Piper Super Cub : Whats it like?

[StarbucksOne]

Hi All
After 220 hours flying PA28s and 172s the time is right have a go at flying the Cub. Have first hour booked for next weekend.

Would love to hear views on what I can expect!

Cheers

[hobbit1983]

It's awesome :ok: The one I've flown has very little in the way of avionics (just compass, ASI, alt, t/s -no di/AH/radio navaids etc) and just the one radio. The cockpit is very spacious (it's a later-model supercub) and feels quite robust.

It's got very good shortfield performance, and generally is very nice to fly. Having said that, I've very little experience on type, and others will be able to tell you more.

The most tricky part so far I've found is getting into the damn thing! It is a lot of fun though, so I expect you won't regret it :ok: .

[slim_slag]

After 220 hours of spamcan you should expect to be challenged again, especially where you might not expect it - i.e on the ground! Super Cubs are great fun, you will never look back.

[robin]

Suddenly, you'll start to understand that the rudder pedals are for more than steering on the ground. You'll be introduced to the joys of landing an aircraft that won't gloss over minor inaccuracies in your technique

But, best of all, you'll be flying something that is fun.

[slim_slag]

Yeah, robin, well said. Also your spamcan landings will improve dramatically.

[High Wing Drifter]

Not for me, my first landing in an Arrow after my t/d conversion was bloody awful :\ I blame going from finger tips to brute force (twas a T-tail Arrow).

[StarbucksOne]

Thanks so far guys.

When you say "its fun" can you eloborate? - why is it fun exactly? am curious...my perception is that

* it'll give me a new challenge, which of course is fun in itself.
* I'll develop stick n rudder skills and get fun from "feeling" the aircraft more
* better all ground visibility from the air (hi wing/tandem seating)
* be fun to fly a true classic instead of a "spamcan" - I mean just look at it...what a lovely machine...

[robin]

Speaking personally, flying something like a Cub after the usual suspects is not just about learning new techiques - it is a whole new way of flying and everything that goes with it. It's like seeing TV in colour after years of a black and white TV :yuk:

It opens up the world of strip flying, which in turn means you start looking at making more of your own decisions, rather than letting ATC do it for you. For me it meant joining the local PFA Strut and getting involved with fly-ins.

When I was flying spamcans and renting from a club, I had little to do with other members of the club, and my flights were solitary.

Flying slower often means operating lower and with limited panels. You get to read the weather better, as the aircraft are lighter and more prone to being affected by adverse weather (esp crosswinds)

But, you'll find it difficult to stop smiling when you do get it right.

[J.A.F.O.]

You asked for people to elaborate so I thought I'd share how it went for me on my tailwheel conversion:

If you read The Compleat Taildragger Pilot by Harvey S. Plourde, and you should; he lists seven reasons for learning to fly a tailwheel aircraft. As I could tick five of them I thought that it was probably time that I bit the bullet and booked some lessons to give it a go. Like many people trying to support a flying habit I have to do so around family commitments and earning almost enough to pay for it; therefore time is somewhat limited and it was for that reason that I unwittingly set myself the challenge of learning to fly a taildragger in two and a half days.

After looking around and taking some advice from friends and magazines alike, as well as from Pprune, I ended up calling The Northampton School of Flying at Sibson. I was lucky enough to speak to Lucy Kimbell who arranged enough slots within the time to make it seem possible for me to do it. I arrived at a somewhat gusty Sibson on Wednesday morning with eight slots booked before two-thirty on Friday and only the tiniest inkling of what I was letting myself in for.

The welcome at Sibson was warm and friendly and I was given a full tour before being introduced to Frank McClurg, the school’s Chief Flying Instructor. Frank checked out my pitifully empty logbook with less than a hundred spamcan hours in it and didn’t even wince at my still shiny licence before taking me to the hangar to meet G-ARVO, the school’s bright yellow Piper PA-18-95. In General Aviation there seems to be something to suit every taste and most pockets; a lot of people fall for sleek and shiny glass fibre rockets with televisions where the dials should be; glass on the inside, glass on the outside but I’d fallen in love with this sixty year old fabric covered machine; I could just about imagine sitting inside, floating high above the English countryside; dope on the outside, dope on the inside, you might say.

We dragged G-ARVO from the hangar and Frank showed me a thorough pre-flight inspection before we came to the week’s first big challenge. How does a six-foot healthily built chap get himself into the pilot’s seat? With some difficulty, is the simple answer but eventually, and with a complete absence of grace and style, I was in. There is very little inside a Cub to check and so we were soon started and taxying, Frank explained that he’d talk me through a take-off and then we’d head out for some general handling before coming back for my first tailwheel landing. I was amazed at the visibility from the front seat, if you’re six feet tall with only about twenty-five percent of that made up of short, fat hairy legs then the view over the nose is quite exceptional. We taxied out to the end of 24 and Frank gently opened the throttle, raising the tail as he did so; I never did work out how he kept it that straight, didn’t smash the propeller into a thousand splinters or saw past my prop forward’s shoulders but, before I had time to take anything in, we were airborne. It had all been quite disconcerting as the aircraft took off with no-one visibly controlling it; just Frank’s quiet, calm confidence behind me.

Frank gave me control and I climbed quite slowly in the direction of Molesworth, the view over the nose and out of both sides was incredible, here I was perched under those little yellow wings flying one of the icons of light aviation. I don’t have a lot to compare the Cub to but I loved it right from the start, a proper stick and a proper throttle and an aeroplane that you could feel moving underneath you. Once I’d got the hang of something different then the turns were great fun and the stall never really happened, I’m sure with a decent headwind you’d just end up back at the airfield without turning round or the nose ever nodding downwards. Then Frank took control of my proper throttle and closed it.

‘Let’s try a forced landing. Seventy knots for the glide.’

The Cub seemed to hang in the air and I therefore chose a field which was only about three miles further than we could possibly ever glide from two and a half thousand feet. Following Frank’s timely intervention and demonstration of a side slip in which the world pauses and merely moves up the windscreen, we would have made a lovely landing in the brown corduroy of quite a different field altogether.

Then it was back to Sibson for my first ever tailwheel landing. If you’ve never tried to land a tailwheel aircraft – which, in my opinion, you should do and do it today – then you might not appreciate that the aircraft must be heading dead straight at touchdown; however, that is no guarantee of the way you will be heading three nanoseconds later, or three nanoseconds after that. If you don’t dance on the rudder pedals like Fred Astaire on cocaine then the aircraft could go any way at all and you could end up in a groundloop where the aircraft turns round by itself and has a look at where you came from. They say that there are two types of tailwheel pilot; those who have groundlooped and those who are waiting to; for me the waiting was almost over.

The circuit and descent were as I’d always done before, with the aeroplane clearly not giving a damn where its wheels were, the flare was very similar and then we were down; after a fashion. My feet were clearly half a swing behind my brain which was another half a swing behind the aeroplane. With all that swinging going on it was only a matter of time before G-ARVO slowly and gracefully turned round to give me a view of the approach.

A coffee, debrief and some good natured questioning about why Frank had had to get out of the aeroplane and turn it round by hand before we taxied back and it was time for some more. If you’ve ever been to a summer fete where one of the attractions was a crazy bicycle where nothing is connected the right way round and none of your inputs seem to affect a machine with a will of its own then you will have an idea of how the taxying went. If you’ve ever fallen off one of those bicycles then you know all there is to know about my first take-off.

Circuit after circuit followed with the occasional decent landing and the odd almost reasonable take-off; though never together in the same circuit. The taxying began to get easier as well without having to stop and ask Frank to turn the aircraft for me. For the penultimate circuit Frank showed me again just how easy it could seem and we ended the day with an unaided take-off and landing that we not only survived but managed to keep the aircraft all in one piece, too.

By the end of the day I was completely shattered and probably sweatier than anyone you’d ever choose to share a cockpit with. This aeroplane was delightful to fly but nigh on impossible to take-off or land. As I drove away from the airfield a red kite hung four feet above a bush, judging the wind perfectly and hanging in the air while it watched its prey; I know that bird’s beaks don’t actually allow them to smirk at passing motorists, however...

Day two of two and a half arrived and we waited in NSF’s clubhouse for the showers to pass. People had said to me that learning to fly a taildragger was like learning to fly all over again, it wasn’t, it was far more difficult; more like learning to juggle, in public and starting off with four flaming torches rather than two bean bags.

Three hours of circuits and bumps later and, while Frank assured me that it was coming together and it would soon just click into place, I wasn’t sure that I’d ever master this lark. I’d more or less got the idea of taxying; getting the weight off the tailwheel ever so slightly, bursts of power to get round, always thinking of where the wind was; it seemed like an expensive lesson in moving an aeroplane on the ground. Frank had taught me to feel when the aeroplane was right and get the picture right rather than chasing numbers. He was quite right, I could now feel when she was ready to fly, when she was getting too slow or too fast. When it looked right and felt right then it had to be right. I’m sure that it was coming together, just as I was told, it seemed a little bit more possible each time, the aeroplane and I at least shared the decision making now, rather than it all being up to G-ARVO. I was feeling a little dejected, though; I was a pilot, I had a licence, I should be making more of the decisions.

Friday dawned clearer and brighter with a lighter wind which almost lined up with the runway, I was feeling brighter too. If only I could almost line up with the runway at some point before two-thirty then we might even get this done. Even though I’d booked well in advance Frank had been booked solid for the day and so I was flying with James Bryan, another of the club’s instructors and one of the few men who can make a six-foot, sixteen stone ex-rugby player feel small; I felt quite sorry for little G-ARVO as we dragged her into the sun.

I started her up and taxied round to the holding point, quick bursts of power to move the slipstream over that rudder and get her round. Power checks complete and ready for departure. Onto 24, nice and straight, add power gently bringing the tail up at the same time, speed increasing, dancing on the pedals anticipating the swing before it started, ease off that forward pressure as we meet the slight bump on the runway then continue to ease it off and we’re airborne. Climbing out but not for long.

‘Level it off there.’ James instructs me. ‘I get hypoxic if we go any higher than this.’

As a low-houred PPL, who is used to climbing out to two and a half thousand feet where everybody else is, to have levelled out whilst not quite at circuit height is a new one on me.

‘You’re a taildragger pilot, now.’ James tells me.

He guided me to Deenethorpe along a track he knew well; pointing out the site of Fotheringhay castle where Mary lost her head, the faint tracks of Roman roads still marking the landscape beneath, crop marks that showed where people had lived two thousand years before, looking up at this sky that was now mine. Green fields bordered by darker hedgerows; the occasional church spire in a far off village; clouds of dust following harvesting tractors; fluffy white cumulus clouds in the unending blue above and around me; the feel of an aeroplane that wanted to fly and almost seemed to enjoy this as much as me.

Deenethorpe, asphalt, less forgiving than grass for tailwheel pilots, I’m told. Straight in, all looking good, all feeling good; the foundations that Frank had laid over two days all holding me up. Straight down the middle, holding it off, keeping her flying, holding off, all three wheels touch, we’re straight, we’re staying straight. James opens up the power slightly, just enough to raise the tail, and gets me to steer down the middle of the runway; I’m clenching my teeth so tight I think that I might break them but we stay fairly straight and then open the throttle to fly off and do it again and again. Whilst I am still working hard, it is all falling into place, I am getting this, I am not a completely uncoordinated buffoon after all. I could do this all day if I could afford to but if God had meant us to fly he would have given us more money.

Off to Conington, a landaway, I haven’t done nearly enough of those since I got my licence. Join downwind, checks complete, turn base, start the descent, turn finals, the winds thirty degrees off and fourteen knots; time for more teeth clenching. It all seems to work, though and the little waggle into wind after landing isn’t too embarrassing. We park up and unfold ourselves from the aircraft for coffee and bacon sandwiches before the return to Sibson and a three pointer that stays straight.

‘Okay,’ James tells me after we’ve refuelled, ‘go over towards the masts, get the feel of it without me in it, have some fun and come back when you’re ready.’

I’m going solo.

The tail moves round much more easily with only me on board, sat up front. Open the throttle and the tail comes up easily, we’re airborne before I’ve had the chance to worry about it swinging. Climb out and have some fun, that’s what the man said. She climbs more quickly and I’m soon up at three thousand feet, finding my way round turns, climbing, descending, just plain looking out of the window and smiling. The winds been a bit gusty and has been varying by thirty degrees either side of the runway and up to sixteen knots, then I hear Charlie Kimbell in the Tiger Moth call finals.

‘230 at 8 knots,’ he’s told.

Sounds like it’s time for me to head back before it changes its mind.

Join downwind; no overhead joins here, it’s also a parachute school, run through my checks, here we go. Everything looks good on final and the wind hasn’t changed its mind. Power off, flare, hold it off, she floats more now than before, keep holding off, all three points.

‘Nine and a half out of ten.’ The radio informs me.

I taxy in and shut down at twenty-eight minutes past two; two minutes short of my deadline.

So, it seems as though it is possible to go from groundloop to greaser in two and a half days, even with my lack of co-ordination, but you have to be very lucky; lucky with the school you choose, lucky with your instructors, lucky with the weather and lucky with aircraft serviceability. I really can’t thank everyone at Northampton School of Flying enough, for the warm welcome and excellent instruction and the excellent engineering which meant that I always had an aircraft to fly.

So, now you’ve seen that it can be done, I would wholeheartedly recommend that you give it a go too. It’s a challenge but it’s impossible to overstate what it will do for your confidence and enthusiasm for flying.

[strake]

It seemed to me, if ever there was an aeroplane that hated moving on the ground...this was it.

All I can remember is my instructor laughing hysterically as we veered and weaved down the runway...first one way then the other as I gamely overcorrected tried to keep the thing straight....and that was just taking off.

After pulling on everything hard, I managed to get into the air on the very margins of the airfield. Three or more minutes of enjoyment before time to force the B****y thing back onto the ground...more entertainment for the back seat.....

Of course, after about ten hours, you work it out. Let the aircraft do the job itself. You just need to provide the tiniest, tiniest inputs.

Then she flies like a dream...:)

[tacpot]

Great post JAFO. I also did my tailwheel difference training with Frank on G-ARVO, but when NFS were based at Sywell and ARVO was blue.

The view out the front is truely amazing, and I'd forgotten about how much easier ARVO was without an instructor in the back. I've since frlown Cessna 140s and Aerona Chiefs where the side-by-side seating means much less difference in pressure on the tailwheel when the instructor gets out.

Good luck StarbucksOne

[High Wing Drifter]

robin,
Speaking personally, flying something like a Cub after the usual suspects is not just about learning new techiques - it is a whole new way of flying and everything that goes with it.My perspective is that it is different, but not that different. I'll refrain from saying additional fun I can't say that t/d is more fun than flying anything else, just different. For me the incredibly basic and austere nature of the t/d that I fly encouraged confidence in shedding all the pointless gadgets and knickknacks. One even learns that sans radio is a total non event, good job because for an aircraft without the ability to charge on the ground it can be a frequent event.

If you want to have the opportunity to completely turn everything you thought about flying on its head, try a Pitts; that really is an eye opener in more ways than one!!

[J.A.F.O.]

Cheers, tacpot. I normally don't ramble on quite that much but the Cub got me like that.
I've had a chance to fly one nearer to home recently - I almost bought into it but unfortunately it's not the right time for me for several reasons - anyway I sat in the back this time and it was no less magical, the view all around, no radio and, from the back, not even any instruments to worry about just the feel of the aeroplane.
I'm not lucky enough to have a great deal to compare it with but, in my opinion at least, it deserves its place in the aviation hall of fame.

StarbucksOne - Good luck, you'll love every second.

[BigAl's]

Hi Pruners,

I may have the opportunity to buy a share in a cub and am really after some advice. I have just recently qualified (2 weeks ago!), and am looking for something cheap and cheerful to do some hour building in... also somehting a little different and interesting. So, the q is, am I taking too much on after 50hrs in a PA28?

Would appreciate thoughts etc.

Ta muchly,

[J.A.F.O.]

No, you're not taking on too much, get some decent instruction and you'll never look back.

[RatherBeFlying]

Converted to the Citabria last year. The airport vultures are always well entertained when there's a first time t/d pilot learning how to taxi:\

Came away from the first lesson with sore calf muscles.

You always want to taxi good and slow, but also need enough speed / momentum to get the beast turning where you want it to go. Fast enough, but not too fast takes a bit of learning.

You first need to become very fussy in your favorite spamcan with precisely tracking the centerline on takeoff and landing with zero drift and a proper holdoff.

Do that preparation and your takeoffs and landings will progress quickly.

The other trick is to be quick to catch any deviations with the rudder while they're still small.

And don't forget that every rudder movement on the ground usually calls for a smaller counter-movement not too long after.

Taming the Taildragger Pilot is highly worth reading:
http://www.ameliareid.com/documents/Taming.pdf

[Lister Noble]

I started my tailwheel conversion at Clacton last August,
almost immediatley after I got my PPL licence,well 6.5 hours later .
It took me around 10 hrs over a two week period due to weather to get my tailwheel sign off , I was fortunate to buy a share in a local L4 Cub straight away, and now have around 11 hours on that.
I would say do it as soon as you think you are ready.
It started off seeming almost impossible because of the "massive" control inputs I put in on the ground.
But it does eventually click and then your inputs will be gentle and almost non-existent but non-stop!
Have fun

Lister:)

[Pitts2112]

JAFO,

Superb post. If you haven't done so already, have you thought of publishing it? It might read very well in the PFA mag or one of the other three. You captured the essence of it very well, I thought.

Starbucks, BigAl,

You're definitely not taking on too much at any point. Remember that, until the 152 in the mid-60s (?) ALL basic pilot training was done on tailwheels, from hour 0!

For me it opened up the door to the Pitts, which was always the point, but, unexpectedly, it opened up much more basic and interesting flying that I've enjoyed immensely. I'm not all that interested in the equipment and environment that comes with more advanced aviation. I much prefer the basic, grass-roots, park it under a tree type of flying, low and slow, watching the world go by close up. When you spend enough time in one airplane, you won't need any of the already-basic instruments at all but you learn to fly it viscerally, using all your senses at their peak awareness (course, that's partly true for most airplanes anyway).

I haven't flown anything with a nosewheel in about 8 years and, while it can be interesting and more practical, I don't miss anything about it.

Go for it and at least you can critique the exercise afterward having done it, rather than sit at the front of the door having never gone in (or some kind of metaphor like that).

Pitts2112

[norilsk]

Super cubs are great but the best handling are L4 Cubs and they certainly teach energy conservation!

[Andy_RR]

I did my tailwheel differences at Headcorn in the Tiger Club's G-BBYB. It would be overstating it to call it a life-changing experience, but it nearly was - honestly! :)

It is the most delightful aircraft I have ever soloed in. I can't wait to get back to fly it some more. Ultimately, I feel the pull of the challenge of soloing in a Tiger Moth at some point, although I can't believe people actually learned to fly in those things!

I think the Cub is a lesson in 'less-is-more' - including the control inputs! :)

A

[Arclite01]

Awesome post J.A.F.O.

Mimics my experiences totally.

The best time you have is summer evenings - a breath of wind, buzzin' around at 500' dropping into grass strips with an average length of 350 metres, seeing some friends - everyone loves to see a cub and have a trip if possible.

When I was living in east anglia I did 6 strips in one hour, one evening - just awesome and ended the evening with my mates for a pint in the Gamekeeper at Old Buckenham village (they had 30 mins each as Pax).

Just the best - happy times.

Lister - you lucky chap :)

Arc

[john_tullamarine]

Unless I missed it, no-one mentioned one minor vice on the SuperCub .. from an on-speed trimmed low speed approach to the miss, the forward stick load will catch you by surprise the first couple of times .. be prepared to use both hands and then somehow work out how to wind the trim forward.

Otherwise a fairly conventional tailwheel ... however, I think the fellow who coined the phrase "the most fun you can have with your clothes on" certainly was talking about SuperCubs ...

[StarbucksOne]

Fascinating reading - thanks all...can't wait:E

[High Wing Drifter]

John,

I'd not noticed that particular vice, probably I did at the time but the memory hasn't stuck. What stays with me is the heel brakes. What kind of twisted mind conceived of that abomination! Made up for in spade by the thrill of meandering along a few hundred feet above the ground in a tandem cockpit.

[john_tullamarine]

Could have been a quirk of the several Cubs I flew (all glider towing and related flying). The Type was my first tailwheel and the instructor gave me a good going over (I had to start towing the next day). The first miss just about gave me heart failure .. the rotten sod had briefed me but then he just sat back laughing (while keeping a close eye on the proceedings).

Great machine for paddocks .. with the gliders, one had plenty of outfield paddock retrieves ... I recall one paddock where the only option, late in the afternoon, was into sun .. long grass and rocks, sheep, etc., make for eyes wide open on the flare and roll out.

I won't relate any other dreadful tales .. pleading the stupidity of youth .. but we collectively did the odd thing or two which probably we would choose not to do now .. can remember thinking that the chap who checked me out for paddock retrieves probably didn't need to do the steep turns under the canopy of a large tree ....

A couple of us, on wave camps in the mountains, would get all the birds launched and then wave soar in the Cubs for an hour or two for the fun of it ..

Towing two gliders to/from camps used to be fun ... .. I recall a couple of such trips where the gliders dropped into country airstrips (several times) rather than run the gauntlet of weather ...

The Blanik which pulled to high tow and off on a booming day at about 300 feet shortly after takeoff ... pity the student in the front seat didn't adhere to the "have a look at the tow rope going after you pull the bung and before you roll off" ... an interesting inverted view of the aerodrome surrounds .. lost the rope and managed to pull out of the departure above the trees .. but not much above ..

Wonderful machines for spot landings .. full slip into the flare ... with the occasional ring and last foot of the cable left on the boundary fence if one didn't judge the approach well ..

The stories can go on and on ...

Can't ever recall any problems with the heel brakes .. but, then again, they never worked all that well anyway.

Seriously, though, I heartily recommend glider towing to any of you who wish to polish up your flying .. nothing like a chap in back who wants a perfect tow in minimum time (=money) to give you unsoughtafter advice post flight on where you went wrong ...

[Andy_RR]

There's sometimes a little screw in the cockpit wall just at the right position to skin your knuckles on, so every tug pilot has a permanent scar on the right hand from this...

That must be on the left-hand-drive version! :}

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

If you think Cubs are fun (which they are - Super and L4), try a Chippy. :ok:

SSD

[robin]

...ah, now you are talking.

The Cub is only a start. After mastering that, there are a host of tail-draggers to go for for even more fun......

[Small Rodent Driver]

Oi! What about J3,s?:*

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

J3 is only an L4 without the extra glazing. They're fun as well, I guess, just don't have as good a view out. :)

[FlyingForFun]

Took me a while to find it, but here's my write-up of my first flight in a Cub. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42121) Admittedly it was a Super Cub, but close enough to the earlier cubs for the experience to probably be similar.

FFF
---------------

[effortless]

you will never look back.

Oh I reckon that he will end up facing backwards at least once.:}

[Small Rodent Driver]

J3 is only an L4 without the extra glazing. They're fun as well, I guess, just don't have as good a view out.

Correction. An L4 is only a J3 with the extra glazing:)

Sometimes it's better not to be able to see out.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The most tricky part so far I've found is getting into the damn thing!

Especially when you've only got a very few seconds to get into the thing, shut the door, and start the engine, before the wind blows it the wrong way. (Cheating is allowed - it's not against the rules to switch on the master switch before you untie the mooring rope, push off from the jetty and jump aboard, thereby saving yourself a second or so.)

[Monocock]

If I could only fly one aircraft ever again it would be the SuperCub

[Pitts2112]

As is often the case, I find myself agreeing with Mono.

I've had some of my best fun in the sky in a Supercub.

Pitts2112

[Fokkerwokker]

Can anyone point me to the link(s) where you can see Cubs being landed in 'unusual' places?

FW

[BigAl's]

I hate to tell you all this now... but I have just been informed that the person in the cue ahead of me for the cub share has stopped umming and arrring and decided to take it. That was the last share :sad: :ugh:.

So, if anyone wants to post telling me how awful it is, feel free. ;)

Ho hum. Thanks to all anyhow, a great insight. Your posts have certainly opened my eyes to another dimension that is possible.

Regards to all,

Bigal

[J.A.F.O.]

Big Al

The first share I looked at buying was in an L4 (the one that Lister now has) but it was just a bit too far away for me to get any use out of it; the second share was in a Super Cub but there were reasons why I couldn't go for that one, too. Now I've found a J3 share very near to home and, for reasons which are too dull to go into, I can't afford it.

But I've flown a Cub or two, on my own and in company, front seat and back and one day I'll own one or part of one.

Perhaps this year I'll only manage half an hour on a summer evening with the door open but I'll enjoy what I get.

Never give up.

Out of interest does anyone know how the Husky compares? No, I know I can't afford that, either - I was just curious.

[StarbucksOne]

Hi,
Read you account frm 2001 - thanks. Can I ask...was it at White Waltham by any chance?

...and how many hours did your conversion take?

Cheers!

[ARPs]

Cubs are a blast!!!! Ive flowen the Super cub 150hp and also a 180hp club which I use for glider towing, it also is the "pregnant" cub with the two seats in the rear. Side by side.

The 180hp is a blast to fly. If I have not flowen it for a week or 2 I just have to get in one and go for a play. The pregnant cub also is more cumfy as the body is slightly wider and me being 6 ft 3 inches gives me a bit more room for my shoulders.

Nothing beats rolling down the runway in a good x-wind and holding it on the deck with the into wind wing right down near the ground keep you straight. A lot of fun

Hope you enjoy them as much!!

Arps

[FlyingForFun]

Read you account frm 2001 - thanks. Can I ask...was it at White Waltham by any chance?

...and how many hours did your conversion take?

I guess that question's directed at me?

Yes, it was at White Waltham. Took (from memory) about 4 or 5 hours to get signed off initially - but that was only very basic, just on grass, and 3-pointers only. I then went to America, and the school I rented the Super Cub from there wouldn't sign me off on it until I mastered wheel-landings on tarmac in 20kt x-winds - which took another 8 hours, but was some of the best flying instruction I've ever received!

FFF
-----------------

[StarbucksOne]

Cheers
So after sign-off WW will only permit solo hire to/from grass strips? - tarmac ldgs will require extra hrs?

[Wide-Body]

Starbuck

Like all things it depends on your abilities. Probably worth A tarmac trip dual just to see the differences. Like all things it depends on the person being trained. 8 hours just doing tarmac and cross winds sounds overkill to me. There is a huge amount of rubbish talked about tailwheel. Just do it, and have fun. lots of experienced instructors on the cub. At Waltham use JC, BH or a wider-body instructor!!

All the best

Wide

[RatherBeFlying]

Got my t/d checkout on tarmac.

One thing to watch out for in the winter is ice patches. The X-wind can start drifting you sideways and then one main grabs pavement while the other one is still on ice:uhoh:

All snow is OK, except you might not get the tailwheel unlocked when it's time to turn:\

[FlyingForFun]

8 hours just doing tarmac and cross winds sounds overkill to me
And wheel-landings in that time, too.

I guess it depends on the individual. For me - a pilot of average ability with around 60 hours (as I had then) - it was very necessary. I was really struggling with wheel-landings after 5 or 6 hours of working on them.

At the time, it didn't seem like overkill at all - and looking back on it now, my opinion hasn't changed. But I'd like to think that if my tail-wheel experience could be completely erased and I had to do it all again, but with nearly a couple of thousand hours behind me, it would take far less than 8 hours!

FFF
------------------

[Wide-Body]

FFF
I would like to think that in 13 hours a qualified pilot would be able to master, the rudiments. I know that students have different learning curves, but we are not talking about students here. starbuck is a qualified PPL and to be honest the tailwheel element is not a big deal. There is to much macho BS talked about it. We are not talking about mastering the beast ( I still can not after a few thousand hours tailwheel).

It does depend on the instructor and student continuation; but unless the student is of poor quality 13 hours would be a good target for a First solo. This is teaching wheelers and three pointers. That is from 0 hours!!!!

There is a lot of Bollox, written about tailwheel flying. The most important thing for any new student is to have confidence in what they are about to do. And mostly be prepared for serious fun.

Regards to all

Wide

[slim_slag]

Wide Body.

I know the school FFF is talking about reasonably well.

They will solo you from zero hour in a taildragger in about the same time as in a spamcan but obviously the wind has to be acceptable.

What they aim to do before they sign you off is get you to a level where they are happy for you to take their supercub anywhere within the range in the tanks. Within that distance is a > 12000 ft high mountain and fields with summer DAs close to 10,000 ft. Nasty winds are common.

They also make you have a check out with an instructor if you haven't flown the supercub in 21 days.

Other flying schools in the area will not touch a taildragger because if somebody bends one the insurance for the whole rental fleet will be pulled. It's in the States, not the UK, and they need to protect their business. However, they will also rent you an aerobatic biplane for competition, if they think you are up to it that is. Took 18 hours dual for me to get checked out for competition, maybe others could do it faster - if they could find somebody who would rent them the plane.

So a different country, and different flying from what a UK renter might want to be trained for. They are very, very good and know what they are doing.

[DubTrub]

If I could only fly one aircraft ever again it would be the SuperCub and
I find myself agreeing
Traitors!:(
They're expensive to buy, slow, use too much fuel, ugly, unsociable (tandem), have poor ground manners, ...
Need I go on? What's good about them?:sad:

[Piper19]

As my nickname suggests, I fly Piper PA19, which is a civilized version of the L-18C. Basically a PA18 with large windows and a 95HP Rolls Royce engine.
The handling on ground is the most tricky part. You'll never go really in a straight line on tarmac, grass is better, and the takeoff roll and landing roll is hard working. Also, rudder and brake pedals are reversed to the normal cessna types. Landings are a bit different feeling due to the bungees. Besides that, I find it very much flying like a c152. My Cub has no flaps, so sideslips are often used.
I like the 19 most because I soloed in it maybe.

[cirrus01]

Flew a 135 Hp Supercub after many hours in a Vagabond.......... I was slightly disappointed , as it seemed a bit "soggy " in comparison. That said I would still love to have one for personal use........;)

[DubTrub]

Hey, WR, the "ugly" comment was there to prevent the Aeronca fraternity from joining in!

So was the "slow" comment.

So was the "unsociable" comment (apart from the Chief, of course)

So was the "poor ground manners" comment (flat underside, you know).

:} ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

They're expensive, slow, use too much fuel, ugly, unsociable, have poor ground manners, ...
What's good about them?

Perhaps I just like them because we're so alike.

[DubTrub]

Actually WR I retract that.

Aeroncas are better then Cubs.

But they both still have a flat underside (Clark Y, don't you know).

Any news on my bungees, JAFO?:)

[flugholm]

Excellent posts, folks!

I can't say anything about the Super Cub, but I truly love the two Cubs that I fly out of Berlin-Tempelhof. (One is blue-silver and doesn't have a starter, the other is red and does. Both are somewhat older than I am...)

I think the wonderful idea of "summer flying" (window and/or door open, arm (or camera) hanging out etc). should also be given a mention.

And, an Always Remembered Instructor's Advise (ARIA) on how to get into this wonderful machine:
"Any method that results in you eventually sitting in it and not having damaged anything in the process, is a good one." :D

[Andy_RR]

DubTrub,

If the Cub/SuperCub isn't it, illuminate us with your recommendations, please?

A

[J.A.F.O.]

DubTrub

I do remember having a bungee based discussion with you but I can't remember how it ended. Either the Oldtimers disease is getting hold or I've eaten one steak too many and got that JCB.

[AfricanEagle]

My little piper story, posted elsewhere in the past.


On the outskirts of Rome, nestled between the highway that circles the eternal city and the international airport of Fiumicino, is a little grass airstrip, known only to a lucky few. 400 metres of unkept grass, bordered on one side by tall trees that help mitigate the wind. In one corner a once proud Fiat G91T jet trainer mounted on a swivel acts as a wind indicator and in the small hangar next to it a little Piper Cub shares protection with a tired Morane and a flashy new RV6.

The little Piper is well worn: her paintwork is flaked, the grease on her cable joints dark, her sticks polished by the many hands that have flown her. She works for a living, flying photographic missions and towing banners over the football stadium and along the beaches. But if you ask nicely she is available for a pleasure flight in the last rays of a sunlit afternoon of early autumn.

You climb aboard and settle down, taking in her smell. You touch all her switches, making yourself at home. You push the starter and she rumbles to life, and taxi slowly down the strip to the far end, checking her brakes and trying to feel her mood. She seems happy and content, but you know her, she might decide to be cheeky and start playing around. Checks completed, no wind, tail straight, one more look to be sure the local dog hasn't decided to take a nap in the middle of the runway and you push the throttle forward.

Tail up, keep her straight, and she decides to test you, darting to the left. Pedal, maybe too much, now she wants to look right, she's in a mischievous mood. You keep her straight and float into the already golden tainted sky. You climb slowly to 800ft. You don't want to go higher, the big jets are landing just six miles away. You turn downwind: on your right you can see Rome spread below, the sunlit dome of Saint Peters, the green of the parks, the modern districts crowding the ancient part of the city.

You fly content, the little Piper purring happily. In flight, as always, she is a darling. Turn base and final. Flaps down, speed okay, just a touch of power. You keep an eye on the two tall trees at the beginning of the runway, okay, passed them, stick back, little Piper, please be good. Bounce, bounce, bounce, she definitely wants to be cheeky today, left, right, keep her straight, full power, and off we go for another circuit. On final again, this time you'll get it right. But little Piper has other ideas. Bounce, bounce, bounce, she seems to be laughing aloud as you fight to keep her under control.

You go around again, and little Piper really enjoys herself, while in a cold sweat you try to keep up with her all over the runaway. Humbled and disgusted with yourself, you line up for your final landing. Over the trees, stick back, resigned for the final humiliation. And ... she touches soft as a feather, running straight and true, slowing down towards the hangar at the far end. You can feel her smiling, she has had her fun, but she didn't want to ruin your day. And when you push her back into the hangar, her engine ticking softly, you give her a pat, happy she has chosen to be your friend.

[trinnydriver]

StarBucks my experience relates to the Super Cub (150HP) and my observations may help you a bit. I did my PPL on the PA-18 in the late 80's and have since moved on to Spam Cams but I would still fly one given the chance.
As you will know by now keeping the plane straight on the ground is one of the first challenges. I found that applying a bit of pressure to both rudder pedals at the same time and then adding extra rudder input as required solved my own problems of keeping straight whilst taxying and landing/takeoff.
The climb rate was phenomenal and at some large airports we could have been at circuit height by the end of the runway - of course that needs to be avoided.
On one flight I opened the sliding side window and accidentally knocked the rear throttle control backwards. The subsequent loss of power at 2,000' was a bit of an addrenalin injection! It was resolved by 1,950'.
I am sure that with a bit of time you will enjoy the plane a great deal.

[evansb]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/img-friday-creek-004-mt-goat-and-su.jpg

[Bandit650]

evansB: Your post is outstanding (!)

[QDMQDMQDM]

That's another nice thing about Aeroncas (like Cubs, Taylorcrafts and Luscombes) - they've got historical interest, whereas Super Cubs are of the same era of the C172 and PA-28.

First Super Cub flew in 1949, long before the C172 or PA28 were even a twinkle.

As most people here know, I love my 150HP Super Cub so much I get tears in my eyes just thinking about it. If you get a chance, fly one.

QDM

[Lister Noble]

I'm confused!
I thought the Super Cub was 150 hp with electric start and flaps,and the Cub has 65 hp hand start,or 90hp electric start but no flaps on either model.
Is this wrong?
Lister:)

[J.A.F.O.]

Lister

I know someone will have the definitive answer but I've flown a PA-18-95 Super Cub, so that wasn't a 150 HP.

PS Just found a share closer to home than yours and now can't afford it. :{

[Andy_RR]

Isn't the C90 engine'd Supercub an L18-C, which is the military designation?

edited to say that the way I think of it, the Supercub has a cowled engine, whereas the Cub does not. I'm sure someone will show me the error of my ways...

[Lister Noble]

JAFO,well done and enjoy the aircraft,where is it based?
Lister:)

[J.A.F.O.]

No, Lister, I really can't afford it. It's a half share and, what with a few changes at the JAFO ranch, it's currently out of reach. :{

Ah well, such is life. One day. :)

[QDMQDMQDM]

Browsing the web a bit I've concluded that I didn't know anything about Super Cub history! It seems that even in 1949 it was offered with an electrical starter, flaps and a 115hp engine.

Hi WR,

Yes, and I think the standard 150hp version was first offered in 1951 or thereabouts.

edited to say that the way I think of it, the Supercub has a cowled engine, whereas the Cub does not. I'm sure someone will show me the error of my ways...

Superficially, yes, but in reality they are completely different aircraft apart from their common heritage and the aerofoil, which I understand dates back to the 20s.

I thought the Super Cub was 150 hp with electric start and flaps,and the Cub has 65 hp hand start,or 90hp electric start but no flaps on either model.
Is this wrong?

Yes, it is wrong.The Super Cubs start at 90HP with no electrical system or flaps and go up. Some cubs have 90HP engines, but they remain cubs.

Isn't the C90 engine'd Supercub an L18-C, which is the military designation?

The military 90HP Super Cub is the L18, except when it is the French civilianised version, when it becomes the PA19. The civilian 90HP Super Cub is the PA18-90.

They're all great to fly. Many people swear by the 90HP and it is very economical, but it lacks the grunt to get you out of anywhere really short and you really feel the difference above 5,000 feet.

Some say that Super Cubs don't need flaps and that that is another reason why the 90HP version is better, but that isn't true. The 90HP Super Cub is a lot lighter than the larger versions and it's true it doesn't really need flaps. The larger versions are much heavier and they do need flaps. They make an enormous difference and are very effective for both lift and drag. And slipping with full flap in the 150HP version is quite an experience.

QDM

[evansb]

Roots Sherpa, highly modified PA-18 Super Cub,
400-hp Lycoming IO-720, 2,200-lb useful load. Regular span version, (un-clipped wing) will hold more fuel, but useful load is not increased. This is not a computer generated image. It is a real aircraft. I hope I haven't caused a cessation of discourse on the truly classic PA-18 airframe.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/RootsSherpa.jpg

[ex jump pilot]

Otherwise a fairly conventional tailwheel ... however, I think the fellow who coined the phrase "the most fun you can have with your clothes on" certainly was talking about SuperCubs ...
Let's dispose of this one first. I'd suggest, from experience, that a night sky dive trumps flying a Super Cub (and yes, I have sky-dived out of a Super Cub but that was in daylight...).
Now, where were we. Oh yes. My first tail wheel flying was in a 135HP ex Dutch military Super Cub - the second was was an hour later in a Terrior (now that's what I call "character building"). Took to it very well in the end. I'd got about 18 hours P1 by then (C152) and 50 hrs dual.
Don't recall it being hard to fly but... what was different was the tail wheel ethos.
Glide approaches (no throttle against brakes as it was explained to me), low flying, gentle opening and closing the throttle, watch out for the wind turning the 'plane on the ground, holding off on landing in the three point attitude....
One thing was explained to me (it worked for two cases). Watch where things are pointing as that tells you which foot to press on the rudder.
1) The turn and bank has a pointer which points to the foot you press on the rudder to keep it in balance
2) Whichever side of the nose the propeller goes tells you which foot to press when taking off.
Other than that, Super Cubs are great fun. Haven't flown one for years now (did fly one of floats) - got sidetracked by skids rather than tail wheels and then moved onto a Cub which is only a cycle ride away.

[QDMQDMQDM]

This is what it's like to fly:

Yesterday, nice day, very wet, about 10 knots southwesterly, no-one else flying -- too muddy, but we don't care.
Haul the machine out, mud everywhere, stick the dog in the back and climb in.
Fly from the strip to home, about 10 minutes, land in one of the many fields near the house which I use, about 15% gradient, 300 yards, out of wind and across the slope.
Have a cup of tea.
Take off 11.30 with the missus, 12.10 at Bolt Head, 60 miles away. (http://www.devonstrut.co.uk/pages/airfields/bolthead.htm). Fence is acros the strip, reducing it to 400m -- irrelevant to us. Checked out River Dart on the way and circled around to watch crazy canoeists.
Walk down the hill into Salcombe for lunch. Potter about.
Back to the strip after lunch.
Low level around the coast then up to Dartmoor, Tavistock, Bude, North along coast, stop in friend's field by the coast for a pee and a breather, creating two large furrows in the process and spumes of mud over the wings and fuselage (bugger!), then Hartland and to Saunton, check out Hercules doing beach landings, open the door and take some nice pics, back along the Torridge estuary lowish level, Eggesford at 4pm and at school parents evening for 5pm.

I won't say there's nothing else you can do this in, but it sure is fun and stress-free in a Super Cub. Didn't have to talk to anybody either.

QDM

[J.A.F.O.]

QDM

I try never to be envious of others and to wish them all the best in all that they can do but you're pushing my limits there. Sounds terrific, though. Good on ya.

:ok: :{ :ok: :{ :ok: :{ :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

I try never to be envious of others and to wish them all the best in all that they can do but you're pushing my limits there. Sounds terrific, though. Good on ya.
Thanks. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Thanks. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.

Yah yah

Anyway, when are you going to get rid of that rag and tube thing and get a proper bush machine?

:}

[Commanche 260]

Best aircraft. Very reliable,lots of power, lightweight,short take-off and landing. Great visibility below you.
I got a run up in one for fifteen minutes and i could honestly say it was one the best flights i had. Was grinning from ear to ear for the next week or so.

Commanche 260

[QDMQDMQDM]

Anyway, when are you going to get rid of that rag and tube thing and get a proper bush machine?

You wound me, FD. I shall have to go to the airfield tomorrow to stroke my machine and tell her I love her.

[IFMU]

Both glider clubs I've been in have a super cub for tow duty. Both clubs also have 1 or two pawnees, which tow a lot better than a 150/160 hp cub. But get the glider off the back of the super cub, it's a ball to fly. Climbs great, handles nice, lands short. Not terribly fast. I probably have 60 hours in type.

-- IFMU

[micromalc]

I've been flying a super-cub for the last few years plus a couple of aerobatic
planes. Yet, whenever I climb back into the super cub its like coming home.
They are a joy to fly and great fun if you like popping in and out of short farm strips.Enjoy.:)

[plucka]

I have only flown the 150horse super cub. A couple of things to remember with the cub.

One of the reasons it is a great strip machine is that its best ANGLE of climb configuration is 45kts and FULL flap. The exact approach profile, so if you get a little low or change your mind, open the throttle and you are at best angle of climb.

Another thing to remember is if you are taking passengers, remove the rear stick. I know of two Piper Cub crashes where the uneducated passenger put something in the pocket located behind the pilots seat which prevented the pilot getting full foward stick, which is required in a go around situation.

Another thing to remember which probabley wont be an issue for many, is that in extreme turbulance I have known of a couple of pilots that have been knocked unconsious due to their head hitting the tube above. So shoulder straps tight and head down.

The last thing I would like to mention is that if you have done all you Cub flying in a Cub with drum brakes and the oppurtunity presents itself to fly one with disc brakes (a modification) be very very cautious as they work alot better than the original drums.

All that said dont let it put you off, if there was only one aircraft I could fly it would be the Supercub.

[QDMQDMQDM]

One of the reasons it is a great strip machine is that its best ANGLE of climb configuration is 45kts and FULL flap. The exact approach profile, so if you get a little low or change your mind, open the throttle and you are at best angle of climb.


The consensus among the experts is that an engine failure at best angle in a SC is not survivable at low level. This is a manoeuvre to be used only in an extreme emergency and never as a routine.

[Contacttower]

45kts and FULL flap


Is that knots or mph? Reason I ask is that a lot of Cubs are in mph. I usually just climb at 70mph with no flap...never been in a situation where anything more is needed.

[pheeel]

while all these supercub fanatics are on here thought I'd repost a question I posted a couple of years back, maybe things have changed...:

- anyone know of any (super/)cubs for hire in Yorkshire? Love the things, got about 15hrs on them but hope to get more! pretty hard to find any though - know there is one at sutton bank and pock, but any other ones avail to take away?

cheers for any info - PM me if you like (so not to hijack the thread!) thanks!:}

[QDMQDMQDM]

Best angle is 45mph and full flap. The attitude is extreme.
Best rate is usually around 65mph and no flap.

[micromalc]

there is a lovely little super cub for hire at the tiger club in headcorn kent
come down for the weekend and enjoy

[Contacttower]

Best rate is usually around 65mph and full flap.


QDM do you usually use flap for take-off? I don't usually but for a short field take off I would.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I find it likes to take off with half flap, which I usually retract as the speed comes up very shortly after take-off. It seems to fly much more easily than with a no flap take-off.

For a short field take off, I start with half flap, full power against the brakes, full stick back, let go the brakes, count 1,2,3, then stick fully forward to raise the tail, then very shortly after pull full flap. When you pull full flap it tends to pop off the ground and you're airborne with very little airspeed in ground effect and you can gradually bleed off flap and gain speed and climb away. This is a fairly standard short field technique, but some people start with full flap, I understand. If you pull full flap too early, it will pop off and then sink back to bounce once on the mainwheels, so there is a bit of an art to it.

You should check out www.supercub.org to see what the experts do.

[AfricanEagle]

Close up
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data//517/medium/primopiano.jpg
Natural Cub surroundings
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data//500/medium/07.jpg
Summer cubbing
http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data//500/medium/08.jpg

[javelin]

Super Cub.........................

Why not a Citabria ?

Better looking, better performance, better interior room, better all round :E

Wanna buy one - PM me :ok:

[cub_islandmonkey]

Guys, take a look at supercub.org for much more information on Super Cubs. I post on this site as islandmonkey. I have a German registered 150hp Super Cub which I bought eighteen months ago. Its slow, its juicey but I would not sell it as it brings a smile that lasts well into the evening to your face when make that last landing of the day.

Take Care

Tony

[plucka]

Dear Javelin,

Unfortunately you are very much mistaken when you say a citabria is better looking than a cub, and better performer....?:=

I get it, this is a wind up.

[javelin]

Dear plucka,

No - they have more room, better viz, as good perf with flaps (7GCBC) and aerobatic - ish.

Undercarriage a touch springy but other than that just all round better :E

Oh, the struts don't need replacing but then - the spars do from time to time :sad:

[Contacttower]

Does anyone know where I might find a Cub near Hampshire/Wiltshire? my club's one is out for a while.