Career Cycles In Australia

[Jnr380]

Hi guys & gals

Im new to this forum, and at the moment im currently in the last stages of obtaining my CPL(A).

After spending a long time reading on this forum about people wanting to work in aviation and how the market is over-flooded by pilots etc.... its (in my opinion and my life experiences) all part of a cycle that every career goes through.

ONE EXAMPLE:
ATM i work in the security industry in Australia, and in the last 7 years i have been working it has changed dramatically. When i first started (2000) i was getting an average wage of $AUD26,000 when the average state wage was about $AUD35,000.

At a point about (2002 - 2004/5) Australia had a huge influx of international students (IS) that got their security licences to support their studies at uni. And the industry just went down hill from there. Employers were only hiring IS as they were cheaper. (Say an Australian Citizen would ask for $AUD14 p/h while an IS is willing to work for $AUD11 p/h).

Now this went on for two or so years and large employers kept loosing contracts cause they supply them with cheap labour that are not dedicated to their work, failed to show intiative or leadership and can barely communicate effectively.

What i realised that security guard (patrols, static guard, corp buildings etc...) work was going downhill and the crowd controlling side (ie bouncer, night club guard etc...) was the place where the big dollars are. Night clubs were so desperate for proper guards they were offering $20p/h as opposed to $12-$14 p/h.

One thing i realised is that now im with my 4th Full - Time security company (and also about my 4th Casual Security job) and moving around did help alot as it exposed me to new experiences in the industry and it got the point where i was that much employable that my current job is paying $AUD45,000 which i must admit is excellent (and now becoming the norm pay) for security.

My lesson in life which i will carry to my aviation career is to move around the industry to get exposure to different experiences, and if it means sacrificing a couple of $000's a year then let it be, that exposure offered to me will benefit me in the long run.

And i seriously believe that in the aviation industry in Australia will recover from the slums thats its currently in and will thrive (as Australia is like 20 years behind the rest of the world). These are all cycles in each career. (IT is another example)

And if you think your too old for working or start looking for work in Aviation just take a look around Australia, the average age of a Police recruit is 35 years old. Compared to say 1975 where the average recruit was about 19 years old.

Companies in every industry are starting to look at people in their 30's due to their life/work experiences . Rather than getting new grads that have no idea what it is like to work for a professional company and have very little life experience. (Apart from getting drunk 3 times a week at the uni pub)

[Piltdown Man]

From Pom's perspective (and having got an Aussie CPL/CIR/Multi etc. a few years ago) you only have one cycle in Oz. None! I know it's a bit harsh, but because the price of learning to fly is so cheap by comparison to national earnings (you buggers work hard) you will always have a glut of pilots. That is why we have a plague of them over here (well they keep telling us that they are Australians but they appear to have British passports!). There are probably more Aussie CPL holders than UK CPL/ATPL holders yet a population of just over 20M is not enough to allow every licence holder to earn a crust flying. The only part of aviation to expand beyond all reasonable measure is Aviation Prevention aka. Security - where you come from!

[Jnr380]

PM,

From what i heard there is a shortage of charter pilots in Australia, all SE asian airlines are poaching them (I think OZ pilot training is regarded as the best in the world). Our glut in the industry is due to too many people with instructor rating that need work. I for one refuse to go down that path and will start my MECIR. I know heading north (top end of OZ) and out west (WA) there a heaps of charter positions out there and give it 3 yrs and that will be full but then there will be a shortage of instructors. Thats the way the industry is, there will always be one section that have a shortage.

[neville_nobody]

380, there is heaps of charter work if you have 2000hours and 500 ME command. But you are not (and never have) going to get a walk up IFR twin charter job with 200 hours and 20 ME. Most of the remote twin charter work is for mining or government so the minimum experience requirements would be somewhere near what European 737 captains have !! :} :} :ugh:

If you have the passport then go to Europe it's alot easier to get good jobs over there than it ever will be over here. How many people in Australia with 200 hours get a job in a jet??

[404 Titan]

Jnr380
Mate, I don’t want to sound rude but that sounds like the BS that is fed to prospective student pilots by a lot of flying schools in Australia. I have been in this industry for 21 years and there has never been and never will be a shortage of inexperienced CPL(A)’s around. That first job has and will always be a slog to get. The only thing that changes is the supply and demand of experience pilots i.e. 2000+ hrs total and 500+ hrs multi that a large number of charter companies and regional airlines require for contractual reasons. The reality in Australia is that for every five CPL(A)’s that are produced, four will never get a job. That is the unfortunate reality of this industry and one the flying schools will never tell you because it isn’t in their interest to do so.

[pilotads]

"Now this went on for two or so years and large employers kept loosing contracts cause they supply them with cheap labour that are not dedicated to their work, failed to show intiative or leadership and can barely communicate effectively."
Thats all well and good but you see those "IS" are doing security so they can get there CPL's and when they start going for jobs they actually want, then they become dedicated, show intiative and leadership and communicate very effectively, so employers and contractors don't stop using them
There is no shortage of charter pilots just a shortage of "mid range" experience requirements between "low time jobs" and airline. Look on the AFPA website and see how many instructors are needed, those jobs came up from all the instructors getting sick of flying 1000's of hours in 152s trying to get the experience for charter
I think there right, your flying school has been feeding you a little dribble. There are jobs out there for the lucky and persistent ones. Which are usualy the ones that do there research. You might get lucky at the top end this year otherwise its as you said getting experience and your name out there not to mention a good holiday

And for those picky guys in pprune nowa days I don't care about spelling or gramma just trying to have my say and move one as quick as possible

[lemel]

jnr380,
I also do think alot of what you are saying is what I heard when I was at a flying school doing my training.
Here is a bit of a reality check for you. It isnt ment to be harsh, just the truth. There is a shortage of instructors. So much so that schools that train cadets have offered to pay for an instructor rating for a mate of mine (china southern) & the cfi at the flying school I did my training at rang me after I had my cpl for a year and flying for a charter company asking me if i wanted to do an instructor rating with guarantee of a job at the completion (this is unheard of). the reason for the shortage is instructors get their hours and their grade 2 and bugger of to get a charter job so that they can eventually get their twin time up.
As far as charter jobs go in the top end...
Yes there are jobs around, but not as many as you think or have been told. It really comes down to knowing someone or making yourself known. The rest is good timing i.e. right place right time. For the record, I do not believe that getting your second job is so easy. It is still hard and you still have to put up with c**p!
Having said all this, if you really do want to pursue a charter job just hang in there and wait it out. An ex chief pilot once told me that if a guy didnt get a start at the begining of the dry and hung around town for the year, then he would most likely be offered a position at the start of the next dry.
If I had my time again i would do an instructor rating and then go to charter. It may take you a couple of years more to get the hours you need, but once you do you are more emplyable as you can move into check and training in the bigger jobs.
good luch
LeMeL:cool:

[GUARD]

Jnr380, just go and get your instructor rating and get some hours under your belt while you learn something about your craft because you wouldn't be the first bloke to think you're ready for charter with 200 hours and a CIR.

Like everyone else, I'm not trying to be rude but you do sound a little self-deluded about the state of the industry.

Good luck though with your decision.

GUARD:ok:

[maxgrad]

When I did the instructing thingy and was asked by bright eyed starters or parents of same I would say...
Flying is fantastic, THE INDUSTRY SUCKS!

It still does.

[tinpis]

Whats the lowest time/age airline skipper in OZ right now?

Not regionals

[tinpis]

Good one :ok: ....any improvement on Captin Munter?

[Aussie]

Your doing well MUNT!

Keep it up!

[das Uber Soldat]

what are peoples thoughts on a 700 hour mostly instructional pilot with a CIR going up north? worth a shot or still wasting their time?

[maxgrad]

Depends on attitude, skill level, enthusiasm and timing to mention a few.
Don't exprct to step into a twin straight away.

[the wizard of auz]

Apply to Golden eagle aviation. Hedland and Derby. I think you will get a look in if your quick as they are scratching for staff at the moment.

[neville_nobody]

But you will still have to meet the minimums. Unless everything has changed you ain't going to get a RPT twin gig with 200 hours. By the time you do you won't want to move to Port Hedland or Derby to fly busted arse piston twins in 50 degree heat!

[Jedi]

I would seriously think twice about working for the company mentioned above...
Some reasons:
1. although quick progression, you will be bonded for ~$3000 for a 'bongo' :eek: endorsement over 12 months.
2. if your not a christian you will become the new scapegoat:uhoh:
3. If you want to go for an interview with an airline you wont be given time off, and have to turn up at the office for a 3 hour duty day of paper stacking.:ooh:
4. If you do manage to get an interview with another company you will recieve a 'bad' reference when it comes to reference checking time (even though the official policy is "we dont give references"). :suspect:
5. If you manage to get around the reference thingy, the owner will make a phone call to the CEO of your new company and either 'bag' you, or lie and tell him that you have just been fired and not to employ you.:\
6. If you get through all of the above and you havent had you holiday pay withheld over 1 month remaining of an illegal bond (that had been paid):{ , then owner will ring operations of your new job and tell them under NO circumstances are you to take one step inside their hanger... (even if that is where your new office is located). :mad:
So go see that CP about that job, you might be able to get a word in when he stops crying.:ugh:
But then again this is a rumour network.:E :ouch: :suspect:

[rmcdonal]

Things are really that bad? If an ex-employer gives you a bad reference and you find out that it was that reference that lost you the job then you can sue. (one of those tad bits of information I picked up while working in the office....not that I would ever do it, or get myself into a position where the boss would do that to me). Any job that doesn't expect some sort of turn over (especially twin drivers) is living in a dream world, the only guys I know who stay in twin piston jobs have families and don't want to leave (not saying twin piston is bad, only most pilots are after something bigger).
I am a little skeptical that an employer would give a bad reference just to stop you moving on though....


312hrs to a 737? If you where standing in front of me I would punch you in the face. :} :E :eek:

[bushy]

Must be military or microsoft. All others have to have an ATPL, and you don't get them at 18 with 300 odd hours..

[slice]

I can confirm at least some of the points made by JEDI when you take a Golden Shower. The Principles don't seem understand why people don't want to live in Port Hedland or Derby for the rest of their lives - or even for the rest of the year!:E

[2p!ssed2drive]

If an ex-employer gives you a bad reference and you find out that it was that reference that lost you the job then you can sue.

how can you fully prove that it was the reference that lost you the job?

[rmcdonal]

I never said I had all the answers, but if some how you where to find out, then that would be defamation, even if it is true :rolleyes:

[aceh]

the best advice I got was from an Aussie Capt a while ago back in the early 90s flying in SQ on A310..was "Pesevere"! this Capt use to fly in New Guinea.
his surname starts with "C".

My personal advice is GET OUT FROM YOUR COMFORT ZONE! NO PAIN! NO GAIN! Also help your fellow mate in everyway..what goes around comes around!

[glekichi]

if some how you where to find out, then that would be defamation
What about if you say someone is a :mad:wit, but in doing so you are actually talking them up? :eek:

[scramjet]

Lets face it if you are any good and you want it bad enough you will get where you will want to go. The good ones get through in the end. Sure sometimes you shake you head in amazement at some people who have got through the system and sometimes good people get a set back here and there.

But the good ones always get there in the end.:)

[Howard Hughes]

But the good ones always get there in the end.
Very, very, true! Persistence is the key...:ok: