EK ED: Put up or shut up... (The soggy sandwich thread)

[Marooned]

OK Ed, let's start by getting one thing straight... they are not 'missions' they are 'sectors' and for one who has never flown outside of the US it is rich to get lectured on the effects of LR & ULR by the likes of you let alone how little the extended pick up times would have affected us the 'flight crews'.

Now to business: You couldn't deliver the payrise when you said you would and NOW it seems that there is some cunning plan afoot to restrict flight pay to stick hours ie: no flight pay while in the bunk???

And what about the trainers pay review? Are you still looking into that too?

And the budget? Please, it doesn't stop EK buying planes at $150m each and who do you need to stop them from gathering sand? Crewing 101: pilots!!! The ones that are resigning and the ones not turning up.... Who cares if 'we' adversely effect the profit share? EK is not and never has been a co-operative.

Ed, EK is buggered: 50+ trainers short let alone the training requirement to get 150+ pilots on the line to fly your 'missions'... Is it getting through?!?

So do us a favour Ed and forget about the amature jingoistic pep talks about 'missions' and how much you 'care' and 'things will be implimented which we might like', which are quite frankly patronising and becoming insulting, and put up something credible to stop the debacle we know as Flt Ops contributing the myth that everythings all right!!!

We are all being downed by your 'friendly fire' which in laymans term is just BS.

Credibility? None seen.

cc TCAS

[atiuta]

Anyone else got an opinion they would like to share with us today?

[EGGW]

I heard 4 TRE's on the Boeing resigned last week, or thereabouts. Most, and i am not quoting were pissed off at the lack of progress of long range Ed's promises. Just at the time when they need more, the mismanagement continues. CC was amongst them. (ex head of training 777)

EGGW

[critical winge]

Did Ed fly the A10 on his "MISSIONS". Those guys are proven to open fire on the friendlies.

[Check 'Six']

They're cheap skates! Always have been. But the market will very soon, start dictating what needs to be done.

They are in for a big surprise when they announce the trainers pay. They will once again try and BS there way through that as well. At a time when they can ill afford to lose more trainers, which they will.

[Wiley]

Muttley says: While I'm at it, the current pre-flight sandwiches are absolutely loathsome.At last… a topic we can all get passionate about.

I can only agree that the Dubai sangas are a total waste of… (I hesitate to say) ‘food’ – and even if they were wholesome, (which they aren’t! – what culinary mastermind came up with a chicken AND beef mix – in the same ****ing sandwich????), they are then carefully, individually ruined as each and every sandwich is individually wrapped in plastic wrap, turning it into a soggy, inedible glug.

Unlike the abominations out of Dubai, the sandwiches out of London, Paris and Rome start out as fresh, beautifully crusty French bread that, when it’s prepared and packed, might have been very appetizing. But then, (I’m told because one captain complained about the lack of hygiene in having all sandwiches in one tray together), they too are individually tightly wrapped in plastic wrap. Result? - two individually wrapped, soggy, inedible gluggy masses.

EK management could save themselves a fortune by conducting a quick survey among crews to ask one question: how many of those awful bloody sandwiches go straight into the big yellow plastic bag every day? My guess would be 80% to 90% of them.

There’s another fortune to be saved in not using all that sog-inducing plastic wrap or having to pay the caterers who must spend hours each day individually wrapping (and ruining) them.

(Some will say to themselves: “Why’s he complaining about this here on a public forum? Why not write a report to the company?” I’ve tried that, more than once – and it got me about as far as this rant will here.)

[donpizmeov]

Is it true that you are only rationed for 1/2 a sanga, and are to share the banana if you have to spend time in the bunk?:}
Have flown with a fella who takes these sangas home with him for his dinner. I kid you not!!! I made extra sure not to mention the war whilst he was eating.

Keep Digesting

Don

[kingoftheslipstream]

the sandwishes I was proffered the other night... had a sticker on 'em which indicated they were to be consumed by a date which had passed whilst we were in the first couple thousand feet of our climb... so they couldn't be susequently eaten!... so much for the mission munchies!:
I wonder if Mr Ed remembers from his USAF Academy days in C. Springs that a military marches on its stomach... it is simple military doctrine that if you keep a fella fed, he'll die for his cause... it's that simple and that complicated.
As to other matters at hand, well... the pay rise thing is just a stallin' tactic. It's too little too late. The usual EK sleight of hand will be pulled and it will amount to naught in concrete terms...
Working to 65? I don't know wether to laugh or cry... I mean I just flew with a guy in his 40s who was barely alive! I was on my turn for controlled rest, and when I awoke from a short ZZzzz session (all briefed properly), the other guy was sound asleep... with his face in his knees... How the hell are we gonna make to 65?:{
Keep your wits about you gents, don't let the bastards get you down. Stop flying on days off - it's only goin' to hurt us all in the end. There will be a hull loss, and the sneaky slimey ways of rostering altering duty periods to make it look legal after the fact will come to light, and TCAS and LRE will lose nothing, it's us who'll be hung out to dry with the FOM stick... I mean it gents, it's a comin' and it's gonna hurt. Ya can't fool mother nature... :=
k-

[ruserious]

Common guy's what makes you think they care if the sandwiches are edible??
As with everything in EK, its all about cost. They have chosen the sandwiches, based on the absolute minimum cost, while still being able to claim they supply a preflight snack.
Bit like our safety and training departments, its all about minimum cost.

[Wiley]

Many would agree with you, ruserious. If you're right, I'm suggesting they could save themselves a few sheckels by not having to pay the caterers to wrap the the sangers AND at least half of the *** miles of Gladwrap they must go through every day turning the sangers into incipient penicillan traps. (hint, hint)

Hey beancounters - we want something that will save you money.

[donpizmeov]

Hey beancounters - we want something that will save you money.

and an aquaduct. And one of those fury things that hang off the rear view mirror. And how about some more of those oven mitts to keep Maxab happy. You can also rid us of this flight pay scam, and increase the basic salary instead.:E

Don

[CAYNINE]

But don't ya just love the tucker for the flight deck out of Germany.....!!

They just need some bacon or roast pork....yum!

[MTOW]

But don't ya just love the tucker for the flight deck out of Germany.....!!Yup, great sambos out of Deutchland. I had a fantastic 'chicken' sambo out of Hamburg a week or two ago that had a very thick LUMP of meat in it like no chicken I've ever eaten before. I think you'd spell that particular chook's 'cluck' o-i-n-k - but 100% halal of course.

Have to agree with Wiley on the plastic wrapping. Pain in the proverbial.

[Gillegan]

"In all fairness, who amongst us was there at the Training Dept meeting to hear what was really promised, re. this payrise?"

"People here were up in arms at 0001 Local Time on the 1st of Jan when nothing was announced about a "30% payrise", mainly on the strength of posts by others, right here on pprune. "

"Did Ed actually say the pay-rise would be effective this month or didn't he? I wouldn't know and am not getting worked up about it for that reason.

Not sure about the training pay review. If promised and not delivered, well that sucks.

I was at the meeting and what I remember was being told that a payrise (no amount given) had been approved, to be effective from January and that we could expect an additional payrise in May to get the package up to where it needed to be. He did not give a date for the announcement so I too thought that the moaning was a bit premature. Unfortunately much of the cynicism displayed here seems to have been warranted. I have no idea on what basis he said that it had been approved but suffice to say, only the second part of the announcement was delivered on.

Apparently the package for trainers is on TC's desk. I have no idea what has been asked for but at least some of the managers have said that one problem has been an insufficient differential from what guys on the line are actually taking home vs. what the trainers take home. I guess we'll see what happens with that but morale is pretty low among the trainers right now.

What really irks me about all this is that despite insufficient numbers of pilots and trainers and the fact that we are already overworked, the company seems to think that they will be able to cover the shortfall through increased productivity.

Guys (and gals) need to understand that this company will NEVER put the brakes on for you. While it doesn't ALWAYS happen, they will on occasion roster you into the ground. They do however allow you to put on the brakes. (At least in my experience) If you are truly fatigued, call in fatigued and go down to the clinic. It's in the FOM and I think that they would have a hard time removing it. Suggestions by some managers and PPRUNE luminaries that the source of the problem is too much partying is simplistic at best and insulting in the extreme. I would challenge any member of the "Fatigue Committee" to fly a full reserve month and then let us know whether fatigue is a problem. Are there even any active pilots on that committee?

I wouldn't be too hard on Ed. He is the first manager that we've had in a long time that has even acknowledged some of these problems. I'm sure that he thought that he had approval for the above. That things turned out as they have is just a function of the dysfunction that we call EK Flight Ops. I just wonder if he continues to try to bring some logic to our department, how long he's actually going to last. Remember that the last 2 heads of flight operations were ceremoniously escorted off the property by EK security.
(I know, in the second case, not a moment too soon.)

[porkandbrew]

Mr. Long range Eddy is definitely not a manager to put any hope in.
I have first hand experience from this gun-slinger-talk-before-you-think-and- know type manager. Absolutely aggressive. On top of that I personally know three more victims.
On top of that his experience level is totally inadequate. He has no clue what it is like to fly to the type of destinations we operate into.
He is an A320 puddle jumper.
He is a desk jockey who boasts of taking care of his alcoholic Northwest colleague, yet I did not see him stand up for J.D. in any way.
Gillegan, You are wrong. Watch out for this poor excuse of a man.

Pork, usually not this upset...:O

[chinawladi]

Don't take it out on the little mudfish in his tiny auqarium. The real sharks are swimming in the polluted gulf waters. :\

[Andu]

Let's get back to the soggy sandwiches, They're a far more entertaining subject than the other yada yada yada...

And yes, I thought that chicken in Hamburg was abit 'sus' too.

[flareflyer]

Just to increase the amount of smoke.................
does anybody know anything about some 67 transition upgredes on the boeing?
:}
Maybe it is a new joke of tcas & co.....................

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Its a real mess , accelerated guys 777 that havnt even joined EK yet will get commands quicker than the 3 to 4 year Airbus f/os , many more pilots to leave this year. Will be interesting.
Looks Like ANA in japan are offering f/o jobs at around 10k us a month , better than an ek captain and a better chance of upgrade for even more cash...........

[max AB]

Thanks Don, yes oven mitts for every one, they should be called the pilot retention mitts, why would you leave? The sandwiches are not for everyday consumption, I think most people have confused their purpose. As we are on "missions" they must be survival rations. Should have a label on them "If starving, tear plastic"

[donpizmeov]

Or it might read "In case of capture, tear plastic!". Have to save those fuel policy and FTLs secrets from getting out.

Don

[BYMONEK]

Scooter

Sorry to disagree on this one but a year 1 EK skipper is on 10K US/ month if you allow for the accom allowance. With the new pay in May, a brand new Captain will be on around 12K US and that's not allowing for any education contribution from the Company( not everyone has kids), or the Companies 12% contribution to YOUR Provident fund OR the ERP payments ( will depend on Country of origin but for me,currently worth another 500 US/ month alone.) And then there's the cost of living in Japan or the cost on your body with commuting.

I think you'll find that all said and done, we're on a better deal here. Of course, as usual, I stand to be corrected!

[atiuta]

Soda's are only 1 dhs each in Dubai, perhaps we should add that to our salary package to make it look good as well. ;)

I agree with you in principle but a true comparison of two contracts can only be made by looking at year end diposable income remaining/saved. I don't see any change out of my housing allowance (I don't get it) and the ERP falls way short of my losses due to exchange rates. Schools are going to cost in any expat contract and I expect the company to pick up the tab for most if not all of it.

[fo4ever]

True Mr. Scooter.

Thats the exact reason why I will be leaving EK.

fo4ever
3+ FO looking at 4,5 years to upgrade

[Tail Rota]

fo4ever

why leave now when you are so close.....:ugh:

where are you going to go?
and when you get there how long to command in that company?
will it stretch your time to the left side even further?

so many guys talk about leaving because it takes so long to command at EK :{ ......THINK GUYS BEFORE YOU LEAP.......anyone sitting at three years or more would be nuts to pull the pin now.....the 380 is nearly here and when it arrives you will regret leaving .....:D

the guys behind you will have got your slot and you will be still right side with another operator saying if only....:=

its your life fellas but think beyond next week....:E


TR:ok:

[BYMONEK]

I don't get the accom allowance either as I'm in a Company villa. Do you get housing with ANA on top of that 10k? If so, good deal. If not then housing in Japan will be expensive..........unless you're single and happy to rent a room in between commuting!

YoDawg

Why not just eat the apple?

[ShockWave]

Housing allowance in Dubai is no bennifit unless you have decided to buy your own place to live. If you plan on renting a villa and paying for water, electricity, municiple houseing tax,sewage levy, telephone lines etc etc you will be up for around 240,000 +aed per year. And that is about double the allowance. Take the company villa and don't move out, that is the only viable option.

If you insist on taking the allowance and renting then you must factor in the 120,000aed paycut!

[uplock]

I agree with Scooters comments and also Shockwave is correct before the wind up merchants jump in check out the gulf news (http://www.gulfnews.com/classifieds/classified_articles5848.html?path=/channels/gulfnews_com/classifieds/Dubai_x_N_Emirates/Properties/Villas_To_Let/)classifieds for what you have to fork out to get a Villa heres an example from todays gulf classifieds for a 3 bedroom villa Al Moosawi Real Estate offers in Meadows 9, Type- 3, 3 B/R + study. Rent Dhs 230,000/- P.A. Contact Sandeep on 050-8418387 / 04-3988994.

BYMONEK You stand to be corrected taking into account the Utilities Allowance you could argue we are in Negative Territory It is no advantage these days having the allowance unless you own a property or reside in a small apartment. All for the reasons explained above byShockwave / Scooter

For the record I bin my sangas....

[yardman]

Guys,
Just my two cents worth. I find the argument about housing and lack of value thereof to be slightly disingenuous for the following reason. Much is made about moving out of company accomadation and having all that extra cash, which is then considered part of one's renumeration. This argument is superfulous, simply because whether you live in company housing or not, you still need to put a value on it. Yes many say that they have to provide it or we wouldn't be here etc. This is to some extent true, but it's a non-argument in my opinion. Which one of us wouldn't have left our home countries and joined United or Delta when the captains were earning $300,000 if we could have. Yes I know we don't earn that kind of money but the principle is the same. Delta or United wouldn't have provided accomodation for us. Neither does any other carrier back home. What EK housing allows us to do is rent out our houses back home that we would have otherwise been living in and have the mortgage paid for us by a tenant that we would otherwise have had to pay out of our salaries, or, if the mortgage is already paid for, that it's cash that goes towards the bottom line.
I think guys who move out of EK housing to rent a villa are really silly, and it's somewhat unreasonable to turn around and blame EK for that when rents go up. We all know the deal, once out you can't go back in. And we move out knowing what the allowance is and how high inflation is.
I'm not saying that the housing situation is the best and we should be grateful etc. But the standard of EK accomodation is by and large very good, and I think it's only fair to to put a value on it when considering the package that we get.
Fire away!

[uplock]

Yup said like a real trooper who has been here 5 minutes......Housing is pretty good now days was not all ways the case yardman Some what a simplistic outlook with out an understanding of the historical background that went along with the introduction of the Increased Utility Allowance.

There was a time ....when it generated revenue for certain landlords and the allowance was very small, the intention to discourage any movement out of the accommodation. Great Cash Cow also for the Villa Owners.

The company policy at that time, went along the words "that if you do not like the company supplied accommodation for any reason you must take the allowance and move"
Lots of reasons why guys took the Utility Allowance, one I can recall is that it is supposed to be reviewed on a annual basis. Facts are some what disappointing some years no review at all and when it has been the review has not even kept pace with inflation.

EK did not keep their side of the written agreement . All ways more than 1 side to a storey.

[BigGeordie]

That still is the company policy, isn't it?:ugh:

[ShockWave]

also... not everyone comes here with a property in their home country that they can rent out! AND not all EK property is viable for long term habbitation, however the accom dept being mostly from the sub-continent think anything outside of a slum is just fine for us ungrateful westerners.

The propblem is easily fixed. Simply increase the allowance to the required rental levels(ask us to supply proof of costs if required) or implement a proceedure for allowing people to return to company accom.

If you want to keep long term employees you must acknowledge that people's circumstances and the housing situation in the UAE will also change with time.
Right now it is just another problem that EK management do not want to know about.

[yardman]

Uplock,
While I don't really want to engage in a pissing contest, I can't really see why you take issue with my basic premise that if one is being objective one should place some monetary value on the accomodation. I think that's perfectly reasonable. Your assertion that I've "been here for 5 minutes", is very patronising, as you imply that I'm not really entitled to an opinion or that it is somehow less valid than yours. How long, in your opinion, does one have to be employed at EK to form a valid impression of the place, and what makes your opinon any more sound than mine, or anyone else's for that matter? I'll put it to you that my honeymoon phase with EK ended a long time ago.
There are some people in life who are contented simply because they choose to be so. That is not to say that they are oblivious to the reality around them. I am one such person. Bitching and moaning only makes me feel worse, not better. When I've had enough of the crap I'll leave. You and I obviously see things differently. If you're unhappy well I'm sorry. I sincerly wish that you find contentment in this job or where ever your future endevours take you. For me, having looked around at the possible alternatives out there, my crap bucket has a while to go before I think seriously about leaving this place. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[ShockWave]

Chillllll........guys.

I think the point has been made that the Accom situation in EK is not as simple as it first appears.

What is a 4 bed villa worth where you come from?
If you came from Bangalor it will be considerably different from Sydney or London.
If you were paying $1000 a week to live in a house in your home country and then came to EK and take the free villa, you could say that you are now earning an extra $1000 but you are no longer living in your home town or just down the road from Mum and Dad so is it really worth that much to you?
You will also need to spend a lot of money making it your home if you are serious about spending any time here.

If you buy a property and gamble that real estate prices will at least not go down, then probably half of your accom allowance can go towards paying the interest on your morgage. the other half will help pay for gas, water, electricity, taxes and maintenance fees. If real estate prices continue to rise you will win if they go down you may lose.

If you are currently renting a villa in Dubai you are now paying around 120,000 aed extra per year out of you own pocket.

Sooo... Placing a value on EK accom is very very subjective and completely different for everyone of us.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

There is some saving to be had living in company accom but if you pay your house off back home you can live there for next to nothing as well.
Schooling is a farce, some lucky countries offer free schooling of a better standard and the 10% shortfall in fees in DXB is still more than the fees in a lot of civilised countries.
The salary for a EK Captain is barely 8K us with base salary , thats the bottom line, its also close to a CX s/o salary.

[ruserious]

Kinda says it all http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070306.html

[Desert Nomad]

If you go back about 5 years ago the Accom allowance that was provided was ver reasonable. EK made it so to encourage staff to move out of EK accommodation as they just did not have enough of it to cope. They achieved that objective but are no longer compensating staff for the spiralling costs. Also, regardless of your status the allowance is the same. Single, married, children etc. Perhaps they should contemplate scaling the allowances based on family situation

[FTA]

The allowance is more than adequate for a single guy in a 2 bed apartment.
And he gets an all-you-can-eat hostie allowance.

[Vorsicht]

Just explain to me how it is you feel, that by me spending 40,000dhs on education and getting 30,000 back from the company, you are being discriminated against. My limited accounting skills would indicate you are 10k better off.

So basically the way i see it is, the more kids I have the better off you are!!!!!:ok: :ok: :ok:

With that sort of reasoning, i reckon i would make a good manager at EK.:}
V

[MR8]

Vorsicht,
Please explain me how we single guys do exactly the same work as you, without getting the 30000 extra, no villa, no wife to do washing, cleaning, cooking etc... :}
So if you guys get the education allowance, we should get a 'take care of all the daily chores' allowance... Fair deal? :E
If you look at the basics, you are getting paid MORE for the SAME work. Whatever your personal situation is, is... well... personal!
MR8

[HPSOV L]

Ahhh...slightly twisted logic there MR8; while the cost to the company is higher, a pilot with children in school does not actually receive any financial advantage as this "allowance" goes straight in to the schools account. I suppose you could argue that a private education is some sort of quantifiable advantage, however (where I come from at least) the state provides a very good education for free.

[Homer J. Simpson]

Speaking of unfair....those of us who have the U.S. as our ALD are not eligible for the Exchange Rate Program. I am doing the exact same job as the Euro or Pound guy...yet they get an extra 2,000 or 2,500 dhs a month more than me. That's a load of horses**t.

[kingoftheslipstream]

homer... :rolleyes:
ERP is not that high. I got 1300 Dhs on my Feb pay. That's not very much in real terms.
Is this news to you? Did you not know this before coming to EK? Did you not read pprune to find out about this stuff before signing on? Did you think it was not true? Whom, precisely, is responsible here?:ugh:
k-o-t-s

[gl69]

The ERP is pure bunk. When the dollar is strong you get a pay raise. So the pilots from countries not tied to the dollar get more money when they send their salaries home.
When the $ is weak like it is now the same pilots get ERP and that amount is significant. Whatever the amount is it is more than pilots from dollar pegged currencies are getting.
So as you can see these same pilots get a double bonus. Either way the dollar goes they make more than pilots from US currencies.
We all live in Dubai, we all work for Emirates but as you can see some pilots make more than others through circumstances of where they reside or are from.
The accomadation allowance and education is a complete and separate issue. If you have kids it was probably a free choice and now we have to pay for them. Most would conclude that the joy far outweighs the cost at any level. The bottom line is that the education does not even come close to "making extra money" on the education allowance so it is a expense that we have to cover each year and not extra money.
The accomadation allowance also does not come close to covering your expenses. So again you are dipping into your pocket to live. It is not and should not be included as "income."

[Ghostflyer]

Can we rename this the 'Wingeing Bast*rds' thread. I haven't been given a company Ferrari or Man Utd season ticket either....get a life.

[Vorsicht]

Extremely well spoken. It will come as no surprise to anyone why you are still single. Have you ever thought of running that thought past your latest girlfriend. No? Didn't think so. Good Luck!

V

[Homer J. Simpson]

k.o.t.s.,

I was well aware of the ERP when I joined....that's not my gripe. I think it's a bunch of bull that you get extra money just because.

Awwwww....you only got 1300 dhs extra in your pay...I got extra dhs 0 in my pay. Hey, if it's not much in real terms, go ahead and deposit it in my bank account, I'll pm you the details. It's real to me.

You guys get extra money and STILL bitch about it.

Whatever.:mad: :ugh: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Gillegan]

The ERP is a dual edged sword. For those from countries with currencies stronger than the dollar (pretty much everyone these days), you have taken a pretty strong hit against your home currency that the ERP does not completely cover. It was a condition on joining and I don't begrudge you that. On the other hand, a pilot of my seniority from the UK is receiving approximately Dh3000 per month extra in ERP. We both live in the same place, have approximately the same living expenses etc., yet he is making more. Then again, I'm not taking the hit compared with my home currency that he is. It was a condition when I signed on so I can't complain too much.

The company is benefitting from all this in two ways: first, we're now turning on each other rather than directing our ire where it belongs, and second, most of the companies receipts are in non-dollar based currencies which actually benefits their dollar based bottom line. A bottom line that they seem less and less willing to share with their employees.

[MR8]

Vorsicht,
Thought you'd recognize a tongue in cheek reply when you see one... Apparently not. (dressed it up with enough smileys to make it clear though..)You must be very bitter and frustrated: might be better if you send your wife over to my place for a good .. :mad: ... euh... time.. lol :E
Everybody can complain about some stuff. Fact is, all that you guys are wingeing about, are things you KNEW when you came here, ERP, educational or living-out allowances...
ERP, is complete BS. Not even worth mentioning.
Educational: even in the western world you will have to pay for schooling, maybe not as much as here, but it will cost something. Nothing wrong with the educational allowance, apart from 1 thing: why only 3 kids?? The 4th doesn't need education?
Living-out allowance: enough said about that already
...
Get a grip guys, go out more and enjoy the weather this time of year. Keep some of the frustrations for summertime.. :cool:
MR8