Jobs in Australia seem plentiful if you've got the experience

[Little Fish]

Job Prospects in Australia

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but there seems to be a heap of jobs advertised lately, in particular if you have the 2000 hrs total, 500 ME PIC, ME CIR and ATPL(H). Almost there, just need a few more ME PIC and a couple of subjects. Is this a global trend with a shortage of more experienced pilots or is it just because the wages are so meagre in Australia that everyone goes abroad (Admittingly cost of living is also very affordable).

I am particularly interested to know if this is also the case in Canada, Europe and Africa. :ok:

[gulliBell]

Yeah, there are also lots of jobs driving buses as well (the VFR 4-wheel type with single diesel engine). On the news last night, a local bus company in Perth is paying up to $80K per year, including OT and penalty rates. So short are they due to the mining boom grandma's are being encouraged to apply.

[Shirtless]

Hey you can apply as a metro or country train driver and get 100K + to listen to an iPOD as you pull a lever and whiz past the country side.

personally I think alot of the hipe about jobs a plentiful have been started by those with vested intrests in getting more students through the sausage factories!

[CYHeli]

Flungdung you are part right, the old timers at one stage did not have experience and had to get it, normally by being in the right place at the right time.
Two things though;
1. The level of required experience is increasing, not decreasing. Two examples; the R44 doing traffic reporting in Melbourne now requires 1500 hrs TT but previously was only 1000 hrs. The increase, I believe, is decided by insurance companies. Perhaps an operator involved who visits here could confirm this. The second example is the muted increase in hours required for fire ops after a certain pilot dropped a B206 in a dam in Canberra. Maybe 1500 hours isn't enough and we need to up it to 2 or 3000hrs. Not, put two pilots into a busy machine and split the work-load and manage fatigue, just up the hours to get better qualified people who want make mistakes...:ugh: What? More experienced pilots don't get tired and make mistakes?

2. Being in the right place at the right time does not mean that a pilot has the required experience, it really means, we're short of pilots, you can do this one! The company then tells the insurer or contractor what they want and hope nothing goes wrong! After a while, hey bingo you've got hours and it doesn't matter.

I'm not bitter, just realistic but still slogging away...

[aviationascent]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum but what a great resource!

I have been saving for a few years now and finally have enough funds to get me to atleast CPL(H), I made the choice to have the finance ready before starting training. From a few of the comments it seems like I might be just in time to get trained up and look for that illusive first job!

I have got the impression that having an Instructor rating is of great benefit when starting out but would;ve thought that one would need much more than the minimum hours to seriously expect to be able to use it. What is a ball park figure for hours if I trained my self to X, (any recommendations for what 'X" should be would be appreciated), using my available funds of about $60K. I am 23 so feel that I need to get my butt trained and start lookin' ASAP!

Are conditions REALLY that peachy for chopper pilots. (I am certainly aware that regardless of the current climate of the industry, finding the first job will take alot of persistance!)

Also, how do the job prospects of a CPL(H)(with recommended rating ie instructor) minimal hours, look by comparison to say that of a CPL(A) with MECIR NVFR and either f(ATPL) or Instructor rating on minimum hours.:confused::confused:

Cheers in advance!
R

[gulliBell]

Hold off on the instructor rating for the time being. Get your CPL happening, include NVFR in your training to get a basic feel for instrument flying. If you're making good progress with the stick and rudder stuff, rather than just burn up GF hours to make the minimum numbers, concentrate further on your IF. If you get the knack of it, aim for your instrument rating. I'm not sure of the rules in Australia now, but wouldn't be surprised if you can get a co-pilot instrument rating in a single engine helicopter (someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that aspect). A basic commercial licence with IFR will give you a better chance at a real first job, i.e. one which pays you a reasonable salary.

[Enzo...TMBPITC]

My advice as a recently graduated CPL(H) holder would be to get your basic CPL(H) and do a R44 type rating and get your IREX out of the way. Reason being is as follows:

1) Get your CPL(H) which is your licence to fly and then get a R44 rating, cause its the most likely type you will fly out of your licence. Think about it...in Australia on the civil register there are some 1300 machines, of which 400ish are R22 and 250-300ish are R44...good chance you will be flying a R44. A low level is also a good thing, be cautious getting a sling rating unless you know will you use it for sure in your first job.
2) Your IREX is a great way to get into the Australian offshore market in the big machines as a co-pilot. You need your IREX first for these jobs and the ATPL comes later on generally, though its nice to have. I would not worry too much about a instrument rating as employers will pay for this training when they employ you or select you to be upgraded onto a bigger machine. Otherwise, in my humble opinion, you might be wasting your time.
3) Aeroplanes should be banned and stamped out of existance...do not consider flying aeroplanes unless you want a boring career and you are prepared to get a labotomy. DO NOT consider flying them my friend.

Good luck and ask as many questions as you like. Its the only way you learn.

[aviationascent]

Enzo...TMBPITC, just curious as to how you went getting work with minimal hours?

Is it true about there being alot of movement in the industry now due to retirement of Nam vets etc, and if so, do you feel it is providing the opportunities for guys with lower hours? All the job searches i have done seem only to turn up opportunity for those with a decent amount of hours. And do you think that by the time I finish my training I'll have missed the boat?

Also, to anyone out there, (and not that I want to do it for the money!), but what is the average salary for a pilot (who can get work) with a good amount of hours?? The reason I ask is that I also have a passion for investing in real estate and want to continue to buy more houses ASAP and a reasonable wage will definatley help this!

Also, the reason I have considered CPL(A) is mainly the aspect of apparently much better money, although I am aware that only a few hopefuls make it to the big league.

Other things on my mind at the moment is that choppers may provide a marginally better family life, but on the other hand are less practical for private use, ie family holidays etc. Any thoughts.

I feel that this must come across as just self interested ramble so I really appreciate any feedback!

Thanks again!:ok:

[Heliringer]

Aviationacent, 60k will only get you your basic CPL. It will take around 5 to 8 months from exams to completion. If you then want an instructor rating you need 400 hours of helicopter time.
The best bet for you if you want to fly Helicopters is to get the CPL and then go north and find yourself a job, an R44 rating is the way to go, cos' it's the most popular tourist machine around. Dont listen to the Bell 47 blokes there are none around that I know of, they only want your money to keep their old warbird flying, no one uses them anymore. Ok I know of Aviation Adventures in the whitsundays but anyone else? In the tourism role? AG is different.
As for conditions being PEACHY for pilots, well as a newby you might earn 400 a week, that's for 6 days mate. I dont know of anyone paying much more than that. In fact I hear Phillip Island Helicopters have VOLUNTEERS so they dont get paid at all.
Yeah the market is great if you have 5000 and IR but it's the same as it's always been if you dont. It's a good job but dont be sucked in by thinking you will find a job and earn good money for the first 4 or 5 years.
Cheers
Ringer

[Enzo...TMBPITC]

aviationascent....everything that heliringer said was pretty much spot on, except for the cost of your licence (bare CPL-H) will prob be closer to $45,000 which should include your thoery expenses as well (plus the cost of being unemployed for 5 months if you do it this way). Part-time is prob closer to 12 months if you take it easy. Remember if you do your commercial plank wing licence it will cost you about the same, but you will also have to do an instructor rating and/or a MECIR as well to make yourself employable either early on or later on when you want something better...add another $10-14K for each of those. My advice, go helicopters! As one old pilot said to me years and years ago, its a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll (or fly helicopters), but gee its alot of fun on the way to top. :ok:

[aviationascent]

A big thank you to all for your input!

When one talks about having a ME CIR for helicopters is this the same as the ME CIR for aeroplanes? And would an example of the type of heli requiring ME endorsement be a Jetranger (something with twin turbine engines?)

Any idea idea which industry of the two (plank 'n' halo), would be better for family life. I have a gorgeous girl of 6 years together and hear that things get pretty tough on the relationship in both industries. Surely one is better than the other!? I would expect that the good money in airlines assists the strain, but being more or less home each night in the chopper industry assists too!? Anyone know from experience?

At the moment I'm leaning towards choppers. The flying im sure is much, much more rewarding than planks! Also, less study in the long run ie, than keeping yourself employed in the airlines, not to mention less expense in the long run! Fair observation?

Since i should have about 15k left over from what i have available, I was thinking that from what you have all implied the smart move would be to get R44 rated (which im assuming costs money) and NVFR too, once I have got my CPL(H). Do you think with the funds available (ie 15k ) this is realistic??

Cheers again, all comments are making what intially felt like a very difficult decision much clearer! Thanks:ok::ok: And heliringer, I certainly dont expect to earn good money straight away. Also, what is considered to be good money amongst heli pilots? What is the salary like at the high end of employment?

Also, has anyone had any dealings with Austcopters at Archerfield? What are they like for training.

What is the school of thought on doing a combined fixed-rotary licence? Some think is is good for employment and that it is cheaper. What about total hours in the chopper being reduced/replaced by fixed wing hours, does this then decrease employment prospects?

Sorry all the questions are such a jumble!
Cheers,
Rupert

[gulliBell]

Hey Ringer....

"As for conditions being PEACHY for pilots, well as a newby you might earn 400 a week, that's for 6 days mate. I dont know of anyone paying much more than that."

What a sad indictment this is, if true, of both the industry generally and of the pilots who work for these wages. A professional pilot should be on $400 per day (what I pay for any apprentice electrcian/plaster/painter/tiler to work on my house), and not $400 per week. An entry level junior kitchen hand flipping burgers in Hungry Jacks for 35 hours per week earns more. How many hours are the newby's putting in? I figure a typical duty day for most piloting jobs is 10 hours, at 6 days per week, boils down to less than $7 per hour. Why is it that a 15 year old burger flipper earns more than a professional pilot? A lot more money, time and effort goes into training a helicopter pilot than a burger flipper, so why is the flipper rewarded more for their work than the pilot? Something is very wrong here, and I reckon it starts with lack of backbone. This comment will alienate some I know, I'm happy to accept criticism on any well argued alternative view.

Getting back on topic, more specifically about the above advice to get an R44 rating. Seems to me that taking this course of action is doomed for a life of hard yakka at $7 per hour, living away from the family possibly for months at a time. I've got almost 6,000 helicopter hours and I've never even seen an R44 up close let alone flown one. That's because I did a multi-engine instrument rating when I had 200 hours total helicopter, and I've been mostly flying twins ever since (and getting paid appropriately for it). So based on my experience, I reckon anyone considering getting into helicopters is better off putting their spare $$ towards an IF rating rather than an R44, particularly if he can comfortably nail the IF component of the NVFR course in his CPL training.

As for Rupert's question about salaries, I work for a company who employs both RW and FW pilots. I know that the RW pilots pay more in tax each year than what many of the FW pilots get paid, period! Having said that, the FW guys can go work for Cathay Pacific or other long haul carriers when they have their hours up, and chasing cute air hostie's as a 2nd officer is their light at the end of the tunnel.

[Shirtless]

Hey GulliBell.......SPOT ON!:D

[Heliringer]

Gullibell,
The reason junior pilots are paid so little is because there are so many out there looking for a job to build up hours to move onto a job like yours. The backbone issue you raised is not valid, if you dont take the pay on offer you dont get the job and you never progresss.
I started on $100 a day as a pilot. The same as I got for working on the ground mixing and driving the truck.
You'd never find an FO job with only 200hours now. Bristow want atleast 500 prefer ATPL and Turbine experience. CHC are 1500.
I was giving advice based on doing the hard yards as a ground worker and then as a pilot.
It would be great if we all earned $400 a day but in the General Aviation scene that I have experienced in Australia a junior pilot will not earn anywhere close to that.
Cheers
HR

[CYHeli]

You are right Heliringer, some of the pilots at Phillip Island are volunteers, some are paid up to $20 a day if you whinge loud enough. They do how ever provide free accomodation and some meals.
This is how the industry is going. The pay drops as the number of new students/pilots are churned out.
aviationascent good luck. Plug away and if you have a dream stick to it, there is no easy way. I hope that there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[gulliBell]

"......You are right Heliringer, some of the pilots at Phillip Island are volunteers, some are paid up to $20 a day if you whinge loud enough. They do how ever provide free accomodation and some meals...."

Just imagine the consequences, if a commercial operator was using volunteer pilots and there was an accident, wouldn't it raise some interesting questions at the subsequent enquiry! At the very least it would make an interesting story for Today Tonight or A Current Affair. I hope those volunteer pilots have thought about the possible consequences of their "voluntary" employment, and at least have appropriate insurances in place.

Here's all hoping they can move onto more gainful employment soon (Australian Helicopters are hiring, they pay their pilots don't they?).

And by the way, Hungry Jacks staff get provided free meals as well as being paid. Free meals are no substitute for a fair days pay for a fair days work. :=

I'm saddened to say, what a shameful situation.

p.s. for all those pilots offering in their CV to work for free that I see, don't, you won't get the job!

[aviationascent]

right! i guess what i am having to accept is that there is no decisive pro or con which lends it self to either industry providing more hope for employment than the other. I guess it will just come down to what i would prefer to fly.

any thoughts on the courses offered as combined rotary-fixed wing courses for a CPL(H), i am a bit weary as this doesn't seem like usual practice. apparently it works out cheaper but by the sounds of it you wind up with less hours and therefore worse job prospects? any recommendations for this style of course offering?

thanks again for all the feedback!
Rupert:ok:

[kwikenz]

Whilst I have every sympathy with pilots desperate for that lucky break, offering to work for little or no pay will only perpetuate the situation. It is a 'backbone' issue of sorts... stick to your guns... see yourself as a professional who should be paid accordingly and dont sell your skill for nothing.
The bugger of it is of course that whilst a good number of newbies might be willing to try it, there's always one s:mad: t who will undermine it to get ahead. Just wait until you've gota few hours and a job and those of you who are currenlty offering for free will soon change your opinion of the practice. Especially when you have got a worthwhile level of experience and you're still struggling to get ahead whilst a digger drivers earns more. How many digger drivers work for free whilst trying to 'break in' to the job?
Man.. Im starting to sound like a dirty unionist but maybe thats just what we need!?