Starting Circuits soon....

[WilliamOK]

So I'll be starting circuits soon as a student pilot with about 5 hours of flying time......

What are the things I should look out for, tips/pitfalls etc in doing them?

[wrongwayaround]

Get your checks done early and learn them off-by-heart!

On downwind the BUMFFCH type checks are great.

Keep runway centerline after takeoff - especially when operating on parallel runways.

You'll love it

WWA :ok:

[AerocatS2A]

I don't think there is much you can gain from here (especially not from me, I do terrible circuits.)

Listen to your instructor, do as they say, and relax.

[tlf]

Your final approach must be 10-11 miles in length with a three degree glideslope and flown at around 135 knots, ALWAYS!


Secondly, you'll get so much crap back by posting such a question on the internet that you'll just end up confused.

Listen to what your instructor has to say and do it. If things don't seem to click ask to have a couple of sessions with another instructor.

Have fun!

[Howard Hughes]

Don't make em too big!!:ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

please dont fly basair circuits.

thanks.

[Arm out the window]

Rolling out on downwind, set attitude, power and balance. Pick a feature in the distance as a heading reference.
Downwind scan - 'Heading, spacing, height, speed' - these are the 'performance' aspects of your attitude-lookout-performance cycle.

If one or more of these things is wrong, make a positive change (heading, power, attitude or whatever's needed), and continue your scan, monitoring how your changes are working.

Try and remember your settings each time, eg heading on downwind, base turn point, power settings etc. Then if it turns out to be a shabby circuit, at least you've got something positive to change next time round, AND you'll build up a good knowledge over time of what parameters work for your aircraft in varying wind conditions.

Know where all the traffic is (look and listen) and don't look inside too much to the detriment of your situational awareness.

Draw a little picture of a circuit and think about how different wind strengths and directions might affect how you have to fly (power settings, headings, angles of bank etc).

Enjoy! It gets easier.

[mattyj]

If you forget to pick a reference, follow the plane in front..adjust throttle so it doesn't get any closer.

[27/09]

Is this a wind up or are you serious with your question William OK?

You are paying good money for someone to instruct you, listen to what they tell you, don't try to know it all first, if you don't have confidence in your instructor find another one.

This is not the place to ask the sort of questions you are asking.

[aircabbie]

Mate just relax , the fact you have asked the question to me seems you might be getting a little a head of your self . The best advice i can give is to get your mind thinking ahead of the plane . start Planning things early , systematicaly once your airbourne , clean the plane up ( ie flaps ect ) concerntrate on speeds ie climb speed . once at 500ft concerntrate on still maintaining speeds and a gentle 15 deg turn ( rate one) to 1000ft then start thinking ahead , whilst maintaing spacing think about landing checks BUMFISH . THE INSTRUCTOR WORKS FOR YOU . your paying him and he will give you all the info you need my freind . the best way to fly is just to relax and think about whats going to be required of the plane before its time to do it .

Good luck With it

[BrazDriver]

I agree with 27/09!!

I think you have to listen more, study more and ask your instructor more!!! He should be your source of answers!

No offence to fellow PPRuNe's but too many cooks spoil the broth!!

[maxgrad]

Just remember
The art of flying is to throw yourself at the ground......and miss.
In this case just let the wheels touch the ground and nothing else.
Enjoy!

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

My main fault so far was to expect a magic formula to leap into my head when required. Relaxing a bit and looking at where I am reference the runway (duh) is suddenly working a lot better.

Would endorse the above comments about your instructor, you will learn more from the feedback from one circuit you fly than from months of reading stuff here.

[Elroy Jettson]

Dont forget it will perform alot better with the fat instructor out of the cockpit... Have fun.

[PA39]

:) I am a former CFI and CP. Just enjoy your circuits. Circuits are a combination of all you have learned to date, climbing, turning, straight and level and descending. Don't be concerned about your landings, when it all "clicks together" you'll know.

Good luck

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Just remember the definition of a good landing is one you walk away from.

The definition of a great landing is one where they can use the plane again.......

UTR

[K3nnyboy]

please dont fly basair circuits.
thanks.

nice one mate....are you sayin I cant fly CCT? haha just kiddin...but dude it's not the student fault sometime, there are some real good (and bad) instructors there when i was doing my training~~:hmm:

[K3nnyboy]

do your checks...and relax, do not over-stress

[tamr9]

just do a bit study of flare, hold off and touch down in final, it told me a while to get used to it :suspect: . easpecially when the crosswind is strong.
cheers

[roadrunna]

I completed my first solo circuit about 3 weeks ago and have done about 1.5 hours on my own in the circuit so far.

When I was first learning CCTS, I found that making them just a little wider really helped me plan what I was going to do without feeling rushed. I turned on to crosswind at 600' instead of 500' to give me a little more spacing on downwind. Remember to use the trim... you'll fly better and smoother circuits. It also helps if you spend 30 minutes a day practising circuits in your head.. have a photocopy or printout of the flight controls infront of you if it helps...

Good luck & have fun.
RR

[harrip]

This is not the place to ask the sort of questions you are asking.

My browser displays the line "The place for students, instructors and charter guys" - seems just the right sort of place...

For circuits, I'd recommend reading the theory and getting tips for specific problems you encounter then consolidate with practice, practice and more practice. Getting the theory clear in your head before sitting in an aircraft can make things a lot more economical.

[Magarnagle]

Just remember that your instruction allows for the fact that you are not going to be full bottle on this from day one - it can be daunting to think "how am I supposed to know ALL this stuff???"
Each time you go up, around and down, you will be consolidating a little more of what you need to know.
So I wouldn't stress too much about what you don't know, just concentrate on the stuff you do know, and everything else will fall into place over time (as long as you pay attention).
One day (and chances are it will be a surprise to you:sad: ) the instructor will hop out, you'll go solo, and you'll realise that all the work you've put in is starting to pay off.
Then you'll realise there's a stack more to learn. But that will all fall into place too if you work hard.
Good luck, learn from your mistakes, and enjoy it all.

Also, don't neglect the theory. Get ahead of your BAK stuff.

[JimmyReeves]

Don't fly large circuits.

[Weekend_Warrior]

I'm mildly surprised no one else has mentioned this.

No matter how bad the circuit and final approach, it can always be saved with a go-around.

A midair collision can't - it will probably be your last flight.

Also be aware of different aircraft speeds and plan accordingly. Where I fly we have mixture of traffic from gliders all the way to turbine IFR.

Don't be too proud to give way even if you technically have the right of way - someone may do it for you one day.

[wrongwayaround]

True that :ok:

There is absolutely no shame in going-around :)

[Miraz]

One other thing - make sure you have all your license and medical applications filed with CASA...cause you will probably be needing them fairly soon and it's frustrating to hold up your training waiting for them.

[WilliamOK]

Thanks to most of you for the good advice. Of course there are some people who seem to feel the need to critise almost every post made on pprune:confused: so good luck to them.

As with the licneces well, I've already started all that... though my medical done in July last year, it didn't get sent out to me untill october and I didn't get the tax invoice 'till last week.... go figure!:hmm:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I turned on to crosswind at 600' instead of 500' to give me a little more spacing on downwind.:confused:
Sorry, but this will actually make you turn downwind earlier, hence closer than if you turned at 500'. (If you are using timing to judge your downwing turn, flying for 400' of climb is less than for 500' of climb, ergo a shorter x-wind leg.) In any case a decent head or tail wind will screw this technique right up. Using runway position x number of chord lengths behind the wing (with allowance for drift angle) is one technique for maintaining a more constant separation/spacing from the runway turning downwind.
Your instructor should be able to clarify this for you, but this is not intended as advice on how to fly circuits. I was reluctant to post on this thread as I agree totally that the student should be taught by their instructor and I have no intention for my comments to substitute for a school's method, however inaccurate statements such as that quoted should be corrected.

[bentleg]

but this will actually make you turn downwind earlier, hence closer than if you turned at 500'
inaccurate statements such as that quoted should be corrected
Not sure that I agree with that. If he turns downwind at circuit height it may make him closer to the runway.

The downwind turn is at the pilots discretion. If he flys slightly wide as suggested in roadrunna's post, which incidentally I don't favour, he WILL have more space between his aircraft and the one in front - and more space from the runway - and more time to think plan etc. As I read the post, that is the point being made.

I agree that this thread is really rather pointless as the student should learn from the instructor in the first instance.

[Crash one]

I'd go along with listen to your instructor. Ours tell us to turn left onto base just past the building with the red doors, aim at the bridge pillars until you pass the Police station mast, then track towards the golf club house, turn final over the tenth green! God only knows what we would do if someone paints them doors green.

Edited to add-: On a less flippant note your instructor will keep telling you to look at the other end of the runway, not at the ground, when that bit clicks you will stop making a hash of the touchdown.

[bentleg]

Ours tell us to turn left onto base just past the building with the red doors, aim at the bridge pillars until you pass the Police station mast, then track towards the golf club house, turn final over the tenth green!

When learning circuits that works - but only at that airport. From the outset I was taught to watch the angle back to the runway threshold and turn final accordingly.

[Crash one]

That is the point I was trying to make with reference to painting the doors green!! Sorry if my flippant remarks were mis-interpreted.
I learned on gliders many moons ago "pick your touchdown point & eyeball the decending pattern back up to where you are at high key" I still use it with modifications ref power.

[roadrunna]

Not sure that I agree with that. If he turns downwind at circuit height it may make him closer to the runway.

The downwind turn is at the pilots discretion. If he flys slightly wide as suggested in roadrunna's post, which incidentally I don't favour, he WILL have more space between his aircraft and the one in front - and more space from the runway - and more time to think plan etc. As I read the post, that is the point being made.

I agree that this thread is really rather pointless as the student should learn from the instructor in the first instance.My instructor made the suggestion. After showing him this thread he said that the student pilot usually requires larger circuits when learning because they simply don't have the experience to cope with other aircraft performing unusual manoeuvres in the circuit, this can also force the trainee to change their preferred flight path.

flying for 400' of climb is less than for 500' of climb, ergo a shorter x-wind legAfter reading MakeItHappenCaptain's post 3 or 4 times I realize that he misread my post and thought I was turning onto crosswind at 400'.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I turned on to crosswind at 600' instead of 500' to give me a little more spacing on downwind.
flying for 400' of climb is less than for 500' of climb, ergo a shorter x-wind leg
I realize that he misread my post and thought I was turning onto crosswind at 400'.
Not the case. Before I begin, please do not take this as a personal attack. If you wait until 600' AGL to turn x-wind, (the presmption being you are waiting until 1000' AGL to turn downwind) that means you have only 400' left to climb. To climb 400' takes less time than to climb 500', right? This means you don't travel as far over the ground, hence you turn onto downwind at a closer distance from the runway.
In any case to advise that height of turning x-wind will affect your spacing is just plain wrong. The downwind turn should be made with reference to the runway.
Feel free to PM me if you still require further clarification on this explanation. As I said, there is no malice intended here and this thread is getting messy.

[roadrunna]

the presmption being you are waiting until 1000' AGL to turn downwindDon't presume that I'm turning on to downwind as soon as I level out at 1000' . I never made such a statement and this is probably not going to work out very well anyway on a really bad day with a strong headwind or tailwind, therefore I've been instructed to always check the desired distance before turning.

Cheers.
RR..

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

:uhoh:
After careful consideration I have indeed come to the agreement with RR that turning later will space you out further as long as you turn with reference to the runway position. WAKE UP MIHC! One dimensional thinking. Apologies to RR for my brain fart. Maybe this is a perfect example of too many cooks. Once again this sort of advice should be left to your instructor.

[Avgas172]

From the '1915 Fliegen Wagen Manual' 'unt pullen bachen shtick ein houses getten schmaller .... unt more pullen baken shtick houses getten bigger again'
and yes after 20 years I still stuff up the odd circuit although it's still a buzz to pull off a greaser.
cheers :E
A172

[barondriver]

MAGS BOTH (as many pilots leave them on L or R for increased fuel efficiency)

Last time I checked my mags in a runup the rpm dropped when operating on a single mag. This shows less power is being produced on the same fuel. How does that equate to increased fuel efficiency? :ugh:

[Ultralights]

one little thing that has alway irked me, is the F part of the downwind check, Fuel - enough for go around.... shouldn't you have enough for a diversion?

[Miraz]

Or check that the fuel pump is turned on?

[bentleg]

for me (in a 172) it means fuel tanks on both.

Re go round - how can you tell if you have enough fuel for that. Hopefully you still have your 3/4 hour reserve intact.

[roadrunna]

MIHC, nevermind.. after reading my posts again I realize that I wasn't very clear , my apologies.

[Yon Garde]

Barondriver,

I'll have to make my subtle jokes less subtle from now on!

I was commenting on the various ways many schools unnecessarily increase their students training time (aka profits) by adding a few minutes hear and there on every flight. As someone who used to run a school I seen them all and tried to remove them as I believe they are immoral and unprofessional. i.e:

"My instructor made the suggestion. After showing him this thread he said that the student pilot usually requires larger circuits when learning...." They need the larger circuits to finish the un-necessary checks like MAGS BOTH, MASTER ON, HATCHES ans HARNESSES SECURE. Many circuits in cessnas are bigger that a Boeings. This is inefficent and argubly unsafe. But the flying school's aren't complaining.

The under-supervision of junior instructors, where the poor student pays for extra circuit sessions as his jnr Gr3 won't hand him off for a solo check until he could pass a CPL.

The misuse of checklists. "...'cos that's wot the airlines do". RUBBISH, what would some instructor with 200 hrs know about what the airlines do? Airlines use CHECKlists not DOlists. A CHECKlist is used after the actions have already been completed and the CHECKlist verifys these have not been missed. In Non-normal situations, the checklist IS used as a read-and-do list. Many flying schools sit in the run-up bay for 0.1 or 0.2 too long reading through a sheet with items like SEAT: ADJUST etc, etc and the poor buggers can't start an engine without a checklist.

Instructor's hogging the radio "to take the load off the student" and then needing to do further hours while the student learns to take this all on later.

A general tendency to inadequately brief before lessons.

Not teaching students to be independent learners (an oxymoron, I know). I used to teach my students how to visualise a flight whilst sitting in the areoplane without the VDO ticking over. Mentally rehearsing the sequences, the radio calls, checks, procedures, and emergencies. This costs nothing, reduces training time and costs. I believe an instructor's job isn't to teach the student to fly. It is to teach the student HOW TO LEARN HOW TO FLY. ie. It's the student's job to learn not your job to teach.

Not using wonderfully cheap resources like Microsoft Flight Sim. This program has addons available for highly detailed C172, PA28, C152, PA34, etc up to and including the big Boeings. The detail is so good, students can practice any procedural items themselves at no cost, practice that tricky instrument approach, practice navs using real scenery and weather, and many other things.

I could go on for hours but most readers would have already stopped reading by now!

None of these points are really the fault of the average flying school instructor. They are an endemic problem in the industry with a poor standard of Grade 1/ CFIs who peddle this rubbish to Grade 3's and it gets accepted as law. It is also the fault of CASA FOIs who turn their own opinions into enforcable law to CFI's and who do not stop these old wives tales and home grown ideas becoming accepted by the GA fraternity. i.e. where does it say to set 25" 2500 @ 500' after take-off in any Aircraft Operating Manual?

I'm going to have a lie down now. Ready, aim, FIRE!

[barondriver]

I'll have to make my subtle jokes less subtle from now on!

Gees take a chill pill tiger. Maybe you shouldn't post like you are a 25hr GFPT student. And besides some poor bloke has asked a legit question and what do you do, you write a stupid post spealing bulls*#t :=

[YesTAM]

None of the schools I am familiar with have quality accreditation to Australian Standards, something that even larger law firms do these days.

While its a big job to get it, the first school that does will wipe the floor with the rest of the industry.

A quality accredited school would have to ensure students get taught the same way every time, standardised lesson plans, content and briefings. In other words, standardised instruction and most importantly feedback from the students.

One of the delightful reasons I fly with instructors occasionally is that I learn something different and new each time...... I could go on.

The other thing I think would be VERY interesting is for CASA to do a sampling exercise on students at new GFPT/PPL level to discover what they actually know. "Outcome Oriented/ Competency based" education is a
mess in my opinion. I'm still trying to work out what I don't know.

[amos2]

Don't waste your time and money doing circuits! You've got 5 hrs up right?

Get your instructor to go straight to aerobatics! :ok:

[WilliamOK]

Aerobatics in the Tommy, hmm, I can see that ending well!:}

[OZZI_PPL]

Some sort of roll in a Tomahawk............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KInqmL0eNnI

[M14_P]

hey chap,
Just make sure you have the SAME instructor for all your initial circuit work, and do what he/she says, and you will be fine. There are many a pilot on this forum and indeed at your flying school, alot of (very correct, most likely) views to take in when you are so inexperienced, just take your instructors approach and go for it.
When you start your cross country flying, you will have seen a few different approaches from several instructors, but at that stage, it is (from memory) a bit easier to comprehend, than when you are sweating it out on the circuit in a 90knot Tomahawk!

Akro in a Tommy sounds healthy, or not. :eek:

M14P

[Wombat35]

OZZI PPL and other young low time pilots.

Watching that video send shivers down my spine. As an Ex-mil pilot and current aeros instructor, that is a classic example of how NOT to roll an aircraft, especially one that is not certified for aerobatics.

Normally I wouldn't worry about posting about something like this, however I think it's relevant as the aircraft YOU are doing circuits in, might have had this done to it.

You may well ask what was wrong with what he did? Let me try and equate it like this. Would you consider it safe to trim fully forward at 200ft and let go of the controls for 5 seconds and then land the aircraft? In theory it would be possible to land successfully, but if someone saw you do it they would think you were crazy and after watching you thump it in they wouldn't want to fly that aircraft.

Now lets look at that footage, now you hear all the time that a barrel roll is a 1 G maneuver. Do you think he was pulling 1 G at the bottom?
I think not... why not after all it's a 1G maneuver!!!!!

A barrel roll should start and finish at the same height and at the same speed... Do you think that was the case?

That's because it's not a 1G maneuver... 1G is straight and level, to deviate from that you MUST be pulling more than 1G, when you hear that comment, it actually means that it's a 2G maneuver 1 + 1. That being said, I have not had one student successfully do a barrel roll remaining within 2G.

How close to the edge of the envelope was he....? I'd say pretty close, probable as close as you would be trying to land trimmed fully forward, but you can't tell, as it has no G Meter, so you don't know if it has been overstressed or not.

So what about the aircraft? There is a reason that you are not supposed to do aerobatics and that reason is the same as the reason you can't drive your Hyundai Excel around Bathurst at 150K's.... It's not designed for it and you will quickly exceed the limits of engine/brakes. Would you want to drive a car that always has it's gears changed 100rpm below red line? Or that always goes from max power to full brakes....?

So can you safely draw a conclusion that that particular pilot did not really know what he was doing? I hope so...

I hope you can see what I'm trying to say here, PLEASE don't try this stuff, if you want the thrills of Aerobatics, great, it will make you a better pilot, just don't do it in a Tommi !

Cheers
Wombat

[huckleberry58]

On finals think "Aiming point, centerline, airspeed" over and over all the way to your decision height then "On speed, on slope, windsock, fully configured, runway clear, carb ht off"... then land! :ok:

[OZZI_PPL]

No Worries Womba, Agree with you 100%. It's amazing when you do a search of youtube the amount of cowboy pilots you find trying to kill themselves in all sorts of imaginative ways. I'm certainly not one of them.

[maxgrad]

With you Wombat, after I watched that vid I started to watch the airshow stuff, flown by pilots who knew the limits of their a/c and were flying things that were designed for aeros.
Never seen a Tommy or c172 or such doing airshow routines, they arent designed for it and probably boring as batpoo.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Wombat

Are you sure you have this right? Its been a while since I have spun a Tommyaxe (ex Manawatu Districts Aero Club - can't remember the call sign but I think it may have been destroyed in mid-air some years later) but the video clearly starts and end with a spin.

The bit in the middle sure looks like some sort of roll, but the Tommyaxe will roll onto its back when spun one way (can't remember which), and I have never observed it from outside the aeroplane, but that sort of spin entry and immediate recovery would look like some sort of roll.

FTDC:cool:

[AerocatS2A]

It starts with a spin, but it ends with a fairly ugly roll.