questions for parents with young kids

[sisyphos]

Hi there,

witnessing the increasing pollution problem in H.K. , I was wondering how young kids get along with it. I always was planning on moving to H.K. sooner or later, but with a 2 year old and a second on the way I am not so sure anymore.

Is it responsible to put kids in that kind of environment at all ???

would like to hear your opinions..

[Dirty Lungs]

Your blurb says you are in HK?
Short answer - it is disgusting and it's getting worse. It is the one thing my family genuinely struggles with here. Consider this:

We have friends who are leaving expressly because of their concerns about air quality (they have children). My wife's mother's group is losing two families because of this. Small statistical sample I know but there you go.

Other industries that attract expats in HK are regularly paying a penalty percentage on salary packages to compensate for dragging families here. This is not rumour, reported in SCMP, The Standard. Figures quoted 5-10% on top.

Front page reports only recently in SCMP quote that the sky is obscured (overcast) due pollution one day in three. Think about that - you can't see the sky one day in three. Finding a horizon on those days is a challenge as well. I don't know if you fly into HK but if you do you would know there are days where the viz precludes you seeing the other end of the airport when you're on short finals. Pretty disconcerting when the dew point split means there is no natural phenomena that is reducing viz. It's all filth.

Singapore and HK are fierce rivals for business, investment etc. Both attract expats. Merrill Lynch recently issued a report comparing the two from an expat perspective and recommended that given the choice of relocating to either, then one should take the family to Singapore, and NOT to bring them to HK. The reason given - air quality. Can try to find the link if you want it.

It's not going to get better anytime soon. Not when it is the by-product of 10% growth in China and the burgeoning middle class across the border.

HK has an EPA, but frankly it is all smoke and mirrors. Case in point - their Pollution Index would lead you to believe things are not to bad if you check it. However, the index used is completely out of step with any index used in western countries. For an actual conversion and comparison of HK air quality to indexes in UK/US, go to www.cleartheair.com.hk (http://www.cleartheair.com.hk). Whilst you are there, put the kettle on, make a brew and slowly peruse the site and draw your own conclusions.

Hopefully your thread will generate some debate about this issue. My opinion is only that, I'm sure there may be some counter-views.

My post here may trigger a fair question - "Why are you still here then?" There's the old saying that as an expat you arrive with two empty buckets; one that will fill with money, the other with bullsh@t, and you leave when the first one fills up. In Hong Kong you arrive with those two empty buckets, as well as empty lungs. You'll leave when the first one fills up. Just remember that your children have smaller lungs than you.

[Numero Crunchero]

I know some people that whose child had asthma in hkg and I know of others who had asthma from natural sources back in oz but who were fine in hkg.
So I guess it depends. And where you live in hkg will affect how much air pollution you will get. I think some of the highest readings are from tung chung which has no industry. So if you move to somewhere that is shielded from china air should be better. Maybe DB or south side of hkg island.
Kids will spend a lot of their day in school or in home. SO if you buy air purifiers for your home that will cover up to 16hrs per day.

LA, NY, Syd, Mel, Lon etc all have varying degrees of air pollution. I realise we are worse here, but significantly less than beijing and shanghai.

Weigh it up against contact time with your kids. Better to have kids here whilst they are young than older.

cheers

[gliderboy]

For the record:

DB faces EAST and is not on the south side of anything.

DB has just as much pollution as Central.

The only real alternatives are: Clearwater bay, Sai Kung, South Lantau and the south side of HKG island

DB people: dream on!:ooh:

[Numero Crunchero]

gliderboy,
interesting. I met a gentleman that did air sampling for the EPD a few years back. He told me the worst air was happy valley and the best air was in DB. But I think the 'China effect' is starting to override local pollution sources.

[gliderboy]

I think that is the whole point.

Anything north facing succumbs to the china effect. Worst place of all Tung Chung (and that's not because management work there:) .

Anything south-facing has a chance if it has a topographical stopper.

Whilst all our lungs fill with putrid air, at least the DB boys are distracted with the weekly keyswap!!;)

[N1 Vibes]

To come back to Sisyphos's question. HKg has pollution everywhere, I'm surprised to see people debating the degrees of it when all areas of HKG has more pollution than the UK when looking at the statistics on http://www.cleartheair.org.hk/api.htm speaks for itself.

As a resident here for 6 years, living on Lantau, it saddens me to hike to the highest point on the island at 934m and still only come level with the top of the pollution. And that the pollution is so dense that you can't see more than a few kilometres. Things have definitley got visibly worse in those 6 years. Now exercising outdoors gives noticeable effect to breathing on 'bad' days. That's not just me, many other people I speak to will comment on how bad the air is on particular days when hking/running/cycling here.

I have recently thought about raising a family, and to be honest, they will hopefully breathe their first breath somewhere a lot cleaner than here. :uhoh:

[sisyphos]

dirty lung: I am based at the moment,been in h.k. just for training.

Now I am in H.K. every fortnight or so, and it is my impression that it is getting worse. I was interested how you guys see it beeing there constantly.

[Dirty Lungs]

Sisyphos,

how do I see it? Easy! I just open up the curtains on my living room window - it's always there!!! ;)

Current HK joke - the cable car up Lantau is called Ngong Ping 360 because there is always 360 metres of viz....


Sorry, you've gotta laugh about it otherwise you'd cry... :yuk:

[330dryver]

How does pollution circulate in the Pearl River Delta?
The pollution rises from everywhere, then it moves toward the cooler air over the Pearl River Estuary, then it falls and spreads out. This is why the Western New Territories and the Tung Chung area are especially polluted.
Pollution Circulation Pattern in the Pearl River Delta
Hong Kong University of Science and Technology


http://www.cleartheair.org.hk/images/PRDcirculationThumb.JPG (http://www.cleartheair.org.hk/images/PRDcirculation.jpg)

[bored]

China is constructing a new coal-fired power station every 5-10 days to keep up with domestic and commercial power needs(estimates are that power production will need to be 70% greater by 2020 to keep up with demand), private car numbers are increasing at 15-20% a year. Alot of those cars are cheap obsolete models with outdated emissions standards(ie, no catalytic converters). Stats from "The End Of Oil" by Paul Roberts. In short, its not looking good for the air quality in Hong Kong over the next decade!
Not a place for my lungs let alone a developing child's lungs!!
For me personally, I think one of those 'buckets' is going to fill up a bit quicker than I was originally planning!

[sisyphos]

Space Sensors Show Massive Surge In Chinese Air Pollution
http://www.spacemart.com/images/eo-envisat-china-no2-bg.jpg
Tropospheric nitrogen dioxide vertical columns over northeast China as measured by SCIAMACHY on Envisat, averaged between December 2003 and November 2004. A non-linear colour scale has been used because of the large range of NO2 vertical columns. Credits: Institute of Environmental Physics, University of Bremen et al.
Paris (AFP) Sep 01, 2005
The world's largest amount of the smog gas nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is hanging over Beijing and northeast China, according to images released by the European Space Agency (ESA) on Thursday.

Levels of NO2, a pollutant released by factories, power plants and vehicle exhausts, have risen by about 50 percent over China over the past decade as a result of spectacular economic growth and are continuing to increase, ESA said.
By comparison, concentrations of NO2 have remained steady or declined over industrial parts of the United States and eastern Europe, ESA said.
Exposure to NO2 in large quantities is known to cause lung damage and respiratory problems.
The gas is also a major ingredient of smog, the ground-level pollutant typically caused by interaction between sunlight and traffic pollution.
The data was sent back by instruments aboard the ESA Earth-monitoring satellite Envisat under a joint research project, called the Dragon Programme, by European and Chinese scientists.
"China's nitrogen dioxide concentration varies according to season," said John Burrows, a University of Bremen environmental physicist who is closely involved in the project.
"There is more in the winter as a result of differing emission patterns and meteorology.
"For example, more fuel is burned for heating, and nitrogen dioxide persists longer in the atmosphere at that less sunny time of year, lasting around a day rather than hours, as in the summer."
The map of NO2 pollution can be seen on ESA's website (www.esa.int) (http://www.esa.int)), and a text of the research was published on Thursday in the British weekly science journal Nature.


the red spot down south is hong kong, same concentration than beijing...

[Say Altitude]

Wow, that's some pretty enlightening information. I wonder for how many people this will be a deal breaker in taking an SO position? And secondly, will CX recruiting see the trend and start opening SO positions for locations other than HKG? Has there been any chatter about SO spots other than HKG? Having read here that some folks are leaving CX to go back to N. America, and that there is a crunch to hire new crews, is there change in the wind?

[Say Altitude]

I'm going to repost my questions 'cause I'm sure there has got to be some answers out there....

Has there been any chatter about SO spots other than HKG? Having read here that some folks are leaving CX to go back to N. America, and that there is a crunch to hire new crews, is there change in the wind?

Thanks in advance,

SA

[Joe le Taxi]

Interesting map showing the pollution circulation - Sai Kung looks like it should be better, particularly in winter with the NEasters, and its environs are very pretty.

Any views on living there with kids/getting to the airport/schools/housing costs/social life/expat %ge, etc, etc?

[N1 Vibes]

Jo Le Taxi

percentage of pop breakdown in HKG is someting like:

Chinese 90%
Asian 9%
Western 1%

Housing costs:

www.centaline.com

Travel to-from Airport:

http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/aguide/transport.html

In the immortal words - JFGI - Just F'in Google It :ugh:

[GlueBall]

You may manage if you're long haul and spend many days away. The heavy sulfur laced pollution is an obvious health hazard for adults and probably more so for infants and young kids. What helps is to install an electrostatic air cleaner upstream of your a/c evaporator, and position ionic air cleaners in all rooms. You will notice how quickly the filters get dirty. If your apartment complex has a central air system, its evaporators are likely cooled with chilled water which add significant humidity. You can neutralize that with portable dehumidifiers positioned in each room. :{

[N1 Vibes]

Glueball,

so what your saying is only go outside if you are wearing a protective mask that can filter down to micron level? What about when the children are in school, at the park, out swimming, shopping, bike riding, horse riding, living...... Sorry to be the cynic, but if you live in HKG there's no way of avoiding it. Apart from living in a hermetically sealed clean room with an air supply from Fiji perhaps?

[betaboy]

http://api.greenpeace.org.hk/data.htm

It is clear to anyone with half a brain that the HK government has simply set its air pollution index at a level that will allow further growth and expansion of fossil fuel emissions with a minimum of embarassment to itself and the mainland government. What this means to our kids' lungs is anyone's guess. As our DB doctor told us last week, there is a test for our kids' reaction to pollen, dust mites, and grasses. There is no test for pollution.

So we know that poor air quality is bad. We just don't know how bad exactly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070126/hl_afp/sciencepollution

After nearly two years here, I am constantly amazed at the government's ability to dismiss the issue, and worse, ridicule any concerns about it.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapacific/features/article_1238222.php/2006_Review_Hong_Kong_leaders_re-election_overshadowed_by_pollution

However, the silver lining is that at some point, Chinese business leaders will realize that expat talent will leave, and the locals will revolt, if they can't breathe the air and drink the water (HK water is fine but rivers in many parts of the mainland have been completely destroyed). And that will cost them money.

We plan to be long gone by then. In my time here, our 10 year plan has become a 4 year plan. Hong Kong is a great place, with many, many positive attributes. The air we breathe isn't one of them.

[SMOC]

Some kids in HK have never seen stars!

(The ones in space not Jackie Chan :rolleyes:)

[Kitsune]

Try this:
http://www.voanews.com/english/Science/2007-02-02-voa58.cfm?renderforprint=1&textonly=1&&TEXTMODE=1&CFID=92060426&CFTOKEN=80638077

It is important to note that:

1. China is building a new coal fired power station every week
2. Pollution measurements in HKG are not measured at ground level, the real levels in places like Causeway bay are frightening
3. Hong Kongs highest air pollution reading was 210 (compare with study) a couple of years ago, that of course, was at the HKIA............:uhoh: :sad: :uhoh: