAI show.

Brian Abraham

27th Feb 2007, 04:22

RAC. Have a talk with Esso in Oz. I dont think you will find they are very happy at all with the Kratos in the 76.

Dick Smith

1st Mar 2007, 22:27

Is anyone game to call in to the Rogerson Kratos stand at the HAI Heli-Expo and ask the Chairman Michael Rogerson whether Rogerson Kratos can become more competitive in relation to their repair costs?

Remember, Aesir said:

Hmm.. doesn´t seem like "bashing" to me! Just fix the mans display for reasonable price. I have been asked to loan my helicopter for display at the Australian International Airshow at Avalon in Australia. At the moment it has a hole in the dashboard. I would like to get that fixed.

22clipper

2nd Mar 2007, 00:32

The ties that bind Dick! I look across the yawning financial chasm that separates us & I realise that a black hole in the panel looks & feels the same no matter where you are in the pecking order.

I know a pilot so disheartened by a missing gauge that he fitted a photograph of same over the gap till the item was repaired. The devil in me has some humdinger suggestions for wording on a placard you could use to fill the void but my characteristic restraint is winning out.

Hope the chopper God's smile on ya & circumstances see your bird with a fully populated suite of displays come Avalon.