how Many are leaving ?? [Archive]

tryhard

15th Feb 2007, 10:23

The reason people are leaving is quite simple. The pro's that were part of the everyday of working for Cathay are no longer there. Slash medical, increased housing prices, increased pollution, insumountable BS to get your command. Why not go to Oasis? A lot less stress for not much less loot. Swire will never learn that they can treat people like human beings and still run a company. All they have is a group of scared 'Yes' men so up to their eye balls in personal debt that they daren't say boo to the employer that has become their bank manager. As they chop and slash all the conditions the reason for being there and putting up with all their anal crap becomes void. You can't have it both ways Swire. If you're going to treat us like ****e then at least have the decency to provide us with adequate salaries to compensate for the fact we have to put up with a 3 hour debrief for reading one line of a checklist incorrectly at 4AM in the sim having just got back from another wonderful sandpit pattern the morning before while our families live in a polluted rat hole. Oh, and I am sorry that I said "Set and Checked" instead of "Checked and Set" on my last PC.... Get a life losers........

Oasis sounds good to me.... I'm there dudes.......Cathay :yuk: :yuk:

You can have it.........................................

abortt

15th Feb 2007, 10:34

Could anyone tell me the best method of contact for Oasis. Would like to discuss options but dont want to submit on line application yet ? Thanks

fire wall

15th Feb 2007, 11:37

abortt , simply go down to slashers arms and conduct yourself with a bit of dignity and those considerate gentlemen will have a chat with you in a very civil fashion. Given the appropriate experience and I am sure they will snap you up promptly. Good Luck.

Nullaman

15th Feb 2007, 14:19

With respect you can wring your hands until the cows come home. This company only understands aircraft parked up with Swire directors baying for their blood. Only then will things change - but don't hold your breath. Certain enlightened middle managers CAN see the problem areas but they are not able to get the message through to the higher stratas. The higher stratas are basically in denial.

Those officers electing to vote with their feet are taking the matter into their own hands. They have rediscovered their gonads.

Kitsune

15th Feb 2007, 15:44

Enlightened middle managers????? Not on the fleets that OASIS are recruiting from! (Kelvin and the Rubber Plant) :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes:

tryhard

15th Feb 2007, 21:25

Well said. They will learn that their arrogance is mis placed. I think they are in for a rude shock. I agree with the morale issue at Cathay. Basically the problem is there isn't any. They just don't realise it takes more than hosting a poxy carnival at the end of each year to keep the staff happy. I think the training dept should also shoulder some of the blame for the morale issues. They make life at CX miserable. It really is a miserable place to work. Oh, and before I get the barrage of "why don't you just leave", I'm trying trust me!!:ok: :ok:

Cedar Tree

16th Feb 2007, 09:27

As online retail sales continues to climb, UPS, FEDEX and the Postal Service will have to deliver more and more packages. That is good news for drivers, pilots, airplane mechanics etc.

Home delivery has been on the rise and will continue to be driven by the need to save time.

This trend should continue until someone invents a Star Trek - like teleportation system or replicator system. So don't hold your breath, delivery services look very, very good for a long time to come.

So why are our wages falling in an emerging economy?

BillytheKid

16th Feb 2007, 16:16

Cedar-

Generally speaking, the reason is because of a declining yield due to increased competition. Look at CX's yield per ATK and you will see it is slightly down. In the US we use pattern bargaining. What does CX use to determine pilot wages, its own company's financial performance or patterns among the competitors?

Kitsune

16th Feb 2007, 16:47

BTK, if you check the posts from 'The Management' all will become crystal clear......:uhoh:

BillytheKid

16th Feb 2007, 19:56

Yikes!!

I was hoping that was satire.

tryhard

18th Feb 2007, 04:13

Just heard through the vine that the numbers are more like 30 to UPS and 9 (so far) to Oasis. Let the good times roll!! This really makes me smile.:ok:

A/T less

18th Feb 2007, 04:27

Tryhard,

Between you and me, I am not sure who is more bitter?:D :D Really though, a flying job is hard to come by, let alone a good flying job. I am happy to see these folks able to move on to something better. Some of us left very good positions to come to Cathay thinking it was the final destination, and Cathay Pacific defnitely has the potential and I am sure at one point in time was the flying job! But sadly, the training environment and intimidation tactics have made it unbearable to put up with and many as someone else said; have "voted with their feet".

Good luck to them and the rest of us out there!

Kung Hey Fat Choy to all, may the fat pig bring us good fortune and more fours and fives on the ERAS reports.

tryhard

18th Feb 2007, 04:48

Come on A/T, flying jobs aren't hard to come by. In fact you can basically write your own ticket these days, as long as you're no a complete twit! I do however agree with the "GOOD" statement. A good employer in hard to find! I think CX basically are the same as any low coster now. No conditions, apathetic mangement, poor career path in general. The glory days at Cathay are well and truly over. We in part have the A scalers to thank for that. Basically we keep signing our own death warrant every time we vote in these stupid elections. Until the pilot body has the bollocks to stand up and say enough is enough we really are no better off than the guys at Easyjet or Britannia. It really is sliding downhill fast.

Mr. Bloggs

18th Feb 2007, 06:08

No one will ever stand up, it didn’t happen when the 49ers were fired.

The ones that try, the DFO will fire another round and everyone will fall into line.

You either vote with your feet or you stay and take what CX gives to you. They are the options.

7FF

18th Feb 2007, 08:43

tryhard wrote:
We in part have the A scalers to thank for that. Basically we keep signing our own death warrant every time we vote in these stupid elections.

How did you work that out? Most of your 'guilty' A scalers left the AOA in disgust years ago. AOA members not only have themselves to blame but are responsible for effecting the lives of all aircrew in CX. Made your bed, then sleeep in it.

It is a bit of a paradox when the new joiners complain about the loss of conditions and then criticise the older fraternity from staying on. Are the newbies aware that the loss of conditions also effect the oldies as well. In some cases more than you think or perhaps want to think.

tryhard

18th Feb 2007, 09:31

Economies of scale 7ff. You earn 3 times as much as I do for doing the same job. What do you care if they cut medical or housing. The effect on your disposable income is negligible. Just reach into the pocket and fish out the hundreds, or downsize the apartment to 4000 sq feet! Want a holiday? Dip into the travel fund that doesn't exist for us B Grade citizens and have a free weekend in Phuket. What you oldies need to realise is that B scale conditions are barely adequate. We are the ones who suffer with the slash and burn mentality. I'm sorry but if you are an A scaler I don't pity you one bit. You've had it easy for far too long. No Breitling watches here mate.

Freehills

18th Feb 2007, 13:22

"The consequence of a global economy is really very simple. If the world operates as one big market, every employee will compete with every person anywhere in the world who is capable of doing the same job. There are a lot of people out there, and many of them are very hungry." Andy Grove, Intel. You may not agree, but it has much truth behind it. Already many of the young Cathay/ Swire managers are from the Mainland

wingspan213

18th Feb 2007, 21:10

What is Cathay paying for FOs?

tryhard

18th Feb 2007, 21:19

Not as much as they used to!!! QED...

nudger

19th Feb 2007, 06:43

HKG based F/O.

$56,000HKG
$25,000HKG housing

stillalbatross

20th Feb 2007, 06:13

That's a miles better package than Cathay, I'll be streets ahead there. Better get in before the stampede starts...................................When I hear CX referred to as a LCC I think people need to get out more often.

tryhard

20th Feb 2007, 06:28

Albatross, I'd gladly give this job away for Oasis. The BS at CX, with constant bickering, no morale, endless crap from the trainers makes me want to do myself in.. I'd gladly give away a few dollars to be rid of these overbearing bunch of white collar thugs.......

Aussie

20th Feb 2007, 09:51

So when do u leave Tryhard?

BADRT

20th Feb 2007, 10:39

Greetings fellow aviatiors. I quit and left, and this is my first return to this site, mainly out of curiousity for the rumours that more are leaving. Here is the shortlist...
1-Rotten corporate culture, with intimidation and fear the only way managment knows how to operate.
2-Training is not objectionate. Sim and PC grades vary wildly depending on which sky god is doing the grading, and how bitter and twisted that individual might be.
3-Pay is not good enough to live in Hong Kong, and the taxes are a major inconvenience. It looks good on paper, but it is hard to save in that job.

Now is a an excellent time to venture out to another company. Life is too short to cling to the hope that things will get better there. They won't. It is rotten from the top down. Get your wife family on your side, and get out there and start looking! Good things will happen. Life is too short.

I got the 800 pound gorilla off my back. I know you want to do it too!!!

cpdude

20th Feb 2007, 14:58

404 Titan

20th Feb 2007, 19:14

cpdude

Yeh and he thinks it will all be OK in Virgin Blue. Same BS as he puts it, different airline. Just ask any of the drivers down there at the moment about rosters, pay and conditions, crap EBA negotiations and the number of nights away from home each month. All this and on a short hall roster for considerably less money and you have to pay to get the job. CX may have its bad points but it always makes me laugh those that think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. “News flash”. It isn’t.

cpdude

20th Feb 2007, 19:29

You are soooo correct.

We do have problems and that is why I am always looking for a better offer. It's been many years and I have failed to find one!:)

hog tied

21st Feb 2007, 00:48

Oh,
They are there, and you have no idea just how much better life can be and is!

BADRT

21st Feb 2007, 03:15

"Oasis Doesn't Hire S/O's" That is a typcial arrogant, condescending attitude of a CX trainier who has no respect for fellow pilots.

cpdude

21st Feb 2007, 03:41

"Oasis Doesn't Hire S/O's" That is a typcial arrogant, condescending attitude of a CX trainier who has no respect for fellow pilots.
No...that's an airline that doesn't hire S/O's!:}

...and for the record, neither should CX! All new-hires should be JFO's.:hmm:

tryhard

21st Feb 2007, 04:24

Well said BADRT. I see someone else has rediscovered their bollocks!! There are some that talk about it and some that do. I've made my decision to resign. I'm obviously not going to make myself a target and say when but I'm out......very soon.

CAN-NOT!!

21st Feb 2007, 04:44

Ex-Cathay S/O here. You can add me to the list of people that have left.

Numero Crunchero

21st Feb 2007, 11:37

Try hard,
good luck in your new employment. As you will no longer have anything relevant to say on the fragrant harbour forum, please endow other forums with your intellectually insightful quips.

horserun

21st Feb 2007, 19:32

Just out of interest CAN-NOT what were your reasons for leaving CX as a S/O??

And for the others who are not enjoying their jobs at CX,what operators (if any) do you believe provide their pilots with the best lifestyle/pay??

Only asking out of interest. I drive props and would only make a 5th of what some of you make, but have a good lifestyle.
Cheers.

CruisingSpeed

21st Feb 2007, 20:10

Hear hear Numero, bear in mind the title of the thread, the Fragrant Harbour Forum according to you is for exclusive use of current CX drivers only then? At least Nullaman and Co. are making some valid points, chuckles included.
How dare you BADRT post here then, you don’t by any chance mean IR when you talk about the 800 pound gorilla?

BADRT

21st Feb 2007, 23:20

Things i don't miss about CX....
the "Sky Gods"
Inland Revenue
Condescending, arrogant behavior from company yes men.
The ridiculous ERAS system.
The gay bar.
No control of your schedule.
Happy to be out. I only return to this forum to encourage those of you who are still there to grow a set and get the heck out.

404 Titan

23rd Feb 2007, 03:22

FCUX

Maybe NC’s comments were justified in that every time we tried to have a debate with tryhard he would just abuse us instead of debating his gripes. It might have some reason why he has been banned by the moderator don't you think?

cpdude

23rd Feb 2007, 04:17

FCUX, how's Africa?:eek:

CAN-NOT!!

23rd Feb 2007, 04:25

Horsefun,
I lasted at CX only 1.5 years...here are some of the reasons why:

Tried to take F/O slot on freighter and was told no one could go on the freighters as F/O until they finished year one as S/O..then an ex-RAAF guy getting his F/O freighter who has less time in the company than me. (the point here is lack of seniority and perpetual lies and favoritism)

The non-stop sim checks with a very critical grading system where your whole future is based on. (about every six weeks)

Arrogant managers who think Cathay invented aviation (no, they truly think that, not an exaggeration).

Lack of flying, and having to deal with egos from people who were hired at CX as 500-hour wonders. (they're there and they're captains! not talking about Cadets either)

Upgrades to F/O going on 4 years. S/O pay maxes out at 5,000USD/mo. after year 3. I expect to make more than 5,000USD/mo. after 4 years with a company. heck, I made more than that as regional airline pilot.

Too many hoops to jump through to just basically keep your job (upgrade interviews, review boards, bla bla bla).

Staff travel, CX rapes the employees in this department.

But on a bright note, I got to fly (actually only worked the radios) a "shiny" 747-400 while not thinking much about medical benefits and retirements.

I give it 2 days before the Cathay Pprune gods ban me from here...:eek:

Shoot me a private message if you have more questions.

good luck to you if you're trying to go there, it's a great place to get some "heavy, international" and go somewhere real.

What I enjoyed the most about Cathay Pacific was that most of the guys I flew with on the line were real nice. I will miss that.

bye bye

2p!ssed2drive

25th Feb 2007, 05:19

I don't fly for CX but I'm surely hoping you'll welcome me into the forum...

I've dreamed of flying for CX for a very long time...

I've also always known that regular sim checks are in the norm and can be very strenuous - but are they really that hard? I mean... if you've learned the work... isn't the 'Tune you hum' always the same whenever they pull an abnormal-ops on you?

A friend of mine is a recently appointed captain in CX and chose an Adelaide basing. He couldn't be happier (10 years from hired to Captain status).

HotDog

25th Feb 2007, 08:19

makes me laugh those that think the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. “News flash”. It isn’t.

Yes, it always seems that way until you have to mow it!:ugh:

BADRT

25th Feb 2007, 10:24

FCUX is in Africa? Ex Cathay perhaps? Good for him to get out. People are even leaving for jobs in Africa. Well I'll bet the air is cleaner than in Hong Kong.

Harbour Dweller

25th Feb 2007, 12:34

CAN-NOT,

Every person is entitled to their opinion & CX is not for everybody.

Out of interest what background had you come from prior to CX? Was it cadet, GA, military, regional or airline?

Where have you ended up & found that the grass is greener?

Happy to hear that things are better for you now.

Numero Crunchero

25th Feb 2007, 13:57

FCUX,
you misunderstood me. I dont give a sh*t whether tryhard sees things the CX way. I think he is an idiot cause he cant see any way? He is clueless. Do you have any actual non-pilot friends? Talk to them about their careers. First thing you will notice is that they have to be very PC about their jobs. Then as you get to know them they start telling you how many problems they have in their jobs. So it seems not much job satisfaction in the mordern high achievement world of expats.
But for an even better laugh, talk to your friends that leave CX for other airlines...they all regret it, some come back. What is funnier is seeing them jump from Nat Jet to QF, QF to EK or DJ to KA, EK to Asiana, Asiana to Nat Jet etc. Wow, things must be really bad in those airlines. WOnder which one try hard thinks is great to join!?

Face it, work is a four letter word. Flying is an easier job/lifestyle than most professions. All airlines have pros and cons. If you dont like it here, go find greener grass. Just dont piss back over the fence onto my grass...I am happy with its greeness ;-)

Yeager

25th Feb 2007, 18:09

The grass is greener on the other side - very often. Im fortunate enough to have worked for another very good company pre- Cathay. An airline bigger - and better - than Cathay.

Correct. There are pros and cons in any airline. As far as Im concerned Cathay is all about lifestile - whether you live in Hong Kong or on a basing (working 12-14 days a month).
If you dont fancy feeling the management breath down your neck and stringt outdated British management style (that simply doesnt belong anywhere in aviation!) you are better off going somewhere else. This is a "know it all better" airline.
If fancy flying and having fun flying - you are better off choosing another airline - if you are priviledged enough to have that as an option.

Good luck in you choices.
Y

CAN-NOT!!

25th Feb 2007, 19:39

It's just doesn't make good business sense to run an airline like CX does. If you look at it closely, they turn down most of the people whom they interviewed for pilot jobs and creating tremendous roadblocks to move through the ranks. They hold the captain rank so high that they would rather hold the airline back than upgrade anybody to the leftseat! Talk about bizarre. I DO NOT for 1 second believe that the candidates who failed their command courses were not suitable as these people have been with CX for nearly 10 years some even more. The year I was there, most upgrade candidates failed, either by the post-training review board or being CAT B where you are not even allowed to take a course. At the end of the day, what is Cathay Pacific? Is it not an airline that provides transportation from A to B and therefore need warm bodies in the cockpit to make this happen? Do they not realise that they (the 3rd floor) are holding the airline back with this boot-camp style management?

Those airplanes are not going to fly themselves, they are going to need (and very desperately so) people to occupy those cockpits of the "Shiny" 777s that are due to show up or face the embarassing alternative of parking jets.

For all the hoops that a Cathay pilot has to jump through, does it make CX any safer than anybody else? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Cathay pilots are put through 10 times more work to achieve the same results as QANTAS, ANZ, UAL and the rest of them out there.

Mr. Philip Chen, please lighten up and make some changes, the ship is sinking.
:{ :{ :{ :{

regretCX

26th Feb 2007, 03:26

Numero,

I'm sorry my friend but you really must be a company plant. I think tryhard made some very good points. He just expressed them a little too strongly. Doesn't mean what he says is not true. You and Titan and cpdude seem to be the 3 stalwarts of the "CX Fan Club" What you fail to ackowledge are the posts here there and everywhere from people who have left in disgust.

Will you please refrain from insulting us further and at least acknowledge that there are "problems" at Cathay. :ugh:

ACMS

26th Feb 2007, 10:29

oh boy another skygod that failed an upgrade? am I wrong CAN-NOT?

CAN-NOT!!

26th Feb 2007, 10:41

and.....what upgrade would that be for an 18 months guy?

wondering

26th Feb 2007, 21:11

Sorry if I hijack this thread, but for all S/Os leaving CX how do other major airlines like BA, VS, AA, UA, FedEx, UPS you name it look at a CX S/O typerating? Excuse the pun, but a S/O has only an 'Atari-Typerating' with no hands-on experience in the real thing.

ACMS

27th Feb 2007, 01:05

I've been in CX for 14 years and I'm getting a bit sick and tired of all the crap that is said on this site about our standards here. Sure we have a few problems and a few Captains do have attitudes, but they are very much in the minority now. Things have improved a lot. What you yanks have to remember is that this is not the good ol US of A, you work for CX. The operational proceedures you used back home in your F14 or CRJ 200 might have worked real well there but they don't here or anywhere else in Asia. We have to play by the book.
We are a very high standard Airline and are more than equal to BA QF etc etc and I dare say it probably better than AA or UA.
Captains are treated with respect by the other crew and it is returned. ( except by a few bad apples as I said before )
Sure the ERAS system sucks a bit, as does the Star chamber system but at the end of the day if you are prepared to put in the work ( ie actually read the books ) and learn the CX way of running this ship then you will have no problems here. Just don't come here from Boston and try to make it like home, it wont work.
Overall it's a good outfit to be in, the Aircraft are good and you will enjoy the crews you fly with. The Management and the Terms and Conditions on the other hand do need improving.

CAN-NOT 18 month guy??????????? you've been with CX for only 18 months and you think you are an expert on CX?????????????? Exactly what high levels of experience do you have.
I have a lot of friends in a lot of Airlines and I can say that they make their new recruits jump through as many hoops as CX does. And I know for a fact that QF line checks and sim checks are not much fun for the trainee.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Five Green

27th Feb 2007, 01:29

ACMS:

Glad to see you back with your usual well balanced view point !

How did you manage to turn this thread into an anti american one ?
This was not just Americans pointing out that this is no longer THE career airline, one could even argue (green grass or not) that this job cannot be viewed as a career airline at all .

Even if you put aside the pedantic, you still have the economics. Those that have left probably did so because of pay and benefits not solely because of working stress conditions etc. The working enviroment just tips the scale in favour of leaving.

As a Captain you probably not too in touch with the rest of the troops. Therefore you are perhaps not aware of the severity of the problem. The moral here is as low as I have seen it. It is not getting better.

As for CAN NOT he does not need any experience to tell him that this place did not work for him.

I too have many friends in other airlines, and most are not as frustrated with their career progression as pilots are here. Ask your friends about their career progression and take an honest look at ours. You will see that there is less stress and intimidation at most other career airlines. Not saying some don't try and come close. Contract jobs are not a picnic but are also not considered career airlines.

FG

CAN-NOT!!

27th Feb 2007, 01:51

ACMS,
It actually took me about a week to realize I made the wrong decision to quit my job in the U.S. to come to CX then spent the next year and change trying to get out. So yes, 18 months was plenty.

What do you know about our operations in the USA that made you the expert? And frankly, apart of bad ATC, what is so special about flying in Asia? Why do most of you think that the US guys are "non-standard". That's all I ever hear you boys b!tch about was how "non-standard" we are in the USA. So really, tell us all how many different airlines in the USA have you been employed at to know this?

Do I sense a bit of jealousy on your part? Every f*cking time I went flying with a training captain at CX, he always starts off with telling me sh!t about how the "yanks" all unprofessional and yada yada yada. Well, I got news for you little boy, the average pilot from the US have way more hands on experience than most of you pr!cks who sit in a hangar and read books upon books about cr#p nobody ever needs to know.

So do please tell me for the 100th time how the altitude for the escape route is derived, as that sh!t is real important to know despite it's written on the chart and all you gotta do is read it.
Just another "bloody yank"

ACMS

27th Feb 2007, 03:36

here's some advice for you pal
GO HOME
or maybe you could go to Iraq, I hear they need a few more Helicopter Pilots for the US ARMY.
Five Greens: go ask a QF Pilot about career progression. I wasn't trying to make it a anti-US reply, but it does seem to me and a lot of other CX guys that our friends from across the Pacific do complain a lot about our "standards"
And yes it should take a lot more than 18 months to develop a clear unbiased factual idea about life in CX. He aint go it, Simple.

Oasis

27th Feb 2007, 06:31

Can I be the diplomat here?

This silly "we do it better than them" has got to stop! Are we still in the schoolyard?
Cx has a very good safety record and trains to a high standard.
I am not so sure that the extra work that they put you through is the reason for this safety record. AA doesn't seem to have it and they do it just as safe, with probably 10 times the sectors per month we have.

In the U.S. they take a more practical approach than their european/oz counterparts, which is just a different way of doing things, and is not less or more safe, in my opinion, just different.

Cx is an airline of diversity, so lets embrace that and learn something from eachother.

regretCX

27th Feb 2007, 06:32

And of course ACMS you have experience with both BA and QF to back up your wild boast.???????You have obviously worked for both?? You also scoff at the CRJ 200 and F14, just the type of pilot CX would be targeting I would imagine? Strange argument really!!

spud

27th Feb 2007, 07:31

To get back on subject, one more put his letter in yesterday.

Sqwak7700

27th Feb 2007, 08:05

Guys, we whould really be sticking together while we are here. Why is it that all employee groups at Cathay are on each other's throat? That anger needs to be dedicated at someone other than our fellow employees.

I'll admit, each nationality has their own little quirks, but we are all just out there doing the same job. I know you might fly with one guy you don't like that comes from wherever, but don't bunch up everyone from that place as an asshole. I know it is easy to fall into that trap, I've fallen into it myself after some tough sectors, but we really should be looking out for one another.

This thread is about guys leaving. Lets keep it objective. If someone has gripes about cathay, there is nothing wrong with wording them and letting everyone know the reasons why they chose to leave. I think we can agree that most people who read these forums are intelligent adults that realize there are many sides to a story, so no need to go discrediting someone's cathay experience because it is different than yours. Let's not turn this into a ****t-storm (might be a little too late, but we can try).

I know it is corny, but can't we all just get along??? How can one group of people with so much in common disagree so much?:confused:

Night Watch

27th Feb 2007, 08:21

OK.... i agree, everyone take a deep breath.

I don't know how this became a USA versus the rest of the world thread, when it shouldn't be. Let stick together and get our CoS improved so that people (who are obviously good pilots, otherwise they wouldn't be here) stop leaving and start enjoying their time off with their families/girlfriends/hookers from fenwicks.

cheers

Night Watch

27th Feb 2007, 08:23

spud

Out of interest.... what rank was the guy that put in his letter of resignation yesterday?

regretCX

27th Feb 2007, 08:27

Sorry but I've got nothing in common with ACMS.....this idiot is one of the reasons the place being so miserable....

you arrogant :mad: ACMS.........you obviously learned your CRM from Cathay!!!!

CruisingSpeed

27th Feb 2007, 09:18

At least you realised CAN-NOT that the system in HK is there to stay, as someone already mentioned, this place is rotten to the core. Corporate culture and you either put up or ship out, be assured it is not just the Americans who find this extremely irritating and simply unacceptable.

Do not take the attitudes displayed here as typically English, I now work for the UK equivalent of ONEWORLD, and we have very good American colleagues here, who are thankfully very much appreciated and part of the team. Twisted individuals with issues would simply not be allowed to degenerate and display themselves to this extent in the old part of the world, not on the line and also not in management.

Keep it coming ACMS, revealing stuff… :hmm:

spud

27th Feb 2007, 11:09

The chap who resigned yesterday was, I believe, a 400 freighter F/O

CMOTDibler

27th Feb 2007, 12:17

man did this thread get ugly fast!
You guys need to realise that we all have different likes and dislikes and what one of you can't stand the other can abide. Abusing each other over the internet seems a little childish, not to mention ineffectual and a tad insecure. May i suggest that wherever you work you subscribe, as I do, to the two bucket theory.

You have one bucket for money, and one bucket for sh*t, as soon as one of them is full, you leave (the size of the buckets depends on the individual).

Good luck to the guys leaving. Good for them and it can only help the AoA's negotiating position.

Captain TOGA

27th Feb 2007, 13:00

ACMS, let me guess.. You are from Australia, aren't you?

Yeager

27th Feb 2007, 13:32

In general CRM is crap at CX. The Captains - although in genereal very knowledgeable - are put up on a pedestal. One to many CMDs have still not realized, mainly due to lack of ability and education from the company side, that civilavition is no longer a one mans show. Its still common to come across a long sleeved brit (at least on the -400) who thinks his god and that he is flying on the best F...... airplane in the world for the best F...... airline on the best F...... CoS - it might be the best F..... airplane (-400) in the world (and who cares about anything as materialistic as that?!) but boys I've got news (or maybe not!) - it AIN'T the best F...... airline in the world - what leaves us back to where "we" started.. Guys and Girls are LEAVING this outfit - for reasons that is oh so obvious - take a glance through this little "oasis" section - Fragrant Habour - it speaks for it self. The only other "airline" that seems to be pulling an equal amount of **** is Ryanair - and that is for other reasons than this one..
And right - I wonder if that dude who has the guts to hit on Americans (though I can find many other reasons to hit on you guys ;o) ) with pathetic arguments like "go fly your CRJ/F14 etc.." - shows the attitude within CX at its worst!
Im very happy for many of you/us that our industry once again are moving towards new hights - go for the greener grass - its is out there - trust me on that one. If you have the chance to stay "home" (and thats what you want) - do just that and wait for the bigger ones there to call you.
Good luck chaps and gals.
Y

ACMS

27th Feb 2007, 13:37

boy this is fun.

I have no more to say.

Any Brits out there?

christn

27th Feb 2007, 13:43

Yes, but too dignified to join this childish slanging match!

ACMS

27th Feb 2007, 14:26

Actually I do have more to say.
I'm really getting sick and tired of the grownups out there that can't accept the fact that they failed. They keep blaming everyone possible except for themselves. That's right, in most cases ( and there are exceptions ) they can only hold themselves responsible for their problems. If they've been doing their job in Cx for a number of years then any upgrade should be a achievable. The system is not perfect, there are trainers who shouldn't be training but..........an upgrade is achievable to the average guy.
The only way Cx is accountable is in hiring these guys in the first place.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts ..............
The same thing goes for KA command failures. I know a few that failed on their first attempt at command in KA too, they blamed everybody under the sun except themselves. After they passed the second attempt they woke up and accepted they weren't prepared the first time.
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community. Sure there used to be Captains on the 400 that didn't know the first thing about CRM, fortunately just about all of them have long retired and the current bunch are exceptional. It's even better on the 777 fleet. Ask any FO who flies it.
I've worked for 3 major Airlines in a 20+ year career, 14 of those in Cx so I think I have a little perspective. I've flown with Kiwi's, Yanks, Canadians, South Africans, Brits and Australians and it really doesn't matter where they're from it what's inside em that counts.As the yanks like to say "the right stuff" Cx is like any new job, you have to fit in. Now I accept that a few new joiners don't fit in here at Cx. They have a choice, move on or fit in. Quite simple really, but to blame the rest of us here is ludicrous in the extreme. Cx is not a fly by night aeroclub, it didn't just happen overnight. We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft and over 60 years of development in this outfit and still counting, nothing is standing still. This company makes huge money, more money than you can imagine and thay have a well earned reputation. This is FACT, and I'm sorry if I get emotional but to think some 18 month wonder knows all that's wrong with Cx flight ops makes me sick to my stomach. He wouldn't know the first thing about Cx after 18 months.
I'm not sure I'm making sense???????? probaby not!! But you can't blame me for getting a little defensive everytime I hear someone slag off Cx and our "crap standards"
p.s. Don't forget the UA 744 that had an engine failure at VR in SFO, damn near took out the houses because the PF ( FO ) ONLY used ther ailerons to keep it straight while the Captain did ...................................nothing.

the hidden

27th Feb 2007, 14:26

...and ditto all the above for KA. Seems the mother is setting the "standards" for its new puppy, peeing its self with glee for its low cost acquisition. Not crap standards, but crap everything else. Can I leave, no sir those golden handcuffs wont budge boss.....

atyourcervix73

27th Feb 2007, 14:46

I left CX about 4 years ago and have flown UK charter and am now at BA for the very reasons highlighted previously in between the bickering.
I found CX training to be variable at best, confrontational at worst. I achieved the required standard in each and every sim, without negative feedback, by now I would have likely achieved command.
I find it staggering that individuals such as ACMS rant defensively about the indefensible, the CX training department requires the clean broom treatment, it also requires a reality check because without it, there may not be enough junior ranks left to operate an already stretched operating schedule.
Leaving CX opened my eyes to a training environment that actively encourages learning, an environment that is transparent, an environment that recognizes that we are all individuals with strengths an weaknesses.
Reading this thread makes me glad of where I am.

BADRT

27th Feb 2007, 15:50

This guy has made very nasty insults about the U.S. Army needing new chopper pilots and has just felt it appropriate to bring up UAL incident out of SFO almost hitting the hill years ago.

This kind of bias is a perfect example of how Cathay works. I'll give ten to one odds that this fellow is a training, and probably one of the really nasty ones that guys always call in sick for because he can ruin their career progress with the stroke of the computer key typing up the ERAS report after seven glasses of wine in Dakotas. (but I'm sure he is so professional that he doesn't let his opinions affect his objectivity)

And before you throw stones, you might want to talk about the Cx crew who flew a go-around with the autopilot off when they thought it was on, or the crew that almost took a dip in the ocean of runways 07. I've got more, but what is the point. This guy is a complete tool. Too many of his like are in charge.

Hats off to all who leave and plan to leave. Numbers are finally talking!

I'm going to print his posts and keep them in my filing cabinet to take them out if there is ever a day in my life (not likely) that I'll ever regret leaving that fricking place.

These days I am happy to go to work. Less money, work a few more days, but life is good! Life is too short to put your career at the mercy of these tools.

CAN-NOT!!

27th Feb 2007, 18:07

ACMS,

Cathay the highest airline standard in the world? wow!! I didn't think even you would say something that stupid.

newsflash: saying "check" a million times from Top of Descent to touchdown is not the definition of "high standard".

get a clue mate!!

You guys have 7 different manuals where information is repeated EVERYWHERE!! It is by far the MOST disorganized flight ops department I've ever worked for..and CX was my 4th airline!

regretCX

27th Feb 2007, 20:59

ACMS you really have been there too long. I agree with CAN NOT CX is basically a GA company with a nice train set. Their procedures are pathetic. (I still haven't after 8 years been able to get a straight answer from a TC about who should be doing what during the last 100ft of an LVP approach.) I've worked for 3 majors and these guys are by far the worst airline I have worked for. They really have no clue. What is it with you and this "your bitter because you failed an upgrade BS" your probably just bitter because someone YOU failed on a check just happens to have a life!! I think it's time you left CX in search of your life ACMS......

ACMS

28th Feb 2007, 00:20

CAN-NOT: If you re-read my post you will see the following:
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community.
I didn't say Cx was the best, we aint. But we are up there with the best.
RegretCX: seems you never read FCOM 3 for your fleet. Mate I've done probably 26 sim checks with LWMO and another real LWMO approaches in the 400 and 777 and I can tell you it works just fine. The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout the landing roll to call out any problems. What exactly do you find hard about that? It's the same in QF, BA and other Boeing standard airlines. It's not rocket science my friend. If you couldn't get a straight answer from a T/C then either he shouldn't be a T/C or you should learn to ask better questions. ( yes as I said before some T/C's shouldn't be doing it )
I am not a T/C, not enough money offered to offset the 30% increase in work, I'll keep my average lifestyle now and wait for a better roster flying the 300ER and the end of this year.
Cx have come close to CFIT before, no arguments there. By using the UA SFO example I was trying to point out that other Airlines are not perfect either.
Anyway you voted with your feet and for that you should be commended. You have done nothing to hurt the rest of us who FIT IN here at Cx, indeed you may just help us get a little bit more.:ok:
I know that I'm really looking forward to going to work in a few days and I know for a fact the F/O I'm flying with is too.
Cheers, and good luck with your careers.
over and out.

Rock_On

28th Feb 2007, 01:07

ACMS are you God?

19weeler

28th Feb 2007, 01:29

Either God or Gus!! Same thing right?

4PW's

28th Feb 2007, 02:29

Wow!

After a hearty breakfast of fried eggs on toast with slightly burned but otherwise nicely fried tomatoes, complimented, at regular intervals, with ice-cold orange juice, I looked about for something to do.

There's the vaccumming, or I could clean the toilets; I might make my bed, or I might also read the newspaper, an almost archaic ritual.

Deciding to go with the proven maxim that one should never do now what can safely be put off till tomorrow, I turned on the kettle.

Feeling quite content with a nice old cup of tea, I sat down to peruse the Fragrant Harbor Forum in order that I might be more aware of how my bretheren are doing up there in Asia's World (and most polluted) City.

The thread did seem to drift off-course on Page Four, didn't it......:}

I recall taking a cab in the very early 90's to Sheikh Zayed Road's Crowne Plaza to call on a Cathay Pacific colleague, who I didn't know from Adam, for a coffee in his hotel's lounge, wherein we discussed the merits of joining CX - all the way back then!

To wit, I took his advice and remained with my employer of the time, not even filling out the application form that was eventually posted to me.

I earned my four bars some time thereafter, and though the going has been tough since, both there and at my new place of employment, it has never been like that described at CX, now on the PPRuNe or back then in the coffee lounge.

The internet is, as Tom Friedman punches home in 'The World is Flat', an extraordinary tool.

Some say the PPRuNe is full of bombast and bluster.

There's some truth to that, and although we often take what we want to read or hear from a circumstance, I for one feel the PPRuNe, used wisely and with caution, can be very revealing indeed.

kanot

28th Feb 2007, 03:16

We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft
The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout

Wow a whole 2100 Pilots and 100 Aircraft. There are Airlines who have laid off more than this and who are re-hiring, so in reality CX is barely playing in the real world!
Obviously a Captain who has had the chips on both shoulders inserted by those clever men on floor three, lets keep up with the terms shall we, PF and PM, or has it changed in the last few days?
LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!

CAN-NOT!!

28th Feb 2007, 04:05

Guys,
I regret sounding a bit harsh on the last few posts on here as that is not the intent! I only responded to this thread in the first place because it applies to me, since I left. Did not mean to make it a "yank" vs. anybody else thing. Many have left, but certainly not EVERYONE was an American. There are fair shares of Europeans leaving as well. Some back to old jobs and some to other LCC in Europe. But Mr. ACMS only thinks CX is losing pilots because us "yanks" can not handle the CATHAY WAY. Everyone who has left can handle it. We just chose not to put up with it.

Last thing I want to say is I hope things will improve at CX for the better, but I better not take the risk of offending our senior A scalers who still think CX is heaven on earth therefore no change is ever needed!

Hey, we didn't want to put up and shut up so we packed up and left. It was a nice train set, too bad a bunch of brats own it.

C-152Captain

28th Feb 2007, 05:10

I joined CX in Aug. of 2004 as S/O (still no upgrading in sight!). So far, of the 8 that started together, there's only 2 left.

One guy left 1 week after his LFUS.
One guy (last guy's sim partner) went to EasyJet after 1 year
One guy went to JetStar after 2 years
One guy went UPS after 2 years
One guy bailed after they extended his probation to 2 years
One guy went back to fly corporate after 2 years

Bad thing is all these people were all "junior" to me! I didn't even gain anything out of it. Bummer!!

I CAN'T WIN. BLOODY HELL

ACMS

28th Feb 2007, 06:37

Rock_On:----- nope not god, the jobs taken by someone else. Maybe Gus has it?
kanot:------- Let me get this straight, you'd like the FO heads up at the DA of around 50' to 150' at 150 kts in 20 kts crosswind with 200 m vis making the decision to land/go-around? How do you think that would look in a subsequent court of law? "so Captain why did you let the FO fly the plane when most clearly it should have been you"?
There is a time and a place for the FO to fly and another when the Captain must fly. I'm not being a ****** and saying that the FO couldn't do it, it's just that I get paid to be the A/C commander not him. Besides I like to make my own stuff ups and don't need the FO to make them for me in such a critical situation as LWMO.Why don't you ask an insurance assessor what he thinks.
You FO's will have your day soon enough, I spent 15 years as an FO in 3 different Airlines and you didn't hear me saying this crap.
Now go away and do a little growing up boys.

BusyB

28th Feb 2007, 06:54

CAN-NOT

"LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!"

No, This is a team effort operated by a crew. If you don't understand that its no wonder you've had problems. Personaly, I still feel that the original monitored approach by BA is the best system for LWMO (where the FO flys the aircraft to DA and goes around unless the Captain says "LAND" and has has control).

For those interested in BA their failure rate has gone up considerably since Hamble closed. Like all jobs if you get on the dragside you're going to have to work to get back on top.:=

regretCX

28th Feb 2007, 07:05

I thought this LVP stuff was all very straight forward at Cathay? Why are we still debating this point? It, according to ACMS is all very straight forward. :ugh: :ugh: Oh and by the way ACMS I'm probably older than you anyway so lighten up on the "grow up sonny" ****e. You're not impressing me one bit!! You just really show us how much of a tosser you really are. Iv'e probably flown with you and waved goodbye with relief as we've left the terminal. Flying with you sounds as appealing as a barbed wire enema.

ACMS

28th Feb 2007, 08:48

Well I'm a lot older than I look:(
Not one 777 FO I have ever flown with has ever left CX.
Infact I quite often get guys bid for the same trips to fly with me, we have a blast on the line. You my friend are missing out.:ok:
oh and LWMO is quite straight forward, as is any approach using Cx std calls and proceedures. Maybe you should check with Qf, they have different calls for different approaches. Something a Qf mate tells me is quite a pain in the ass.

Five Green

28th Feb 2007, 09:27

Acms: I assume you mean voluntarily as I know a few who have had the decision made for them !

FG

ACMS

28th Feb 2007, 09:44

Five green:- I assume you are responding to my comment that no FO I ever flew with has left Cx????? No FO that I have flown with in Cx has ever left the company either voluntarily or otherwise.
Bye the way.........I fully support any Cx Pilot leaving to get a better job, if they can do it then fantastic for them. This applies to any nationality.

regretCX

28th Feb 2007, 10:41

Well if you're so content and FO's are falling over themselves to fly with you (have a look in the mirror mate) then you really don't need to be on this website venting your spleen. You should be at the bar surrounded by the adoring ladies and the other guys that just wish they were you.:yuk: :yuk:

Maybe Not.

PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!

Nullaman

28th Feb 2007, 10:55

In the early days of this thread I had hoped that the initial adult discussion of why folk were leaving would produce some useful indicators of what is going wrong. Instead (as usual unfortunately) it has been hijacked by the angry brigade. I cannot believe that work colleagues stoop to mud-slinging, in the public domain, in a way that now more resembles a school playground. Maybe it is just a vociferous minority - maybe not.

Nevertheless it is as well to remember that this is not a closed circuit CX board - it is in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Time to look in the mirror perhaps?

'nuff said.

regretCX

28th Feb 2007, 11:00

What a load of nancy BS Nulla.............what ever is said here is the truth......you know we can't all get together in the plaza and nut it out......................this is the only place we can vent!!! I also heard a 777 pax FO has left recently...............................

Numero Crunchero

28th Feb 2007, 12:08

Definitely a vociferous minority!

If I was a new joiner would I consider leaving? Absolutely!

Why? Well, the last pay rise was 6 years ago. Despite CPI figures the cost of living has gone up dramatically since then no matter where you live. Over the last few years the USD/HKD has severely devalued against the many countries our pilots come from. The threat of RA60 delaying upgrades for a few years is more disconcerting than the 'bonus' of being able to work for an extra 5 years. HKG pollution is getting worse. Out workload has gone up almost 20% over the last 6 years...based on aircraft orders it is quite possible that a further increase in productivity will be required although this may lead to some overtime!

Why do many of us stay?
Well there is the obvious 'sunk cost' bias...we have already done a few years and we would be throwing that away. For aussies and kiwis the options are arguably much worse than CX now! Euros and yanks have many more options.

The point of this thread was to discuss why people leave. I still have no problem recommending CX to aussies(we aren't so bright) as I think it is the best option going for aussies.

As CX has been pushing for over a decade....MARKET FORCES. Personally I like seeing people leave(especially try hard and regret cx) as it means things might improve here and/or may put upward pressure on salary! But unfortunately many of our competitors have been offering salary and conditions inferior to us for many years (I am obviously ignoring some of the Euro LCC and US carriers). The chapter 11 sagas from the states have fed an insatiable airline appetite for hungry pilots but it appears, finally, the pendulum is beginning to swing the other way!

Try hard and regret cx...I dont have a problem with you leaving...I have a problem with what appears to be "I'm right, you are all idiots for staying" attitude. I can assure you I CHOOSE to stay...I dont think it is perfect in CX...it is just that my **** bucket isn't full yet...and my $$ bucket is nearly empty thanks to a mistimed divorce;-) So I will stay until my **** bucket gets full as that is far more likely than the $$ bucket ever being full. But there is more to life than money.

Viva la tolerance...why is it so important to have everyone agree with you? Accept that CX can drive some people crazy whilst people like me just laugh at the foibles of the system. I guess I work to live, not live to work, so maybe that is why I am so much more tolerant?!

I can't control what CX do...I cannot change how C+T is carried out...what I can do is control the environment in my cockpit (one advantage of the 4 stripes). For the 4 stripe challenged...you cant change what happens to you, you can only change your reaction to it! If you fly with someone you dont like, just remember it is only for a few hours. You dont have to socialise with him (I just realised why I am always alone on overnights!)...life is too short to let some 4bar or the system get you down.

Flying can be fun...lighten up. If CX isn't for you, move on. But dont piss on everyone that CHOOSES to stay!

D.B. Escapee

28th Feb 2007, 12:13

How come when a pilot leaves for another fleet or retires does the Chief Pilot make mention of it in their fleet news....but when they leave to go back to their old airline (or are fired), no mention, no accolades.
"FO Smith leaves us after 13 months of service to try to salvage whats left of his dignity. Good luck to him at his old job as a check captain at United..."

Captain TOGA

28th Feb 2007, 13:14

ACMS, liar liar.... P D left and I assume you have flown with him.

ACMS

28th Feb 2007, 13:37

Capt TOGA: as a matter of fact I never flew with PD, ot TP or the other 777 FO's that went to VB. Sorry to dissappoint ya but I'm not a liar liar.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you?
Regret Cx: Well if you're so content and FO's are falling over themselves to fly with you (have a look in the mirror mate) then you really don't need to be on this website venting your spleen. You should be at the bar surrounded by the adoring ladies and the other guys that just wish they were you
I didn't say that did i? I am here defending the Cx system from you bunch slagging off crap, I didn't start this thread boyoh.
PS I notice you have tried to qualify your QF boast. I am still open eared to your BA LVP assessment!! Be careful, sometimes BS can come back and bite you on the ass!!
My Qf boast???? what the hell are you smoking?????? I have about 5 close friends in Qf ( 3 are Captians and 2 FO's ) and only yesterday the topic of standard calls on approach came up with one of them, it appears they have different calls for visual approaches, LWMO approaches and normal ILS approaches. That's what he told me after he asked me what we do in Cx. So tell me what do BA do then?
This is getting a little stupid don't you think????? You left Cx, we stayed. Now it's time to move on emotionally don't you think? you must learn to let it go or it will destroy you. Get on with your life.
:ok:

Five Green

28th Feb 2007, 16:25

Capt TOGA: as a matter of fact I never flew with PD, ot TP or the other 777 FO's that went to VB. Sorry to dissappoint ya but I'm not a liar liar.
You know what happens when you ASSUME don't you? So what if no one you actually flew with quit ! What are you the great equalizer ?

The fact is this airline is going to have to move to a more modern way of thinking if it wants to grow. You cannot continue the present training and management system as the pilot numbers grow. The system will only alianate more and more FOs. You may notice that once you are a Captain here life is good. Hence ACMS and NC etc are pretty happy. For those of us taking the most of the abuse from the left seat and from the training department life is not so good. No surprise FOs and SOs are leaving.

When will the commercial side wake up to the problems that the training department is creating ?

FG

Captain TOGA

28th Feb 2007, 16:44

No FO that I have flown with in Cx has ever left the company either voluntarily or otherwise.
But I thought Pattie left, didn't he? And it sounds like you have flown with him on the 777.

act700

28th Feb 2007, 18:08

What I don't understand is why you guys are at each other's throats over this.
Are you guys seriously hoping that management will peruse this forum and realize, "Oh, $hit, we've got to do something-quick."
I know some pretty naiive people, but...

If it is really that bad, wouldn't it make sense to stand up as a GROUP, and voice one's displeasures to the right channels?
Now you're going to say, "Ah, that won't work", or, "We've tried", or something like that.
The way I see it, if you're gonna walk, why not go out with a bang. I mean, you're going to leave anyway, right?

The grass all over the world has brown spots on it!

C-152Captain

28th Feb 2007, 18:26

ACT700,

We are too afraid of getting sacked for doing that. I've never lived under communism, but I think Cathay is pretty close! Speaking up at Cathay Pacific is a death wish!

One of the high ranking Flight Operations manager is Phil Walker and his nickname is "Kim Jong Phil". Can you venture a guess? Like I said..these boys run the company like it was a Communist outfit.

Actually to be fair, the boys DID STAND UP, then the Company introduced the infamous 49ers, then we've been shut ever since. (re-enactment of Tinenimen Square)

To last a long time at Cathay Pacific, you must KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

Just my two hongky dollars.

BADRT

28th Feb 2007, 21:47

Several pages back, ACMS made some seriously nasty comments about dead U.S. chopper pilots in Iraq. You didn't manage to answer that post I made commenting about that I made earlier. Political beliefs aside, you are laughing at people who are dead and gone, with families left behind to grieve.
has the air in Hong Kong finally rotted your brain and deprived you of any honor or sensibilities whatsoever, or are you just a provacateur who enjoys stirring up people here?
Your comments were serious, and if you ever would say that in my presence, there would be a problem. Lucky you can stay anonymous and stir things up. I'll bet you are STC. Go to hell. Go to hell Cathay. This is my last post. Tools like ACMS are not worth my time. I don't care if I get kicked out. You are a s.o.b.

Administrator..... please cancel my access permanently.

CAN-NOT!!

28th Feb 2007, 21:50

He probably did his flight training in the U.S. too. ACMS that is.

Max Reheat

1st Mar 2007, 01:05

Well, I have sat here for the last hour or so and read through the ranting on this thread. Clearly there are some unhappy people out there and some (if not many) are about to do something about it.
Good luck to them, I really do wish them well. I hope the grass is as green as it appears from this side of the fence.
It would appear that much of the dissatisfaction rests at the door of the C&T department.
No names, clearly, but would you guys mind identifying the fleet or fleets in question because I'm afaraid I just don't see it on the Airbus or B777. Maybe I'm looking through rose tinted spectacles.
ACMS has taken a bit of a bashing for what he has written. Give the guy a break, he is a lone voice floating in a sea of villification trying to defend what he loves.
We all accept that things need to improve with respect to CoS, but honestly some of this gnashing of teeth will get us nowhere.
Now... you gentlemen/ladies who post from other companies having once worked for CX. I read your posts with interest, however none of you explain why you truly left CX. The venomous thins you say are of no help to anyone. Please, if you have something contsructive to add to the forum then do so, otherwise act with grace and honour and keep you private gripes to yourselves.

regretCX

1st Mar 2007, 01:19

If you really need to ask people why they left then you have got your rose coloured specs on. The reasons for leaving are too numerous to list and are really quite obvious if you scroll through this thread again. If you like I'll shortlist a few.

****** Trainers
****** management
****** Captains
Crap staff travel
Crap medical
Crap leave system
Crap request system
Crap rosters
Crap hotels
Polluted air
Poisonous working environment
endless BS to get in the LHS
four different pay scales
rife nepotism
poor treatment of S/O's
having to deal with those mutants in Crew Control

(out of breath, but that will be good for a start)

Let me guess you're an A scaler right? And only spent 3 years in the right seat before you had a few sectors of beers with one of your ex-airforce buddies and then just tootled on your way to "commander":yuk: .

Times have changed mate.....Let me tell you it ain't no party any more!

cpdude

1st Mar 2007, 01:38

I too have sat here reading the rants, most of them I will not comment on.

regretCX, you have compiled a lengthy list of reasons CX is not the perfect airline and I can't argue with you with that. Do I hope things will change...absolutely! Do I think things will change...only maybe.

If you asked me a week ago what I thought, I would have told you that CX is screwed and in 12-24 months they will be parking many aircraft. Now I'm not so sure. I think the lucky b*stards might be landing on their feet again.

Yesterday the markets had a major correction. Many believe today is the calm before a bigger storm. Also, the US overstated its growth in 2006 by 1/3rd. That is huge! If we are on the doorstep of a major recession then the massive growth CX planned and can't cope with can be cancelled. They will dodge another bullet.

Those leaving CX are leaving many problems but also a secure job. They can have a great job with United but will they get furloughed next year or the year after? Who knows but that is one of the very few advantages with CX.

Just my two cents worth!:)

CAN-NOT!!

1st Mar 2007, 02:26

Cathay Pacific a secure job?? Don't tell that to the 49ers!!

Let me log off and have a laugh..

ACMS

1st Mar 2007, 02:32

Read my lips...............( i know you can't :) )

"I have never flown with P D", but from what others say it would have been a great trip, my loss.

Maybe it's time I stopped reacting to the crap you guys put forward. As soon as I defend myself you sling more crap:* A lose lose situation for me.

cpdude

1st Mar 2007, 02:59

Good one CAN-NOT! :ugh:

49 pilots fired so it's generally considered a very unsecure job. Tell that to the thousands that have been furloughed in the USA over the past 5 years!:eek:

CX...go to work...do your job...a job for life! Lots of problems and frustrations with the job but still a job for life. Or you can be happy for 3-8 years at a US pax airline until the next furlough.

Go to UPS, go to FedEx, maybe even SWA but don't leave CX for the US pax majors...not now!

CAN-NOT!!

1st Mar 2007, 04:43

You'd rather be sacked than furloughed? :D :D

cpdude

1st Mar 2007, 04:58

I would rather take my chances of being one of 49 than one of thousands! Do the math!:eek: :rolleyes:

regretCX

1st Mar 2007, 05:11

Bend over and take it whenever they like it = a job for life.......
Say yes = a job for life
Smile and say more sir= a job for life.

I'm sorry but I have a little bit more to offer than that. I don't want to get to the end of my career and say "thank god that's over". I'd like to enjoy the ride. Working for CX makes me feel like a $2 hooker recieving regular beatings from my pimp Mr Rhodes for not bending over far enough......

Sorry but I ain't anyone's biatch..............

You can ban me again now, I've had my say this month!!!!!

See ya in :ok: April

Five Green

1st Mar 2007, 05:20

CP DUDE saya: I would rather take my chances of being one of 49 than one of thousands! Do the math! Total pilots aprox 990, 49 fired = 4% total pilots. UAL 8000 + pilots, 4% = 320 pilots. Gee looks to me to be similar numbers. Not to mention no rehire, tarnished resume, and black listing. Furlough affects people in reverse seniority and while not good on any level at least you know when you are vunerable. Here , we are vulnerable until the day we retire or leave.

Happy thoughts happy thoughts...........

FG

Captain TOGA

1st Mar 2007, 12:45

ACMS, If you never have flown with him why did you then post this: Pat is one of the most professional aviators I have ever had the pleasure of flying with. So keep the comments nice.

Good on ya Paddy D

ACMS

1st Mar 2007, 13:10

Capt TOGA:- that statement is true. However, I have never flown with PD in Cx.
Get the difference bud?
I'm impressed though.:ok:

Anyway, even if I had flown with PD in Cx it doesn't change the basis of my argument. PD left Cx to join a fast growing Airline to get a rapid command ( which he achieved in under 2 years ) He did not leave because he hated Cx or our standards here.

CAN-NOT!!

1st Mar 2007, 13:55

ACMS,

You can't resist taking a stab at us yanks can you?

dogleg

1st Mar 2007, 15:05

Can-not & regretCX:

Don't you guys have anything better to do than to sling mud?

I, for one, am glad you left -- it would be a long day to be stuck on the flight deck with you miserable :mad:

cpdude

1st Mar 2007, 15:37

FG, stats are what ever you want them to say especially when you use wrong numbers. I have a friend who was hired at the end of 2000 and he was high in the 1200's so 990 is sure wrong for the summer of 01.

After 9/11 there were over 8000 furloughed pilots in the USA alone. How many did we have in CX? None!

United furloughed 2,172 pilots which reached 10+ years of service. So actually, your post is so full of un-truths you should retract it unless it was meant as a spoof!

As for CX re-hires, I believe over 80% were offered and most elected to say no.:bored:

Don't get me wrong...CX is a lousy place to work but I stand by with my opinion that it is secure.

CAN-NOT!!

1st Mar 2007, 21:02

Cpdude,

8000 furloughs in the USA vs. Zero furlough in Hong Kong.

Where did the towers collapse on 9/11? U.S. or Hong Kong? What exactly are you comparing?? And thanks for keep bringing up some of the worst events in this country's history as the basis for your argument. You're a real class act.

I wouldn't be too vocal mate, you guys may be dealt with another rounds of SARS and the BIRD FLU thing. Don't brag too loudly about CX's record, they didn't furlough you last time because they didn't need to.

It took an extraordinary event for our people to lose their jobs (temporarily). It can just take a bag of peanuts for you guys to lose your jobs permanently.

Good luck mate!

cpdude

1st Mar 2007, 21:23

What was I thinking!:eek:

Thought I could have a rational or reasonable conversation but the newbie's just want to attack.

I'll leave this thread to those angry newbie's that have nothing better to do.:8 :}

regretCX

1st Mar 2007, 21:23

No furlough, but it didn't stop them taking our money with that stupid SLS scam. It was voluntary wasn't it? The only catch was that if you didn't agree to it you would have been sacked. No, no furlough for CX, there are other ways of keeping an airline afloat during hard times. Namely robbing your staff!!

CAN-NOT!!

1st Mar 2007, 21:26

Newbie?

You mean newly freed?

Or perhaps, even a new happy escapee? You make the pick, but newbie wouldn't be appropriate as I have gotten my ticket out of town.

Five Green

2nd Mar 2007, 01:34

CP Dude:

First off I ain't no newbie by a long stretch.

Secondly I did not say that those were actual numbers. What I was trying to point out (albeit rather poorly) is that 4% of our pilots being fired IS ALOT. To furlough 4% UAL is looking at 300+ pilots. It would have to be another 9/11 for it to be that bad at every major in the US. With the US economy forecast for moderate growth this year I do not see any signiificant recession on the horizon either.

So which is more likely ? Further industrial strife here or massive terrorist action within the US ? ....hmmmm

So please spare me the retoric about untruths. Speaking of untruths get your facts about the 49ers straight. All were offered a CHANCE to come back, in return for giving up the law suits. As a group they said no, we (the AOA) then forced the deal on them. Then the co. chose a few they liked and turned down those they did not. I have friends who wanted to come back and were not accepted. ALOT worse than furlough, as the emotional stress is considerably higher.

Since I joined I have seen 4 captains fired, 6 Fos fired, and 3 Sos fired. I have also seen 4 Captains demoted and alot of FOs catb'd. All of these things must be factored against the risk of being furloughed. These are just the ones I know about. I am sure there are more. I would rather be furloughed after 10 years than fired, or so fed up that you quit anyway. It results in the same thing -looking for work-. Only difference is while you are employed, the enjoyment factor in a US major is got to be better than here. Greenish brown grass or not.

FG

Rainwater

2nd Mar 2007, 05:40

United furloughed 2,172 pilots which reached 10+ years of service. Cpdude you have some untruths as well.....
2172 Correct, 10+ years of service NOT CORRECT! Closer to 4 1/2 yrs service when the furloughs stopped. I have a friend who works there, hired late summer 98' and was not furloughed. United's junior capt is a 97 hire, fyi.

murdoch_disliker

2nd Mar 2007, 14:33

Just out of pure curiosity, what is the nationality/aviation background of these Cathay trainers that cause so much grief to the poor line guys. Is it homogeneous bunch, or a mixed bunch. This is a fascinating topic as there is absolutely no need for this kind of philosophy in todays aviation environment.

Numero Crunchero

2nd Mar 2007, 16:33

qx747pilot,
Reading the posts here at pprune you would think that every C+T trip is a nightmare. Well, I have been nervous and anxious(self induced) before every check but the majority have been stress free. I have to say that almost 95-99% of any negative feedback has been justified.

Most of my checks for the last few years have been done by guys that were in C+T when I was an FO! So it makes me wonder what has changed. Has there been some corporate philosphy change? Or have the C+T'ers suddenly got angry or unforgiving? I feel that the checks have been consistent over the last decade on both sides of my command.

I dont know why there have been so many problems over the last few years. I think it is a complicated issue...for example, CX used to be a 'check' airline as it had mostly very experienced people joining. Now it is becoming a 'training' airline but it takes time for the corporate culture to change.

I can say this with absolute certainty...the absolute vast majority that think it is ok here and just get on with it, whilst being aware of CX's shortfalls, have very little problem with the upgrades. Those that notice each and every imperfection seem to continuously have problems. I am not trying to infer that being the 'squeaky wheel' will delay upgrades. I am trying to suggest that having a positive attitude is highly correlated to success within CX. Not a 'kiss-ass' attitude...more of the 'take responsibility for one's own f*#$ups attitude'. Yes there is inconsistency between trainers...one tells you to taxi on the centre line and accept the bumps, the next tells you to taxi off centreline to avoid bumps. The checker will invariably prefer the opposite to what you do. So what? Grow up! Wow, the world isn't always fair. The guys that whinge the most should go to some job that has absolute certainty of right and wrong with no variation...the "Stop/Go" sign holder on road works maybe!!!!

You dont have to read "The power of positive thinking" every day to get by here. Just get on with life...accept that sometimes, hopefully rarely, you will be hard done by(I have). If you decide before you come here that C+T at CX will be a problem, I guarantee you it will be a problem.

No one has ever accused me of being chuck yeager and yet I have got through mostly unscathed by the same C+T guys that others complain about. Unlike some posters here I have been subjected to these guys on multiple occasions.

So mr anti-rupert murdoch, it is difficult to answer your question. I haven't seen any trend in my past or to the gripes I hear about from FOs. Maybe it is a case of just being uncomfortable with any C+T being a different nationality from our own?

jtr

2nd Mar 2007, 17:22

NC, would I be correct in guessing you joined on the Tristar/Jurrasic then went to the bus not too long after, and have been on it ever since?

Penske

2nd Mar 2007, 23:23

The purpose of this short posting is to reach out to any potential new-joiner reading this thread. It would be natural to think twice about Cathay given the comments by regretCX and others.

In my opinion, the most accurate single-paragraph summary of what is required at Cathay is contained within the post above by numero crunchero:

I can say this with absolute certainty...the absolute vast majority that think it is ok here and just get on with it, whilst being aware of CX's shortfalls, have very little problem with the upgrades. Those that notice each and every imperfection seem to continuously have problems. I am not trying to infer that being the 'squeaky wheel' will delay upgrades. I am trying to suggest that having a positive attitude is highly correlated to success within CX. Not a 'kiss-ass' attitude...more of the 'take responsibility for one's own f*#$ups attitude'.

I could not agree more.

CAN-NOT!!

3rd Mar 2007, 01:05

"take responsibility of one's **** up".

You're not allowed have any **** up as a Cathay Pacific pilot.

asianeagle

3rd Mar 2007, 02:27

I have had a few f:mad: k ups, I am still here!
Less time whinging and more time focussing on the job and you will be ok. I think they call it 'error recovery' :ok:

Penske

3rd Mar 2007, 02:29

Everyone makes errors. The idea is not to let that error rattle you so that you make further errors.

You may make a 3 or worse during a checkride, but look at that as an opportunity for a 5 on error recovery.

You have moved on though, so why not enjoy your own green grass and stop pissing on ours?

junior_man

3rd Mar 2007, 02:34

what the hell was this thread about?
Oh yes, why they were leaving....

Some people are going for more money at UPS some returning to former employers. As the idea of being based back in their home country was more appealing. Some didn't get along with some of the trainers. Some had family issues. I have actually spoken to some of them.

Yes it is a bit different here. Doesn't mean it isn't possible to enjoy it (although reading the stuff here would make you doubt it). It is also not for everybody. It is different than working back in your home country. Different culture than other airlines too. But it works just fine for many, not so well for others.
Some things could certainly be improved, but that can be said about most airlines.

sisyphos

3rd Mar 2007, 06:43

do not believe N.C. !

Training in CX is absolutely terrible, degrading, unfair and simply ridiculous. the vast majority would agree on that ( especially FO's) , no doubt at all.

anyone interested in joining should really get as much information as possible before making a decision, I personally would not do the move twice.

beechbum

3rd Mar 2007, 07:03

From an outsider looking in......... it's unbelievable fellas. Cannot believe that adults sling mud at each other like it has been going on through out this thread. Certainly alot of handbags being thrown (with the mud attached)!!!
C'mon can the topic not resume it's initial title...'how many are leaving???'
If you hate the place leave....if you love it......stay....if you have to throw your handbags at each other then open another thread and bash CX, it's training, it's SOP's, it's Captains...and whatever else, to your hearts content. Amazing really and you claim to be professionals!!!:rolleyes:
Ummm really sucks!!!
Better duck, cos I can see a handbag flying my way!

"Confotare esto vir"..................:ok:

Stuck_in_an_ATR

3rd Mar 2007, 11:17

No matter who's closer to the truth here, this mud flying around is to say the least disturbing (for a new joiner wannabe) - I think it has to do with the general atmosphere in the company?

treholer

3rd Mar 2007, 12:53

Does it not seem that CAN-NOT and regretCX are actually the same person?

hog tied

3rd Mar 2007, 18:22

Well,

They are 100% accurate in their views, and I am neither.

BusyB

3rd Mar 2007, 18:40

I have to say that whereas there are a few poor trainers and checkers it is a small proportion and about the same proportion as in my previous life in a bigger airline. The difference is in thestar chamber system that does not seem to have any balancing oversight.

I would say 90% of pilots go through their career in CX without any major hiccups, only minor ones that ensure you stay on the ball.:ok:

Standing by for incoming!!:eek:

A/T less

3rd Mar 2007, 22:24

Heard last week there's 4 S/Os putting in their notice for Oasis. Does anyone know if Oasis does not have the Cathay style management?

(CPDUDE, I know how to use search function just chose not to).

ACMS

5th Mar 2007, 06:26

Just home from another wonderful trip on the mighy 777. God I love this job:ok: We had a good, safe, relaxing fun time out in the real world. The FO said he never reads PPrune, I wonder why??????
Time for all of you ex Cx types to get on with your lives in whatever place you find yourselves in. ****ting on our parade has not worked, we actually enjoy it here. So please leave us alone. You can't change the past , so try to change your future. Something you might actually have a little control over.
regards to all.

BeforeStart

5th Mar 2007, 10:28

ACMS:
I´m an outsider looking in and I simply can´t understand why you are so obsessed with selling your version of Cathay as the only true version.

Why is it you can´t accept that other people have a different opinion? In one of your previous posts you made it sound like you were being persecuted by other posters when in fact you started the whole thing with your remarks about yanks, UA and the like.

And why are you so obsessed with telling everyone what wonderfull a trip you´ve just had and that people of a different opinion can go home?

Why don´t you accept that we live in a world where people are entitled to have an opinion that might not be the same as you have?

And no, I´m not a yank, I´ve never applied to Cathay and I´ve never failed a check. I´m just a mere NARROW-body SH captain.

Fr8t M8te

5th Mar 2007, 11:14

Funny ol' thing.

B4start posts at 1128 and regretCX is right on to it 5 mins later.

An airline is what you make of it. People are big enough and ugly enough to make their own decisions. regretCX Do you not think that you are very much a square peg in a round hole if you are indeed working for CX? I wonder what recruiting were thinking about if they really did employ you? Now kindly p*ss off home and cry in mom's apron before you soil your diapers again.

ACMS

5th Mar 2007, 12:04

Holy smokes there are some weird people out there.
I went to work, actually enjoyed the trip and came home. What is the big deal about that? It doesn't mean I fully support Cx all they screw us with. Quite the opposite but after all the negative postings about Cx and our operation in here by Regretcx and others I'm trying to put a little perspective into the argument.
You all need to get a life.

Numero Crunchero

5th Mar 2007, 14:11

yes jtr, joined on the 'queen of the skies' and then airbus a few years later. Why do you ask?

I really dont understand why you are posting regretcx/cannot. I guess if you truly believe CX is that bad you are trying to do future new joiners a favour. But would they listen or believe you? Would you have not joined after reading a few posts on PPRUNE?

I enjoyed being an FO in this company...a position I held for around 9years. I can count on one hand the number of a#$hole captains I flew with. This includes check and trainers.

I dont think I will ever change your mind about CX nor can you change my mind. I am a pragmatist...I work here as I like the job and I like the money. I would like more money and less work but I haven't worked out how to achieve that yet;-)

You know regretcx/cannot, I was happy before I joined CX, I am happy in CX and I will be happy after CX. I wish I could say the same for you two.

CAN-NOT!!

5th Mar 2007, 16:18

Numo Cruncho/cpdude/ACMS.

Same person!! And why do I believe this? Because in the time I spent in CX..I never met 3 people that liked the place.

cpdude

5th Mar 2007, 17:44

Because in the time I spent in CX..I never met 3 people that liked me.

I think I quoted you correctly! Sad...very sad.:8

christn

5th Mar 2007, 18:22

It must be time to have our own CX forum within PPRuNe restricted to registered users only. I am ashamed to be associated with some of the characters here.

CAN-NOT!!

5th Mar 2007, 18:56

It must be time to have our own CX forum within PPRuNe restricted to registered users only. I am ashamed to be associated with some of the characters here.

hey that's a good idea. that way all the kool-aid drinkers can speak among yourselves and and the public will be spared from all the lies you guys spread about CATHAY PACFIFIC.

CAN---"got any ride reports at flight level three four oh" NOT!!

poydras

5th Mar 2007, 22:55

It has been intresting to see the different point of views in this post.
I don' t work for CX( I do have an interview soon though).
I want just to say that I work as Cpt for a regional airline in the US and trust me they give you 7 sim session and if you are not "ready" by sim 5 you are basically out. No extra sim or help.
they send a company check guy (for session 5 ) which perform as seat fill and preatty much eveluates you. If you make 2-3 mistakes you are shoot down without vaseline.

My instructor (ex US airforce)for example was a screamer. His debrief were something like that: Well, that' s where you f*** up. Do it better tomorrow.No pointers, incentives or a single word of encouragement. So i did pass first shoot.But nobody helped.And this is at a REGIONAL level on the EMB 145.

Arrogance, power trips etc. are everywhere. I am not justifying any bad instructor or Check airman here if their behaviour is arrogant or God like.but everywhere you go there will be always a Cpt. a Check Air. harrassing you.So you got to face with professionality and try to get the most out of every sim and debrief session.Keep a positive attitude and pray.

After all to be the A/c commander is not just exhibiting flying skills.There is more than that. I am sure you all know.....

In the old country you couldn' t even address the Cpt. by his first name for God sake.Had to be always CPt+ surname.

On a side note, that instructor of mine eventually got on UPS. And guess what? he berely passed after he was jerked around by an old crusty retired navy pilot (which was his Check Airm.) ah ah ah ah..
drink a lot of water and eat figs........................

Ps forgive the form I am not american or of english mother tongue.
Saluti

7FF

6th Mar 2007, 00:01

cristn wrote:

It must be time to have our own CX forum within PPRuNe restricted to registered users only. I am ashamed to be associated with some of the characters here.

I very much agree. Who can arrange this?

Numero Crunchero

6th Mar 2007, 02:10

I have heard that much of the problem with some of our pilots is due to an entitlement mentality. They have felt it is their entitlement to be upgraded. It is their entitlement to have a smooth run and not have any difficult flights, sims or reserves.

Personally, I haven't seen it on the line. But some posters on PPRUNE make me think there is something to it.

Most of us here at CX had to work pretty hard to get in. Then we worked hard to get upgraded. Just like they do in every other airline on earth. So what is so different about us regret/cannot?

Falling on disdainful rhetoric to argue ones case is indicative of a weak logical position. Why 'play the ball when you can play the man' seems to be their motto.

If you have anything useful to say then say it. And before your vitriol begins anew, I have only one handle on PPRUNE, I dont drink Koolaid, I am not a TC, I do not hang around the 3rd floor. I am finding it difficult to give you any benefit of the doubt as you constantly flaunt the rule "better to be thought the fool and keep your mouth shut than open your mouth and confirm it".

Now onto the original topic, please keep posting the numbers of people going and where they go to...I cant find that info in crews news;-)

PS if anyone has 2 job positions vacant elsewhere, I know that there are at least 2 angry pilots dieing to leave here.

jtr

6th Mar 2007, 02:21

yes jtr, joined on the 'queen of the skies' and then airbus a few years later. Why do you ask?
I enjoyed being an FO in this company...a position I held for around 9years. I can count on one hand the number of a#$hole captains I flew with. This includes check and trainers.

You went to the Airbus when everyone was new to it, i.e. No pedantic know it all rottweiler poison dwarf forbe bar a55hole types (I hear the times have changed), did your upgrade with trainers/checkers who had "grown up" on the fleet, just like yourself. Your training and check experiences for the majority of your career (transition to le bus, and command) are not like those most experience at the present time. I too joined the bus when it was in it's infancy.

Not taking a stance on your CX rules/CXsucks debate, just pointing out that your oakleys may have a rosey tint.

19weeler

6th Mar 2007, 04:36

We used to have our own forum under the aoa.
It was called CPRUNE. But, our insidious union shut it down under the auspice of legal ramifications due to "defamatory remarks" made there. All to help forward their agenda of getting the 49er deal passed.
RIP aoa!

BusyB

6th Mar 2007, 12:07

Still is a forum for AOA members. Try joining 19wheeler:}

Dan Winterland

6th Mar 2007, 14:01

Divide and conquer worked for Julius Ceaser. It works for Cathay management too!

Numero Crunchero

9th Mar 2007, 18:22

There are 3 types of pilots:
those that see the glass as half empty
those that see the glass as half full
those like regret/jose/cannot who look at the glass and think "f#$k cathay"

The original intent of this thread was to ask who and how many were leaving. I think most of us readers are quite DISinterested in the fates or opinions of the aforementioned posters.

cannot regret jose, please help save the planet...stop polluting pprune with your south park cartmen-esque diatribe.

cpdude

9th Mar 2007, 22:24

:ok: :ok: :ok: :D :D ;) :D

Al E. Vator

10th Mar 2007, 08:02

regretCX: You've not responded to the task set you on the other forum. There, you were challenged to do something proactive. Instead of whining like a spoilt, hyperventillating 5 year-old anonymously on PPRUNE, you were challenged to go see your Boss, CEO whatever and spay him with your invective about how disgusting your profit share was.

Did you?

What lasting benefits did you thus bring your fellow professional aviators?
Could it be that you are just a little computer-hero? Willing to spead vitriol at all and sundry but not prepared/maturemanly enough to get out and do something proactive?

Then perhaps I will quote your own words back at you:

I told you so.........spineless to a single man....... OK, so in light of your own apparent inaction how's your backbone doing?

You cretins keep saying you're ashamed.......I'M ashamed I was so stupid as to get sucked in by all the hype and crap......I could have done better with just about any other airline in the world.......but alas I chose Cathay... Kazakhstan Airlines eagerly awaits your even temperament.
BAD CHOICE.. So why stay?

So run along "yes" men and set up your little chat room, talking the hardline but knowing your going to vote "bend over" with the rest of the sheep. Let the real issues stay on the public forum. I've said it all before and I haven't changed my mind. You are pathetic.

OK, great, had your little childish tantrum yet again. So when are YOU going to get on the pilot Union, any Union and DO something?

If you can't get of your a*se and and fix what you clearly see as such a major problem then why bring everybody else down?

I spent much of my life thus far trying to convince airline management that we Professional aviators are indeed professional, and yet I have to represent the likes of you. Yes, I'm ashamed you are (allegedly) a professional pilot. No airline or professional pilot association needs the likes of you.

Shouldhe

10th Mar 2007, 09:13

Al. good post. Here Here!!!!

cpdude

10th Mar 2007, 13:54

The sad part is...he won't get another offer and we're stuck with him!:\

Penske

10th Mar 2007, 16:46

Looks like our moderator has yanked both Regret and JoseBanana so we are not stuck with them here under those aliases anyway.

boofta

11th Mar 2007, 01:10

Only anecdotal,
Around 20 have left over the past few months, excluding
sim instructors.They need around 250 per year to allow for the reduced growth program, caused by lack of trainers, they would have liked more
newbies but CANNOT due to training constraints.The management are
active on this forum, trying to keep it upbeat, especially to restrict anti
Cathay sentiment being broadcast worldwide. Personally I expect a VERY
small payrise,to stem the exits and increase recruiting. There are many
things wrong with Cathay as with all Airlines lately, so keep up the
negatives on Prune guys. It really is the only way we can change things
for the better.

sizematters

11th Mar 2007, 01:20

lets face it folks, dear old "RegretCX" ain't going to make it anywhere, his life is obviously so crap nothing but winning the lottery and direct promotion to Senior Captain will alleviate his suffering.................as he clearly deserves........................actually, his story has touched my heart, now lets hope he F@#ks off and quits bothering people.......................

Still it seems 4 Classic Captains and 3 or 4 F/O's are on the way out to Oasis and 3 or 4 -400 guys following suit..............that and the US based guys going to Fedex/UPS and the "Legacy" carriers seems the exit rate will soon exceed the input/training rate..................should make it interesting trying to crew all the new aircraft that are coming.........................Apparently it all starts to bite in May as folks already have had May leave cancelled due to the "particuarly heavy task"

Party on people
!!!!!

cpdude

11th Mar 2007, 01:32

With Oasis starting YVR in June, how many pilots are they hiring for a YVR base?

Glass Half Empty

11th Mar 2007, 22:51

"There are 3 types of pilots:
those that see the glass as half empty
those that see the glass as half full"

You Called!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A/T less

12th Mar 2007, 03:17

OAK-HKG was not flyable with any sustainable payload; Considering , among other factors , the runway is only 10,000 ft with a distance of 6,021 nm - 14 hr trip to HKG.

Maybe Oasis should pick up a few of "our" 773ERs for that route since we will be parking them anyway. :{ :{

ACMS

12th Mar 2007, 12:24

Parking 300ER's???????????? I very much doubt that.
We have now got over 57 training Capt's on the 777 ( although why anyone would train is beyond me ) 50 to 60 line Capt's and one hell of a lot of upgrades about to kickoff. So I'm sorry to dissappoint you but I very much doubt that Cx will have to park anything anywhere. If they do then NR will be looking for a new job.:ok:
Try getting Xmas leave this year and take a look how many slots are available............zero. ( 1 slot already allocated )
I guess all the 3rd floor will have Xmas off to spend their nice fat bonus ( much bigger than ours I'm sure ):*

CAN-NOT!!

12th Mar 2007, 19:48

We have now got over 57 training Capt's on the 777

that's nice and sweet, but who are they going to train when A LOT your pilots will have other jobs by August?:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Oasis:D

Jetstar:D

UPS:D

United :D

Easyjet:D

Virgin Blue:D

Delta Airlines:D

FedEx:D

Southwest:D

Just to name a few places where ex-Cathay pilots can be found

ACMS

13th Mar 2007, 00:08

If I had a dollar for each person that said they were leaving Cx...........................then I'd be a millionair by now.
Not that many will leave, if they do then good. It only makes my industrial position stronger and supply and demand forces will take control of out T&C.
that's nice and sweet, but who are they going to train when A LOT your pilots will have other jobs by August? a lot ? yeah right
Oasis: maybe a few old guys and a few S/O's might jump over
Jetstar :- only 1 retiree gone. Why would anymore want too?
UPS:- a few will go here no doubt
United:- not too many here.
Easyjet:- why would anyone want to
Virgin Blue:- don't know of any going here, infact 3 want to come back from VB to CX
Delta Airlines:- going broke, not too many there either
FedEx:- a few will go here.
Southwest:- and maybe a couple here.

CAN-NOT!!

13th Mar 2007, 01:16

Not that many will leave, if they do then good. It only makes my industrial position stronger and supply and demand forces will take control of out T&C.

supply and demand? Cathay might have to train more people to keep up with attrition but there will NEVER be a supply problem! Still lots of people out there who think (incorrectly so) that CX is heaven on earth. The "company" will never have to give you any payrises. So keep on dreaming. (dreams don't always come true) Last time I checked, there's been consistent pay"un"rises (pardon my english) since 1993.

CX might have to park aircraft because their training department is an impedance to the growth of the airlines. (well, and the people quitting on a weekly basis are too). :sad: :sad:

Hey, come august, HKIA might have to shutdown one of the runways to park all 'em "shiny 777s". :} :} :}

A/T less

13th Mar 2007, 01:23

Hey, come august, HKIA might have to shutdown one of the runways to park all 'em "shiny 777s".

Cathay linecheck scenario:

Ok chap, RWY07R in Hong Kong is NOTAMed out of service to park our brand new 777s that are not flying because we failed everybody on their upgrades. So you're half way across the Pacific and you're low on gas..Can you continue to Hong Kong based on the "Inflight reduction of normal fuel required" according to current conditions?

ACMS

13th Mar 2007, 04:04

For those of you anti-Cathay types that can't seem to find the info in the manuals, Inflight reduction of fuel is in the Vol 2 Pt 2, Gen operational section.:ok:
Parking ER's...............................very very unlikely.
Cx always falls on it's feet, sad but true.

CAN-NOT!!

13th Mar 2007, 04:35

Cx always falls on it's feet

remember when Cathay was the only airline in Hong Kong?? OK..that's not the case anymore.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

cpdude

13th Mar 2007, 14:51

I agree ACMS, A/T less needs a refresher!:eek:

Numero Crunchero

13th Mar 2007, 15:51

cannot,
why would they have to park aricraft? If 100% fail command course this year they can extend the 50 or so retirees. Also they can simply work all captains, who are not G day limited, into overtime. If there are say 600 captains, we would all be worked up to 92 hrs...still a lot cheaper using overtime than upgrading CNs! Also, if they anticipate a high failure rate, they could divert any unproductive training to straight line flying...not much of this but it all helps!

Grounding lots of aircraft due failures/training...highly unlikely!

Night Watch

14th Mar 2007, 04:00

Back to the subject....

These are the Numbers of guys that have left that I know directly (not heard of friends of friends).

1... Easyjet
1... Air France
1... Jetstar Oz
1... UPS
1... Oasis Hong Kong
1... Emirates
1... Gone to buy a pub in Europe (prob the smartest one of all!!!)

So that 7 that I know of.... how about you?

Rhick Noades

14th Mar 2007, 04:08

This week showed some encouraging signs. Nine pilots departed this week but they were only Freighter pilots so this does not count. They were also mostly American which really is good news. On the training front we are still actively bullying as many line Captains as we can into becoming Training Captains however if you would still like to volunteer we are still taking those also. Again on the training side we have decided to upgrade the ERAS system. You'll now be glad to know that their is now a score less than 1. We will be introducing a new score system with the exciting addition of the "1/2" score. This will give trainers who are really having a bad day the opportunity of really stessing a training point in a constructive and non threatening way. I think you'll agree this will be a welcome change from the old system and will completely eliminate the conjecture and arguments during a debrief. Load factor remains strong which means absolutely no chance of getting out or back in for those of you lucky enough to have leave this year. I have had a few words to the staff travel people and they assure me that they will be doing their utmost to ensure your family are able to travel as dispersed within the cabin as possible. This will give every member of the family the opportunity to sit in front of our new featured "inop staff IFE screen" in the company of the fat sh&t next to you. So don't miss out on this one! Happy New Year, and remember the old Chinese proverb.

If man at staff travel counter no smile: go different counter.

Regards,

Rhick

CAN-NOT!!

14th Mar 2007, 04:29

Weekly Update
This week showed some encouraging signs. Nine pilots departed this week but they were only Freighter pilots so this does not count. They were also mostly American which really is good news. On the training front we are still actively bullying as many line Captains as we can into becoming Training Captains however if you would still like to volunteer we are still taking those also. Again on the training side we have decided to upgrade the ERAS system. You'll now be glad to know that their is now a score less than 1. We will be introducing a new score system with the exciting addition of the "1/2" score. This will give trainers who are really having a bad day the opportunity of really stessing a training point in a constructive and non threatening way. I think you'll agree this will be a welcome change from the old system and will completely eliminate the conjecture and arguments during a debrief. Load factor remains strong which means absolutely no chance of getting out or back in for those of you lucky enough to have leave this year. I have had a few words to the staff travel people and they assure me that they will be doing their utmost to ensure your family are able to travel as dispersed within the cabin as possible. This will give every member of the family the opportunity to sit in front of our new featured "inop staff IFE screen" in the company of the fat sh&t next to you. So don't miss out on this one! Happy New Year, and remember the old Chinese proverb.

If man at staff travel counter no smile: go different counter.

Regards,

Rhick

That was great! :D :D :D :D :D :D

Thank you Rhick!

CAN-NOT!!

14th Mar 2007, 04:38

cannot,
why would they have to park aricraft? If 100% fail command course this year they can extend the 50 or so retirees. Also they can simply work all captains

Oh great! At least the guys going through now know that there is a backup plan to support their impending failure(s).

spud

14th Mar 2007, 10:49

Just to add to Night Watch's tally.
Definitely 7 to Oasis from the freighter fleet. 2 400F effos, 2 Classic effos, 2 Classic line Capts plus a trainer.

Night Watch

14th Mar 2007, 11:32

spud

The one that I listed that went to Oasis was off the Pax fleet.....

So that makes a running total of at least 14.

sizematters

14th Mar 2007, 12:54

35 in the "pool" for UPS apparently plus Fedex and the fed up yanks waiting for re-call to legacy carriers......................

times they is a changin'.........................

NdekePilot

16th Mar 2007, 04:51

Uh, ACMS, actually it's not.
Inflight reduction of fuel is in VOL 2 PT 2 under COMPANY POLICY.
NP:ok:

TWINGLOBES

16th Mar 2007, 06:48

Rhick,

Please keep those updates coming.

Rhick Noades

16th Mar 2007, 07:51

Due to the recent shortfall in Vol2 Pt2 knowledge demonstrated by a Junior777 Commander on the Pprune website we will introducing mandatory remedial training for all B777 Captains. From now on we will have a "Vol2 pt2" Channel broadcast free in all online port hotels. This will be accessed by your ERN at the reception desk and the televised course will start in you room 20 mins after checking in. If for some reason you have a delay in checking in you may have the module start over by picking your mobile phone dial your Fleet number ie 777 followed by the # followed by your ERN backwards. If you do not have mobile coverage the concierge is contactable downstairs by direct dial ###. A sign off form must then be accessed via People CX after you have finished each review module. Captains may log into ERAS to monitor their progress and complete the online quiz. If the quiz is not completed to a satifactory standard ie less than 100% then the module will need to be reassessed at a later date. However this module must be repeated at a different outport otherwise it would be too easy. I think we will all agree from this that the days of the one small binder sitting on the shelf at home are well and truely numbered.
Happy and safe flying. And remember the old Chinese proverb.

If Check Captain have manboobs: dont taxi on white line.

Regards,

Rhick

7FF

16th Mar 2007, 08:06

Message from CP744 to pax crews today:
Please volunteer to fly the freighter for us. You know it makes sense. More varied rosters and of course we are not short of freiighter crews. :ok:

jtr

16th Mar 2007, 10:38

"excluding themselves from interesting flying in an otherwise almost exclusively ULR passenger operation."
What was I thinking, iso going to LAX/SFO etc with 30 something hour layovers, I can got on 4 or 5 sector patterns through to europe and back where I spend half my time PX'ing. Thanks for tipping me off.

Five Green

16th Mar 2007, 11:08

Hey !!! I got an idea !! If you want people to fly the freighter, get rid of the Freighter COS and pay scale, integrate the freighter flying into Cathay Mainline (with Cathay mainline pay and FTLs) stop giving commands out of seniority , especially to people 7 years junior to Cat'B and D'd FOs and then , maybe, then I will fly the freighter..............

......
......
..........no wait come to think of it the roster will still suck........
......
.....
.....

...nevermind, forget I mentioned anything !

FG

sizematters

16th Mar 2007, 11:28

Now look, it really is in your own interests to fly the freighter, it has nothing to do with the shortage of crews or the fact that we will have to park a nice shiny 744F come July if you don't. I mean we have already cancelled some new routes...................................
Your memory cannot be that long, surely you have forgotten the ASL debacle, the hatred, fighting on the bus, spitting at the scab labour and all that??et alone how it affected your career......................
So, you will be phoned individually and intimidated into flying the freighter or suffer the consequences......................................

It really is interesting flying, I mean why do HKF - SFO - HKG when you can go to Anchorage and back ?? we even have some nice flights leavng HKG at 11pm and getting back at 7 or 9am to Shanghai for you HKG based guys, I mean what could be more interesting than that ???

Equal terms and conditions for all Pilots perhaps ??? even a meagre pay rise ??? well come on chaps, play our game !!!

Five Green

16th Mar 2007, 11:45

Well spotted Ndekepilot !

NdekePilot wrote: "Uh, ACMS, actually it's not.
Inflight reduction of fuel is in VOL 2 PT 2 under COMPANY POLICY.
NP:ok:"

Looks like ACMS could follow his own advice a little more ! From another thread.......

ACMS wrote: "you have never found anything written in SOP's??????????? wow..... Well you could try reading VOL 2 Pt 2. Or you could pickup the QRH,"

Got to go and read the new FCTM and new FCOM 3, later !

FG

Mink

17th Mar 2007, 03:53

"If Check Captain have manboobs: dont taxi on white line."

:D :ok:

Rock_On

17th Mar 2007, 04:41

Just heard that CX pilot #8 has started at UPS. Also, 20 unfilled 747-400 vacancies in ANC will go to newhires starting this summer. :D :D :D

ACMS

19th Mar 2007, 00:16

oops. I must be getting old. Anyway that's what F/O's are for

Rhick Noades

19th Mar 2007, 01:01

Spoken like a true Cathay Captain,

you really are a w@nker!

ACMS

19th Mar 2007, 03:59

:suspect: ...................

NdekePilot

19th Mar 2007, 10:35

FO??? Sorry, I've only been flying for twenty years, I'm certainly not worthy of that lofty title yet!!
Please excuse me while I beetle off and make the bunks. And would Sir like a milk or dark chocolate on his pillow?
NP:ok:

ACMS

19th Mar 2007, 11:40

Boy I really do have to spell everything out to you don't I :}
I meant: most, if not all FO's I have the pleasure of flying with on the 777 are either preparing for or have just completed some form of upgrade training ( SO to JFO, JFO to FO and hardest of all FO to Capt ) and as such are EXTREMELY knowledgeable on all the books.
So if I tongue in cheek say ( and remember we were talking about the VOL2 Pt 2 ) "that's what F/O's are for" then I mean that if I want to get some info from the books then the FO is the person to ask. Quite simple really, as a Captain I will use all resources available to me to complete the flight safely from A to B.
It may have been meant tongue in cheek, but it's very true.
It wasn't meant as a slight on FO's, quite the opposite actually, and when you get old and baggy like me you will come to understand how much you really do rely on your FO.
Clear now?
Finished the name calling and mud slinging?
Life is too shaort fellas, remember who the real enemy is ( i'll give you a hint, he's on the exec floor )

Rhick Noades

19th Mar 2007, 21:05

Nice attempt at a back pedal mate but it doesn't wash with me.

Heres a tip. THINK before you type. Remember the C-L-E-A-R model that you were taught in all those CRM classes? Maybe use this to evaluate your thoughts before treading on your shlong again.

Love

The Bunk maker.

Jose Jimenez

19th Mar 2007, 21:34

stop giving commands out of seniority , especially to people 7 years junior to Cat'B and D'd FOs
Five Green, don't speak about seniority if you don't understand the concept. Obviously, you are either from England/Australia/NZ or you have been highly influenced by people from those places.
Let us consider the "giving" or "getting" of a command the decision by Cathay management to take the initial step in the process: the submission to the command selection panel of the candidate's name. This happens AUTOMATICALLY IN SENIORITY ORDER in the case of PASSENGER COMMANDS, but for FREIGHTER COMMANDS, ONLY A PILOT WHO HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE TO HAVE HIS NAME SUBMITTED TO THE COMMAND SELECTION PANEL will be considered for freighter command. THESE SUBMISSIONS WILL BE MADE IN SENIORITY ORDER FROM THOSE WHO HAVE EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR A FREIGHTER COMMAND.
To my knowledge, NO PILOT WHO HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR A FREIGHTER COMMAND HAS EVER NOT BEEN CONSIDERED BY THE PANEL IN SENIORITY ORDER. The terms "Early Command" and "out of seniority" are bulls**t phrases used by wankers at Cathay who want to play one group against another, make themselves feel more important, or make someone feel "lucky" because he got something "earlier" than he should have.
To explain for you other morons (there are a LOT of you): for OUR intents and purposes (not taking into account the subjective nature of Cathay commands, CAT B/C/D, etc., because those are not the issues here), someone "getting" a freighter command because NO ONE SENIOR TO HIM HAS EXPRESSED A DESIRE FOR IT is NOT getting an "early" command, nor is he getting a command out of seniority. THAT IS HOW SENIORITY WORKS! IF YOU DON'T WANT IT, IT GOES TO SOMEONE JUNIOR TO YOU WHO DOES WANT IT.
Grow up and stop using these divisive terms. Nobody at UPS or FedEx goes around whining about how Jose got an "early" command on the 727. You get what you want unless someone senior to you wants it. THAT IS SENIORITY.
JJ

BusyB

19th Mar 2007, 22:33

JJ,

"Obviously, you are either from England/Australia/NZ or you have been highly influenced by people from those places."

Don't talk about people from those places unless you know them ALL.:}

The Wraith

19th Mar 2007, 23:48

Jeez Jose,
You're a bit highly strung, aren't you? I bet the guys can't wait to fly with you!
As for your comments about Australians, Kiwis et al, why don't you get over yourself you xenophobic halfwit?
:eek:

Five Green

20th Mar 2007, 03:36

JJ : You are right about one thing, we as pilots need to stick together and not get set on each other by mngmt. So how do we do that ?

In a perfect world (of highly moralistic people) we as a pilot group would not accept getting command ahead of other pilots who are SENIOR to us, in order to satisfy our own personal needs. Then as a result the company could not reduce a segment of the pilot group's pay and conditions. No pilots would join on the reduced conditions and then the company would cancel the whole idea. "In a perfect world" Careful now JJ this is a hypothetical discussion.

Would you not agree that we as pilot group would be better off if there was no segregation of freighter and pax ? Would you not agree that one pay scale for all pilots is better (assuming it is the higher pax pay) ? Would you not agree that you SHOULD get a crack a command in SENIORITY and that should include all commands ? Do you not agree that if the freighter command was intigrated then we as pilots would get command on passanger in SENIORITY sooner than we do now ?

The current situation is a farce. I am all about fairness and to me the current situation is not handled fairly. Now before you say "Life is not fair, grow up", let me remind you that life was a lot less fair in days gone by. So why is it more "fair" now ? In most part because strong, intelligent people got together and forced change. We as a pilot group should be intelligent enough to realise we are being had. Work more for less pay, but you can be a "commander". So pilots do.

Your comments are extremely simplistic. You imply that everyone gets a chance to bid for early command. Well, they do not. Only pilots that can hold residency in the countries that have the openings can apply for early command. Thereby denying more SENIOR pilots the positions. If the freighter and pax were not seperate you would get a command in Hong Kong, then pilots with residency would take the bases. Either that or they would crew from Hong Kong (we are a Hong Kong airline).

In addition, you must consider that the current set up allows them to by-pass candidates who want early command, a lot easier. "How so ?" you say. If the current rate of Cat Bing for those applying for early command were applied to all commands it would really show up. When someone gets Catb'd for early command they usually content themselves with the fact that they have X years to pax command and that the pay is no different etc. If this was not the case then the complaints would be louder and eventually we would see something change, as commercially that kind of failure in the training department would be unsustainable. Then as a result the commands get offered to progessively less SENIOR pilots.

You infer that every pilot who wants an early command on the freighter gets one. Not true. An example is the classic freighter. I know several pilots who wanted to go for it but were denied and yet everyone accepts that nobody wants those commands and therefore the rapid command hiring is ok !! The current system of categorising FOs is not unlike the system mngmt use to upgrade Cabin crew. In a nut shell it is upgrade by selection. It is used as a discipline tool. They use reasons to hold back one candidate that do not hold back another. There is no transparency to it and therefore it is open too abuse by management or trainers with a particular ax to grind. It is not done in true SENIORITY. If you don't believe me look up those above you in seniority and ask them why they have not taken a command on the freighter (out of SENIORITY).

Having said all that, I do not want to see the pilot group divided. I would like to see more join the AOA . The problem is not with the pilots who do what is available to them under the system. It is with the system.
If you are one of the lucky ones who has taken an early freighter command then well done on the hard work, as it is still not given away. However please reflect on the fact that you fit the mold and were able to progress, while others more SENIOR to you did not.

This comes back too what started my comments. The co. wants us to fly freighters. Why? They are getting short because people are leaving. Maybe not many in the grand scheme of things, but certainly the highest percentages on a month to month total than ever before in our history! You have pax captains flying freighter rosters, and not just one or two trips. You will soon have pax FOs filling the empty spots on the freighter roster. Our CP is not talking to people because he is concerned for the well being of those under his care. He is trying to cover the roster. Why is he having this problem ? The problem is entirely of their own making. Unfortunately, as with other problems, rather than address the actual problem and fix it, they will get out the big stick and force us to solve their problem. As I said before if the freighter group was re-absorbed on the same COS and FTLs all problems would be solved. We would stop loosing FOs and Captains and we would all fly the freighter. Until then I will reserve my contractual right to not fly the freighter.

By the way, where I am from has nothing to do with my understanding of seniority. The seniority concept is applied slightly differently in every contract I have ever read. I am sure that I have read more contracts than you have. It comes down to some basic principles most good for pilots but some major points are bad as well. That however, is a whole other thread !

act700

20th Mar 2007, 04:25

The question is:

If a guy less senior to me gets command, do I get captains pay, even tough I choose/chose/was chosen for staying as an F/O?

BusyB

20th Mar 2007, 07:56

No, you don't:confused:

skibeagle

23rd Mar 2007, 04:40

OK chaps, so the way to bail out is to get on a base and cash in your provident fund. Quit while outside of HK so the IRD can't nail you, find another job and bolt for the door...

There are a great deal of great things out there.

What I'd like to hear about are some of the stories of how CX management have employed PI's to check/spy on people....

When the training bonds start... well what would that be an indication of ?????

BusBusBus

27th Mar 2007, 17:57

There are many things wrong with Cathay as with all Airlines lately, so keep up the negatives on Prune guys. It really is the only way we can change things for the better.

Now, the above quote has got to be one of the dumbest thing I have read on Prune for a long time. Boofta, if you are remotely intellegent and really has the heart to change things for the better. Maybe you should go up to the 3rd floor and talk to your fleet manager about all your concern. If you are too chicken to voice your concern to the management because you think you will get fired, go talk to the AOA, I am sure someone will listen to you there. For me and the others who are happy with the company, we don't usually have any problem in talking to anyone on the 3rd floor. Hence we don't have to keep up the negatives on Prune. There's simply not that much negative things about Cathay as you want people to believe.

bus

cpdude

27th Mar 2007, 20:50

For me and the others who are happy with the company,

Happy is a relative term. I'm not looking for the door but happy is not the adjective I would use!

zulapels

29th Mar 2007, 00:22

Are there any good contracts out there for B744 and B777 Capt.?
Is it true Korean,Emirates and Etihad got big payrises?

As a dreamer I look forward to many years of US$300000 -500000 a year due marked forces.

Thanks and please be gentle.

TWINGLOBES

30th Mar 2007, 04:48

Just gently keep dreaming

Blue-Footed Boobie

30th Mar 2007, 09:17

'Positve Rate'
''Gear Up..please'
'No No No you dumbkopf! It's 'Gear Up'
I'm afraid that's a fail' :ugh:

Blue-Footed Boobie

30th Mar 2007, 12:40

Spleener,

Had a bad day at work there old chap?

Blue Foot

climbout

30th Mar 2007, 16:24

CX? Great lifestyle, world-wide basings available, a company with solid financial background! and - the worst training, I've ever experienced in the aviation industry!

Yeager

30th Mar 2007, 19:03

boys and gals. Pls stop talking about training and CX. There are no such thing as training here.. This is the only company Ive heard of that uses - Ideas, Conventions and Procedures. Standard is something that is described in FCOMs, Vols, FCTMs etc. etc. - its one big mess. Go fly and some have got one idea - some another - its like a flying club. Info and procedure here and there about the same things. Mickey Mouse. This is at the best an average big airline with at long way to go to get up with the big ones.

Incident statistics speeks for them selves - that being the ones that are accounted for!.. Naa.. Go fly and have fun where ever you come from - because you are not gonna find it here. Good luck to you folks.
/ Y.

A/T less

30th Mar 2007, 19:39

Mickey Mouse.
That's gotta be the best description of Cathay Pacific's Flight Ops I've ever heard. So simple yet so true!

With the arrogance that are running around, I doubt they will ever "get it". Yes, go fly somewhere else. Best advice I've seen on pprune in a while.

Elroy Jettson

31st Mar 2007, 00:36

Cmon Guys, how hard is it to play the game? By the time you get to have a crack at command you have seen it done 1000 times, you have seen it done well by some captains, hopefully the ones you want to model your management style on, and you have seen it done badly, the ones you dont want to copy. Play the game for 6months, even if you need to check your egos in for rehab for the duration, once you have passed with flying colours, then take cracks at the training department as a captain, they may start to listen then if your way of doing things is so much better than these guys are capable of teaching.

What is more dangerous do you think? A training department who want to train a certain way, or a candidate not flexible enough to learn another way because he knows it all, and cant be shown something different? :hmm:

jtr

31st Mar 2007, 01:06

"Cmon Guys, how hard is it to play the game? "

Well according to recent history, a degree of difficulty of anywhere between 0 and 9 depending on fleet and how rabid the board/checkers are.

More and more are turning commands down.

Maybe it is a different mindset or maybe the system is so out of control they just don't want to deal with it. Either way the mere fact that you acknowledge with your "play the game" statement that you are required to be someone you are not in the course, and will morph back into your "old" self after the course seems to indicate there is a problem, no?

Elroy Jettson

31st Mar 2007, 01:30

JTR - You would only be your "Old self" if you ended up back in the right hand seat wouldnt you? :E

Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something? Could that be possible?

If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly? I have never met a Training Captain who didnt want his candidate to pass when he puts them up for check, or a check captain that wants to fail people regardless of their performance. But I have met people who have failed and had the lamest of excuses for their own poor performances, they can tell you the "only 1 thing" they did wrong on the check, or people who know the books backwards who cant even tie their shoe laces. You wouldnt give them a command either.

jtr

31st Mar 2007, 02:04

so by inference, a decade or so in the company does not bring you up to the mark, it is the 40 sectors of C+T that does it and nothing else. Interesting.

"Otherwise, you actually might have learnt something?"

The command course is not about learning, it is about polish. - Agree/Disagree?

Do you seriously think guys (and soon to be gals) spend 8,9,10 years in the company not busting their balls to climb the peak? Spend months studying for PCA's, weeks sweating before RT/PC's and line checks? Seriously, do you think they go into it with the wrong attitude, inadequate preparation, poor skill set?

"If "play the game" means turning up willing to learn to fly their aircraft their way, what is wrong with that? " - Nothing wrong with that, just as long as "their way" is bounded only by SOP, not personal preference.

"Do you honestly think that people are being failed for absolutely no reason, or because they said "checked" and not "check"? Honestly?" - No

Elroy Jettson

31st Mar 2007, 02:33

Not sure why you have such a problem with the concept of learning something on a command course. Is this such a foreign concept? A command candidate should turn up knowing the books backwards, knowing the sops and all the possible variations and interpretations of evey in and out... This is a basic prerequisite. Polish? I hope we are talking about the same thing.

Yes, I think people have turned up to command training with poor skills, crap attitude, health problems, troubles at home, runny noses, no idea of the books, and every other possible human combination. However, they are the exception, not the rule.

10 years in the right hand seat and the back seat doesnt necessarily make you a switched on operator, infact that long in the golden chair can do quite the opposite. You honestly dont know any bone lazy SOs or FOs? Are all the guys you fly with Jedi Knights who couldnt possibly learn another thing or make a mistake? You know as well as I do, some people just do enough work to scrape through, anything extra is a waste of pi$$ drinking time.

Think of it like this... You turn up to a bbq with a brand new Ferrari, you just bought it. All your mates want a drive. Some, you wouldnt even let them in it, you know they are going to cane it as soon as they are around the corner. Some you think will be ok, you just want to ride around the block with them to make sure, some of your mates think they will be fine because they used to have an rs2000 escort back in Australia, and some probably are going to drive it better than you, because they already have ferraris.

Whats wrong with the company designating someone to "Screen their mates" with their new 777s?

wannagetout

31st Mar 2007, 03:29

All I can say is that, I have read these posts with interest over the last month or so. My feelings are exactly the same as the majority of people at Cathay. We feel constantly badgered, beaten and unwanted. I have never,ever worked for a company that treats it's staff so badly. The training is as bad as everyone says, just check after check after check. Previous experience is basically useless as you are treated as an idiot regardless of time in the seat. The exception are the "airforce" fast jet types which seem to be what cathay like.....The old airforce mentality is sickening. Hong Kong sucks. THere is no other way to say it. My kids are constantly ill and my youngest has constant trips to the Dr. Morale is non-existant. I have heard the phase "CX is a captains airline". I would like to qualify that and say CX is an A scale captains airline. They are the only ones who are compensated appropriately for putting up with the constant BS. If I had my time again, would I have joined CX......not in a million years! Steer clear of this over rated shambles..........

Five Green

31st Mar 2007, 03:35

Not sure why you have such a problem with the concept of learning something on a command course. Is this such a foreign concept? A command candidate should turn up knowing the books backwards,

Well if command candidates were trained then great. They are expected to turn up and know every little nuance of being a captain. A position they have never held in this airline and therefore cannot possibly have seen every concievable scenario. Flying long haul for ten years does not prepare you for regional flying. An example might be the way in which your C+T passes on Local knowledge. People fall down on courses when the checker could have just given a "heads up" to the candidate on his first exposure to "xyz" and then the candidate would know it from then on.

knowing the sops and all the possible variations and interpretations of evey in and out... This is a basic prerequisite. Polish? I hope we are talking about the same thing.

This is fleet dependant. Much harder to know what all the preferences of the C+T s on the 400 than on the 777. In a big airline sops would be SOPS and not convention or opinion or your words :interpretations. The main problem I have with SOP vs. Convention vs. Opinion is that we are checked on conventions and opinion as if they are SOPS. On the 400 fleet you can get 2 s for SOPS for not following the checker's opinion. It is really very simple make the hard and fast conventions into SOPS. To do that add them to FCOMM 3 IN WRITING. We could start with the mouth music (not a prob if you have picked it up along the way, but for the new joiner only learned through osmosis). If you don't think there is any confusion check out the FAQ sect of the 400 FCTM and read the newly ammended introduction. I only hope you have the maturity to read between the lines.

You are way off mark suggesting that anyone tries to cruise through a command course here. The one good thing about a check and failing system is that people do the work. THEY BUST THEIR BACKS to prepare. There are a certain amount of justifiable failings but there are also those that should have passed. If we get a more standardised training criteria and standardised assesment process it would go along way too improving the moral on this issue.

We all know the process (command and command selection RT PC line checks) can be easy or impossible depending on who you get. That would not happen if all you say were true. Nobody wants to suck it and see !!

FG

Elroy Jettson

31st Mar 2007, 12:23

Training. What sort of training would you suggest? 40 sectors? Enough? Not enough? 10 sims? 20 sims? 50? Take the example of screening your friends at a bbq to drive your new ferrari I gave earlier. Even something that simple, they all had different requirements, different levels of training required. Even for letting your friends drive your car, there isnt a one size fits all response. Now try coming up with a one size fits all command training package for 1000+ pilots. What would you put in yours? One thing you wont find in any course is spoon feeding. I am not suggesting that that is what you are asking for either. If you know your stuff, and you have 10 years to learn it, you are showing a genuine effort to pass, but you are having a problem with a particular area, or something you just need to clarify, do you honestly think they would rather fail you than work on that area? :confused:

OK, so now you have developed this amazing training system that gaurantees 100% Ben Konobis, 100% of the time, on all fleets, right across the board, how are you going to make sure the guys you choose to train and check under your new system, all do so in exactly the same way to all candidates they pass through the system? Its easy to whinge and complain about the system, what are you going to replace it with?

You and I could sit down and read the same paragraph from a book and come up with two completely different interpretations of what we read. Now lets sit down and read 4 FCOMs. At the end of reading all that, do you think we would have identical interpretations on the entire manual suite? Doubt it. Differences are inevitable, especially where the written word is inolved.

No one disagrees with the unfairness of marking someone down for personal preference over SOP, it is unfair and unprofessional. The problem is when a check and training guy offers a suggestion on how to do something that he has used to his benefit for over a decade as a wide body captain, and some j&rk off SO or FO says, "Well where is that written?" If a checky is telling you something contrary to an SOP, or limitation, then that is a different issue. You have every right to quote the book, and show them where it is written, and that they are wrong. Doesnt matter what their personal preference is, no one will fail you for doing it completely by the book.

As for trainers withholding information from a candidates that are coming up for check, so that they will be gauranteed to fail, you dont believe that do you? Sounds like the rantings of a failed candidate... "It was my training Captains fault, he set me up to fail! If only he told me about the visual approach into Osaka! He knew I would get it, it is his fault!" Yeah, they all sat around the table, and worked out how to fail you. Do you honestly believe that if you picked the brains of a training captain prior to your final check that they would withhold anything?

Completely agree that longhaul doesnt prepare you for regional. So, if you are not well prepared, you get 12 months in the right hand seat to learn it after you miss out on your first attempt. If you take the egos out of it, it is a good result. If you still cant do it after 12 months, should you have a command? The system that has you jumping from one fleet to another is not ideal for training, but that is a result of the employment agreement, seniority, and your personal preference. Nothing to do with training, a completely seperate issue.

Captain TOGA

31st Mar 2007, 13:24

Elroy, Is it correct to assume that you are from Australia (just like ACMS)?

dragonflyhkg

31st Mar 2007, 14:18

Back on topic guys;

As of August 2006, we needed to recruit a-man-a-day for just over two years to man the Company's planned expansion. At that time, my Fleet Management stated they were at about 6 per week inbound; i.e. 1 man per week shortfall.

I spoke with some of our colleagues that attended a briefing earlier this year, where one of the Managers indicated that we started to lose crew back into NAM carriers at the rate of 2 per week from mid November 2006.

That 3 per week behind the drag curve, assuming we manage to improve in the second half of last year.

I wonder what the management will try next to bludgeon an improvement in moral when the shortage starts to bite?

767QB

31st Mar 2007, 19:58

Hey there! sorry to change the subject but i was wondering if someone could give me some advise on finding a cheap hotel near the airport. i have an interview comming up and i would like to check out hk for a couple of days
many thanx:ok:

Cpt. Underpants

31st Mar 2007, 22:52

The transport in HKG is excellent. so don't limit yourself - I would recommend the YMCA in TST - reasonably priced, excellent location and great hotel facilities.
http://www.ymcahk.org.hk/sales/html/hst001e.htm
If you're stuck and rooms are unavailable, try the Novotel in Tung Chung, 15 minutes from Cathay City and also close to "Slashers Arms" (The Aviator Pub) - the Oasis "Recruiting Centre"
http://www.accorhotels-asia.com/6239/detail/default.aspx
Good luck.

babymike737

2nd Apr 2007, 02:24

Hi guys

Just a quick question for you if you can help. I would like to join Cathay Pacific. I love Hong Kong, I love Sim checks, and I love this forum. Can any one provide me with a contact for me to send my CV to or any advice. I have nearly 2000 Hours on boeing 737's in the UK.

Its been great fun reading the posts. I would like to find out for myself what CX is like.

Thanks

[email protected]

Rice Pudding

6th Apr 2007, 09:24

New Joiners resign

I heard this week that 2 new joiners have resigned, before they started their line training. The first was "repatriated" the same afternoon that he resigned.

Night Watch

6th Apr 2007, 09:40

Rice Pudding Rank? DESO or DEFO? Repatriated to where?

wondering

6th Apr 2007, 12:24

@babymike737,

it´s all done online these days. Just go to www.cathaypacific.com and fill out an application.

sizematters

6th Apr 2007, 12:44

repatriated = he was sent home !!

OK ??

fiftypercentn1

6th Apr 2007, 13:03

Guys im sorry..its sad to say..but the future is not the majors..the future is LCC!!!yes also for long haul...its just a matter of time

742.247

6th Apr 2007, 14:20

I disagree

LCCs always come and go but never stay.

The LCC is usually headed by one person who mismanages the company, takes the money and runs, gets absorbed sold or liquidated or is forced to fly puny routes due to the sake of governors ruling the routes in which the major airline flies to preserve 'quality' that a LCC never has or equipment restriction (range and capacity). You need an airplane bigger than a 737 to survive! This is one of the fate sealers of a LCC. Of course Sir Freddie did ok with a DC10 but where is he?

LCCs always are in training mode. When the employee has enough experience tucked under their belt, whether it be hours or years with a clean record they bolt for the major airline for better compensation and pension. This is how a LCC is run....cut labour costs and run a no-frills outfit and attract the minimum experience labourer.

Sometimes, a savvy owner might get smart with fuel hedging or some other form of diversification to keep the LCC alive and in competition but it usually is short lived.

The LCC if it survives evolves into something other than a LCC. Labour costs can only be controlled for a short while due to unions and the cyclical nature of hiring and furloughing in this industry. When you can't leave a LCC because no one is hiring then you stay...if you stay long enough it is sometimes better to remain there and let your union have more leverage through population of membership...and therefore through contracts increasing your wage and compensation raher than leave for a major airline.

I think that the statement should read:

LCCs have a small place in the future rather than LCCs are the future.

I am still looking for air wal-mart and air aldi's to start flying...

tnx for a great forum!

SIC

6th Apr 2007, 15:10

Quote from babymike737 a few posts back:

"Just a quick question for you if you can help. I would like to join Cathay Pacific. I love Hong Kong, I love Sim checks, and I love this forum..."

CX is gonna love you !!!!

flite idol

6th Apr 2007, 15:49

Thats a lota love!

fiftypercentn1

6th Apr 2007, 16:01

742
well talk about this in 10 yrs time

Captain TOGA

6th Apr 2007, 20:58

Have you ever heard of SouthWest Airlines??

36 years, 483 B737's, 3200 flights a day.

Wake up Europe boy.

How com you didn't mention:

Air South
Kiwi International Airlines
Pan American World Airways (not original)
Kiwi International Airlines
Sunjet International/Myrtle Beach Jet Express
Eastwind Airlines
Access Air
Tower Air
Pro Air
Legend Airlines
National Airlines
Midway Airlines
Vanguard Airlines
TransMeridian Airlines
Independence Air
Hooters Air

742.247

7th Apr 2007, 00:09

Sodapoop := tsk tsk...calling me Europe boy...keep it grown up please.

SWA is an anomaly and a rarity ..I give you that.

Please cite some more examples of LCCs that haven't turned into a legacy carrier or went tango uniform...SWA is on the verge (maybe already is) of being a legacy carrier with its labour costs increasing every year/every contract. They too will soon feel a pinch like every other major airline does. Oh...AirTran..just around a few years and limited on growth due to the FAA imposed restriction on ValueJet and yet they even had to take a paycut after 9-11...otherwise they would have furloughed...keep labour costs low, it is the only card the LCC can play or not grow regionally.

I posted as well that in order to keep competitive on a global scale you need something other than a small jet like the 737 and LCCs do not offer the 'quality' that passengers desire on long hauls. Peanuts and pick your own seat doesn't cut it from London to Hong Kong but it might from Dallas to Las Vegas.

It needs to be more than that we are talking people here not cattle.

Like I said you can make a great bet when the fuel is priced low but sooner or later you have to pay the same high price as every other cheap airline or turn to solar panels but then not fly at night.

Remember that SWA also had a very tidy agreement with the city of Dallas and the Governor of Texas...no landing fees, no parking fees, monopoly on that field...it allowed it a great deal of room to make a profit for many years while other LCCs came and went without having the same advantage.

Herbie did pretty good with that 'Love'bug and all he had to do was do a touch and go at neighbouring state.

Very tidy indeed.

Again, thanks for a great forum...it gets better everyday.

EuropeBoy signing off. lol