BMI

[Mr. Blonde]

Doesn't appear to be the case, they are looking for applicants to transfer from Baby/Regional to the short haul fleet to fill the gaps left by people moving onto the A330. On top of that they have been recruiting externally for some time.

[8028410q]

I agree, baby are in desperate need of new aircraft, but I understand that 3 500's will be replaced by 3 300's when their leases expire in the next year. Having ex mainline A319's would be nice, but where would they go? BHX could have them to replace their fleet, but they would have to order more to expand there. They could go to CDF and MAN I suppose to replace their aircraft and also to expand their presence by one aircraft each (MAN 5, CDF 4), but it would have to be done at a base at a time (with respect to training and crew conversions). The replaced aircraft could then go to BHX to really make a baby presence felt!! 18 aircraft or so at BHX, awesome!
Baby might then have the capacity to operate spare aircraft as backups, sent at a moments notice to support other aircraft or bases. That would be nice!!
8028410q

[Flightrider]

In addition to the new A330s arriving from next year (I heard rumours of two ex-Air China RR Trent powered machines as the only way of getting 2008 deliveries?), bmi needs to find Heathrow slots to continue the 8x A320/A321s of work absorbed from BMed for which the Heathrow slots have been pre-sold to BA.

Other rumblings I have heard suggest that:

MAN-LAS/BGI/ANU will be dropped and picked up by Virgin, cutting back on MAN-Orlando to serve the extra destinations from Manchester using the
existing 747-400 fleet "based" there.

MAN-Heathrow will be dropped. It is performing very poorly indeed with low loadfactors due mostly to lack of connecting traffic and strong competition from Virgin trains.

If one assumes that this is correct - it might not be - then it would suggest that three A330s will be available for new activity next year (two ex Air China and one ex MAN) and that if each aircraft flies a daily roundtrip, they will need 11 daily slots at LHR to free up from other activity. (3 x A330s plus 8 x BMed aircraft = 11).

If MAN-LHR was dropped (seven per day) then you're probably looking at routes like TeesSide-LHR (four per day) or a combination of Hannover-LHR (three per day) plus the extra "slot sitter" on Leeds-LHR (one per day) being dropped to provide LHR slots to fly the programme.

If Manchester-Heathrow is as bad as is being suggested, this could be a "quick hit" to free up Heathrow slots without mass carnage being inflicted on the bmi network as a whole.

[Little Blue]

SBU a/c?
Would be more than nice....More like a bloody luxury !!!
319's...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm:)

[DTVAirport]

I do believe my local MME will fall victim to bmi's axe, although I have been told that they are staying for the winter, with the Saturday evening night-stopper being upgraded from an E145 to an A319, but what I can't understand is, why chop entire routes? Why not just take one rotation of LBA, one or two off MME, one or two off MAN, etc etc, that way, you free up slots, and keep the regional routes to feed the new long haul routes?

[lexxity]

In this months internal mag there is talk of reduced shorthaul frequencies. Oct 28th is the start of the winter season, that's when we'll all know more.

[bhd-lonFLYer]

Do you think belfast will keep its frequency due to decrease in passenger numbers and the rumors that ei may come to bfs and operate to lhr.

[lexxity]

Regional are to start a MAN-SOU in mid-September if they can get an aircraft from Embraer.

[Curious Pax]

Talking of which what happened to the 4 Embraers bmi were getting in 'early 2007' as announced in a press release on the 10th January? None have been added this year yet as far as I can make out.

[lord mash]

Lexxity do you know if staff will be based at SOU or Man if this goes ahead?
Regards Lord Mash

[GW76]

Let me assure you Baby will not be getting A319s from Mainline anytime soon if at all, perhaps new aircraft at some point. The A319 is fitting vey well with the shorthaul fleet as predicted, why on earth do you think they ordered them in the first place....?

[OltonPete]

New!

They could just have a day trip to BHX, slip a few in their pockets when nobody is looking (see other threads on BHX Security), which BE have sitting around ;) Bingo problem solved :}

Pete

[lexxity]

If it all comes off the a/c will be SOU based and it will be 4xdaily.

[airhumberside]

What about EDI-SOU, which had been talked about a while ago along wth MAN-SOU?

[darren1]

I'd be amazed if this actually happens..remember AMS?

[lord mash]

Nothing amazes me anymore i think this time it might just happen,might be worth dusting off the cv again

[darren1]

They'd be much better off basing an airframe down here in SOU and flying to the Star Alliance hubs of MUC, FRA and CPH :D

[airmemphis]

bmi will launch a daily London/Heathrow - Cairo flight from 28th October 2007. The flight will be operated using A320s with a similar business class as that used to Moscow.

BD771 LHR/CAI 09:05/15:50
BD772 CAI/LHR 16:40/19:50

Quite a tight turnaround in Cairo.

[chrism20]

The backing out of the SOU/AMS probably had something to do with Scotairways applying for slots for an EDI/LBA which is a very lucrative route for BMI there are never any cheap fares on it.

If I remember correctly slots had been applied for EDI & MAN/SOU for the summer timetable and given some of the OTP & crewing issues BE have at the moment, BMI may think the time is right.

I am not sure about MAN/SOU but average fares on EDI/SOU have risen sharply since BE had the route to itself.

[aeulad]

I think the timings for the Cairo flight are not the best. They are timed well for inbound US connections, but there are NO possibilities for UK-US connections. This is gonna be a killer of a shift, and don't even get me started on turning a 2 class aircraft round in 50 mins!

Regards

Mike

[airmemphis]

AEUlad,

Though I agree that the flights won't allow for much CAI-US traffic, it certainly offers a good alternative schedule to that offered by the incumbent carriers on the route, BA and MS, who depart LHR in the late afternoon and depart CAI in the early morning.

As for the turnaround time, I agree 50 minutes is certainly tight. Though it won't be an issue getting the aircraft ready in 50 minutes, it doesn't take into account any possible delays of the inbound flight (quite common on flights ex-LHR). Furthermore until CAI's T3 opens next year, the airport is certainly burdened with more flights/pax than it was designed for. Thankfully the airline will be operating from the modern and 'new' Terminal 1, as opposed to the 'out-dated' T2 which is used by most international carriers.

As for it being a 'killer shift', it all depends on how BD will manage these services. If their crew stay overnight in Cairo as opposed to operating both in/outbound services as most UK charter airlines do when flying UK-Egypt-UK services then it will be quite an easy shift...a short 5 hour flight (Egyptian pax aren't too demanding) followed by a 22 hour rest.

[aeulad]

If this CAI turns out to be a nightstop, I will eat my (BA for now)wings!

Regards

Mike

[BMEDFO]

:ugh:

Cario is not a nightstop but a day return for the crew.

I'm waiting to see if BEY/AMM all turn into day returns as well. Thats along day out driving into LHR then CAI and back and drive home.

[Green Army]

Hello,

As we all do I was reading the news and I couldn't help it but I came across a rather surprising article. Is there anyone out there that knows more about this???

Please read:

http://news.travelcounsellors.co.uk/BA_hoping_to_land_a_%C2%A31_billion_bmi_takeover_18103453.ht ml

or

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article1929255.ece

or

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/07/12/cnopen112.xml

These are just a few...


HOPE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!

THX

[Count von Altibar]

Much speculation abounds, I think the crunch will come when the 'put' option reverses at the end of 2008. Sir Dickie is definitley trying everything he can to nab bmi via Lufthansa.

[airhumberside]

The backing out of the SOU/AMS probably had something to do with Scotairways applying for slots for an EDI/LBA which is a very lucrative route for BMI there are never any cheap fares on it.
Didnt BE also announce SOU-AMS at around the same time?

[airmemphis]

If CAI is not a night stop then I imagine the crew will at least get generous crew rest time before and after the flight.

Apparently bmi have signed a 'commercial agreement' with Egyptair for this new service. The latter are expected to join Star Alliance in the foresseable future.

[Nubboy]

"If CAI is not a night stop then I imagine the crew will at least get generous crew rest time before and after the flight. "

:ok:

[b mi baby]

This subject is becoming such a BIG YAWN. It comes around every month or two and collects the same drivel from the same people. Maybe SMB will be buying 49% of Virgin from Singapore Airlines - now that would be a turn up for the books. Maybe eventually bmi might take over Virgin. It is possible afterall - as is me collecting the big lotto prize. :(

[chrism20]

Didnt BE also announce SOU-AMS at around the same time?

Yes, and numbers haved soared on that route. BE even added an additional rotation before it started due to demand.

BMI announced 17/05/06
Flybe announced 19/06/06

Scotairways also never started ops EDI/LBA

[airmemphis]

Though its grood to see bmi serving Cairo, they have now announced the termination of Alexandria (HBE) flights from this winter. Bmed have been operating the route for a number of years but bmi now claim that with the new CAI service the UK-Egypt BASA does not allow the carrier the required frequencies to maintain both CAI and HBE. I can assure you that this reasoning is NOT true. Egypt operates an almost open skies policy out of all its airports (except CAI), and services from all other airports like Alexandria (HBE and ALY), Sharm El Sheikh (SSH), Hurghada (HRG), Luxor (LXR), etc are not restricted by any BASA.

It's a shame bmi cannot be forthright with their explanation. Having done work with the airline in the past, this can almost be percieved as the norm.

[Yak97]

From the Netherlands Slot Co-ordinators website BMI have been allocated slots at RTM for W07? Where will they be flying from? And how come they got RTM slots when its says they only allocate slots on historic basis?

[Richard Taylor]

Apparently, perhaps someone can confirm, bmi R have ABZRTM slots.

Maybe that what the BRU aircraft will do once ABZBRU is axed later this month, in between the ABZAMS rotations.

[airhumberside]

Heres the slot application

A RTM BD301 29OCT 28MAR 1234500 037 ER3 ABZ ABZ 0850
D RTM BD302 29OCT 28MAR 1234500 037 ER3 0920 ABZ ABZ
A RTM BD303 28OCT 28MAR 1234507 037 ER3 ABZ ABZ 1815
D RTM BD304 28OCT 28MAR 1234507 037 ER3 1845 ABZ ABZ

[OliWW]

Could this be expantion for bmi??

I was just looking through Airbus order, and delivery sheets and noticed that bmi have got 6 more A319 on option, compared to the 3 it said on there a while ago... Also another 3 A320 on option and then not forgetting the aircraft coming from BMED...

Could this mean big expantion??

[finding_nema]

The big expansion is most likely the 10 Airbus aircraft which have already been ordered. There's going to be big expansion on flights to the Middle East following the BMED purchase with an increase in frequency and maybe one or two new routes all operated by the A321s. Add to that the A330s which are going to be launching trans-Atlantic flights and it's going to be a really exciting year for bmi out of Heathrow. What remains to be seen is what will happen with regional and baby, as well as if anything is meant by a comment made by the deputy CEO two months ago that bmi group is more interested in buying other airlines rather than being bought. There's been a lot of rumour that with less focus at LHR on shorthaul, the existing 319s and those on order could be coming to baby, but I'll only believe that when I see an A319 position in with tiny scribbled across the tail. We certainly know the baby 735s are on their way out over the next couple of months, though it looks like they're just being replaced by 733s from another part of tropical obscurity.

[OliWW]

Too be honist,

It will be hard for baby to find B733 now, they had enough trouble finding G-TOYJ and G-TOYK and still no sign of G-TOYI, so Im not sure how they will find more, maybe they will look into A319

Would be a nice change in the fleet if they did!

[finding_nema]

But a nice change of fleet a sustainable business model does not make, as it were. For baby to move over to the Airbus you'd need to retrain everyone from the bottom up. That's not so much of a problem if you're a massive operation like easyJet, but for a small airline like bmibaby, it'd be costly in terms of both time and money. The benefits of a new fleet are obvious - less likely to be tech, less likely to be fuel guzzlers, less likely to be peeling all over etc. but if baby can keep using the tried & tested -300s there will. Obviously they're not as cheap or as available as they were two or three years ago, but the market is still pretty fresh.

[OltonPete]

According to CH Aviation it states Baby have got hold off 2 x AirOne 733's and one ex Varig 733.

No dates are mentioned.

The last two aircraft in the fleet were ex US Registered (TOYK, previously Qantas) and other was Indonesian registered (TOYJ).
I assume that these three aircraft mentioned on CH Aviation are "new" and will replace some of the 500's?

Pete

[mathers_wales_uk]

I'm sure i have read sumwhere that BmiBaby were considering to sell their 6 735 in order to purchase 8 733.

And one of them sould be on their way to CWL if one ofthe most recent interviews by Crawford Rix is correct regarding further expantion at Cardiff.

[Kempus]

Hi,

Lots of subjective information in this thread which is good to see!
I'm trying to find information on BMI's most profitable route pre BMED integration or what effect the ceasure of Bermuda 2 agrement will have from next year.

I'm thinking Moscow but can anyone clarify or tell me where on the interweb I can find this kind of info?

Kempus

[Count von Altibar]

I think the Belfast City to Heathrow is the most profitable at the moment, partly due to currently (soon to change with the arrival of Aer Lingus from Aldergrove) having a monopoly on the route.

[DTVAirport]

Huh, it wasn't ages ago that MME was their most profitable - now they've told Aviance UK that they're axing the route after the winter 07/08 season. :mad:

[11K-AVML]

MME is just to retain some of the LHR landing slots, IIRC.

[airhumberside]

With ABZ-AMS/BRU being chopped, does this free up an ERJ for SOU-MAN?

[DTVAirport]

They've apparantly got slots for Rotterdam from Aberdeen, not sure if that has been mentioned already or not.

[airhumberside]

Forgot about that - they had slots for double daily at RTM so ABZ-AMS could be directly replaced by AMS-RTM if bmi take those slots up

[DTVAirport]

Ams-rtm? ;)

[Nubboy]

Slot filler:ok:

[Jes]

Can anyone say why BMI has booked 10 rooms at a hotel near Manston, Kent for this Friday?

[DTVAirport]

Don't know but I hope it doesn't involve London Manston Airport.

[Twitcher]

Things have moved on...
you mean Kent International Airport Manston

[Airbus215]

Charter flight series "W" pattern thru MSE - twice a week !
Late addition to the most profitable part of the airline !

[Northern Hero]

DTVAirport - ''now they've told Aviance UK that they're axing the route after the winter 07/08 season.''

No they have'nt ! :ugh:

[DTVAirport]

Well I hope you're right! Aviance is a source that isn't usually wrong, and that's what someone heard on the DTVA thread.

I suppose it's encouraging that they're handing the route partially back to mainline for the Winter at least.

[carbheathot]

LHR-MME My information suggests that a formal announcement to the press is imminent despite Peel attempting to hold it back
watch this space:sad:

[DTVAirport]

Well if Peel is trying to hold it back that can only mean it's not good.

What annoys me is that bmi were supposed to be reviewing the base in September yet it all seems to have been decided prior to August! :mad::ugh:

[glasgowpik]

A question to anyone who might have tried it.
How is the BMI flight from Glasgow International to Venice in Italy?(operated weekly on a charter basis)
I've heard it's not a really direct flight,as it does a stopover at Newcastle both ways.
Is this true?
Any report about this flight would be appreciated.

[mmeteesside]

Yep it does indeed stop in Newcastle both ways every Sunday.

[glasgowpik]

Thanks.
So it's not a very comfortable flight for Glasgow travellers.At least they could have split the hassle between the two airports by starting one leg from Newcastle.
It's a pity,the advantage of the holiday flight from Scotland is to avoid the London connection,but in this case I'm not so sure.

[scorpio88]

BMI plans to start transatlantic flights from 2009 instead of March next year :ugh:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20415313/

[Cyrano]

I hear LBA-Lille is being canned. Another in the illustrious roll-call of "what were they thinking?" short-lived bmi regional routes! Yes, all carriers need to try routes out, and no, they won't always work, but it just seems to me that in recent years bmir seem to have had a higher propensity for choosing dogs than most...

[aeulad]

US services from LHR postponed until 2009. 330s will be used on Middle East routes.

Regards

Mike

[akerosid]

The situation at LHR is being blamed, but I wonder is there more to it than that; after all, BD has five A332s on order. What is going to happen to these? Will it swap production slots with other airlines? Quite expensive if they have to take them and again, have to use them on routes other than those intended.

Of course, they could take delivery and return MAN-IAD to a 330 operation and return to the LHR-BOM route? Any other non-US long haul routes being looked at?

[Doug E Style]

Production slots are not an issue. None of the "new" 330s are brand new, they're all second hand.

[Doug E Style]

The GLA-NCL-VCE flight is only on the ground in NCL long enough to upload fuel and about 75 pax. The GLA pax stay on the aircraft so it's not really that bad.

[Localiser Green]

The article mentions 2 of the 5 'new' A330s arriving Spring '08, does anyone know when the remaining 3 are arriving?
Also with the 5 new (BMED) A321s, what are the scheduled delivery dates for these?

[ryan2000]

After all the clamour about open skies, now this!

[ducksoup]

Cannot say I blame Sir MB for delaying whilst the LHR infrastructure is so poor.

When BMI do take on the others, it will need a superior service as well as keen pricing to compete effectively.

Anyone remembering the competition between BMA and the BA shuttle between LHR and GLA/EDI will also remember the lesson that BA were taught then. I would suspect that Sir MB remembers only too well and that is why he is prepared to wait.

[Tisme]

As far as I am aware tashkent isn't staying

[ducksoup]

flapsfulretard

I didn't suggest the 330s should be on the GLA. Perhaps you are too young to remember the truly awful shuttle before BMA joined in!

What I was trying to say was that in order to attack any transatlantic market, a better product than the opposition must be in place. Hence, whilst LHR is in turmoil, it would be difficult and I am sure that SMB will not act on such a fundemental expansion until BAA gets it's sh*t together.

BA were obliged to react to BMA in the early eighties and they did, but not before BMA had their feet well and truly under the table on these routes.

I agree with you about airlines being in business for so long and nearly forty of these years has been with Bishop at the helm!

[BMEDFO]

Tashkent stopped last Autumn.

Is it true the A330s have been delayed until 2009 as well? Pity Tehran, BEY and Almaty could certainly use these!

[cheshirerooms]

flapsfullretard....

"why walk down the hill and f**k one cow when you can walk down the hill and f**k all the cows."

That is a classic. Did you make that up? haha....:}

Gold star for you!

[Jet2Leeds]

A report in to-day's Travel Trade Gazette says that BMI will drop LBA- Lille from 21 September, surprise,surprise!!, due to low loads.
Another report says BMI will drop domestic flights from Heathrow to Manchester, LBA & Durham Tees. First to go will be Manchester where traffic has dropped from 120,000 per year to 76,000.
The airline will unveil its winter timetable in a couple of week when it will confirm its move away from domestic and short haul routes in favour of routes to the middle east and further afield. Improved rail links and security delays are given as the main reasons.

Comments above taken from another forum

[Max Angle]

does anyone know when the remaining 3 are arriving?never would be my guess, pathetic climb down after all those years of lobbying to get open skies.

[Count von Altibar]

A pathetic climb-down indeed. A sell-off shouldn't be too far down the line now. Sir Michael Bishop has done well to position the airline over the years. Now with open-skies in place, a huge slot portfolio and bilateral rights to fly all these mid-haul routes thanks to the aquisition of BMED, the airline is approaching it's peak value. My money is on Lufthansa but BA & Virgin Atlantic will be watching very closely to get their chance of grabbing it.

[Seat1APlease]

If there is any cancellation of domestic services then I suspect is has more to do with LHR slots than anything else, BA only use the route to feed onto their international network.


You can travel by train from MAN city centre to London in 2hours 20 minutes, for £12.50 at the moment, so those slots are probably of more use for other things, either expanding the BMED routes, or new Atlantic services.

[MUFC_fan]

First to go will be Manchester where traffic has dropped from 120,000 per year to 76,000.


LOL!

Never in a month of Sundays! Durham would be first to go. MAN can supply ALOT of connecting passengers if BMI were to start US flights. Would be very surprised if the whole service was cut.

[Doug E Style]

Can't see MAN-LHR getting axed, it's a crew shuttle most of the time.

[6chimes]

MAN more likely to go to regional operations than be dropped.

6

[AltFlaps]

If SMB sells to Lufty or Virgin, what will happen to bmiBaby ?

Who on earth would be interested in 21 old Boeing 737s

:bored:

[FlyboyUK]

Lufthansa may increase BMI stake: CEO

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070825/tbs-germany-britain-airline-549cbb6_1.html

[Skipness One Echo]

Well Lufty have loads of older 737s............

[OltonPete]

AltFlaps

I see your point re Baby and as a passenger on their flights it is distressing to see them adding more old 733's!

However non of Baby's 737's are 25 years old. G-BYZJ is the oldest 300, built in 1991 with 33909 hours at 31/12/03 per the CAA. G-OBMP is next in 1992 with 37408 at 31/12/04 - went on that one in early August and it was fine inside and only the paintwork was a little tatty.

They have three 735's built in 1991 (G-BVZG, H & I) and I understand that some if not all of these three aircraft will be replaced over winter 2007/8 with some more 300's.

G-BVKB built in 1994 is the new one of the 500's and has only 27579 hours on the clock at 31/12/05 - a good few years left possibly?

Pete

[glasgowpik]

Ducksoup,could you please explain the shuttle route competition between BA and BMA?
I'd like to know more about that.

[747-436]

Can't see MAN-LHR getting axed, it's a crew shuttle most of the time.

I don't think an airline would take into account the fact that a lot of its employess commute from a certain place when they are looking into its future as a route to operate.

If they needed the slot to operate something else then they would. Although on the Manchester route the only time I can see that being dropped by either BMI or BA is when there is a quicker and cheaper train service than there is at the moment.

I heard that years ago when BMI started one of its scottish routes on the first day BA put Concorde on the route to steal the limelight!!

[Vapor]

Looks like they are talking down in Limerick about BMI and SNN-LHR.....




http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0828/shannon.html



"But he added that if the Shannon Airport Authority came up with 'some support', BMI would look at any package closely."

[Cyrano]

Can't help noticing that SNN-LHR and DTV-LHR are both 1 hr 20 block time, if you get my drift... ;)

[acbus1]

What a shambles! Assuming it isn't all intentional, as Max Angle (as ever probably spot on) and Von Altibar have suggested. I thought MB had lost his historically over-cautious marbles, but this latest screech to a timid halt is more true to form.

Even the excuse isn't too convincing, is it? I thought bmi was hyped up as being adept at taking advantage of chaos - Heathrow in a mess should be ideal, "if" all that hype is correct (that is a great big "if" though).

All this delaying whilst maintaining fleet expansion is going to be massively expensive. Bet Lufty and SAS are chuffed at the prospect of another year or more well into the red.

It's nice being a spectator on the outside, settled happily with a profitable airline which knows how to treat people properly. :) I just feel sorry for all the decent people in bmi (and not sorry at all for all the b******s, of which there are an abnormally high number).

[finding_nema]

OK I'm going to stick my neck out and gush with a most unusual pride for the company I work for. bmi would not have been in the business for as long as they have, had they not taken calculated risks or lucked in quite a lot. SMB might be right to let the dust settle from Open Skies before launching his product, once T1 is ready as the Star Alliance terminal and the bunfight is under way. On the other hand it means we're getting in late and might miss crucial new market share. Regarding bmibaby, the -500s are on their way out allowing the company to standardise on the -300. Although not as shiny and new as some other airlines' fleets, they are here to stay having joined us from every corner of the world, and get about getting people from A to B cheaply and safely. If baby needed a new fleet like mainline or regional, we'd have one. Also I'm sure plenty of airlines would line up to buy us, our fleet is leased so easily expendible, little heirarchy with many tasks still performed by mainline and a good slot portfolio.

[Gary Lager]

If baby needed a new fleet like mainline or regional, we'd have one.

Don't you mean if the board wanted baby to have a new fleet, they'd have one? Necessity has never been a reason for the board to open the purse before!

And getting rid of the -500s to "standardise" on the -300s? Which management e-mail did you copy-and-paste that one from? Since when has there been any significant 'non-standard' issues between the two?!! There was no problem at BM for 11+ years; financial, operational or otherwise...

[pwalhx]

I guess I am totally out of step with everyone else as I read BMI's decision to hold of transatlantic flights and thought it was a sensible idea.

There will no doubt be a rush to offer flights from LHR, why not stand back see what happens and then once the dust has settled go ahead.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I have noticed on Jethro website that BmiBaby is expecting a delivery of a 733 aircraft in May 2008, currently registered as EICUS (air one) any news on when others will arrive?

[acbus1]

why walk down the hill and f**k one cow when you can walk down the hill and f**k all the cows

Don't think MB is too interested in such activities with cows, either singly or in numbers.

If SMB sells to Lufty or Virgin, what will happen to bmiBaby ?
Who on earth would be interested in 21 old Boeing 737s

Bye Bye Ba-a-a-a-aby, Baby Bye Bye (and no, I'm not a Bay City Rollers fan)
You should have weighed up the baby prospect before joining! Unless you joined in the optimistic beginning, when baby was formed to compete valiantly and corageously with Easyjet (Go) when they moved in on East Midlands. "Lets see off the imposters!" was the cry.

Come to think......all this talk of how bmi likes competition, it hasn't actually done very well at all against Easyjet, has it?

Or Ryanair

Or.......hey, come to think, it hasn't done well against anyone!

Nope, only time bmi likes competition is when it has the advantage of Heathrow slots, short haul, against BA. That's pretend competition.

Could it just be bmi has realised that transatlantic will be real competition, even with Heathrow slots in it's arsenal?

Yep, looks very much like bmi is scared of real competition and that's why it is delaying the start of the transatlantic "war".

[mathers_wales_uk]

Tui and a certain lo-cost airline could be interested in a few old 733

[I.C.Nosignal]

Acbus1, same old vitriol and poison You must still be really miffed because bmi gave you the push:D especially now the the airline is really on the up!!
SMB has forgotton more about running an airline than you will ever know!! and your anti bmi tirades are childish in the extreme, may I suggest you goo back to whatever it is you do best (loading bags?) and leave the airline discussions to the real airline people:ok:

[Mod Kit]

Loading Bags??? More like shoveling sh1t. Acbus1 is obviously a very bitter ex bmi member of staff with posts not worth reading.

[acbus1]

I, as usual, was merely expressing my opinion, this being a Forum for that purpose, I've been assuming.

Do the last three "contributors", or anyone else, disagree that bmi baby has failed to compete successfully with any other airline?

Do the last three "contributors", or anyone else, disagree that the "success" of bmi has relied entirely upon its allocation of Heathrow slots?

Do the last three "contributors", or anyone else, disagree that the "success" of bmi at Heathrow has been entirely on short haul routes, against a single so-called competitor in the form of British Airways, who have famously little interest in short haul (presumably because BA have bigger profits to rake in on their long haul routes and their Heathrow slot allocation gives them a vast "competitive" advantage in that respect)

Do the last three "contributors", or anyone else, disagree that bmi management from the top down is a shambles. (and isn't it fascinating how that management assumes the characteristics of its upper echelons .....pilot haters to a man. Even the pilot management hates, bullies and victimises its "fellow" pilots).

Do the last three "contributors", or anyone else, disagree that this latest retreat from real competition exposes the true colours of bmi and it's "management".

Do the last three "contributors" actually have a contribution to make to the thread topic? I've posed you some questions to answer, since you seem to be bereft of original thoughts or opinions (about the thread topic, not me) of your own.

...now that the airline is really on the up

Is it?

All it has done so far is buy a loss making airline (with Heathrow slots, just to give the real motive away).

bmi will be on the up when it consistently makes a profit! Simple business fact - a company is on the up when it makes money! At least you've finally admitted that bmi has been down (for some years, if you really open your eyes)!



BTW, I don't contribute because I'm bitter. I contribute because the majority seem blind to the facts and to reality. It's a continuing fascination and frustration for me - how a workforce, almost to a man, can be so blind, to the extreme extent that it is to their own severe disadvantage!

...may I suggest you goo back to whatever it is you do best...

Thanks for the suggestion.

But, a question......how, exactly, does one "goo"?

[Max Angle]

with Heathrow slots, just to give the real motive away)To be fair BMED came without the slots, the new schedule will be operated using bmi slots. What it did have was route licenses, how much money we can make out of them is very much open to question IMHO, I guess we will see in the next 6-12 months. Unfortunately the rest of the picture you paint is largely accurate, bmi is VERY far from out of the woods yet and I don't think the mainline part of the company will enjoy much success until someone else owns it and runs it.

[LHRKLBD]

Hi All,

New routes are being annouced on tuesday 04th Sep. Any ideas as to what these could be ? I'm not talking about CAI or the BMed selection so other destinations.

LHR/SNN (highly likely !)

[I.C.Nosignal]

But, a question......how, exactly, does one "goo"?
Nit picking on a typo:eek:
The last and most childish defence of the indefensible by a one trick pony with a warped agenda
1/ We are talking about bmi and not bmibaby so lets keep to the subject in hand
2/ The success of bmi was based on SMB`s determination to take on BA in the 1980s on the domestic and then European short haul market his success in doing this is dmonstrated by the very fact that bmi is still in business and has managed to see BA off on more than one route
3/ Your opinion on the management is predictable bearing in mind you were binned by the company (can`t think why:})
4/ Why try and take on the competition when you can go for routes that have no other operators serving the destination out of LHR, the issue SMB had was about a chosen few being able to operate to the US from LHR not to particular destinations within the US.
The true colours are of a cautious management who will pick their time and place to commence operations and will not be rushed into decisions by disgruntled EX employees whose sole wish in life is to see a lot of hardworking people out of a job because he has an axe to grind
5/ You have not posed any meaningful questions all you have done is to spout your predictable and rather sad opinions again, it really is time to find a new outlet for your frustrations
It's a continuing fascination and frustration for me - how a workforce, almost to a man, can be so blind, to the extreme extent that it is to their own severe disadvantage!

Maybe because deep down most of us are intelligent enough to realise that bmi is by no means the worst employer in the industry and most of us can see a future with the company.We have seen some bad times and now we are looking forward to the good times AND THAT`S WHAT FRUSTRATES YOU!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[6chimes]

The success of bmi was based on SMB`s determination to take on BA in the 1980s on the domestic and then European short haul market his success in doing this is dmonstrated by the very fact that bmi is still in business and has managed to see BA off on more than one route

That isn't actually true, it was the other members of the BBW partnership that pushed a very reluctant SMB into it!

Where do all you guys that are gushing such wonderous support for bmi work? I havn't heard any comments like that from the folk I work with. Its pretty much as A1 posts. I am intrigued to know which base I should put in a transfer for as I really want to have your views. Honestly, I would love to have the faith you guys have.

I havn't seen such posts here before and the only thing that has changed recently is the crew food, has some happy pills been put in it?

6

[EC-ILS]

BMI are restarting their lunch time DUB-LHR flight BD125/126 for the winter.

[mccdatabase]

Where do all you guys that are gushing such wonderous support for bmi work?
It is not a matter of wonderous support, we all know that at times things could be done better, however my view is that the grass is no greener with most airlines out there. Sadly some disgruntled ex employee who could not make the grade keeps on trying to rubbish the company and make ridiculous statements like the ones we are seeing in this thread and I for one agree with I.C and think he deserves to be challenged, I know I should not rise to trolls but I, as usual, was merely expressing my opinion, this being a Forum for that purpose,:ok:

[Mod Kit]

I agree 100% with mcc... I am more than aware of the seemingly poor management decisions made by bmi, whether that be mainline, regional, longhaul etc etc.

What annoys me more though, are posts which only seem to want to destroy speculation and discussion in this forum. I enjoy constructive discusion and criticism but do not enjoy it when it is so obviously one sided and single minded.

bmi are far from right in many of the decision made from my perspective as an 'armchair' CEO!!! There have been a lot of good people affected with the years of cutbacks and poor decisions i.e. getting rid of business, cutting engineering, starting routes to cancel months later. I could go on but won't. But they have been around for years and look to continue to do so - so they must be doing something sort of right.

I hope they find the right way forward and make the company a success again - like it once was.

[6chimes]

Mod kit; you seem to be totally contradicting yourself. On the one hand you criticise those that suggest bmi management are useless and on the other you criticise them yourself.

It would seem that the only reason anyone here supports bmi is because they have survived for years. And there is a very simple explanation why they have lasted so long: the staff. Whilst the management have fretted from one problem to another and made half hearted attempts at one market/route or another, the staff have covered up the day to day failures and made sure the job was done, without the support/infrastructure/INVESTMENT that bmi should have given its customers and staff.

If survival is the only measure of success then bmi is a success story. If on the other hand success is measured by growth, innovation, brand and profit then bmi is a failure, albeit one that is still around.

Bmi is a privately owned company and as long as it remains that way it will only ever benefit one man (if it was mine, I would do the same!). Until that changes, the slots which bmi control at LHR will never reach their full potential for passengers or staff.

6

[globemaster3]

Looks like the 300s and 500s of Bmibaby are getting on a bit,i wonder if Bmibaby will replace them or upgrade them to 737NG,since many airlines such as Flybe and Easyjet are on the eco theme at the minute and i shouldnt see why Bmibaby shouldnt take part in it,might attract a few new customers:cool:

[Rainboe]

The 300 and 500 do the job just right. What's wrong with them? Cabin maintenance has nothing to do with the aeroplane itself, and they are the best tool for the job. But maybe this discussion is better in Spotters where it belongs? This is Rumours and News young man.

[dumdumbrain]

Whats wrong with the 300 n 500s, going tech all the time at EMA. Its not just about going echo friendly but new a/c save on fuel, which means a lower base cost, cheaper tickets or profit.. . . . . . .

Lee

[EGAC_Ramper]

Well actually dumdumbrain the costs of leasing a 737-300/500 is considerably less per month than leasing and ex-Ryanair 737-800. I'm sure the bean counters at BMI Baby have it all in hand and just to add they are looking at newer aircraft but as yet which type has been undecided.


Regards

[CVTDog]

I have usually been able to plan well in advance my flights with BMI B with their shedules for the following summer (May - Oct) coming out fairly early in July of the previous year.

MON and TOM have been available for some time now but Baby are very late this year. The customer relations people have no idea when they will be released ..... any views on here ?

[OltonPete]

CVTDog

I think Baby are late November in respect of their summer timetable, they don't seem to be bothered that Monarch announce early.

I notice that the 5th BHX - EDI and the first EDI based aircraft has just
disappeared from the summer timetable (same for the 4th Glasgow) which
should have started yesterday. It is in for winter though the last time I looked.

As for baby, their impressive BHX route record continues with only Newquay dropped and Bordeaux/Marseille this winter but these will probably be back. Therefore in 33 months just Newquay lost quite a record for a LOCO

I am not sure if this is a sign of good route development or just BHX's lack
of decent LOCO routes.

Still no Madrid, any news Lee.

Pete

[Redline747]

I'm so glad to be coming over to all this, out of the frying pan..............!

[OltonPete]

Press release now out on their website!

No mention of chopped routes (if any) but their is a wish list as well

Selective quote from the site rather than posting the whole lot and I could not get the link to work: -


"The full list of new routes being launched on 28 October includes Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; Aleppo, Syria; Almaty, Kazakhstan; Amman, Jordan; Ankara, Turkey; Baku, Azerbaijan; Beirut, Lebanon; Bishkek, Kyrgystan; Cairo, Egypt (4 November); Dakar, Senegal; Damascus, Syria; Ekaterinburg, Russia; Freetown, Sierra Leone; Khartoum, Sudan; Tbilisi, Georgia; Tehran, Iran; Yerevan, Armenia. Services to Amman and Beirut will be served by daily direct flights, an increase over the previous BA schedule"

Pete

[dumdumbrain]

I will ask my friend over at Tiny Town and see whats happening with BHX-MAD and send you a message, I did hear that some BHX-GLA may go via EMA in the winter. . . not sure how much truth is in this.

*I did see the 'Bye bye baby' aircraft over in dublin the other day :O which is banned from EMA

Lee

[ajamieson]

Well, at least in Lahore you get a nightstop...

[aeulad]

Several new routes ex-LHR to be announced in the next few months.

Regards

Mike

[North Stand Tier3]

The reason EMA has all the tech 737s is because whenever one goes tech elsewhere in the UK,it routes its way here and EMA send out a serviceable one.

I'll get me coat.......

[bmia330]

FAO North stand Teir 3

Thats exactly what happens!! Annoying for us all isnt it??

Don't worry about Dumdum, he just loves to have a snipe! :\

[aeulad]

List of potentials includes

Dammam
Kuwait
Minsk
Kiev
Lahore
Tel Aviv
Sanaa

Regards

Mike

[finding_nema]

baby's going to be around for a little while yet. The BHX base is doing really well, EMA is getting good load factors despite being an apparent basket case compared to Ryanair's ultra-efficiency and we should have more aircraft and routes on the way soon. There are always rumours circulating about buyouts and sell-offs, but I think that's more about people wanting the grass that's slightly less brown on the other side of the fence.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I heard today of BmiBaby pulling out of CWL next year, is there any truth in this rumour?

I know it was only a couple of months ago that Crawford Rix confessed that they had halted expansion at CWL in order to concentrate at BHX so it would be a suprise if they did pull out.

Cheers

[Get me some traffic]

BmiBaby are fickle when it comes to customer loyalty. Look what happened to MME. There is no way that they were losing money there, they just wanted more, quicker. Beware CWL.

[DTVAirport]

They were probably making a mint at MME, rumour is, they had a disagreement over landing fees and threw a paddy.

[finding_nema]

They stopped expanding at CWL and closed down the MME base for no other reason than to expand BHX. baby are getting a very cushy number there - good advertising deals, apparently very competitive landing fees and associated costs, as well as flybe being the major competitor who are coming out of a post-merger funk. baby could be very competitive if they had the investment in their fleet and their product. A good product, good slots and fabulous staff like myself (:hmm:) we could do ok.

[mmeteesside]

Anyone know what is up with the winter schedule on MME-LHR? Currently showing (on OAG and Amadeus) an A319 operating most flights (331/332/333/338/339/340) nightstopping at MME with an ERJ operating the 330/345 (daystopping 0735-2150 at MME!). Anyone any ideas why this is arranged like this? (The A319 departs at 0700 on the 331 so unless times are changed on this, it won't match with the 330 arrival?!)

[OltonPete]

The much rumoured Madrid has been announced giving BHX a very tight
winter schedule with its 6 based aircraft plus the EDI one routing through.

It also seems that more is promised despite the backward step on the BHX-EDI, the expected 5th daily rotation suddenly went from 4 to three a day on Monday - Thursday and only 2 today - more about that below.

Can anyone from baby advise or explain this weeks operations especially from BHX?

BHX in the morning has 7 departures with the 8th spare until 11.30 and
there is also a spare in the fleet all day (most days).

Work colleague on the ABZ this morning got cancelled and his day trip
ruined due tech aircraft. Okay this happens and he was not too worried
although he was a bit suspicious as only 6 pax went to the ticket desk and last night he had the whole aircraft to choose from (seat).

However a baby aircraft was inside one of the BHX hangars today and both mid afternoon EDI and GLA's were cancelled and there was still a
Titan operating as well.

Is there currently an aircraft under planned or emergency maintenance (other than the one in the hangar)?

September is normally a "heavy" business orientated month and not a great time to mess your business pax about or have routine maintenance either.

Has there been any unforeseen "incidents" etc?


Pete

[North Stand Tier3]

Not a good week for Baby (yet another one) - multiple a/c tech @ MAN,BHX,EMA. Rest assured,it has nothing to do with outsourcing of all major maintenance or component overhaul to the cheapest bidder.Glad that's cleared up.

[OltonPete]

North Stand Tier3
You know how to instill confidence in the flying public :eek:

Glad my next flight is not until March!

Could be worse, at least they do not have any Q400's ;).

It got better yesterday at BHX I believe, not sure about today though.

Pete

[finding_nema]

It's true. Since bmi laid off a lot of the hangar staff at EMA, most maintenance is now being outsourced to Tel Aviv, though I heard some might soon be being done in Eastern Europe. When the aircraft return from their checks out there, most of the time the bmi engineers are still coming back to give the aircraft a once over. The remaining bmi engineers were told they'd only have one bay in the hangar and deal with an occasional overnighter, but on some nights there are 3 Boeings in there and the occasional Airbus. The Boeings aren't going anywhere for some time though, the oldest aircraft in the fleet are only 15 years old and are holding the schedule together, just.

[ConstantFlyer]

Had the rare pleasure of a trip to Birmingham today. Owing to Eastern Airways' sky-high fares from Newcastle, had to go on the train, though :sad:.

In the middle of Birmingham, part of a square near the town hall has been turned into a beach in a big advertising stunt for bmi baby. Tons of sand, and rows of deckchairs. However, no-one in sight handing anything out like freebies or even timetables. No information about flights or destinations either. Seemed like a bit of a waste of time/space/marketing budget.

Rotten trains were heaving both ways. Wish there were some loco flights from BHX-NCL.

[OltonPete]

ConstantFlyer

NCL-BHX has already been mentioned in newspaper articles but in respect of flybe.

However as they have no Newcastle base yet I can't see it happening until then.

To maximise yield it would be best to operate an early morning inbound
from NCL to BHX rather than the other way round although Maersk/BEA
did operate it that way round before Eastern.

Twice a day Q400 might just cut the mustard but still a lot of seats to fill.

As for Baby doing it, not a prayer (I would hope).

Pete

[LHRKLBD]

The re-painting of the BMed a/c has began, G-MEDH and G-MEDK have already been completed.

[DTVAirport]

It's a poor hybrid livery, not the full bmi one.

[RhysD]

Here's a pic of the hybrid liveries on:

G-MEDH - http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=675750
G-MEDK - http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=676491

Not the best looking livery out there; hopefully they'll be in full livery as soon as possible!:)

[Endeavour]

G-MIDY went in for a repaint into the full bmi livery today. It then goes on heavy maintenance and will be reconfigured to medium haul config returning to service, late October.

It is significant as this is the first Airbus to be repainted from the old British Midland livery into the current bmi livery.

[DTVAirport]

Hang on, it's having a repaint THEN going into heavy maintenance where the paint will need to be stripped off again???

[Endeavour]

The repaint is at EMA, it then its goes to BUD for nearly three weeks of maintenance which includes replacing the landing gear. After eight years in service this is the 'heaviest' check which the aircraft is likely to have in its time with bmi. Needless to say they don't remove the new paint job!

[LHRKLBD]

Its the best the could be done with both sides of the fence.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Does anybody have a slight idea if BmiBaby will be offering any expansion in any of their bases next year (in exception of BHX)?

I know that there will be between 22 and 25 a/c planned for the company next year and with a bit of luck one or two of them could be going somewhere different than BHX.

Cheers in advance

:ok:

[ajamieson]

bmi will launch a daily London/Heathrow - Cairo flight from 28th October 2007. The flight will be operated using A320s with a similar business class as that used to Moscow.
Any word yet on whether this is still the case? Will CAI really be a Midland A320 converted into mid-haul config similar to G-MIDO or will it just be an ex-BMED aircraft?

[Endeavour]

CAI should be operated by G-MIDY in 128 seat mid haul config.

[747-436]

I would imagine they will use the ex BMED aircraft on the route as well.

The hybrid livery still looks a bit like a BA aircraft as they have kept the blue on the engines and underneath. All that seems to have come off is the BA logos.

[ladyflyby]

GMED-K went straight back into the hangar on Thursday because the interim 'paint' had peeled away to reveal the BA logo on the tail and on the front of the aircraft. It was highly embarassing to fly on it with such shoddy paintwork.

[747-436]

GMED-K went straight back into the hangar on Thursday because the interim 'paint' had peeled away to reveal the BA logo on the tail and on the front of the aircraft. It was highly embarassing to fly on it with such shoddy paintwork.

I did wonder why I saw a BMED A320 in the interim livery with bits of red on the tail the other day!!

[RhysD]

G-MEDF has received temporary bmi graphics, joining MEDH and MEDK in the interim scheme. Picture is visible on link below:

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=680530

[Max Angle]

Announced today on the company intranet that no more 330's are coming next year. Some rubbish about fleet commonality and no aircraft available to our spec. until 2009. Another lot of backtracking, hopeless yet again.

[Count von Altibar]

They're a bunch of manipulative idiots! Nigel thinks he fools people with these seemingly positive announcements and then massive backtracking a few months later. He's just Bishop's puppet and somewhere around the corner there'll be the end-game when SMB sells out and drifts off into retirement...

[babybaby]

Does anyone know if the new 321s are an additional 5 airframes to the present BMI BMED 319 320 321 total fleet count or have we been :ouch: there too? :(


babybaby :{

[BMEDFO]

The 321's are still on order. Just don't expect to see a proper long haul fleet any time soon!

The sad thing is the 321 was killing BMED off, tech stops for fuel THR-LON, stopping off in SVX en route to Almaty ( a route that KLM fills A A330 on). BMI have been given a gold mine- they just need the right tools to extract the gold.



:bored:

[wilbs]

"All that glisters..."

[Count von Altibar]

If there's one think that bmi are it's overly cautious when it comes to expanding and developing routes.

[akerosid]

See this from Flight:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/10/11/218121/pictures-bmi-upgrades-business-and-premium-economy-cabins.html

Looks very good, particularly the Premium J Class, but I can't help thinking that FI has confused some of the J and Premium Economy class seating photos; as nice as it would be, 2+2+2 and lie flat beds seems a bit much?

Possibly an error on FI's part. If not, someone give me the bmi reservations number!

[ajamieson]

No mistake, the Premium Economy seats are the old Business seats, making both cabins a great product. And yes, both 2+2+2.

[RAPC]

The article reads fine, but they have used incorrect photos for Premium Economy with one exception. The PE seats are the old business class seats. Massive amounts of space for PE, but certainly not flat beds!

[acbus1]

Turning from 'plane spotting and interior design to the bigger picture, can somebody please explain how they see the strategy as it stands at the moment?

I thought that part of the "Grand Plan" related to Open Skies, the challenge of healthy competition, the development of a profitable long haul operation etc. I guess that my interpretation was incorrect.

Have bmi not now abandoned ("delayed") such plans and simply taken on a loss-making concern and duplicated its operation? Such duplication will lead to a corresponding duplication of the losses, also, will it not? If that suggestion is an over-simplification, as I'm more than willing to concede, then what is the plan? Anybody know?

[Max Angle]

Much as I disagree with your opinions about bmi on some other threads you have got this about right I would say. If transatlantic out of LHR ever happens I will eat my hat. The few BMED routes that we could really clean up on are crying out for a larger, longer range aircraft, the 320/1 is just not up to the job. As the song says "there may be trouble ahead"

[ladyflyby]

BMEDFO, I couldn't agree more. Only last week I was grilling Nigel Turner about some of our popular routes (THR, AMM and BEY) and he said the A330 would definitely be used for them... how things can change in seven days! Hopefully operating KRT from BEY will see some extra revenue, but we shall see.

[lexxity]

What if he already knew about the "posponement" of the 330 order and was still sure that the 330's would be used?

[MAN Guy]

I'm interested to know where MAN stands at the moment and the future in terms of the A330's? Are we to assume that long haul at MAN wins a stay of execution with no immediate US routes announced from LHR to coincide with Open Skies? I know one school of thought was that ORD would remain from MAN but the Caribbean and Vegas routes might be under threat with Open Skies LHR ops.

Also might the existing A330's be used on the busier BMED routes from LHR?

Anybody got any more information at this stage???

[scudbus258]

Do you think Turner and the board changed their minds about the 330's because they just don't know whats going on or is this a well constructed plan. Why have a big hoo har about 5 new A/C that then never happens? Ofcourse things in this business change but in the space of a few weeks, just seems a little odd that the tune keeps changing!

[bhd-lonFLYer]

787 order maybe?!

[Mod Kit]

bmi leasing Icelandic 757-200 from October 13th - 16th. Why such a short lease and what maintenance is this covering for?

Thanks

[P Style]

I heard the icelandair is to cover the late return of the 330 out of reconfiguration due to the ending of the 767 damp lease.

[spanishflea]

Haven't they learned their lessons from last time they did this! :=

[keepitlit]

They only see the pound signs after all its run by an accountant.
Penny wise pound foolish

rgds

Keepitlit

[RAPC]

Not sure I fully understand the comment about pound signs and accountants. The A330 is late coming out of refit, so they needed a few days of cover with a different plane.

Sorry, but pretty much all airlines have to do this at some time or another, even BA with a much bigger fleet. bmi have a limited set of planes to shuffle around, so keeping it down to a few days of cover doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'm probably missing something here, so feel free to educate me if I am :ooh:

[mutualswap]

:ugh:no RAPC thats exactly how it is

[keepitlit]

The product that ice supply dose not get a good rep, just look at what happened when globespan got them in.
The point being they are probably the cheapest, which would be typical bmi form, isnt the best idea when your trying to make your mark in a business market.

regards

keepitlit

[Airbus215]

Believe me the reason that Iceland Air was brought in is not cost driven .....

At the current time availability of suitable A/C with the correct permits and permissions to operate the Saudi routes is very very limited .

Those carriers who had suitable aircraft didnt have the corerct permissions to operate to saudi , and other carriers who did have correct permissions diddnt have aircraft available.

Many man hours were spent trying to source coverage for the late A330 both in house and externally.

not quite as easy as you might think !

[Halfwayback]

And the comments from the passengers to KSA - and staff in country - have been extremely complimentary about the flight crews!

HWB

[OltonPete]

Any truth in the rumour (from another forum) that five ex Easyjet now Virgin Nigeria 733's have been sourced?

The aircraft mentioned are all 1999 build and fits the rumours that
they were currently after 1998 or 1999 builds.

I think that one other has also been sourced making six in total
of the rumoured 8 for next summer.

Are all the 500's leaving the fleet this winter (ZH gone already) or
just the older ones?

Pete

[dumdumbrain]

a/c ten years old, thats just shocking, what about the green issue, esp if any of these are going to EMA, and we all know how much EMA is trying to go green

Lee

[Little Blue]

You are joking, aren't u Lee?

[MonkeyB]

Are CWL going to see any of these new babies?

MB

[OltonPete]

Apparently e-mails have been sent stating that the summer 2008 routes will be released on 20 November but not sure if that is just BHX.

I have not got mine yet.

I would imagine Manchester would get their 4th one back and BHX its
8th as per this summer but if they have sourced more aircraft I don't
think 9 or 10 at BHX is unrealistic.

Pete

[MonkeyB]

I thought that some routes are going on sle this week with more to follow.

MB

[Scottie Dog]

IATA scheduling conference is 10th-13th November. To announce schedules before you are sure of your slots might be dangerous!

28th November therefore sounds like a sensible date for Summer 08 to be put on sale.

[OltonPete]

MonkeyB

You could be right and my source as well!

BHX last year saw two releases one on 3/11/06 and the 2nd on 23/11/06.

FAO, GLA & Murcia (March starts) followed by Jersey, Marseille Lisbon and Rome (May starts).

I suppose it will depend on slots and if any "new" (in inverted comma's for Lee ;)) arriving after March.

Pete

[bmibaby.com]

Very few airlines begin immediately with brand new aircraft, and for an airline that is only five years old, bmibaby has grown from 2 surplus mainline aircraft and an occasionally borrowed Fokker, to an airline in our own right, with our own AOC, management team and a fleet varying between 18 - 21 aircraft. They may not be the newest, and this summer has resulted in some long delays and challenging introductions to the fleet, but an average age of 11 years is certainly not ancient, especially given some or Ryanair's first 737-800s were introduced at the end of the 90s, and it was only until recently the 737-200 was a regular fixture in the fleet. baby will never be the size or have the financial ability of airlines like Ryanair, but we fill a niche. Nothing is stopping another airline buying us out, and it's one of many rumours going on right now, but in the meantime we're trundling along and doing the best we can with our resources.

[6chimes]

Hi bmi.baby.

Whilst I agree with you on many points, you will have to agree that baby was not a new airline start up. Baby was started by all the 737's we had in LHR being re painted and sent to EMA. They didn't have to be bought or found. Midland did not have to spend a penny to get baby off the ground, in fact for many years mainline picked up the bill for baby in every area until star found out.

6

[North Stand Tier3]

Not sure about these 5 ex EZY 733s.Next year,as it stands now, it'll be an ex Italian one and another from the Pacific in service by mid-summer.A/C need to be sourced and 'C' checked as part of most handback deals which takes time to arrange and complete.733s getting difficult to source.

ZG and ZI next to follow ZH to Russia over the coming months - you can do the maths

Right,I'll get me coat..............................

[acbus1]

...you will have to agree that baby was not a new airline start up. Baby was started by all the 737's we had in LHR being re painted and sent to EMA. They didn't have to be bought or found.
I can't let that subject pass without comment. It's important not to forget to mention the human cost, which was the most disgusting aspect of the whole manipulated sham.

It was a case of "Your existing job no longer exists, but you might be accepted (if you say please) for a job which is exactly the same as your old job, but with a "totally new, totally separate" company, on less pay with worse conditions."

The other "choices", depending upon your job, were redundancy or move to Heathrow.

Nice treatment.

Not.

Observing these goings on from the safety of Heathrow, I was shocked by this treatment and even more shocked by the disinterest shown by colleagues at other bases and lack of resistance fron BALPA and cabin crew union. In fact, some pilots were gleefully crossing more senior baby-bound people off the seniority list! Human nature, eh!

Well, when (not if) the whole mess is taken over, you'd all better start worrying about your jobs. bmi/BMED discussions such as these will pale in comparison.

[Count von Altibar]

I see ze germans seem to be interested mainly in SMB majority stake rather than the soon available SAS 20% according to Bloomberg. I can see their logic though as what's the point in further investment unless it's a controlling share that's achieved?

My manservant 'Lurch' has kindly provided the following link for those who want to read it for themselves...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...&refer=germany

Best regards,

The Count

[OliWW]

With G-BVZH gone now, and with G-BVZG, G-BVZI going soon as well as the others, what are they replacing them with :S

They only seem to have 1 aircraft on order for next year at the current time, what are the plans

?

[6chimes]

acbus,

Your'e quite right, shoddy tactics were and still are common place when the management want to do something, they will do it with no thought for the 'human' element.

We had are chances long ago to stand up and say 'NO' but we didn't. So who is to blame? I think we must all share blame in our current situation. They think we are weak and in many ways we are, mainly, I believe because we are a workforce that is seperated. If we all worked the same hours under the same roof things would never have gone on for so long. This is true of most airlines and is why our jobs enjoy little of the regulations that most industry's have. ........... When did you last work a 37 hr week?

6

[bmibaby.com]

baby were always reducing our fleet to 18 from 21 over the winter period, allowing us to get rid of the older 735s. I think there are 2 733s coming from Air One and another from Varig next summer bringing the fleet back up to 21. I wasn't aware we were getting aircraft from Virgin Nigeria, though they seem quite new, just hopefully they don't have the quirks of the ones from Saudi!

[North Stand Tier3]

As said before,definitely only one from Air One and one from a little island in the Pacific (complete with VIPs no doubt) coming next year.

Right,I'll get me coat.......................

[lexxity]

Count, could you cut and paste please because you have to register to use that site, ta.

[Count von Altibar]

Sorry Lex, obviously my manservant Lurch has made a mistake with his weblink. After severe punishment, he tells me you can find it by typing ' bmi lufthansa ' into google and then selecting news which will give a selection of articles.

Hope this helps,

The Count

[acbus1]

6chimes

acbus,

Your'e quite right, shoddy tactics were and still are common place when the management want to do something, they will do it with no thought for the 'human' element.

We had are chances long ago to stand up and say 'NO' but we didn't. So who is to blame?

Spot on analysis of the problems, but who is to blame, you ask?

The blame falls squarely upon BALPA. The purpose of any Union is to....well, would you believe it....unify!

Beyond activities within BA, BALPA have failed miserably time and time again.

Off topic? You wait and see!

[aeulad]

Dammam(DMM), Saudi Arabia confirmed.

3 times weekly on A321/A320 via an as yet undisclosed stop.

Starting first Quarter of 2008.

Regards

Mike

[flyingfrog]

Not sure where your info on 320/321 operating the route via somewhere's from, flybmi.com details the route and aircraft!

• schedule (services operate via Riyadh)
depart Heathrow 11:30, arrive Dammam 22:35 (Mon, Weds, Sat)

depart Dammam 00:01, arrive Heathrow 05:55 (Tues, Thurs)
depart Dammam 00:50, arrive Heathrow 06:45 (Sun)

• the service will be operated by an Airbus A330, with 42 business seats and 156 economy seats.

[OliWW]

So bmibaby have new routes to

Birmingham - Krakow
Glasgow - Knock

as part of there "big baby" expansion
what other routes will they be bring then? Would be nice to see more at East Midlands and Cardiff... and Manchester has just been forgotten about...

[dumdumbrain]

I wonder which one will close next year? ? ? ? GLA-NOC how long till PIK-NOC? Is it really a good idea taking on Ryanair, to make it even worst its an Irish route, fools :=

[Little Blue]

Lee...
You should know better than to wind up this board !!!
I applaud our management for really making a go of the winter programme.
Ryanair are not the be all and end all of the european market, THANK GOD !

[chrism20]

NOC is not a new destination for baby, they have operated from MAN & BHX for a while now without FR's bullying tactics.

However I wouldn't be surprised if FR were to launch something in response.

[Ringwayman]

Not forgetting that bmibaby offer Cork as well with no hint of Ryanair launching a route to MAN - all there is is the EI service.

As for futher MAN expansion, it might be a case of wait and see what easyJet decide to do. If nothing happens on the orange front (quite likely) then perhaps some odd routes might be started ("odd" as in Riga,Tallinn and Bergen, all perhaps 2 weekly. Perhaps Jerez might be easier for them to make a profit on given a smaller aircraft than Monarch; Madrid is also a reasonable option)

[Dazzle]

Jerez seems a good option for someone given that there are currently no flights there from the north of England.

The Monarch flights always seemed quite well used to me and with the expansion of Jerez airport underway together with the regional government's determination to attract more tourists to the area, it might be one for the future.

[Qatari515]

Does any of you guys know who the aviation miracle is, supposedly coming from B-Med, who will join Qatar Airways as Chief Pilot Training?

He is supposed to be not too old, UK CAA TRE but not that much experience, coming from Bmed....

Thats all we know...


Any info is appreciated.

[bmibaby.com]

Interesting to read that flybe have managed to turn a profit this year, and that the airline is in a strong enough financial situation and with an order backlog to consider further acquisitions. Can't imagine with our clapped out Boeings or with the combined airline at BHX/MAN that the competition authorities would allow it, but a flybe/baby merger might be quite something. :ugh: Unrelated-ish of course, is there still any news on regional possibly getting the Q400? I also heard a sneaky rumour that regional might start operating more flights into Germany from UK regional airports a la KLM Cityhopper or Air France CityJet.

[Hudson Bay]

No way would Flybe ever take over bmi, Regional or Baby. They don't have the backing the inclination or the know how. Besides that Sir mick would never ever sell.

I can't believe your debating such an issue.

[OliWW]

Regarding bmibaby's fleet for next year, some discussion about 3 aircraft or 2 coming from Air One

On another website it gives information about 2 of them coming from Xiamen Airlines,

is this true or are they still coming from Air One?

Where will they be based?

[aidoair]

The ''new'' aircraft (737-300) are to replace three older 737-500 aircraft. A further two 737-300 aircraft has been rumoured to join the fleet later in the year next year or by the winter.

[North Stand Tier3]

Only one fom Air One,other from the Pacific-expect them by height of Summer.Still looking but nothing confirmed yet.ZH gone(due at EMA for handback From Saturday),ZG about to go,ZI to follow in New Year.

You ain't seen me........right......

[OliWW]

bmibaby quoted on the 8th November

More routes to be announced shortly





Where are these new routes and where are they too?

any info people?

[dumdumbrain]

Delayed :E

more eastern european please

[OliWW]

Not sure why they are looking at eastern europe like Poland, that is already now well vacated for at UK airports they operate from...

East Mids - Venice could be a good move for bmibaby, climbing on easyjet...

something like that

[dumdumbrain]

Not sure bout Venice, SVQ be better, why fight with another airline for no reason. Loads of possible new routes from EMA, Malta?

[OliWW]

Some how i doubt very much bmibaby will be sending there old B733's out to Malta every week...

and Ryanair will most likely move in that direction anyway, the same wiv SVQ


Baby used to operate Nice... not here anymore...
and Munich, German routes are needed!

[OltonPete]

I bet today's flybe announcement at Cardiff has given them something
to think about :).

I am sure BHX could find a home for a couple more 733's ;) or MAN for
that matter.

Pete

[a1234]

I was always under the impression that baby made a good yield at Cardiff, especially on the bucket and spade routes...granted this is something 'ive heard' but it would be a surprise to see baby leave Cardiff thats for sure.

Thye've already announced the Polish routes from here so I'm pretty sure they are gonna stay. Anyone who can shed more light on this?

[FlyboyUK]

Announced today:

Birmingham - (Milan) Bergamo & East Midlands - Nice

Along with the summer return of Bordeaux and Perpignan from Manchester and Bordeaux & Marseille from Birmingham.

More routes will be announced shortly:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

can anybody in the know, shed any light on any extra routes from CWL?

[LHRKLBD]

Cardiff to Gdansk and Warsaw.

[mathers_wales_uk]

i meant further routes as there is a phase 2 announcement due for the regions soon, just wondering if there is anything else due for CWL other than the GDN and WAW?

Noticed GVA has got good booking figure from CWL

[OliWW]

I doubt that bmibaby will concentrate on Cardiff now,

Flybe clearly want in on Cardiff, and im not 100% sure if bmibaby would take on a fight,

East Midlands or Birmingham seem to be the better choices at the moment,

But where could the new routes be from these bases?

[Smile!!!]

Well flybe only is doing domestic routes (Granted every domestic route baby does). There is still a large foreign operation for baby to grow, and expand. There are really though, only a few more viable outes they could operate, BCN comes to mind, and one or two others.

Noticed GVA has got good booking figure from CWLNot suprised, all the TV adverts they have had on ITV recently, good market there, but I wonder how much all those adverts cost?

Edit to add-

BMIBABY insisted today that it was ready for a flights war with rivals Flybe – and were confident passengers in South Wales would stick with the airline.

“We’re 30 per cent cheaper than Flybe, operate jet airliners and provide good quality and reliable service. Why would people want to pay high fares?” declared commercial director David Hodge.

He was reacting after Flybe announced earlier this week that it was starting services to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle from March 30 offering greater frequency but using smaller capacity aircraft than bmibaby.

Flybe also has plans to expand in 2009 to provide services to Brussels and French provincial cities.

Mr Hodge said: “I had a little chuckle when I read the Echo about Flybe’s plans to come in with these services. Our fares start at £18.99, compared to £24.99.

“We’ve been a big success story for South Wales, bringing jobs in support services as well as indirectly at the airport.

“Flybe is basing its aircraft in Glasgow and Edinburgh, not adding any value to South Wales.

“We’re the big boys with 13 destinations and 2.5 million passengers have taken advantage of our low-cost services since we came into Cardiff in 2002. We will have a little bit of a battle but we don’t see them as competition. They haven’t been at Birmingham where we have a good track record.

“I’m confident our South Wales customers will stick with us.”

Source-
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/11/30/passengers-will-stick-with-us-says-bmibaby-91466-20180775/

[OltonPete]

Smile

Interesting to see Birmingham quoted in the article, one thinks a little bit
of spin.

Although the CAA stats do not separate each airlines market share there
is some evidence to show that flybe have in fact held their own on the
BHX - EDI, GLA and ABZ. Not too sure about Belfast as some of last years figures included the ill-fated BACON route which distorted matters.

However during summer 2007 baby had four EDI's a day in the week,
a double daily Aberdeen (in the week) and three a day Glasgow.

In September EDI was due to go five a day and GLA four a day but this
did not happen. In fact EDI dropped to three a day and from October
Aberdeen went from 12 a week to 10 and drops to 9 next March.

Next summer EDI remains three, GLA the same and they both drop
to two a day mid July for high summer (extra Malaga's).

This could be part due to better use of aircraft but you know that they
were never going let loads of 15 -30 go on for two long on certain flights.

flybe seem to have maintained their load factors and in fact are increasing Aberdeen with the Q400 operating the last outbound from April and a forth flight on a Monday and Friday.

It will all depend if the market can support all these seats, at BHX it could not and I have not been surprised at what has happened. I picked up an EDI flight on 1/8/07 for a family of four, cost £105 all in with ten days notice (the aircraft had about 85 out and 60 in).

That alone explains that something had to give and I fear the worst at Cardiff in the long run. Perhaps EDI might be able to take the competition but Glasgow and Belfast at once a day must be in danger.

Pete

[OliWW]

So with international routes most likely being the way around it, could they expect routes like

Barcelona
Madrid
Rome

what about a few french routes... Bordeaux or Perpignan

[a1234]

Next summers timetable at CWL show plenty of gaps for baby. They could easily slot in a few more sun and sand routes.

Absolutely stunned that they didn't take on Nice or Barcelona from Cardiff, they would be pretty popular and fit into the plan for CWL to be its 'bucket and spade base'.

As for baby in the long run, if they don't fight back at CWL then flybe will inevitably push them out. Baby have been pretty flaky for the past year now and you can tell they aren't too keen on the place anymore. Plus at EMA you can envisage Ryr squeezing baby off a few more routes like they are doing with Belfast. And frankly if EZY then move into BHX where will they stand then?

[DTVAirport]

I've just been told bmi have cut their A332 order from 5 to 1, anyone have any details?

Gutted if true. :mad:

[LHRKLBD]

If anything is likely to happen with the A332 is, probably likely we will never see any new A330 untill LH take over. If i'm honest i will be surprised if we get that A321 that is due in the spring.

[Hotel Uniform Yankee]

Does anyone know if the acquisition of 4 more erj145's announced early this year is still going ahead?

[lexoncd]

Recent news is that they're cancelled. Regional need to look where they can go next. ABZ -MAN and EDI -MAN took capacity from failed routes. LBA - LIL and ABZ - KRS no thanks to BA/FLY BE who cancelled their services to ABZ.

The fuel cost on the E145 must impact but the product for the higher yield passenger i.e business who wants a lounge and easy flexibility is far superior to FLY BE.

Stuart Adams is a sound guy who knows his stuff. I hope they prosper.

[junglie-driver]

Anybody have any information about BMI getting 757/767 as an interim for the Bmed routes? JD

[SAM-EMA]

Why do they need extra aircraft?

The rumoured new routes from BD Regional from EMA would be good expansion from Regional. Aberdeen, Zurich etc. (as previously mentioned).

SAM-EMA

[bmibaby.com]

Regarding the possibility of adding the 757/767;

http://www.atwonline.com/news/other....12%2F24%2F2007

Bmi is looking for additional capacity, possibly 757s or 767-200s, to support growth on several former BMED routes, Chairman Michael Bishop told ATWOnline at the recent Star Alliance meeting in Beijing. "We are looking for interim aircraft to improve the competitive element of our operation to certain destinations, which I can't disclose at the moment. But I can say that three of the routes that we inherited [from former British Airways franchise operator BMED] look to us as if they are capable of almost immediate development and expansion into bigger aircraft," he said.
He added that bmi wants to introduce nonstop services on these three routes, prompting the need for "aircraft with longer legs." The former BMED routes currently are operated with A321s.

Bmi also is planning new routes for its mid-haul network "that will take us further distances away," according to Bishop. "Those will either come into the A330s at some stage in the future or in the immediate future we may be looking for some kind of interim lift to satisfy the demand." Bmi has five additional A330s on order with the first new aircraft expected to be delivered early next year (ATWOnline, July 11).

The interim lift could be provided by either a 757 or a 767-200 despite the fact that bmi's mainline operation is streamlined around an all-Airbus fleet. "Well, you have to adapt to change," Bishop conceded. "We're looking for something in the middle there [between A321s and A330s] to give us more range and more capacity. Besides, we [bmibaby] operate 737s."


Regarding 2nd based a/c and new routes from regional at EMA, apparently word on the grapevine is that due to suitable 2nd-hand Embraers on the market this has been postponed for other more lucrative markets.

[junglie-driver]

Thats what I was going to say! Have a little too much time on my hands so I'm flicking through all publications and looking into my little crystal ball. JD

[Richard Taylor]

Will the same fate befall LHRABZ, LHRMME?

INV axed due to "insufficient demand" plus LHR costs.

[LHRKLBD]

Route update for the summer for LHR:

Extra late night MAN
Second Daily DME

INV - Dropped
NCE / ALC Dropped for S08

What are you thoughts on this ?

[WHBM]

Have used the Inverness service a couple of times recently as office is close to Heathrow.

Nuisance for business travel that it was only once a day, means you need to waste a night away. It's a real nuisance to get over to FlyBe at Gatwick as well, but that is the only operation with morning and evening. If Easy moved to such an schedule from Luton FlyBe would feel it.

Never a worthwhile load, 40-50 at max. On one occasion an-ex BMed A320 was substituted. Nobody allowed in the (surprisingly sizeable) C class cabin at the front, thus for weight & balance nobody at the rear either, so we were all squashed 6-across into a few rows abeam the CofG.

You can't believe it has been dropped "due to Heathrow costs". BMI have been the second largest operator there for many years; it's not as if Route Planning didn't know perfectly well what the costs are. They just haven't got the loads/yield they predicted.

Speaking of the Route Planning team, is the man who thought up Leeds-Lille feeling better yet ? :)

[Skipness One Echo]

In all honesty I'm sure they were just sitting on the slot with Inverness. No intention to try and run the route at times convenient to business and not enough yield on the seasonal tourist markets. This would no be news to BMI and we shouldn't be surprised.
I fully expect MME, ABZ and possibly LBA to go as well.

[brian_dromey]

For DME is another A320 going to be reconfigured, or will an ex BMED a/c be used? Good to see BD taking a serious approach to their mid-haul markets.
As for routes cut to make way for mid-haul, I would expect AMS and BRU to face the axe with the improved Eurostar from St. Pancras, just as CDG was unceremoniously dumped. Hopefully BD will find some decent 762/752s for their medium-haul network. Easier said than done though....return of teh ArkeFly 767?
Brian.

[Endeavour]

The same aircraft will be able to operate both DME rotations :)

[OliWW]

some talk about regional expanding at ema... just looking at the cologne timetable

its departure on a weekday is at 10.15
the Brussels flight doesnt schedule to land till 10


surely they cant get a E145 in and out in 15mins...

do you think this is a indication for some more routes?

some german routes could fit into the morning rotation nicely...

[darren1]

Are the VCE and PMI routes safe?

[liquid sunshine]

Still hear rumblings of Regional looking at Southampton with 2 x E145. Anybody able to shed any light on this.

[jerboy]

For DME is another A320 going to be reconfigured, or will an ex BMED a/c be used? Good to see BD taking a serious approach to their mid-haul markets.

I think I'm correct in saying a second aircraft has been modified to the 6 row 2-2 config that G-MIDO has. (I think its G-MIDT).

G-MIDO has been used on the late LHR-JER-LHR for most rotations over the past few months, after the DME-LHR sector. Hardly a mid-haul route but its kept the few business pax happy!

[LHRKLBD]

G-MIDT / G-MIDY - have a config of 20/102
G-MIDO has a config of 24/102

[747-436]

I think they have had to drop these routes as the slots that came from BMED start to be transfered over to BA later this year. Which means they need slots to fit the old BMED routes in, hence dropping some routes to make space.

[Endeavour]

By not operating a daily service to ALC, INV and NCE, slots are released for the second DME, the extra MAN and TLV.

Out of interest G-MIDO is due to be reconfigured during its hangar input in February, so that it will be in the same config as DT and DY.

[airhumberside]

The extra evening MAN flight is a direct replacement for an evening LBA rotation
The INV slot, with a lot of retiming of other flights no doubt provides for the second DME
ALC and NCE do not operate in winter, so while bmi have a couple of extra slots next summer compared to S07, were these slots used for something else year round this winter?

[Flightrider]

All former BMed slots stay on BMed routes for Summer 2008.

The late-night LBA is replaced by a late-night MAN which is probably not the worst idea in the world given that the LBA was within about 20 minutes of another flight on the route and BA's last flight of the day from LHR to MAN this summer is actually relatively early at 19:40, so a late one might actually pick up any passengers needing that service.

The TLV and extra DME replace the INV and NCE. The Alicante service never had any slots allocated to it anyway for S08 as they had long since been robbed.

[ajamieson]

Out of interest G-MIDO is due to be reconfigured during its hangar input in February, so that it will be in the same config as DT and DY.
Seems a lot of hassle for the sake of four seats.

I assume DT and DY share CAI and (eventually) TLV?

[darren1]

What plans might BMI Reg have for the two E145's at SOU?

AMS never got started...like many BMI ideas, LTN-BRU for example.

[Endeavour]

G-MIDV operated its last schedule for bmi when it landed from BHD last Saturday.

It is significant in that it was the aircraft that launched the new name and livery and is the first bmi liveried Airbus to leave the fleet.

[ajamieson]

So what's replacing DV then? Another 319? :confused:

[Endeavour]

No plans for any more A319s at the moment, just one A321.

planned mainline fleet changes over the coming months are:

G-MIDU retires - Feb

G-MEDN delivery - May

[OltonPete]

Endeavour

A surprise to see the 320's going, do you know if it was ever considered
to renew the leases (assuming they were not owned) and pass them on
to Baby for a phased fleet renewal?

I must admit the 320 is a lot of seats to fill but with the alleged lack of
decent second hand 733's, the 735's slowly departing it would have been
a good opportunity or were the leases too expensive for Baby's purposes?

Pete