Aussie Hour Requ. Question

[dxbpilot]

Hi I was wondering if I can get some advice. I am a australian/british citizen with a JAA lisense. I have looked at the requirements for most of the carriers in Aus eg. Jet* VB Qantas (for F/O). They all say 500PIC ME is requ. Just wondering how it would be looked upon if someone has 2000hrs in the right hand seat of a 737/A320 but no command time ? Or would you simply have to make Capt. first to get a job in Aus ?

cheers

[Howard Hughes]

500 Multi command is a CAO requirement for RPT mulit-crew command above 5700kg's. So you will either require your employer to get a dispensation from CASA, or a hell of a lot of ICUS before you make command. Either that or you can be a permanent F/O.;)

See CAO 82.3 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao82/8203.pdf) for more details.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

PS: I suspect you are not the first to follow this path, so keep asking around someone who has been there before should be able to help!

[haughtney1]

A very good example of a rule being out of date with the times:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

Agreed...:ok:

[astroboy55]

Gday Mr Hughes.
Bugger that rule, hey. :{

[Howard Hughes]

Oh double bugger...:ok:

[Aussie]

Make that a triple! :ok:

[404 Titan]

dxbpilot

As long as you qualify for an Australian ATPL which can be found in CAR 5.172 & 5.173 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/act_regs/1988.pdf), I would suggest you do qualify to fly for most Australian operators. To act as PIC of an Australian aircraft greater than 5700 kg in RPT ops you must meet the following. I have bolded the ICUS bit. I am pretty sure in Europe and most parts of the world if you have a P1 rating on an aircraft and you are the FO, you log it as ICUS or P1US when ever it is your leg. If an airline stipulates 500 multi pic then it may be their own requirements for screening as apposed to a regulatory requirement. I personally would still apply and see what happens, especially as you are an Australian citizen.

CAO 82.3 (Appendix 4 Pg 2)

Category

• Aeroplanes exceeding 5 700 kg MTOW

Qualifications

• Air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence
• Command (multi-engine aeroplane) instrument rating

Minimum Aeronautical Experience

• 2 000 hours total experience as a pilot, that includes:

• 500 hours as pilot in command (or acting as pilot in command under supervision) on multi-engine aeroplanes under the I.F.R.;

and

• 50 hours as pilot in command (or acting as pilot in command under supervision) on the aeroplane type;

and

• 100 hours experience as a pilot on night operations.

[neville_nobody]

For High Capacity RPT it is actually a company stipulated requirement. To fly a 737 there is NO CAO requirement for 500 multi. Virgin and Jetstar just choose to have it that way to stop foreigners with walkup 737 jobs coming in and sharking all the Australian jobs:} :suspect:

In all seriousness though I don't know why these operators bother with the 500 multi requirement. If you get to that level then really it doesn't prove much.

However at the moment if you want a job in Australia you will have to go to Darwin, Kununurra, start on a single work your way to a twin then apply. I cannot see major airlines having a training captain sit in the LHS seat just so you can get 500 ICUS. There are no short cuts in this country :=

[404 Titan]

neville_nobody
I cannot see major airlines having a training captain sit in the LHS seat just so you can get 500 ICUS.
I think you will find if you have a P1 rating as most if not all FO’s for QF, J* and DJ have, you don’t have to have a checker next to you to log ICUS or P1US as it is called in most parts of the world. How do you think a QF cadet is able to move to the left seat when his command comes up? Contrary to popular belief there are no exemptions done for them. It is all in the reg’s and they are followed to the “T”.

[dxbpilot]

Thanks alot for the help guys !

Cheers

[Inbound On Descent]

Only applies to Low-cap RPT ops - hence the name...

Section 82.3

Conditions on Air Operators' Certificate holders authorising regular public transport operations in other than high capacity aircraft

So - operators requirements notwhithstanding, this means by law to fly a Metro or SAAB or -100 Dash, in command RPT, you must have 500 Multi command.

To fly a 737 in similar circumstances - you do not. Go figure.

[neville_nobody]

The other issue here would be can you log ICUS WITHOUT holding the minimum requirements to be a captain?? I was of the understanding that to log ICUS you had to meet all the requirements and experience (Legal and Company) before you could log ICUS as you are "In Command" so to speak. Similarly if you were going to build ICUS with non check and training pilots around can you do that from the RHS???

Just because QF do it at the moment doesn't necessarily mean that it's legal. Would be an interesting one if it went to court or challenged by CASA.

[rmcdonal]

QF challenged by CASA? HAHAHAHA

[404 Titan]

Inbound On Descent
So - operators requirements notwhithstanding, this means by law to fly a Metro or SAAB or -100 Dash, in command RPT, you must have 500 Multi command.
That's not what it is saying at all. Low capacity RPT is less than 50 seats so 500 hours ICUS is OK. While I can’t find the reference off the top of my head for High Capacity RPT (50 seats or more) I do recall it said something similar.

neville_nobody

These are the legal requirements to log ICUS. There is no requirement to be in the left hand seat to log command or ICUS. Nor do you have to have an ATPL if the aircraft requires one to be in command to log ICUS.
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision only if:

(a) the person holds:

(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

or

(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a
commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

and

(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or
her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as
pilot acting in command under supervision; and

(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose
by the operator of the aircraft.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(2) The operator of an aircraft may permit a person to fly an aircraft as
pilot acting in command only if:

(a) the person holds:

(i) a commercial pilot licence, or an air transport pilot licence,
that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft; or

(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were such a
licence; and

(b) the person holds an endorsement that authorises him or her to fly
the aircraft as pilot in command; and

(c) if the person carries out an activity for which a flight crew rating
is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of
flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that
activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned.

Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(3) An offence against subregulation (1) or (2) is an offence of strict
liability.

[rmcdonal]

Doesn't 5.40 (C) say that you do need an ATPL to log ICUS on operations that require an ATPL? Nor do you have to have an ATPL if the aircraft requires one to be in command to log ICUS.

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight
crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or
grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and

I suppose you could interpret it as saying that the Supervising pilot is really in Command and therefore covers it.

[404 Titan]

rmcdonal

No it’s not saying that. All it is saying is that the captain must hold a P1 rating if he is to be in command of the aircraft. It also has reference to C & T rolls etc. The captain must hold an ATPL for the type of operation we are referring to. That is a given requirement. The F/O only requires a CPL but can still log ICUS or P1US if they hold a P1 "rating" in their licence as apposed to a P2 rating.

[M.25]

The CAO references above are for low capacity RPT. High capacity RPT is under CAO 82.5 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao82/8205.pdf).

I can’t see a requirement for any multi PIC.

[404 Titan]

M.25

Yeh, realise CAO 82.3 is only in reference to low capacity RPT. You might be right regarding CAO 82.5. I couldn’t find any reference to crew experience either. I’m sure it use to be there but have no idea where it has gone or where else it can be found.

[Howard Hughes]

Thanks for the correction, next time I had better read the fine print, or in this case, the bolded print!;)

[Inbound On Descent]

404

Fairy 'nuff - ICUS is okay too, but the requirement for 500 multi (either/or) only applies to Low-cap RPT. There is no such requirement for High Capacity ops.

Requirements...

You do not need to hold an ATPL to log ICUS in this situation. Not gonna look up the reference after a few glasses of dirty rotten kiwi semillion, but it's the old "in order to aquire the hours for the requirements of a higher licence" thing.

So you needn't hold the licence you are trying to obtain - obviously. However you must be current in all other things to log ICUS in any given situation, ie: night current to log ICUS at night, IF current to log ICUS under instrument conditions etc...

Incidentally, you don't need to be sitting next to a training/checking/supervisory captain either. Any old skipper will do.

I promise.

Inbound:ok:

[bushy]

Did you really expect to find things that are fair and logical, and reasonable?
It must be easier to fly those big ones.

[404 Titan]

Inbound On Descent
There is no such requirement for High Capacity ops.
Yep and that is why I said I couldn’t find it in CAO 82.5. I would has it a guess though that CASA requires it in each operators Ops manual, hence each operators 500 multi command requirement.