Pilot Recruiting

[Uncle Jestar]

I have been in this industry for 26 years now and and would be reluctant to reccomend it to other people now. Why? Do it through GA and pay $100K and then get paid $40/year with no assistance from the government, though almost every other proffession gets assistance such as the HECS scheme.
After a couple of years, you get into a airline that charges you another $35K for the privilege of working for them. :eek: Then every 3-4 months you have some sort of major check such as sim/line/medical that can potentially end your expensive carreer!! Most baggage handlers earn far more than the F/O sitting up there in that nice shiney aircraft. Most Met bus drivers earn $60K/year with very little overtime. Young people often ask me what its like doing what I do and I tell them its the best job in the world but to get there now will require exteme dedication and finances, as compared to other jobs out there. Many senior pilots are pouring huge amounts of money into their super funds because come July-2007, they can retire with a huge untaxed super payout. As many as 350 senior Captains will retire this year which will be great for existing pilots wanting to move up the slippery pole. CASA issued about 960 CPL's last year and only 180 were to Australian national pilots. Almost every company is recuiting and with known orders for extra aircraft and new airlines starting such as Tiger and Skyairworld it is estimated that this will require another extra 400 Pilots!!:hmm: Unless entry conditions change, where will these people come from when it is now so competive from other trades and proffessions?

[Lasiorhinus]

Why is it that all the people on the board who advise AGAINST pursuing a career as a pilot, are already pilots of a couple of decades experience?

:}

[JAYTO]

When I learnt to fly in the early 90's we had 11 people on my course. There are only 2 of us still flying today. Thats approx 20% success rate of staying in the industry. Back then there was no advertised jobs as there are today and it was near impossible to find that first job and progress up the ladder.
Maybe these days, with the rumoured small amount of licences being issued, it may not be a matter of a pilot shortage just a higher percentage of starters remaining in the game......Food for thought.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

So 2p2d......another lost to the mining boom??? Tell us more. Via PM if need be.

Oh, and well done for embracing the need for change so brazenly! :D

Cheers,

RFKB

[Howard Hughes]

Why is it that all the people on the board who advise AGAINST pursuing a career as a pilot, are already pilots of a couple of decades experience?

Well I only have one decade of experience and I would say to anyone who asks, to "go for it", but just be aware of what you are getting yourself into.

$100k? It cost me close to $50k 20 years ago, so it hasn't really gone up that much! Imagine if I had invested that money 20 years ago, but that's not what it's all about is it?

I only have one piece of advice for anyone starting out, make sure you have a back up plan, took me 20 years to work that one out, now I finally have a back up plan I probably don't need it, but it's always good to have just in case...;)

Last week I was offered a job that pays $120, 000 a year (on the job training)- only because of my highschool subjects I chose to study.
Hell, I'm gonna take it.
2pissed2drive, once you get some coin in the bank, you'll be baaaaack!;)

[Mstr Caution]

Why? Do it through GA and pay $100K and then get paid $40/year with no assistance from the government, though almost every other proffession gets assistance such as the HECS scheme.



Until there's are supply problem getting pilots then "hey presto", HECS schemes materialise. Watch this space. :8

[Howard Hughes]

then "hey presto", HECS schemes materialise. Watch this space.
I hope it's gonna be retrospective...;)

[The Bunglerat]

I find it ironic that when I used to have a passion for flying (bordering on obsession), I was always frustrated at my perceived lack of progression in the industry. When friends were moving on to fly turbo-props and jets, I was still languishing in GA, flying clapped out pistons (single and twin), desperately hoping to join my compatriots up in the flight levels - and consequently becoming even more disheartened at my lack of progress.
When I finally stopped giving a damn and treating it as "just another job," all of a sudden I found myself achieving all the things I'd been aiming for: Turbine experience, getting into a major airline, etc. The sad part is that after all the years of hard slog and putting up with industry crap, it's finally worn me down to the point where I now have what many would perceive to be the "dream job," but I have very little passion left for it. Granted, things could be a lot worse and I could be back in a factory or stacking shelves - but the simple fact is that if I walked away from aviation tomorrow, I don't think I'd miss it as much as I used to think I would. I don't dislike what I do, it's just not the holy grail I thought it would be - and perhaps the only reason I'm still in the game at all is because I've been doing it for so long now, I don't know what else I would do in its absence.

[2p!ssed2drive]

Bunglerat.

Word my friend.... WORD.

:ok:

[PA39]

Aviation is a hard industry. Its the law of the jungle where only the strong survive. (35 yrs experience).

[Chimbu chuckles]

I would suggest part of the problem now is the 'I want it all NOW' attitude of most young people today...and I say that as a parent.

When I started learning to fly 27 years ago I had no expectation of having a CPL inside of about 3 years...I think it took closer to 4 in the end. Because I didn't have a loan hanging over my head I was not terribly concerned about much of anything and could just enjoy life.

There were VERY few jobs around in the mid 80s so I went to PNG...got a job...bought a beat up old Suzuki jeep for next to nothing and flew my arse off for $16k gross + housing...and saved PNGK4k while still drinking my fair share of beer and generally having a great time...That 4k converted to AUD$7k+ in those days so paid cash for my Instrument rating (think it was 3.5k) and had a huge holiday and then went back to PNG with not a lot left over...first year Talair pay was slightly less than the previous years wages at Simbu aviation but it didn't really worry me too much...and the pay ramped up every year after that to something akin to a 60K package after about 18 mths when I went onto the Twin Otter and 6 mths later onto the Bandit. I spent best part of 9 years in GA and had a ball...even bought a little house back in Oz.

Loading yourselves up with debt and then expecting to get into an airline inside 4 yrs is an unreasonable expectation...in fact it is just plain stupid...being 'shattered' and leaving the industry bitter when it doesn't happen that way...and then slagging off the industry is just blame shifting. Another common trait of many young people.."It's not my fault because..."

I have everything. Ie.. CPL. ME-CIR. ATPL subjects. Night VFR.

Everything except the drive required.

My parents have cut the money supply off.

Well what can i say:ugh:

[WynSock]

"My Parents have cut the money supply off."

:eek:

Oh well, better just give up then.

[KRUSTY 34]

Whoahh!

2p!ssed2drive,

Let me get this straight?

23 years old, 1200 hours, all the quals.

notwithstanding it has always been a tough game, the world is at your feet my friend.

If you cannot see that, then it truely is time for you to get out!

[2p!ssed2drive]

I have been in this industry for 26 years now and and would be reluctant to reccomend it to other people now.

After a couple of years, you get into a airline that charges you another $35K for the privilege of working for them. Then every 3-4 months you have some sort of major check such as sim/line/medical that can potentially end your expensive carreer!

The sad part is that after all the years of hard slog and putting up with industry crap, it's finally worn me down to the point where I now have what many would perceive to be the "dream job," but I have very little passion left for it.

... and I do sincerely apologize for mentioning that my parents have cut the money supply off. I only said that as I hung around with people up north who's "mummy and daddy" were buying them 4wd's and going as far as paying their rent. I had a second job up north and still couldn't afford to get by.

Mr Chimbu, I commend you on your great efforts. and I drove around in a beat up VW beatle!

this thread is about reccomending it to other people

could we please get back to the topic. Sorry for the hijack - was just sharing my experience and know what he's saying.

[Kelly Hopper]

Can I be rather contentious here?
I am a European pilot who. other than after 9/11 has always found work and see my career getting better year on year. I also have the right to live and work in Australia. For many years I have harboured a desire to live and work in your country but have now been forced to give up on the idea. Why?
What I have witnessed in Australia are out of date working practices generally and prejudice against anyone from overseas particulary in aviation.
It is like Europe 25 years ago!
Many of your countrymen have realised this and that is why there are so many ossie pilots working in Europe now.
I feel for anyone trying to get on in life and finding so many obstacles but maybe a good look at your own country's attitude and a realisation that we now live in 2007 not 1957 wouldn't go amiss!
Only then will conditions and opportunities inprove for everyone.:rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

Kelly

What you don't realise that in Australia the entry requirements for airlines are about 5 times higher than what they are in Europe and you do not walk out of a flying school into a 737. It would take you in the vicinity of 4 years after you have completed your training to be eligible for regional airlines flying Dash 8's or Brazs assuming that you got a job in year one. This time is often spent in remote areas flying old aircraft in very hot conditions. It is a tough game, 40 000' Thunderstorms, drum refuelling (if you're unlucky), hard nose bosses and clients, old aircraft etc etc

What the guys on this thread are talking about is how you spend a ridiculous amount of money for your license only to then go through hell to get a airline job. The sacrifices made, the money spent, some may argue is not worth it. Not to mention the effect of LCC on wages and conditions. In this country LCC are the end of your career not the first job you get out of flying school.

Not quite sure what you mean by outdated work practices?? Just because we have high requirements doesn't necessarily make them out dated.

I would be very suprised if you have even gone through half of the BS that is being discussed on this thread.

[34R]

I guess you really need to examine your motivation for becoming a pilot in the first place.

Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone purely financially driven. No. I say that more on a reflection of initial outlay, ongoing costs and below standard wages generally across the board.

Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone that has a chance to have a passion as a career. Absolutely.

I started my training quite late in life, 30, and knew I'd be pretty well up against it from the start. I knew what state the industry was in, the generally below par conditions and the fact I was going to be away from all things comfortable for a long time. Once I was a part of it I don't think I could have stuck with it if I didn't genuinely love what I was doing, and keep that end goal in sight.

The end goal is quite different for lots of people. Mine was to end up in an airline. Four years after I gained my CPL I got that chance. I know that is a ridiculously short amount of time, and I am quite humbled to know that many aviators spent or are spending two or three times that amount of time in GA.

When I chose to chase this dream, I risked pretty well everything I had worked for up to that point. I left a well paid career, refinanced a unit i hardly owned, evaporated any financial security I had established for myself and farewelled all that were close to me......Can't say I'd recommend that to too many people!! But, my end goal was reached and I can't put into words what that means, and that is a feeling I would recommend to anyone.

[Aussie]

Kelly, did you get a start in Aus, or straight into it from Europe?

[goddamit]

When I started in the very early 90's I funded myself(no parents funding me). I was the only one not getting everything paid for!(just a bank loan guarantor). Yes up until 5 years ago 100K was the total all up bill. It took 10 years to get to the majors. Yes its worth it in the end & my finances are starting to overtake others(finally). People I know who started for the money never made it. You must be clever, passionate & aggressive with your career path to make it. As someone previously said if mummy & daddy stop the funds, clearly flying isn't for you. I worked as a cabbie for two years during my full time flying training(ie 6 hrs a day after work) to survive when I was 19. Unfortunately generation 'Y' does have a 'I want it now' attitude. Also a lot of young people today don't understand what doing it 'hard' is really about. Its more than moving out of home. The really motivated & successful will do it tough but they usually do make it in the end.
Its as hard today as it was 20 yrs ago(just for slightly different reasons)

Just my 2 cents worth.

[freddyKrueger]

I feel for anyone trying to get on in life and finding so many obstacles but maybe a good look at your own country's attitude and a realisation that we now live in 2007 not 1957 wouldn't go amiss!Return the favour. Anyone with a parent or grandparent born in the UK automatically has a right of abode (and work in the UK). Though it doesn't directly give you an EU right to work, it can be converted later on. If you chose your parents wisely there are a lot of opportunities. Why put up with the crap if you can avoid it.
UK ancestory link HERE (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1018721067684)

When I chose to chase this dream, I risked pretty well everything I had worked for up to that point. I left a well paid career, refinanced a unit i hardly owned, evaporated any financial security I had established for myself and farewelled all that were close to me......
The shareholders commend your attitude. I suspect there are not many young people willing to sacrifice their life to enrich others. Everyone else involved in the industry treats like it is, just a business, perhap its time more pilots did too. ...Perhaps they have judging by the question being asked by the original poster.

[hoss]

Europe versus Australia.

Lets start with safety, how many people have been killed in airline crashes in the last decade in Europe?...........Now, how many have been killed in Australia?............

If you want to go on lets talk about standards!

[Kelly Hopper]

Hi Neville.
Yes I take your points but I have been in this industry 25 years now and flying for 23. I have seen my career go from pistons to jets to airlines to corporate and beyond, and all in Europe. There are opportunities here if you are prepared to be flexible.
Not in Australia though. Having found that unless you are born Ozzie, trained Ozzie and have a lot of Ozzie mates in the right places I prefer to stay this side of the planet.
How come a country so big only has 2 major players? There are countries here the size of the ACT with more airlines!
''Out of date working practices.'' Mainly unions. Far to powerful in Oz and only too keen to cause trouble. As I said, this is what we had in Europe in the 70's and it just brought us down. I am not anti-union, Just anti-abuse of their power. Look what happened to Ansett NZ. Destroyed by unions.

Aussie.
Started here, and guess I'll finish here.

Hoss.
One simple way to make flying safe............. stay on the ground!

[Jet_A_Knight]

Kelly,

Countries in Europe the size of the ACT have 14million people population.

And those airlines, you mean like SABENA, SWISS etc ??:8

I think the issue of the airline market in Europe has more to do with economies of scale, rather than 'antiquated union practices' ...that is way over simplistic.

The reality is in an area roughly the size of Australia, there is in excess of 600million people as opposed to 20 million.

[DirkRose]

Oh boy....

2pissed2drive, I don't often make comments to a thread but when I read rubbish like this I just can't help myself! maybe Ive got you figured wrong, but I only have your post to work on!

You are kidding right? You are 23 years old, have barely any hours and are giving up? Your parents must be happy right, planning to pay them back I hope!? You are extremely lucky to have had parents who worked their asses off and made sacrifices to finance, what they thought, was their sons dream in Life. Turns out, after 70k+ he decides it was all just to hard. But hey, you tried for 2 years right, Im sure that was worth your mum and dad giving up on that BMW theyve always wanted or the earlier retirement they could have had!

What I can't understand is that you are starting out in a time where the airline industry is booming! The FOs in airlines now started their careers with prospects very different from those you have now. All that your comments show is that you just don't enjoy flying. I winged non stop during my 6 years in GA, what a Shole I live in etc! But thats part of aviation, secretely I loved every minute of it! So if you really would prefer to work in a mine or behind a desk for the rest of your life then go ahead, its one less competitor for those who truly enjoy flying. One question though, you do know that you won't be starting as managing director when you start your new job right? You will have to work your way up the ladder everywhere!

Anyway.....as for a high TER making you smart (as you mentioned several times) I doubt it. I had a TER of 96, its based on a smart choice of subjects, perhaps an extra one two for a few extra points and most importantly having NO LIFE! I knew I wanted to be a pilot and in Yr 9 I found out about a new aviation degree course. Aparently the cutoff grade for the course was a TER of 90%, so I studied my butt off for 3 years. Its the result of hard work and its a score anyone can achieve if they have a reason to.

Turns out I couldve saved myself the effort since all the interview panel wanted to know is how I would finance the training :O welcome to GA!

Anyhoo....theres my rant

DR

[Joker89]

Some good posts in this thread.

I am 27 and about to leave a 6 fig salary to Join the RAAF, Obviously Money in not the motivator, Money may make some people happy, but not me. I have seen my salary grow a lot in the 5 years I have been in my current industry but has it ever influenced my level of enjoyment from my work.... Never.

I feel very fortunate to have the chance to pursue something I wanted to do since I was a child but never thought I would have the chance.

I think the barriers to entry into aviation are there because there is not shortage of people wanting to give it a go. If HECS allowed flying training it would increase the supply and the rewards at the end would go down.

I think its crazy to have to pay 100k to get a job which the starting salary is 30k but the question must be asked is why do people do it.

There is something about flying aeroplanes that's different from a desk job..... Its called FUN!!

[Defenestrator]

Having the noose of a substantial loan around ya neck is quite the motivator. I also had the benefit of parents guaranteeing my finance but the repayments were my responsibility. Not forgeting the HECS tax that had to be payed back as well. Worked 2 and sometimes 3 jobs to make ends meet and it was hard. But I worked at it and chose my employers carefully so that progression onto twins would happen. 4 years out of my training I was very lucky to score a job with a prominent turbo-prop operator and a command followed quickly. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to go to Darwin and the like. Too many people vieing for the few jobs. Look off the beaten track a bit. The work is out there. Have a solid plan of attack with your applications to airlines and stick to it RELIGOUSLY. Have fun and enjoy the now even if it does suck a bit. Make good friends and network at every opportunity. I've never doubted that it would happen and it finally has countless years later. A big salary on a nice burner with a pretty good company.

I spose the big tip is to stay positive. Don't lose sight of your goals and work towards them every day. The interviews will come. The rest is up to you.

Good luck
D:ok:

[FullySickBro]

Hmm... What keeps motivated to keep going and not give up?? That little voice inside me that "farrk you you won't beat me!"

5 years after completing my CPL I am now on B1900s, loving it and all the while knowing it can only get better from here.

Those hard times just make it that much sweeter when you do 'make it' whatever that may mean to you.

And when people ask me should they get into aviation I give it to them straight 'if you want it bad enough then go for it!'

:ok:

[JimmyReeves]

The more people who give up aviation the better it is for those who persevere with it!:ok:

[ABX]

2P2D,

I fully support your right to make your own choices based on your own experiences. Good for you mate.:ok:

Now, please PM me the name of the employer you have just left, as I believe he might be looking for someone!:E

[Joker89]

2P2D

"Last week I was offered a job that pays $120, 000 a year (on the job training)- only because of my highschool subjects I chose to study.
Hell, I'm gonna take it"

care to elaborate, I don't think there is any job in the world paying that much based on high school subject level of knowledge/experience. Your having a laugh...

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

People....you may not personally agree with 2P's choice, but you must all agree it is HIS to make!! And credit where credit is due. How many good folk are out there whinging away in dead end jobs too scared to make the change????

Dirk......we may not be about to use 2P as the world's shining example of perserverance, but if he does owe the olds money, is he going to be in a better position to repay it on $120K (assuming that is the correct starting figure) or flying some 5-cylinder C210 out of 'The Crack' for the 'love of it????'

Horses for courses people! If one doesn't have the "passion".....then what is the sense in pressing on with it????

He can always come back with this almighty "shortage" looming.


RFKB :)

[Quokka]

Joker89... he's not joking. Mining is paying six-figure salaries and if you don't believe that... get on a plane to Perth and you'll find out.

[drshmoo]

Dear 2p!ssed2drive
23 with 1200 or so hours was like me after 2 years in Kununurra. Then left for twin jobs back east for two years, now have Regional Command. This year is pretty crazy with regard to Jet intakes. I have two good opportunities with Jet jobs in Oz this year. So 4 years on 2p!ssed2drive you could too.
But.... as like most people there have been tough times. My car is still sh!t house but I've drank lots of beer, made lots of great mates. If you have a quitters attitude then its not your industry. A little perspective can take you a long way. And if you don't come back, then in 3/4 years or less some other pilot who isn't a quitter can know that he has one les pilot to compete against for a Jet/Turboprop job. Good luck with new career..champ:ok:

[ABX]

2P2D,

Thanks for the PM mate.

Although you didn't specify, my money goes to:

Last week I was offered a job that pays $120, 000 a year (on the job training)- only because of my highschool subjects I chose to study.
Hell, I'm gonna take it.


...another lost to the mining boom?


Good luck 2P2D.

[2p!ssed2drive]

there's quite a few PM's going on in the background here...

there are some good guys in this industry.

thanks for you encouragement.

it appears after a good kick up the bum and some good advice....

i'll be back after I gather a few George Washingtons...

:ok:

[FlightIdle]

Hey ABX,

Did ya get the name of that employer thats now short a pilot?

Let me know and I'll get my suit out.

FI.

[Capt Wally]

............the few left standing at the end of the day job wise in flying will be those few that purely love flying, all else such as common sense (better money/conditions outside the aviation industry) goes by the wayside when your hoplessly hooked on flying:-)

capt wally :-)

[aviationascent]

About 3 years ago, at age 20, I realised that if I wasn't prepared to drop bombs on people then I would have to find a means of financing what I have long wanted to do. My high school results were less than impressive so it seemed the only means I had to save some money was $10.00 p/h unskilled labour. It seemed like it would take forever!

One day someone through a book in my lap about real estate investment. It was a bit of a Tony Robins job but opened the door for me to a new way of thinking about aquiring funds. I decided that the quickest way to getting this money together would be to buy a house. Obviously, prior to doing so I carried out lots of research into growth areas, return on investment ratios etc etc.

Anyhow, 3 years later I worked as I would have done anyway putting every spare cent on the loan, not paying rent to someone else and improving the place with the little money left over. I now have accumulated around 40K and will be getting the house revalued in a month of two to gain control of any extra equity. Without giving my self too much of a pat on the back it has taken much persistence, commitment, forsight and patience. But I would recommend it to anyone struggling to find the money to live their dream. The house is currently renting, and I invisage that by the time I am ready for the airlines, their will have been enough growth to pay for a type rating if need be. I believe that with the apparent climate of the aviation industry, this little house will be my "back up plan" that was mentioned in ealier threads.

Just thought I'd share a little success story as much of the discussion on the forum is, although seemingly warranted, vaguely depressing. However, this will not deter me, the concept of not making it work is no longer present in my mindset as I have proved to myself that with a little thought and planning, commitment and willpower go along way! And also that I have the dedication and patience to make it to the end! ;)

The hardest part for me is choosing which school to learn with, however, since research is the key, I'm sure the choice will soon become abundently clear. Any recommendations of good schools in the Brisbane area would be greatly appreciated!

Anyway, thats my 2 bob worth of happy chappy:ok:... I'm sure someone will have something critical in nature to say...:E

[Tempo]

Would I recommend a career in aviation......absolutely. I still think its the best job in the world. Sure, all my mates who did trades/uni courses after highschool are in a far better financial position than I am (it has taken me 8 years to pay off debts) and will probably retire in a much stronger position than me. But in my opinion, when I retire, I would have seen a lot of the world, had some great times and will be able to sit back and think " I spent my entire working career having fun doing something I loved". Money has never been a motivation for me and I would not change careers if they cut my pay in half tomorrow. So sure....I would recommend a career in aviation to someone...as long as they had a passion for flying and aviation. If you do this job for $$$$ you would not last 5 min.

[Maxweight]

Years ago (pre 90's)there was a bit of money to be made by the airlines.
The price of airframes and fuel was lower and the airfares higher.This was prior to deregulation.
Now we have low cost carriers paying low wages but providing more jobs.
A lot of flying jobs are still better than most desk jobs though!
My advice to people starting out is to make a 5 year plan and go for it!:ok:

[aviationascent]

just out of curiosity maxweight,
what would this five year plan include, how would it unfold and what is significant about 5 years? are you suggesting that people should quit at this point if they haven't achieved the aim of the plan. it would seem to me, with what little knowledge/experience of the industry i have that this would be the time that things would really start to progress for the aspiring airline pilot. the time that all the outgoing money may start to look like it may start to be incoming, even if only LOOK LIKE.:confused: