British RAF crash in Detroit, Michigan in the '50s...

[AlexisDetroit]

There was an airshow crash in Detroit circa 1957 but I can't remember the details. I believe it was a De Havilland delta wing type aircraft. I've done several searches for said incident without coming up with any info.

Over the years pieces of the plane have been found in residential yards.

Anyone know about this incident?

[Gainesy]

Avro Vulcan B.1, October24, 1958, From RAF Waddington, UK en-route to Lincoln AFB, Nebraska. Total electrical failure over Dresden 60nm NE of Detroit, tried to divert to Kellog Field on standby (battery) power but battery, which should have given power for 20min, was flat after 3min. Of six on board, only the co-pilot ejected, but he drowned in Lake St Clair (not wearing lifejacket). Aircraft went in at 60-70 degree dive into residential area of Detroit.
Details from V-Force by Andrew Brookes.
Don't know if any ground casualties, ISTR it impacted a waste tipping site.

[RETDPI]

IIRC correctly wasn't this the Vulcan that went in at very high speed vertically , making a crater in the ground outside Chicago?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

RETDPI

Are you thinking of XL390 that piled in 12 august 1978? Thread is; http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=125259

[RETDPI]

It was before my time in the service but IIRC a V -Bomber went in as described near Chicago. I could well be wrong in assuming it was a Vulcan.
I'm sure somebody from that era will soon fill us in.

[virgo]

I'm not sure if there was more than one Vulcan crash in N America, but certainly a Air Electronics Officer named Jamie Hamilton was killed in a Vulcan crash in the USA.
It was the same Jamie Hamilton who escaped unhurt when the 120 squadron Shackleton crashed in flames and burnt out in Scotland in 1962.
Second time unlucky............

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Lads; the MK 1 referred to in Posts 1 and 2 seems to be XA908. The other loss was a MK 2, XL390 and referred to at Post 4 and, I believe, 3. I'm not intimate with N American geography but I'm sure Detroit and Chicago are quite far apart.

If you follow the link in Post 4, you will probably find all the Vulcan information you could want.

[Iron City]

The loss of Avro Vulcan B1 XA908 in October 1958 near Detroit MI should have a National Transportation Safety Board report. Reports for that time period are not available on line generally but have to be searched out at the NTSB reading room. How intersted is Alexisdetroit?

[AlexisDetroit]

...with 10 being the most interested I would say a 8 or 9.

[KeMac]

Very sad indeed. I had a book on the vulcan which stated that he drowned not because he was not wearing a lifejacket but because he could not swim which struck me as odd particularly as he served on a maritime aircraft. I don't know what RAF entry requirements were in the 50s and 60s but I would have that that the abilty to swim would have been necessary for maritime aircraft.

[RETDPI]

Ref. my earlier posts .
Gainesy has correctly identified the incident I was thinking of (from recall of crew bar chat of many years ago). I noted his post later.
Detroit it most certainly was. Apologies for any confusion possibly caused .

[Iron City]

Okay AlexisDetroit. Nothing difficult is ever easy, I guess. NTSB investigates all aircraft accidents in the U.S. that are not military on military/public property. Except they didn't exist until 1964. Before that the Civil Aeronautics Board did accident investigation. Except they were disestablished in 1985 or so. They sent their records to NTSB. Had a nice phonecon with the NTSB records people and they can not find anything in their holdings.

CAB records also went to the national archives and I think I have identified and found the right records class (CAB Office of General Counsel -accident investigations 1952-1969). Inquiry off to national archives and we'll see what happens.

[Hotwired]

I live in the area of the crash you are questioning in 1958.
Look at this website and scroll half way down the page for pictures and talk of the crash.

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/36342.html

[AlexisDetroit]

I was nine years old at the time of the RAF crash on the eastside but only remember folks talking about it. I am a retired Detroit firefighter and will pass on the photos of the crash to some still on the DFD.

About the time of the 1958 RAF crash in Detroit there was a freighter collision off of Harsens Island in the St. Clair River, possibly in the bend in the river near where the Idle Hour Hotel was. Said bend was replaced but the seaway channel for shipping. I remember going out on the Russell Island ferry with my father to see the sunk freighter with only its two superstructures being above the water. Do you know of said ship sinking and do you have access to any photos of it?

[PaperTiger]

Don't know if any ground casualties, ISTR it impacted a waste tipping site.No fatalities on the ground, considerable damage though:"OCT. 24, 1958: A British Royal Air Force bomber jet -- trailing smoke and flame and its pilot calling out "mayday" -- crashed on Ashland Avenue near the Detroit River on the city's far east side. All six crew members were killed. Three homes were destroyed and about 40 others were damaged. Wreckage was scattered into nearby Grosse Pointe. No one on the ground was killed; two women were treated for burns.
The four-engine delta-winged plane was on a training mission, flying from Lincolnshire, England, to Lincoln, Neb. Crippled, it dived from 45,000 feet, passing over hospitals and schools on its path to the ground. The impact was so hard that searchers dug 70 feet in an unsuccessful effort to find the plane's cockpit. The largest piece of wreckage found was a 6-foot section of wing that landed on a porch."

(Note obligatory "hospitals and schools" :rolleyes: )

[AlexisDetroit]

I wonder if the pilots were trying for the river that is less than a half miles away from the impact area. Did that plane have a history of trouble like the BOAC airliner of the 1950s. The make and model of the BOAC plane slips me.

[Gainesy]

I think you mean the very early De Havilland Comet airliners, which had structural failures because of metal fatigue. The Vulcan was built by the Avro company, was entirely different and did not have any such problems.

[240 Gardner]

KeMac, not sure about the 1950s, but it seems not to have been an issue in the 1940s: my father was a Sunderland pilot who couldn't swim a stroke!

[Hotwired]

Here is a list of newspapers that had an article related to it.

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=raf+detroit+british+jet+crash&scoring=t&um=1&sa=N&sugg=d&as_ldate=10/1958&as_hdate=10/1958&lnav=dt

[ckurshil]

AlexisDetroit
For several years now, I've tried to find info on this crash. I was almost 5 years old on Oct 24, 1958 when the aircraft nearly crashed into our house. I lived at 477 Ashland Ave, when the aircraft flew just over us and crashed down the street. I still hear the roar of the engines and the house shaking as if in an earthquake. I would appreciate if you could email the photos you spoke of, if you still have them. I can't find any newspaper articles other than calling the Detroit News archives desk many years ago with no luck. I've recently done a Google Earth search to see the area, and saw my old Guyton Elementary school.

I have been haunted by this memory for years, and for many years could not stay indoors when a low flying aircraft passed overhead. Funny thing is, I went into the aviation field in 1974.
Thanks in advance for any info
Ckurshil

[AlexisDetroit]

I was eight years old at the time of RAF crash and have no member of it as lived about five miles away near Harper (now I-94) and Moross. Did you go to Detroit Southeastern High? What line of aviation are you in today?

[ckurshil]

We moved away from Detroit to Cincinnati in the summer of 1961, I attended Guyton Elementary a few blocks away. I started first in airport operations, then a Texas regional airline, now in corporate aviation.

[Hotwired]

I finally found a newspaper article:

http://digitize.gp.lib.mi.us/digitize/newspapers/gpnews/1955-59/58/1958-10-30.pdf

[Hotwired]

A nice 6 page article was in the July 08 Hour Detroit magizine.
I have a PDF copy of the article and if you PM me your email address I can send you a copy if interested.

[Cypherus]

A very interesting newpaper article, anyway, if you GE the area you can still see the location of the former property that the Vulcan crashed onto, still undeveloped after all this time.

[TP16882]

There was an airshow crash in Detroit circa 1957 but I can't remember the details. I believe it was a De Havilland delta wing type aircraft. I've done several searches for said incident without coming up with any info.

Over the years pieces of the plane have been found in residential yards.

Anyone know about this incident?
I was 5 years old and lived on Lakewood street in Detroit which was 1 block from the crash. The plane crashed on Harsens Island, which is actually a street and a small piece of land that juts out in the water off Lake St.Clair (which is why the street is an island). Being 5 years old, I remember the crash, I was in my living room when the plane crashed, it was in the daytime either late morning or afternoon, I don't know, but the Earth shook upon impact and the sound was as a bomb exploding! Following impact, I remember sirens from fire trucks, ambulances, police etc., racing past my house. I didn't see them, but remember hearing all the sounds. My mother quickly grabbed me in a panic (not knowing what was happening) and took me to one of the bedrooms with my older sisters until she could determine what happened. Sadly, all on board were killed and the one drowned in Lake St. Clair. I don't believe anyone died on the ground, perhaps due to mid-day and people were at work.

[Cornish Jack]

Re. the swimming ability query, it was not a requirement in the 60s ... even 'Willy the winch', the most active winchman on the valley S&R flight, could not swim. !

[Shackman]

It was certainly a requirement by '66. I wasn't a particularly strong swimmer at the start of basic training at AOTS South Cerney, but (eventually/just) made the grade and received my 'X' certificate which was a requirement to graduate and move on to FTS.