Best First Trainer ? C152 or C172 ?

[sternone]

Best First Trainer ? C152 or C172 ?

Many clubs are replacing their C152's to C172 for their training, a good idea ?

[spittingimage]

Well, they do not build C152s any more do they ? Those that are still around are a little elderly (20 years ?) to say the least. This, plus the fact that a couple of average blokes in a C152 does not leave much payload for fuel as well. Seriously, check the legal and practical weight limitations of training in a C152 with your instructor of choice before you commit yourself to £000s. Similar comments for the PA38 by the way.

And, after you get your licence issued what is the first thing you are probably going to do ? That's right, convert to a 4-seater so you can impress your mates and/or go places ! So why not start in a 4-seater from day one ? How about the PA28 ? Both this and the C172 also have better cross-wind limits than the old C152 I seem to recall.

All in all a good idea methinks.

[davidatter708]

I would say a 152 because not only is it cheaper but also if you like aeros like me and your club has aerobats then your training was not all straight and level so it is more fun. I wouldnt like to try tiping a 172 upside down
David

[RatherBeFlying]

Having started in a C-150, my advice would be the C-172 unless far more expensive.

The principal reason is climb rate.

Airwork, stalls, spins, forced and precautionary approaches will have you climbing up to safe altitude or circuit height before doing the next item. It takes much longer to get back to altitude in a C-150/152, especially in warmer weather. So while the rental rate is more, I suspect you get in more learning for your money.

C-150s tend to get bounced about quite a bit more in mechanical turbulence on approach which makes learning landings that much harder.

[acuba 290]

i started 172N from first day and it was ok. Now after got my PPL, i fly mostly Piper or Mooney

[Pitts2112]

There's not enough in it to matter to a new trainee other than the cost. I was once told a 172 is basically a 152 +10 kts. That's close enough to accurate, I think.

Pitts2112

[gingernut]

the 172's a bit harder to land, and'll probably take further hours to complete the ppl, but it feels great to fly:) (&land)

[flyingphil1]

To start training a 150/152 especially if its an aerobat .. I've been flying for nearly 20 years and still love the Cessna A150 It is strange how many pilots dont do aeros and of course you never will if you learn in a 172. Its always easier to go up a model too ...

[Piltdown Man]

I've flown some nasty aircraft but none so nasty as a 150 (does the extra two make a difference?). A 172 though, whilst still not what you would call sexy or glamourous, is a very useful and honest aircraft. It is also just as easy to fly (maybe even easier) as its kid brother (or is it sister?) but more importantly, a lot more difficult to overload. Recycle 150/152's into beer cans and make them useful too!

PM

[flyingphil1]

The most forgiving plane of them all is a 150 its easier to fly for a novice than a 172. The 152 is a little faster and some small differences but as someone who has flown in a few aircraft I will always hold the 150 in great stead. Peple who use the JAFFA (just another f*&king flying aeroplane) description dont enjoy it. Dont mock the 150 or 152 they have their rightful place in aviation history.

[BFMD]

I'm far from a great fan of the C150/2. It’s slow and if you have two average size blokes in it, you're almost sat on each others lap. But as far as a trainer goes, I think it does the job nicely- It’s easy and cheap to fly. Why waste your money training on the C172? Do you're training on the C150, get your PPL, then spend a couple of hours converting onto something a bit bigger and quicker like the C172.

[BFMD]

Just checked the prices at my local club and the difference between the C152 and C172 is £22 per hour. That makes a £1100 difference on 50 hours flying.

[wbryce]

I dont see really any benefit paying more to fly a C172 over a C152, after you have your license its probably a small checkout ride in the C172...if you really want to do some hours in the C172 then ask to do a few flights in it at the latter stages of your training this way your getting 'checked' out on it while remaining in your current course structure...so effectively it saves you money.

Me personally, I would choose the C152 on cost alone. Planes, they all fly the same! ;)

I would choose a PA38 over a C152 though, PA38 has some true characteristics and is a good aircraft to lay the foundations down. Its not really as forgiving as a C152 so you handle it with a little bit more care and attention.

[gcolyer]

The PA38!!

With the PA38 it really depends if it is a nice one or not. I have flown a few PA38's and hated them all, other than G-OATS from Truman aviation (which got killed on a dodgey landing)

A PA38 is a little more tricky to fly than a 150/152 which could well make you a better pilot faster or it will p*** you off.

Back to the original question..... I would train in the 150/152 purley based on price. As everyone else says it is a quick checkride in a 172 later on. You will soon see GA is all about money and any penny you can save is worth keeping in your pocket until you really have to give it away.

[TheGorrilla]

All a load of rubish....

Try a B777 :E !

[barit1]

In my instructing experience, I found students transitioning 150 > 172 had a fairly easy time of it (172 was slightly more stable). However if they started on a 172 they always seemed to be overcontrolling the 150 until they got the hang of it. Based on this I recommended new students logging 15-20 hours in a 150 before transitioning to 172.

Mind you this was over 30 years ago...

[Jgossett]

When contacting flight schools they said if your over 5' 8" or 5' 9" in the 150 or 152... Doubt I'll ever fit in one... I'm 6' 2" and large frame :cool:

[east_sider]

I'm 6'3" and learning in a 152 no problems :ok:

[gcolyer]

My instructor was 6 foot 7, he fit in the 150, was amusing glanzing right at him though.

[IO540]

I strongly believe in learning in something close to what you will be flying after you get your PPL.

This will save you a good few hundred quid, as well as making you a safer and more confident pilot due to having 50-60hrs of currency on type on the very day you get the PPL.

Instructors tend to differ with this, saying that such and such a plane will make you a better pilot, etc. I have 20hrs in Tomahawks, hated most of it, and it certainly didn't make me a better pilot. The wild wing drops in the stall were fun and probably good value relative to an expensive fairground ride but in reality nobody is going to be anywhere near stalling (in normal operations) unless they have severely messed up, and that will happen only just before landing, and then one is too low to do anything about it anyway.

Go for the C172. A much more useful plane for going places, and taking others with you.

You will soon see GA is all about money and any penny you can save is worth keeping in your pocket until you really have to give it away

That's undoubtedly true for many or even most UK pilots, but then most UK pilots last a year or two, max, before chucking it in for good, for various reasons; a fundamentally insufficient budget from day 1 being one of the more common ones.

What keeps the long-term pilots in the game is IMHO something else - the enjoyment of flying and this has many facets. For example, if you can fly something bigger to France, with a few friends, and have a nice time of it, then your "return" on your "investment" will be much greater than it would be flying a C150 alone from Goodwood to Beachy Head and back, a few times before you get fed up with it - despite the bigger plane costing perhaps 30% to 50% more.

I worked through PA38s, C150s, C152, PA28s of various sorts, and ended up flying a TB20. Some 700hrs and an IR later, the biggest lesson I learnt in all this is that I wish I had known at the outset what I know now, about avoiding all the different ways to waste time and money in this game. If anybody asks me how they should do this, I always recommend having a real hard think about the future and taking a long term view.

[gcolyer]

IO540
I wish I had known at the outset what I know now


Don't we all.

IO540
if you can fly something bigger


Could not agree more. I mostly fly a PA32 300 these days. The extra weight that you can carry makes it great for taking a load of mates on longer trips away, which like IO said is much more rewarding than bimbling about your (semi) local skies for a few hours.

Having said that I personaly think it would be better to learn in the 150 than the 172. And I definatley would not bother witha PA38, I can't stand them.

[foxmoth]

Forget Cessna and Piper, go Robin instead, a FAR nicer machine.:ok:

[gcolyer]

I flown the Robin DR 400, not bad I must say. Cracking view out of it. I am just not keen on the flimsy skin of the aircraft. Also I would not say it is ideal for a trainer. The hand break takes some getting used to as well.

The Grumman AA5-B is not bad either. After the PA32 I fly this more than Cessna or Piper. It is quiet a skitish aricraft though, yet I find it the eastiest aircraft I have flown to land. you just need to be careful of the flimsy castoring nose wheel. Again probably not the best trainer.

[Miserlou]

Makes not a jot of difference one or the other when looking at the club scene these days.

Find the cheapest aircraft you can and get your licence for as little capital outlay as possible. Once you've got your licence you can chop and change as much as you want and fly whatever you're prepared to pay for.

Many comments here can be likened to when newbies ask me what the 'xxx' simulator is like. If they haven't flown the real thing, it makes no difference whatsoever; they have no frame of reference in which to use the information, which is still only my opinion based on my preferences and my experience.

[captain_flynn]

I think it depends on what one really wants to do with their licence. If you're hoping to make a career out of flying then a C152 might be the most cost effective as they're normally a cheaper rate than a C172.

I've flown C152's, C172's and PA-38 Tomahawks. My favourite has to be the C172 for it's stability, but both the C152 and 172 are quite reasonable to fly. The Tomahawk is a different game all together. A nice plane, but not as forgiving as the Cessna's.

[A and C]

Above the reason why the C152 is such a good trainer, yes the PA38 is a better trainer and the Robin is far nicer to fly but the objective is to teach people to fly at the most economical cost the goal being the issue of PPL.
Reasons for not using the PA38 are that parts are starting to get a bit hard to get hold of and 13,000 hour spar life so a high life aircraft will have next to no resale value so don't expect to be flying anything except an old dog by now.

The Robin is by far the nicest aircraft to fly and a very good trainer but Robin are by far worst aircraft company at suplying parts that I have ever delt with and dispite being a long time DR400-180 owner I would never try to make money with the aircraft and so regretably it is a non starter as a trainer.

The C152 dispite being out of production is an aircraft that has unlimitted spar life and a good parts suply chain, being a "beefed up" C150 it has had all the bugs of the C150 sorted out and so maintenance costs are the lowest of any of the popular trainers so it is an aircraft that an owner can spend money on with confidence of a return on investment.

The C172 is a fine aircraft ( but not as nice to fly as the Robin) with all the advantages of the Cessna parts supply chain but as noted in other posts you are flying two empty seats around and I'm sure Ryanair would not do that as a matter of policy!!

[Captain Smithy]

Before I give my opinion I'll state that I am no expert. I have never, ever flown a Cessna (in fact, the only A/C I have ever flown is the Grob Tutor and the PA38), so I cannot comment on any Cessnas.

I'm currently doing my training in a Tommy, nothing wrong with it, the club I'm with has a particularly nice example, I like it. Great visibility, seems to fly quite nicely. Cheap to learn in too.

At the end of the day it's up to you, you can save money initially and learn on a cheaper two-seater or, if you can afford a little more, learn on a four-seater type you'd be likely to fly after your training.

Cheers

Smithy

[flyingphil1]

Having flown all aircraft listed bar a B777 do what virtually everyone does fly a C150 (or C152) to start then a 172 then a 182 then a PA32-300 then get a job flying pro aircraft and, like most do, never fly a 150 again ,,,, a few (safe) aeros in the C150A later and most remeber the fun that they are .. theres no C172 Aerobatic planes that I know of!! The 150s are alas dying off now and anyone who wont miss them I have nothing but contemp for ... :ok:

[Miserlou]

Strong words, Phil.
The 150 became the aircraft it is, probably the most common trainer in the western world, not by being the best but by being the cheapest. You don't have to look far to find better performance, nicer handling or prettier aircraft in the same class.
Just off the top of my head, the Beagle Pup, Rollason Condor, Slingsby T-67, Jodel D150, Robin DR400-108. I'd choose any of them before flying the Cessna!

Then you may want to discuss the role of 'trainer'. A good trainer should really be an awful aeroplane (or be able to exhibit/exagerate various aerodynamic characteristics) so the student may develop the skill to be able to handle whatever aircraft he may later fly. The 150 is quite a pleasantly handling aircraft requiring less in the way of skill than other trainers of the era, typically the Auster.

[flyingphil1]

If you have flown a slingsby, thank God you survived, many haven't ...we were talking about trainers and where I come from this is fighting talk, fortunately I moved but the 400 a similar price to the 150 ? We will have to agree to disagree but flew with a "face" on Thursday and went for a jolly later .... in a 150! he was impressed with a stall turn and all perfectly legal ... 150s are great!!

[foxmoth]

The 150s are alas dying off now and anyone who wont miss them I have nothing but contemp for ...
Agree with Miserlou that this a bit strong, I learnt on them but will certainly not miss them and Miserlou's list has far better aircraft on it, I now teach on the Bulldog and no way could you compare the 150 to that!
but the 400 a similar price to the 150 ?
seems to me this just backs up the statement "The 150 was the cheapest not the best"

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The wild wing drops in the stall were fun and probably good value relative to an expensive fairground ride but in reality nobody is going to be anywhere near stalling (in normal operations) unless they have severely messed up, and that will happen only just before landing, and then one is too low to do anything about it anyway.

I have to disagree with that. The pilot who is fully familiar with his aeroplane in the approach to the stall and the break-away (preferably through becoming competant at flying aeros, but adequate spin training can be very valuable here as well) will, as opposed to a pilot who flies 'by the numbers', probably not stall because he is 'Angle of Attack' aware. But if he gets there, he'll most likely instinctively unload the wings and recover PDQ whereas your 'by the numbers I don't need stall/spin practice and what the heck's an AoA?' pilot will drill a smoking hole in the ground.

SSD

[Miserlou]

Phil,
I didn't say the Robin was a similar price, only that the lower powered models are the same class, ie. training/club use.

But the Slingby is a lovely aircraft with very good manners. I also tried to abuse it to see if it would bite but it couldn't be made to do anything which I didn't expect or recover from. Due to airspace restraints I couldn't really get high enough to accelerate some spins so was unable to test the warning in the handbook that 'if proper spin recovery technique is not used then an accelerated spin may develop which may take up to 5 turns to recover'.
But I did get it to flick out of a few manouvres, drop wings occasionally and do a couple of normal spins. Nothing in any way unusual.

[scooter boy]

Sternone, look at what you have started!
All you asked was a simple question about which little cessa to learn on!

One thing is for sure, as pilots we get awfully emotionally attached to our steeds (I know that I am) and are prepared to argue its virtues (ad nauseam) with anybody who doubts our judgement (whether they are interested or not) - its a little like defending the honour of a lady.;)

This one will run and run...

SB

[flyingphil1]

Back to the original question ..... The 150 is better and cheaper to learn on !!!
There are many variants French ones (God help us) which have better corrosion proofing and the larger engines ones (French again) for the aerobatic ones but the simple 150 in my opinion is a great trainer with the all important "A" in it and the smaller 100 hp engine (very slight differences to the standard) is a great reliable trainer.