Navigation Training Today - Instructors

[victor two]

A quick question for some of you Nav instructors out there.

When I did my private and commercial nav training back in the early nineties it was rare to see any form of GPS equipment in a GA aircraft either handheld of otherwise. A few handhelds were starting to appear on the scene but our nav training as such was pure DR based on maps with lines drawn on them, compass, time, ground speed checks based on visual fixes and whiz wheels etc etc. Without a doubt I am a better map reader due to the fact I never had a GPS until well into my commercial flying days.

How much of a role does GPS play in modern instruction? Is it common now to see students heading off on Nav number 3 with a GPS on their lap or are the basic principles still taught and enforced without students having a GPS to help out?

[Awol57]

Whilst I was teaching I generally didn't even mention the GPS until after the first solo nav. I introduced it at a basic level after that, but as a general rule it would be off most of the flight.

I told most of my students its a useful tool, once they had their license we could look at them more in depth. I wanted them to rely on heading and time as you won't always be in an aircraft that has a GPS and letting them use it too early tends to develop a reliance on these sort of things.

Just my opinion though.

[poteroo]

Day VFR Syllabus, p56, 12.8 Use Radio Navigation Aids PPL

GPS is sensibly included here, along with ADF,VOR & DME.

Which is bringing the nav training into this century - at last ! The last 5 privately owned aircraft that I've used for flight reviews have all been fitted with ADF - but all of them were u/s. This seems to be a trend. At least their portable GPS's were going.

Of course you don't allow unlimited use of any navaids - the basics will always come 1st, but it instils some fundamentals into the PPL for when they do lauch off into the wild blue with a navaid equipped aircraft.

happy days,

[TwoHundred]

I guess it should be treated like any other navaid. That is first of all the student must have a thorough grasp of the fundimentals of navigation, map reading, log keeping DR nav etc, then be introduced to navigating using aids, including GPS.

We are definately spoiled these days, thats for sure, there is never any question of ones location. Although i always like to tune & monitor ground based aids wherever i can just to make sure, or a visual fix if you can.

But like all things electronic, a little water in the wrong place and its back to blowing the dust off those WAC charts, pulling the pencil and ruler out and drawing a line on the map and going back to the basics.

Perish the thought of a student heading out on Nav 3 relying solely on Gps. perhaps some current stuents could answer.

Cheers

200

[das Uber Soldat]

Whilst I agree that students should be instructed on the use of GPS (and I use it myself in the right seat when students are navigating properly to allow myself more capacity to monitor and teach them), I do not allow my students to use it on any PPL & CPL exercises.

Im a firm believer in the navigation techniques of old. You never know when that GPS is going to fail, and if you do not have a very solid grounding in the fundamentals, you're going to struggle. Most students unless they do alot of excess training simply dont grasp the fundamentals sufficiently early enough to allow extra training in regards to things like GPS.

my opinion only.

[Launchpad McQuack]

I'm a recent wannabe and we only went through the theory basics for our IFR, there was never really any GPS involvement in our training.

I agree with the above regarding the fundamentals of navigation, they should be learned well before relying on GPS/GNSS. Having said this, more than a few CPL students discretely took Dad's/their hand-held unit away on solo XCs :E

Personally I still haven't a clue how to use a GPS/GNSS unit yet :uhoh:

[What time is ECT?]

NO.

On one of my cross countries, I was given a route to plan for, and then satisfied that there was abundant fuel in the tanks, was then instructed to navigate the course using only the lines on the map.

This form of navigation ensured that I was having a good lookout, correctly identifying landmarks by "proving" what I saw was actually what I was expecting. Plus it's a whole lot of fun - and less stress than following a compass heading within 2 degrees.

Yesterday I flew into NZAA. And later on to NZAR. They both look very similar on a early model GPS (the A and the R). If it wasn't for proper map reading skills and cross checking, I would have busted into Auckland or flown too close to terrain after selecting the wrong waypoint.

Lesson: don't get lazy and rely purely on GPS.

ECT?

[Bevan666]

Geez isnt navigation in NZ just choosing whether you want to go north or south, and what side you want to keep the water on.?
:E

[mattyj]

took you a long time to get a start clearance ECT..couldn't get a word in edgeways on delivery huh? Or were you dribbling over those GVs?:E :E

Don't worry about the small plane buddy..its only a matter of time before youre flying the heavy metal:ok:

[strim]

Long time reader, first post...

Firm believer in developing strong DR Nav skills before being introduced to aids.

GPS is a very powerful tool, but can easily fail - something I drill into my students. I encourage them on CPL navs to use ALL aircraft systems including GPS, Autopilot etc, but will often 'fail' them at opportune times. It is also important to explain to a student every page of the GPS so they can use all the functions to their advantage, not just 'Go-To'.

Students should also be briefed on RAIM - what it is, what it means etc.

Cheers

[LocoDriver]

BEVAN666,
we actually have thingys called mountains in this country, lots of them.
There are over 30 peaks in the South island over 9,000ft amsl.
(I cant remember the exact number) They also attract clouds and precipitation, which can make navigation hardardous!:(

Students must be taught the basics, how to do mental calculations etc, these things they will still be doing to pass IFR flight tests.
The GPS is great device, but always remember the basics.

MATTYJ
so, ECT? had a wait for a start clearance? fancy that!
You will have a very long wait for a start clearance with your current
peice of machinery.:E :E
By the way, we have also had several airspace busts around Auckland in the last few months........... guess what? GPS in a couple of cases was to blame.
SO, keep looking out da window, and reading da (up to date) chart!

:ok: :ok:

[kiwiblue]

busted into Auckland or flown too close to terrain after selecting the wrong waypoint

Hmmm... so the GPS wasn't the problem; finger-trouble was though? More care necessary methinks. TUNE/IDENT/NAV still works with a GPS -you just need to be switched on to it. And just like your maps, your GPS database needs to be updated periodically so that it does reflect current operational limitations correctly. Once again an operator error, not the GPS. It's only doing what it's told with the best information it has available -information You, the operator provide!!!

What I'm saying is: it's inappropriate to blame the instrument when we as operators fail to check our inputs, or operate with out-of-date databases. The instrument is not to blame for errors -we are! Quite simply put we have a tremendous resource at our disposal in GPS. It'll take us where we tell it to. These 'failures' we are seeing/hearing about are almost in every case related to the operator inputs, or lack thereof. We need to lift our game, check and cross-check all GPS information before it is used operationally.

[Orographic]

I would have to suspect the greatest weakness as well as the greatest strength of a GPS like system is ease-of-use

While its ease of use could be a godsend when you have other things that need your attention immediatly, it would be all too easy to become lazy about it

I mean, if the opperturnity was there, who would not want to just key in a few waypoints and then not have to realy think about where they are.. i mean, it tells you right there on the screen.

I guess, like any other instrument, it would require constant check and verify. they are useful tools, but getting lazy and assuming they are always right can kill .. and that is a discipline that requires work

[What time is ECT?]

took you a long time to get a start clearance ECT..couldn't get a word in edgeways on delivery huh? Or were you dribbling over those GVs?:E :E
Don't worry about the small plane buddy..its only a matter of time before youre flying the heavy metal:ok:

Ha ha, I had to finish the delicious coffee so I wouldn't spill any - y' know, don't drink and drive.

kiwiblue I thoroughly agree. And I have to take full responsibility. Good thing I don't fully trust my ability on GPS, and use the eyeball as a primary nav tool.

IFR = I Follow Railways
ECT?

[4SPOOLED]

Never used a GPS in my training even though the aircraft were fitted with them. The instructor used them, but not me the student. All my Nav training was conducted with DR nav and 1 in 60's using the CR2 to flight plan.

Didnt use a GPS till first job and i still use GPS only as a guide, still carry maps and navigate holding a heading and position fixing. Best thing though about GPS is you can keep climbing until you find a tail wind, so save the boss some money and if you have to divert due weather its a much quicker safer way to get going.

Never rely on it though, its just an aid to your VFR nav skills.

4S

[areal]

Instructors generally teach the use of ADF/VOR with reference to tune/identify/test but when it comes to GPS there is nothing similar that is tought universally. Instructors themselves often need to be tought how to use a GPS themselves so they can then teach it.:eek:

If you do a flight plan the conventional way using map, ruler and set square, and then program the GPS cross referencing the tracks and distances of each leg on the flight plan, you will find the GPS to be more reliable than any other form of nav. If you divert in flight using the GPS, you must check the Lat/Longs of any waypoint you divert to. This i most inportant in GA aircraft as theyn often have GPS whose waypoints can be altered by the user.

Having said all that, it is good to see instructors are still teaching map reading as it is an essential skill to have when all else fails.(Provided you have your WAC with you!):{

[Kickatinalong]

Long time reader, first post...
Firm believer in developing strong DR Nav skills before being introduced to aids.
GPS is a very powerful tool, but can easily fail - something I drill into my students. I encourage them on CPL navs to use ALL aircraft systems including GPS, Autopilot etc, but will often 'fail' them at opportune times. It is also important to explain to a student every page of the GPS so they can use all the functions to their advantage, not just 'Go-To'.
Students should also be briefed on RAIM - what it is, what it means etc.
Cheers
I agree totally, Great Tool if used correctly, BUT you don't know when the bloody Instructor will fail the equipment (ha1 ha1) we have to have some fun too. Where are the other buttons, other than dct? ask your student what they are for.
Kickatinalong

[areal]

Failing the GPS is a good way to teach students but if you can, get them to go DTO (or GOTO) a particular waypoint the location of which you have prevously changed. See if they check the latitude and longitude of the waypoint or the track and distance it gives against the WAC or if they just blindly follow the GPS track. When they get there then see what they do, good lesson me thinks.

[Richo]

The CASA test form, requires that the candidate is capable of operating ALL of the operational equipment fitted to the aircraft.

I agree that basic (DR) nav skills will and are declining as more automation is creeping into the cockpit.

However ALL navigation skills need to be taught to and learnt by the students.

The emphasis of most instructors will always be on the basics (fall back skills) but the instructors job is to teach ALL the required skills to do the job. Nowdays the average light twin and big singles are equiped with TSO'd GPS or GPS/COMM/NAV units, the larger trbo props (Metros aside) are standard fitted with GNSS/RNAV capable units with system intergration (FMS or AIR data Computers). One of the main tasks of the Training captains nowdays is teaching the CORRECT use of such systems. With the modern light singles now coming out of the factory or retofitted equipment available for hire and training, this type of training should be done at the PPL/COMM NAV stages.

As one poster pointed out that it is easy to make a mistake with button pushing and or data entry, it is TRAINING at the appropriate stages that will reduce this error and improve safety.

richo