BA Pilots and Cabin Crew

[apaddyinuk]

Sorry for making a new thread here but I feel it deserves one. (Mods, I understand if you want to move it but can you keep it up here for a few hours at least...cheers!)
I am a very VERY pro flight deck cabin crew member. I have nothing but respect for flight crew, my father is one and I once upon a time wished to be one myself.
HOWEVER, It has come to my attention that there are a number of you out there bullying cabin crew over the current industrial situation. In fact I know of several incidents whereby crew have been reduced to tears by arrogant abusive attitudes from beyond the flight deck door.
This is a blatant misuse of your authority. Regardless of your opinions towards the unions and crew in general nothing gives you the right to bully in the work place which is exactly what you are doing. BASSA are now aware of this and encouraging crew to take the names and staff numbers of flight crew (and indeed anyone in the company) who harasse crew in this manner as they can be reported and a personal greivance may be taken out under EG102/3.
A quote of "bullying" under this policy is "This is the persistent misuse of power and aggression, sometimes subtle in nature, intended to hurt, humiliate and belittle an individual or group of individuals."
You do a totally different job to us, different things effect us to what effect you. None of you are really in a position to comment on our terms and conditions. Our problems are not just about NAPS (Im not a NAPS member) or EG300, this is an all encompassing battle. Give it a rest, dont bring it up in work and try and have a little bit of respect for your fellow man and colleague. At the end of the day just have some level of CRM if you are incapable of being nice through your own personality! Reducing women to tears is nothing to be proud of!
This is not a thread where we may debate the strike or whether it is right or its wrong. This is a posting to ask flight crew to remain professional and to let us get on and do what we need to do...there is already a thread on pprune where you can make your comments.
Fortunately I know this only applies to a handful of narrow minded pilots who can only get their points across through agression. You are not alone in your feelings towards the strike I am sure but there are true professionals out there who know when to comment and they know its not when in uniform or down route in the hotel bar!
Contact your own union if you have a problem with it, dont take it out on your charges!!!!

[Human Factor]

I'm actually in agreement with paddy. There will be strong emotions going around over the next few weeks on all sides so my advice is to remain professional at all times (cabin crew and flight crew), particularly in front of the passengers. Remember your first priority must always be safety and that will always be easier to achieve with a little CRM and teamwork.

What I would suggest is that discussion of strikes, terms and conditions, BASSA/CC89, etc IS KEPT OFF THE AEROPLANE.

Just in case you didn't hear me:

KEEP IT OFF THE AEROPLANE.

By all means discuss the issues in the crewroom, on the bus, in the bar or wherever. On board is not the place for it and if it's on my aeroplane, I will stamp on it hard.

[Sick Squid]

There has been some debate behind the scenes in PPRuNe about the provenance of this thread. I have made an executive decision to reinstate it, with a touch of initial editing following that debate. I feel in the best position to make that decision as it is my company involved, and there are some serious issues raised. I normally steer well clear from moderating threads affecting my company, but this is my first ever exception, and I am making it in a positive manner, bringing back an argument rather than burying it. But it is back with a VERY strong series of caveats.

First, a reminder; CRM is not about being nice to people. It is a skill to be used in order to get flight-critical information over in an effective manner, a manner which achieves the safest overall outcome for the flight without misunderstanding. Please do not confuse CRM with simple interpersonal skills. True, the two are most often firmly linked, and one can argue that touching on emotive topics at innapropriate times displays a lack of both. However, if this is not an appropriate time for the discussions referred to above, then what is? Perhaps one can choose the "moment" carefully, but this is the "time."

Second. It is fair to say that there is a culture developing nationwide at the moment where the moment someone says something you disagree with, or makes a statement in an assertive manner that then becomes classified as "bullying." There is a vast difference between someone asking for a personal opinion, or someone affected by the industrial action going on at the moment (directly or indirectly) saying something that someone may not wish to hear, and the pernicious and cowardly behaviour that is true bullying. Please try to differentiate.

Third. Avoid generalisations as much as is humanly possible. All pilots are not agressive t*****s, and all cabin crew not militant t***s. OK? Everyone is a human being, an individual, and some are different from others. Attack the arguments, not the population please.

Finally, there are a lot of people under a lot of stress right now. As a British Airways Captain, I work with them every day, and listen closely to all sides. Yes, I have my personal opinions, but I leave them at the door, and will not get involved in any debates beyond a few minor points more related to the lack of preparation for these events unfolding now given by the Union involved. I am most concerned by the effects this stressful time is having on the crew involved than anything else, both personally, and in their relationships with friends, colleagues and loved ones.

So debate away, but do try to keep the above in mind. Really, it is general advice for posting anything on the site, and should be taken as read, but people tend to forget that in the heat of posting.

Regards,
Squid
Cabin Crew Forum Moderator (the original, but nowhere near the best :) )

[oldflyboy]

Thanks for this important thread. As a cabin crew member for nearly 40 years in BA and its subsidiaries based in the regions, I can count on the fingers used to demonstrate contempt (that's two ) the pilots I have operated with in my career who have treated me and those I work with in an inappropriate way.

It may be small base mentality, but the Ladies and Gentlemen I have worked with treat all crew with respect, dignity and as equals. I have sat on both sides of the fence in past TU disputes, had many a passionate debate about the merits or not of whatever the dispute was about, and still felt comfortable, safe and supported by my pilot colleagues even if our views were different. We work in a super industry, and the working relationships we form with the people we work with are part of the joy flying brings us.

It is very sad then to see how the current industrial situation in BA has led to such venom from both sides, all anyone can do is to continue to treat each others different views with respect and remember that this dispute will be over sometime. Let's hope that working relationships will not be too damaged for some posters in the interim.

[apaddyinuk]

Squid....Thanks a million for reposting this thread. I thought it had just disappeared off down to the BA Pilots section, didnt realise it had actually become rather controversial.

Anyways, your points could not be more valid. I am very much of the same opinion as to when does a disagreement become "bullying"!!! I feel that term is very much a weapon of the PC police. However, this thread was born out of an event whereby someone I know was reduced to tears by someone who really should have known better.

Needless to say, I still have utter respect for all my flight deck colleagues especially those who can debate as opposed to argue their points.
And just to make a point on Human Factors post. Yes I totally agree with you in everything but the "Keep It Off the Plane". It should actually be "Keep it off duty" as we can spend up to 30 minutes on some ocassions on the bus to/from the aircraft and is one of the few occassions whereby ALL the crew are together for any amount of time. Also one of the stories I have become privvy to occured on the bus. It best just to avoid the discussion altogether when in uniform that way you do not need to worry about upsetting colleagues or having passengers earwigging!!!

I also overheard yesterday on an EI flight from DUB-LHR (i was in civvies as a passenger a few rows away) another BA pilot discussing it with a passenger. Very eloquent speaker, very fair for both sides but still could be heard clearly by a plane load of passengers. And how did I know he was a BA pilot as he too was in civvies??? He blatently mentioned it a few times!!! You never know whos listening!

[stormin norman]

BASSA are now aware of this and encouraging crew to take the names and staff numbers of flight crew (and indeed anyone in the company) who harasse crew in this manner as they can be reported and a personal greivance may be taken out under EG102/3.

Well said, but be aware that cabin crew (who have or will go sick this week) also signed up for EG300-it may just bite you.

[Dick Deadeye]

It has come to my attention that there are a number of you out there bullying cabin crew over the current industrial situation.

If this is true, personally I doubt it, but if it is, then Paddy has a very valid point.

Keep it off the aircraft, and be very careful not to abuse your position, or even give the impression of abusing your position.

However, in my experience, many mistake anyone daring to disagree with anything they care to spout, with bullying, cos that is what BASSA have told them it is. Hogwash.

I wonder how many of the CC tears have been caused by the slow realisation that this strike is not going to be the joyride that many believed it would be?

And as for bullying and harrassment, perhaps BASSA reps and those shortly going on picket lines (only in the hours of daylight mind you! :rolleyes: ) might want to refresh themselves on BA's corporate policy regarding any such allegations.

Wouldn't want to see any of them get into trouble now would we! :}

[apaddyinuk]

I dont think you will find any bullying and harassement from picketers towards others Dick!

Tis all legal and none of us are under any disillusionment that this is going to be an easy ride!

[TopBunk]

Tis all legal and none of us are under any disillusionment that this is going to be an easy ride!

Paddy

I wish I could agree. While you may be correct from the perspective of the informed, they are the minority by some margin.

From speaking / listening, many only now realise the enormity that is looming large. They thought all that would be required was a vote for BASSA. Unless things happen over the weekend, their resolve (and their bank accounts) are going to be sorely tested.

I wish I was a fly on the wall at the 'secret' meetings this weekend, both between WW and T&G, but also more so at the backroom T&G meetings.

Good luck - I think you'll need it.....

[Sporran]

Paddy,

It is a fair point that you raise regarding bullying and harassment. I was discussing the whole matter with a crew during a recent trip. One of the girls handed me the 'bullying and harassment note' from BASSA. Thankfully we were discussing the matter like adults - as is normally the case - but, I feel that the whole tone of the note almost amounts to threatening behavious from BASSA aimed at pilots.:confused:

As already stated on here - it is not bullying or harassment just because we have different opinions. It only becomes bullying and harassment if a person abuses their position. That can be be the more junior person just as easily as the more senior person.:cool:

I think it is VERY important that we continue to discuss the situation, but we must discuss the matter as adults.

My thoughts are with the many cabin crew that are realising that BA are willing for a BIG fight. :{

[Glamgirl]

I've had many discussions with our pilots on any subject you can think of (must admit I fell asleep during the one about golf ;)) and I've never come across any bullying for having a different opinion.

As a person who was bullied most of her life up until the age of 20, I know what bullying is really like. If someone harasses you on a continuing basis (basically 2 or more times) that is when you start realising it's bullying. Someone disagreeing with your opinion on a single occasion does not come under bullying or harassment. It may be unpleasant and make you feel out of your depth or another 3 million feelings, but it's not bullying. Any crew/staff who shout, swear, throw a tantrum etc etc to get their point across are not worth speaking to. Remove yourself from the situation (if possible of course). You can ask them to stop and you can say you don't feel comfortable discussing this anymore. If that doesn't stop someone on a mission (or with a grudge or similar), involve a colleague/supervisor and ask them to step in.

Just make sure that if you are going to have a discussion on any topic, then know your stuff. There are a few (vast minority) pilots who HAVE to be right and get the last word in. However, if you know facts and details, you can back up whatever opinion you have. That creates respect and that's what this is really about.

[nurjio]

I've had many discussions with our cabin crew on any subject you can think of (must admit I fell asleep during the ones about pedicures, manicures, sunbathing, mobile 'phones, arrogant flight crew, Hello, OK, Posh Spice, love aids, box payments, extended turnround payments, lipstick, stockings v tights, BASSA, BMWs, Minis, Mercs, horse riding, White Wine, fake Prada, but I didn't have a pudding, dieting, Big Brother,) and I've never come across any bullying for having a different opinion.

[apaddyinuk]

As I said lads and ladys, its a few isolated incidents and which have occured since all this strike milarky has started!!!
I dont have first hand experience either but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. It has occured and its shameful and I would hope if any of you happen to be in a situation whereby you are witness to it you will defend the person...be it a pilot who is being bullied or a crew member! I imagine its a rather lonely feeling otherwise!

[nurjio]

..and that was just the blokes I've been chatting with :}

nurj