contracts

[gibr monkey]

Hi ya folks,

Just wanted to know if you where offered employment for non multi -pilot ops ( king air )would except a 3 month notice period to leave the company. seems very long time to give notice !!!

Any views on it

[Avadoo]

King Air drivers seem to be quite sought after at the moment. Lots have been
mopped up by the heavy metal operators, at very short notice. This leaves the smaller corporate operators short as they cant always type-rate quickly or ultimately, service their contracts properly !
So I'm not surprised to hear of three month notice periods, to be fair they are trying to offer a reliable service alongside very stiff competition.
Good luck.

[Superpilot]

No employer can enforce a notice period. They can take you to court over the matter but then the judge would have to hear your reasons and will consider them in light of everything. For example, you couldn't afford the salary and were seriously in debt so you jacked the job in in pursuit of one that pays more (a fact of life). Besides, if the operator takes you to court it's proof they have more time and money to waste than it seems.

[gibr monkey]

thanks for the replies ,
However would future airlines not take you because of this 3 months notice period.... keeps me thinking if I could be putting myself in a difficult situation.

[GusHoneybun]

3 months notice period is pretty much standard throughout the industry. Airline recruitment know this and try and recruit over 3 months in advance to needing crew.
It's seems to be only the smaller TP companys that call you thursday, interview friday and start type rating on monday.

[Avadoo]

Pilot recruitment does seem to be 'a very small world' so do be careful who you choose to upset, be very sure you can justify your reasonable actions.
It is relatively straightforward for a smaller business (eg corporate!!) to demonstrate significant losses to a judge and not only be successful in withholding any outstanding salary (week or month in hand) but also recover additional, mitigated expenses as a result of a broken contract.
Previously as an employer, in another industry, I have done this more than once. Part of the reason being, a smaller business on marginal profits with fewer staff cannot absorb staff losses at short notice, they dont have the resources. This can and does sometimes lead to loss of custom with resulting negative effects to the business and possible further job losses to other innocent members of staff.
Also, I'm sure that being 'unable to comment other than confirming dates of employment' is not what a prospective new employer wants to hear when telephoning / writing for a reference !!!

[Phil Brockwell]

Superpilot,

Bear in mind people may act on your "facts" that an operator cannot enforce a notice period and would be unlikely to go to court. I hope that you are qualified to comment because I am told as an employer by the specialist HR company that we retain to deal with all things personnel based that it is a simple process to recoup costs associated with filling the position with contract staff (and their training) or loss of earnings.

IMHO 3 months is the industry norm and you should renegotiate this term as part of your employment contract / bond etc if you are not willing to be legally bound by your contract.

Albeit that it is pretty tricky to enforce specific performance of a notice period, it is easy to recoup from the employee the costs associated with filling the position and or loss of earnings.

Phil

[haughtney1]

Albeit that it is pretty tricky to enforce specific performance of a notice period, it is easy to recoup from the employee the costs associated with filling the position and or loss of earnings.

Phil, I hear what you are saying......the european human rights act would disagree (which I've seen overides UK law) as the enforcement of an exyended notice period is considered a breach of ones human rights, if I recall it is in reference to restricting someones freedom of employment etc (I'm not a lawyer, but my friend in a different industry fought a case sucessfully)
I'm sure Flying Lawyer can clarify, but I believe a notice period beyond 1 pay cycle is viewed as a rights breach:eek:

[skysoarer]

In my current (almost ex) employment the senior staff must give 3 months notice and I've seen this before. It's in the contract. The reason being that, for senior staff, it takes time to find a suitable replacement. Fair enough.

When our current Ops manager resigned I was approached to replace them, however I declined to keep my flexibility to be able to accept a flying position. I would have had to give 3 months notice.

Can't stand office politics anyway. Aviation is far more interesting than whining travel agencies and a dodgy webserver.

Sky

[Phil Brockwell]

The point of law is that it has to be "reasonable" I think.

Interestingly My Sister is Solicitor (althaugh not a employment specialist so declined to comment) and she is on 3 months notice. Suspect that is OK then?

Phil

[Phil Brockwell]

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/monster/empf16.html

Phil

[Superpilot]

My point in saying the above is that there are clear cut circumstances in which you may not be able to fulfill a contract and in those circumstances you stand a good chance of not being sued. No I certainly am not qualified to say any of the above, but I know what I would do.

[gibr monkey]

cheers guys,

I was worried if I took the job I would be stuck but if other carriers do 3 months notice they would understand, ...

AND I have the added complication of scottish law as well !!!??? which is another issue I guess.

[Vortex Thing]

I am qualified to talk and hence shall :) Most of what Phil B and Haught said though contradictory was true.
The facts. Is 3 months enforceable YES it is. Is it a breach of human rights legislation well that is a matter for a tribunal to decide. There is case law both ways and hence no ruling precendent.
The argument about pay periods is pretty much the most correct. i.e. if paid weekly or monthly then that notice period follows but the important point to remember is that you are dealing with two completely different sets of law.:ugh:
The first is employment law which follows the paid weekly or monthly principle. This is quite clear.:uhoh:

However the second law is contract law. Though employment law says that this is the way it is done by signing an employment contract to the contrary you waive your rights to that notice period by accepting the employment Ts&Cs.

Contract law is complicated i.e a contract is not condsidered binding if to carry it out would mean breaking the law. i.e. If you sign a contract saying you will murder someone and don't you cannot be sued for breach of contract as the contract was not considered legally binding, etc.

If on the other hand you sign a contract as a "specialist" because you are hard to replace it is reasonable that 3 months is a suitable notice period.
Hence my wife and almost every accountant, lawyer and even teacher that I know are on 3 months or more notice periods and I have seen a few of them try to go to tribunal when they wished to move on.

IF you are found to have breached the contract and the company can demonstrate a loss. THEN YOU ARE LIABLE i.e you have to pay the cost of a contractor to replace yourself, be trained to the standard you are AND mitigate any loss as a result of your breaching the contract.

So if you work for PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP (who give all fee earning staff a 3 month notice period as standard on entry (qualified staff that is) and leave early, you, as an employee have a reasonable case that the £1.8 Bn turnover firm will not suffer huge loss if you leave and can't lets say take part in a ten man audit team in an office of 400 people.

If on the other hand you work for Mrs. Miggins and Co accountants LLP who employ 3 staff and you leave after a month claiming employment law as your saviour you will probably get taken to the cleaners.

In sum if you are easily replaceable then not a problem but as you require a specific type rating, then company CRM, SEP and security training prior to coming on line I would argue that you would have almost not case at all if the employer decided to pursue you to tribunal or court.

Lastly but not leastly Avadoo makes a very important point it doesn't matter if you are legally liable as much as the fact that aviation is a small world you would be very badly placed to take the legal high ground as you never know when you will encounter the ops mgr, chief pilot, etc again it is however safe to say that if they are senior to you in this role the chances are they always will be.

If someone offers u a job take it and worry about the next step when it comes. This is not an interview rich environment much less and offer rich one so if u have nothing better to take then IMHO I'd just sign on the dotted line and if Jennifer Anniston decides she wants you to fly her and her entourage around in her BBJ whilst doubling as her massuer then negotiate some thing with your employer and help find and cross train a replacement. Viele Gluck