R22 Crash Stockport

[PENNINE BOY]

Just watched Granada News North West.

Just shown a R22 that had crashed in Stockport, the heli was on its side on a snow covered field.

Both occupants were ok!

[cyclic flare]

I saw the picture on TV. Massive coning on the blades low RRPM. Maximum 70% RRPM on landing very luckly, No doubt pilot error

[rattle]

Only two posts, and the speculating and blame has begun. Very disappointing.

[wg13_dummy]

I saw the picture on TV. Massive coning on the blades low RRPM. Maximum 70% RRPM on landing very luckly, No doubt pilot error


You should offer your services to the AAIB. I'm sure they'd pay you a fortune for your brilliant skills.


Chiseller.

[cyclic flare]

Dummy,

Curved blades with ripples low rrpm pilot error end of of story

[Practice Auto 3,2,1]

No, not end of story. That will be decided by the AAIB.

....Unless you were the pilot?

[wg13_dummy]

Dummy,
Curved blades with ripples low rrpm pilot error end of of story
It may well be pilot error but youre just guessing aren't you?
Can you cast your expert eye on this and let us know the cause. We're still unsure;
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1138530/Picture1.jpg


In fact, email me. We have a shed load of incidents and accidents that need clearing up double quick time. Should save the Crown a ton of dosh.

Do you water divine too?

[Grainger]

c_f were you there ?

Thought not, so keep your nonsense to yourself.

[Whirlygig]

Do you water divine too?
...er... I can a bit and I know someone who's quite good at dowsing but it probably wouldn't help in Air Accident Investigation unless you'd lost some of the parts!

Cheers

Whirls

[SilsoeSid]

It is clear that the Lynx incident above was caused by an inadvertant inflation of a dinghy pack inside the aircraft! :rolleyes:
Next!

[540DEGREE TorqueTurn]

cf,
any helicopter powered into the ground weather it be at 100 percent or 55 percent rrpm is still going to bend cone the blades up under the weight of all the **** under turning them ,and give it the nice little ripple effect ..

[float test]

i was there and i have photos. It was low rotor rpm. The horn came on a 400ft downwind going real slow. The pilot lowered the lever slightly and the passenger also a pilot without duals dumped the lever at 80% rrpm he then bend the lever on the way up about six ft to cushion the landing. The helicopter then rolled to one side.

No i wasn,t in the machine

[Scissorlink]

Maybe someone got out the fly spray... Anyone got a link for the news item ??

SL

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/233/233916_pair_escape_injury_in_helicopter_crash_.html

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ContentResources/234.$plit/C_17_Articles_233916_BodyWeb_Detail_0_Image.jpg

[mortennb]

Good to see that both walked away... :)

[SilsoeSid]

I saw the picture on TV. Massive coning on the blades low RRPM. Maximum 70% RRPM on landing very luckly, No doubt pilot error

:=

You saw the picture on TV :mad:
I don't suppose you gave any thought that it could be a design error, or even the result of something a previous pilot could have caused......did you?

[Whirlygig]

In anticaption of recreating the furore that surrounded the previous threads about R22 accidents, I am glad the pilot and passenger are OK.

Check out the comments from "Andrew, France" on the MEN link!

Cheers

Whirls

[wg13_dummy]

In anticaption of recreating the furore that surrounded the previous threads about R22 accidents, I am glad the pilot and passenger are OK.

Check out the comments from "Andrew, France" on the MEN link!

Cheers

Whirls


Lol. What a tube stick.


Yep, agree glad both were unhurt.

[PENNINE BOY]

RATTLE

I posted what I saw on TV! I was not aportioning blame to anybody about the incident!

I am glad that they walked away from this, I was worried that the ship looked like G GROUT, I know the owner who lives on the Wirral, and the press said that one of the guys was from the wirral.

So for F---S sake chill out!!

People post threads on here and all they get is a load of shi- thrown back. We are not making out when and why these incidents happen or who if anyone is to blame, But if we can all pick up the relavant reports from the AAIB when they are published and hopefully learn where others have fallen then hopefully we can pick up a few pointers to help us all in our daily flying :ugh:

[Whirlybird]

Pennine Boy,
I dn't think Rattle was blaming you; I think he meant the person who posted after you. But.....
So for F---S sake chill out!! People post threads on here and all they get is a load of shi- thrown back.
I entirely agree. I saw that there were eighteen posts, and thought I might find something useful about which aircraft, who was invoved, etc. But no, just speculation - which seems natural to me - complaints at speculation, complaints of complaints.....etc etc. :ugh:

[Johe02]

I also agree. 'Knee-jerk' reactions to informed speculation.

This is a/the rumour network. .

Censorship by humiliation :rolleyes:

[cyclic flare]

I made an educated guess to what happened and i was spot on low RRPM / heavy landing.

But all the usual suspects jump up and down like schoolboys.

Silsoe sid i suggest you get round to your AME and get him to have a look at you. DESIGN ERROR clown

The machine was G BOUT.

[Farmer 1]

No doubt pilot errorNo, Cylclic Flare, that is not a guess, educated or otherwise.

[rattle]

Whirly - Thanks. Very kind of you to step in there. I obviously was commenting about the second post, not yours PB. The AAIB can presumably do their investigations from a photo in the newspaper now.

This is not an anti-Robinson thread. This is a general point (that has now been raised by others) that we cannot and should not apportion blame so easily.

If CF ever has the misfortune of being involved in an accident, I hope his "peers" are not so quick to claim pilot error without a full investigation. If somebody had been injured or worse, would he be so quick to post?
We know these posts are read by non-aviation types including press and families. Do we need to be so quick to point the finger, even if you may turn out (after a long investigation by the real experts) to be correct?

[SilsoeSid]

I made an educated guess to what happened and i was spot on low RRPM / heavy landing.
But all the usual suspects jump up and down like schoolboys.
Silsoe sid i suggest you get round to your AME and get him to have a look at you. DESIGN ERROR clown

If I may recall an earlier post about R22 blades,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1703194#post1703194

"High coning angles, Engine off in the hover allowing the rpm to drop to say 75% for couple of secs coluld that kink the blade."

Doesn't sound like a very good design to me and that is you saying this could happen!

But then again I have only got that bit of knowledge from an expert!

Interesting about kinked blades though!!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159934

[helimutt]

you sure it wasn't G-ROUT?? G-Bout comes up as a Nelson Cri-Cri??

G-Rout probably means it was Mike * onboard. Hope he's ok.

[Twiddle]

It may well be pilot error but youre just guessing aren't you?
Can you cast your expert eye on this and let us know the cause. We're still unsure;
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1138530/Picture1.jpg




Birdstrike, could be either an emu, penguin or a Dodo, but without a doubt.....

[MINself]

As this is a "guess what caused the crash" thread!
IMO this could be one of the Lynxs loss of tail rotor control which led to the crew executing an EOL which unfortunately due to the soft ground led to a skid digging in leading to it ending up on its side..... judging by the coning on the blades and the MRH pitch control rod positions... :8 mmm or it could be a dodo :eek:

[fbk660]

As a high time R22 Pilot, leaving my site in Romiley, I flew to Chester to collect the Owner of G-ROUT at 9.20am on the 22nd
At this point, the owner of the aircraft, flew me back to the initial take off site. On arrival at the site, approx 10.40am, we approached the site at 150ft....in a still hover. All seemed well and as a passenger of the aircraft, I was not alarmed at the approach, but at 100ft the low rotor alarm sounded. The aircrafts tail yawed to the left. At a first glance the carb heat was full out but then looking to the right the rotor RPM was at 80% with a voilent right yaw. As a co-pilot with no duals?? At this point we were 100 ft from the ground, and all went wrong...the solution to this would have been ??........ the comments are valued here...we both walked away to tell the tale!

[muffin]

As a medium time R22 owner and pilot, I think you did an incredible job to walk away from that. I will not venture to offer advice, but I will read the suggestions from those vastly more experienced than myself with great interest.

[wg13_dummy]

As a high time R22 Pilot, leaving my site in Romiley, I flew to Chester to collect the Owner of G-ROUT at 9.20am on the 22nd
At this point, the owner of the aircraft, flew me back to the initial take off site. On arrival at the site, approx 10.40am, we approached the site at 150ft....in a still hover. All seemed well and as a passenger of the aircraft, I was not alarmed at the approach, but at 100ft the low rotor alarm sounded. The aircrafts tail yawed to the left. At a first glance the carb heat was full out but then looking to the right the rotor RPM was at 80% with a voilent right yaw. As a co-pilot with no duals?? At this point we were 100 ft from the ground, and all went wrong...the solution to this would have been ??........ the comments are valued here...we both walked away to tell the tale!


Well done that man. Glad you and the other chap managed to walk away.


Don't forget to submit your accident report to cyclic_flare though. :ok:

[Scissorlink]

Think I would have had a few loud words to say to the pilot coming to a hover at a 150 feet !!!! Who trains these guys !!!!!!!! :ugh:


SL

[fbk660]

As this is a "guess what caused the crash" thread!
IMO this could be one of the Lynxs loss of tail rotor control which led to the crew executing an EOL which unfortunately due to the soft ground led to a skid digging in leading to it ending up on its side..... judging by the coning on the blades and the MRH pitch control rod positions... :8 mmm or it could be a dodo :eek:

Think I would have had a few loud words to say to the pilot coming to a hover at a 150 feet !!!! Who trains these guys !!!!!!!! :ugh:


SL
it was a bad judgement at the time, i was thinking he was doing a closed area slow decent landing of some sort as a practice, but by the time of no return it was to late 80% 100 feet with only my right hand ?

[MINself]

Glad you both walked, well err probably crawled away from it I bet you needed a stiff drink afterwards :D
Was the landing site surrounded by obstacles? is that why the owner came to a 150' still hover
I see, just read your last post :ok:

[thecontroller]

the tail yawed to the left?? surely you mean nose?

The aircrafts tail yawed to the left.

[fbk660]

nose dip and left yar yery fast, by the time i knew what was happenining it was all over, until youve being there 1 sec is a long time, you just act instinctiveley. and still here !

[scooter boy]

Very glad you got out OK that is the most important thing - never mind the machine. The statistics do not stack up well in your favour if it goes pear shaped at over 40ft in a Robbo - so well done :D , I doubt many of us could have done any better.

I know it is impossible to pin the cause down without a proper investigation but do you think it could have been carb icing? What were the ambient conditions?

I only ask as I have experienced what I believe to have been carb icing in an R22 I used to own with full carb heat applied.


SB

[fbk660]

nose dip and left yar yery fast, by the time i knew what was happenining it was all over, until youve being there 1 sec is a long time, you just act instinctiveley. and still here !


both well Grouts need some attention nothinging to do with aircraft design just the wrong time and place, flying soon

Mark

[fbk660]

defernatley not carb iceing, the slide was right out, and confered on impact, as the passanger this is something that i could control,

[rattle]

FBK

Congrats on the recovery, and glad you both got out in one piece. Very interesting that you have been brave enough to come on here and tell the real story. Hopefully the speculation will stop now, and the AAIB can find the cause of the low RPM so we can all learn.

[Brilliant Stuff]

fbk660

Well Done to you both. The important thing is you both walked away from it and we can learn from it. And thank you for putting us into the picture.

[Scissorlink]

Yep as long as everyone learns and no one is hurt


SL

[Ding Dong]

Ok, if nobody else will ......

In a hover at 150ft, you have allot of power in use .. I am assuming its a tight area otherwise why are you hovering at 150ft ??

At 100ft all is well, pilot may have pulled a little more collective to reduce rate of decent, that would give 80% due to increase in pitch ... then a yaw .. are these the symtoms of vortex ring ??

Shoot me down now .. but its just a theory !! :ouch:

Note .. I have never done time in a Robo and never intend too ...

[Whirlybird]

Overpitching? If you came to an OGE hover with two on board? Or am I way off track; not something I know much about - so definitely just speculation on my part.

Phew!!!! Glad you're both OK. One thing this has taught me - as an instructor, I'm never flying as a passenger without the dual controls installed. Not that I think I'm that brilliant a pilot or could cope with everything, but having to just sit there and do nothing must have been terrifying!!!!!!

Editing as I just saw Ding Dong's post...but I think we're roughly saying the same thing, and I think what Ding Dong is trying to describe is overpitching, not vortex ring.

Please note....I would not speculate on this normally, but since the pilot is with us on this thread, maybe all of us Robbie pilots can learn something from this. :ok:

[rotorspin]

surely overpitching would not result in a yaw to the left? That sounds like engine or drive failure?

either way, as many of you have said, worst nightmare scenario, especially without dual controls fitted....

thanks for coming onto the forum and discussing... :D

[Johe02]

Not clear if it was left or righr yaw but. .

My guess is you ran out of engine power/MAP. To counteract the sink/decent the pilot pulled more lever/left pedal and RRPM decayed. Main Rotor & Tail rotor overpictched

Guessing - 2x 12-14 stone blokes with 15+ gals fuel - carb heat out.

I stand to be corrected. .

Well done for posting, I was begining to think it was a component failure.

[Ding Dong]

... all positive !

I was going with the vortex ring theory .. You have the power the sink rate and the yaw ..??? i took it that yaw came before the 80% rpm ??? :ooh:

The edit was because i spelt theory wrong .. :{

[AndyJB32]

I've not flown the R22 for 10 years now, so forgive any errors.
If the aircraft was over pitched, that would cause the rotor rpm to decrease, after it got to the point when the engine could not produce enough power to overcome the rotor drag. With an OGE hover, two people and full carb heat the aircraft would be using a fairly large amount of power initially.
If the aircraft was overpitched, then as well as reducing the main rotor RPM, the tail rotor RPM would fall. Because the tail rotor is a smaller rotor, and is spinning a lot faster than the main rotor, any reduction in the tail rotor rpm will have a significant effect on the anti torque function. The torque reaction of the R22 makes the nose turn right, tail turn left. Any loss of tail rotor effectiveness would therefore cause the nose to turn to the right, and tail to turn left, as described here.
I don't know if it was due to over pitching, or anything else, but the nose would turn to the right in a low rotor rpm situation.
As already mentioned here though, the main thing is everyone walked away unhurt to fly another day.

[helimutt]

As an ex R22 FI,
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?

I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.

[Twiddle]

Phew!!!! Glad you're both OK. One thing this has taught me - as an instructor, I'm never flying as a passenger without the dual controls installed. Not that I think I'm that brilliant a pilot or could cope with everything, but having to just sit there and do nothing must have been terrifying!!!!!!


One thing to add there, when I was a student, I used to do the A checks, one day, having completing the travel, throttle and detent checks, I noticed that whoever had previously refitted the dual controls hadn't secured the collective properly and it just neatly slid out....

Since then, whenever I'm left seat I always check for proper installation (regardless of who did the A check), and whenever I remove them I never refit them myself anymore (not laziness, just ensures that the next person that needs them knows they've been removed and can ensure that they are properly refitted).

And before anybody says about signoff when removing and refitting duals, take a look at your school, does it really happen?

Just a beware, I still remember that day thinking that had something happened then my instructor with a collective in his hand would have made an interesting photo.....

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

Interesting to read the reactions to the lack of duals installed. Understandable as we are all drivers.....

....but, CRM people!

If I'm PIC and find myself in a tricky spot, I don’t want to have to start fighting the other person’s inputs (however well meaning) as well as attempting to deal with the situation at hand.

Yes, on this occasion, the pax actions appear to be correct. But the thought of someone snatching the cyclic at 50' during an auto because they have a couple of hours more in Robbo's than me could make an already bad situation considerably worse!

My two cents....

After it's all said and done,....... definitely well done that man!

[Twiddle]

Hence the requirement to remove them is the left seater isn't qualified on type, but I guess the bottom line is that if they are qualified on type and you do have them fitted the option is there for them to assist.

The practicalities of a non instructor/examiner taking over at short notice and without the cooperation of the right hand seat is a different matter. (The point I'm making badly here is that instructors probably have a good idea of the right level of effort involved and are probably seeing a situation develop from their experience on trial lessons. I was with somebody a while ago who froze on the pedals as we were lifting when I was in the left hand seat and all I could do was push the collective to the floor, so I do admire you guys and gals!)

[Bravo73]

Hence the requirement to remove them is the left seater isn't qualified on type

Just so that you are aware, Twiddle, the requirement is that the left seat occupant is a 'rated helicopter pilot'. No mention about being qualified on type.



What I've learnt from this incident though is that if I'm in the LHS, I'll keep the duals in, regardless of the experience of the bod in the RHS! :oh:

[MD900 Explorer]

fbk660
Well done on surviving your incident, only 8 lives to go :D

Bravo73

Would it make any difference if you went up as a passenger and the duals were not in? :confused:

I would have thought that a pretty dangerous situation to land oneself in, trying to take control over the situation physically when the poor pilot is already overloaded with the oncome of the emergency, and then s/he has to deal with you as well :uhoh:

What happend to the more experienced pilot, talking to the flying pilot and making them aware of potential problems, so they can become better pilots, because sometimes "we" arn't always gonna be there to "save" the day when that more inexperienced pilot flys a bunch of friends and gets distracted with conversation and not the situation. :D

MD :(

[206 jock]

I hate joining in conjecture: that's what the AAIB do a lot better than anyone here, but if you must insist, there are two key facts you should bear in mind:
1) it didn't have full fuel. At least 1 hour 20mins had been flown prior to the 150' hover
2) Some carb icing can't be ruled out, even if the Carb heat was selected full. I haven't flown an R22 for a while, but I do recall clearly that you need to engage carb heat in plenty of time as it takes several seconds for the heat to reach the carb....and it must be selected while the engine is still at full power, not after the MP has begun to drop to 18' or less. It's not clear when the carb heat ws selected, only that it was verified after the problems began.
Just my two pennuth.

[thecontroller]

lo-rpm would result in the nose yawing to the LEFT

(roll the throttle off in the hover and you need RIGHT pedal)

i dont think there is a legal requirement to remove the duals if the passenger isnt rated. it comes down to the discretion of the training school/aircraft owner

[AndyJB32]

rolling the throttle off in the hover is reducing the torque, which causes the nose to go left.
If the rpm's getting dragged down but still with a high power setting, and therefore with a lot of torque, the lack of tail rotor thrust due to its low rpm, will not be enough to overcome the engine torque, so the nose will go right (on the R22)

[Gaseous]

I've seen this sort of incident from the left seat too. Very frightening. I did not intervene even though dual controls were in.
Circumstances.
R22, fairly high weight. Deteriorating visibility. We decide to land to avoid IMC. P1 picked a clearing in a wood which he felt was secluded and so would not attract attention. Airspeed bled off and slow descent initiated. Horn came on with yaw at about 50ft. P1 dumped the lever and we hit hard enough to get out and check for damage, but there was none. Carb heat was full on.
We came to the conclusion he was stressed up and gripping the throttle hard enough to override the governor. When the weather improved we continued without problem.
P1 was the owner and an R22 instructor.
Not wishing to pre-empt AAIB. just a factual report of a similar event that didn't end so badly - but could have done.

[Bravo73]

Thanks for the unwarranted 'attack' on me :*, MD900 Explorer, but you've asked me a few direct questions so I feel obliged to respond.



Bravo73

Would it make any difference if you went up as a passenger and the duals were not in?

In this case, the occupant of the LHS feels that it WOULD have made a difference. You have read the whole thread, haven't you?

Are you saying that you are definately better qualified to execute that emergency, no matter who you fly with? :confused:

Er, no. I'm not saying that at all. How on earth did you infer that?


I would have thought that a pretty dangerous situation to land oneself in, trying to take control over the situation physically when the poor pilot is already overloaded with the oncome of the emergency, and then s/he has to deal with you flapping away. Hardly professional me thinks. :uhoh:

Who said anything about trying 'to take control over the situation physically'? Once again, I think that you are trying to infer way too much into my comment. I am well aware of the 'you have/I have control' CRM implications in a situation like this.


What happend to the more experienced pilot, talking to the flying pilot and making them aware of potential problems, so they can become better pilots, because sometimes "we" arn't always gonna be there to "save" the day when that more inexperienced pilot flys a bunch of friends and gets distracted with conversation and not the situation. :D


MD :( What??? I don't know, what did happen 'to the more experienced pilot talking to the flying pilot blah, blah, blah?' Is there a punchline to this somewhere?

Sorry for being so sarcastic but I've got a feeling that you might be trying to project some of your own fears and insecurities into my comments. :ugh:

But here's a hypothetical scenario for you, MD900 Explorer. You are flying as a passenger with your Chief Pilot in a R22. Let's say that the CP is very senior and he's probably forgotten more about helicopters than we'll ever know. But, unfortunately, like the Captain of that recent Continental flight (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=260843), he has a heart attack. Bonus question for 10 points: do you want the dual controls installed or not?



And to thecontroller:

i dont think there is a legal requirement to remove the duals if the passenger isnt rated. it comes down to the discretion of the training school/aircraft owner

There is a legal requirement (in so much as there's a legal requirement to do a Check A before the first flight of the day). The Check A specifically says that the dual controls have to be removed if the occupant of the LHS is not a 'rated helicopter pilot'. I'm afraid that I'm at home at the moment so I can't give you a page number because I don't have a POH to hand.

"CAUTION - Removable controls should be removed if person in left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot." Page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.




.

[MD900 Explorer]

Bravo73,

Please excuse me, it certainly wasn't meant as an unwarrented attack on you or your credibility here. I enjoy reading your comments as they seem to be backed up by experience and a sensible head. :D

My comments were made on the basis of what you said about always wanting when in the LHS have the duals fitted, and maybe my imagination went overboard as to what might happen should a bad CRM situation happen, not that i would suggest that you would do it, but merely that somebody may do it. But you didnt answer my question in your first rebutt to me; and yes i have read the whole thread. :oh:

Certainly no fears or insecurities projected from myself in your comments. But i shall be sure to choose my words carefully next time, since you seem to be a sensitive soul. :=

As for your question about wanting to have the controls in place? If i was a rated pilot on that particular machine, it would be nice to have them in, should it be necessary. But only from the point of view of the P1 giving control to me verbally. As for any other type, i would like to think the pilot in charge has been through training and should be able to cope with the situation as it arises. Maybe i place more faith and trust in colleagues than i ought to, but hey, thats the kinda guy i am. :hmm:

Remember, keep it in the green!
MD :ok:

[Bravo73]

Sorry for snapping, MD900. No hard feelings meant. I guess that I can bite if poked with a sharp enough stick...! :O


Just to qualify my original comment: these 2 situations (Stockport R22 and the incapacitation of the PIC on the Continental flight) have shown me that I'd rather have the duals installed than not. Then at least there is the option to switch control, IF (and only if) the situation warrants it.

[Flingingwings]

Bravo - I also believe there is a legal requirement to remove the duals. Don't recall it being in the RFM, more likely to be in FCL 2.
At the last school I worked at the policy was that unless the person occupying the P2 seat was rated on type, currently licensed and current on type then the duals came out. That said with somebody less experienced acting as P1 I'd want the duals left in.
Glad everybody is ok. A few possible explanations (none that I'll air pre investigation) but feel certain some learning points will come from the AAIB report. :ok:

[MD900 Explorer]

Flingingwings

Check your PM. :uhoh:

Bravo73

No worries. Good healthy debates are what this Forum is all about. :D

Regards

MD :D

[Bravo73]

MD900 - Did try to warn/advise you :ugh: Blimey, I'm flattered. You ex-FAST boys sure do stick together, eh? ;)



Bravo - I also believe there is a legal requirement to remove the duals. Don't recall it being in the RFM, more likely to be in FCL 2.

I'll get the page number tomorrow. Unless anybody's got the POH to hand?

See my earlier post. But it's page 4-5 in both R22BII and R44RavenII POHs.


At the last school I worked at the policy was that unless the person occupying the P2 seat was rated on type, currently licensed and current on type then the duals came out.

A very sensible policy, IMHO. IIRC, the POH requirement came about as a result of the tragic accident near Leamington Spa a few years ago involving a son and his father taking photographs. I can try to dig out the AAIB report if anybody wants to see it.



That said with somebody less experienced acting as P1 I'd want the duals left in.
Amen to that! ;)


MD900 - Dang. I wish there was a 'shake hands' smiley! :ok:





.

[cyclic flare]

As an ex R22 FI,
my questions are these:-
1/. fbk660, You say you are high time R22. How high does that mean?
2/. If you have high hours in an R22, was it only the fact you probably didn't want to say something to the owner about his piloting skills that stopped you remarking on a 150' hover, 2pob and some fuel.
3/. Out of interest, would you be prepared to state your weight? I already have a good idea of MP's weight. and fuel onboard?
I am not trying to dig holes for people here, but 3 accidents in R22's this year so far is going to really hit R22 owners hard in insurance.

fbk660

Any chance of the answers to these questions, just to enlighten us slightly.

You say you are high time R22. There is only one maybe two high time robbo pilots in your area. where did you learn

Someone mentioned 150ft hover over pitching even with two fatties on board and full fuel an R22 will hover easily at 150ft. Are you sure you were into wind. Could this pitching / yawing be the start of vortex?

Lefts face it most high time R22 pilots are instructors and would see this sort of thing coming the day before, were you alsleep?

The main thing you both got out unhurt well done. Better look next time

[helimutt]

I think Gaseous has it spot on. Seen it myself actually but lucky enough to have enough height to get out of it. Minimum time CPL sitting next to me as P1. I was along for the ride and duals were in. Approaching confined area for practice and P1 didn't realise we were actually coming in downwind! I left it late as I could risk without putting us at too much risk hoping he'd notice. Took control with those immortal words 'I have....'

If you put 2 average size guys (12.5st+ or 168lbs+ x 2 =350lbs+ )in an R22 with fuel, you've got nothing really in reserve power wise.

I know of instructors flying R22's who have to be at least 17st. Not only are they flying illegally but with another average guy onboard, they can't really fly anywhere without less than 5gals onboard. Wish I could do something about it! Too many people getting hurt in R22's and too many crashing.

[MD900 Explorer]

Bravo73

That AAIB report would make interesting reading if you can get hold if it.

Shake hands smiley would work, probably one of the more needed icons on this forum :hmm:

MD :)

[float test]

No, not end of story. That will be decided by the AAIB.
....Unless you were the pilot?


I dont think AAIB will be to interested, no injuries etc and its a long way from Farnborough will they? I think you will find the report will consist of the pilots / passengers account of things

[rattle]

the report will consist of the pilots / passengers account of things
Pilot's / passenger's / pprune theory specialists' accounts maybe?

[ShyTorque]

After reading some of the responses on this thread I'm never going to ride in a car with only one steering wheel. :oh:

[rattle]

After reading some of the responses on this thread I'm never going to ride in a car with only one steering wheel. :oh:

Or one with a single piston engine? Sorry, wrong thread...

[Bravo73]

That AAIB report would make interesting reading if you can get hold if it.


I couldn't remember the reg or the date so I've just been ploughing through all of the R22 reports on the AAIB site. :uhoh: (BTW, there are 89, so far...)

But I found it. :8 Makes for depressing reading though. :{ The Safety Recommendation at the end is particularly pertinent to this discussion:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_026168.pdf

[bladewashout]

Congrats on getting yourselves out of that one.

I'm only a low time pilot, but on the few times I have flown with another pilot, the dual controls are always in, and I have had an explicit conversation before getting in the helicopter about who does what in an emergency.

e.g we would agree that if he's an instructor, and says 'I have control' at any time in an emergency or otherwise (short of him being obviously mad), I let go, do radio, configure switches if necessary; if the other pilot is the same hours as me, the pilot currently flying handles the controls, pnf does radio, switches. Also covers the single dissenting voice on any situation or manoeuver.

These things need to be agreed in advance! Finally, as pilot flying and in particular after reading what has happened here, I would now consider myself negligent in not fitting the dual controls where the passenger was a pilot, simply on safety grounds unless there's an obvious reason not to fit them.

BW

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

Having "an explicit conversation.....about who does what in an emergency."
prior to getting in, is one thing.

What actually happens in the cockpit when the proverbial hits the fan, may be something completely different!

…….if I write anymore, I will end up completely contradicting my earlier post...!

[fbk660]

fbk660

Any chance of the answers to these questions, just to enlighten us slightly.

You say you are high time R22. There is only one maybe two high time robbo pilots in your area. where did you learn

Someone mentioned 150ft hover over pitching even with two fatties on board and full fuel an R22 will hover easily at 150ft. Are you sure you were into wind. Could this pitching / yawing be the start of vortex?

Lefts face it most high time R22 pilots are instructors and would see this sort of thing coming the day before, were you alsleep?

The main thing you both got out unhurt well done. Better look next time

Hi there again to all...

The cat with only 8 lives is reading on again...the thoughts regarding duals are taken on board....

As for the questions from Cyclic Flare, as follows.

You know MP and his capabilities, but please remember that this all happened in under a second, in hind sight, and having all day to think about it, I still couldn't have pre-emptied the situation! It happen too fast! MP is a good friend and an experienced pilot and has my complete trust.
As for the conclusion to the accident, no matter how everybody tries to work it out, I was SAT their and I still don't know, but hey theorys are fantastic!

[Gaseous]

Helimutt, Thanks.

I was discussing this with another Robbo pilot today with reference to freezing on the throttle grip and overriding the governor. He too has experienced this.

I think the governor is so good on the Robbo that it makes pilots a little complacent about RPM as the aircraft will generally look after it for them - except when they are loaded up and have a death grip on the lever.

Robbo pilots certainly seem to struggle when put in a manual throttle aircraft for the first few times. In my experience they just don't seem to see the RPM gauge unless doing autos.

[helimutt]

Gaseous, I guess the difference for some of us is that we learned to fly R22's pre-governor. It was luxury which appeared about 4 years after I learned to fly them!:)

[InducedDrag]

I was discussing this with another Robbo pilot today with reference to freezing on the throttle grip and overriding the governor. He too has experienced this.



I also instruct in R22's and 44's. This is real common event. It seems to happen at least once in every student. It is usually at the end of an approach and they are death gripping so hard that they dont let the throttle advance as the collective is raised. The correlator will do most of the work if you let it.

I actually do this on purpose to my students to make them aware of this. I set them up for a confined area approach so they have their attention focused.

When they start the approach and lower power, I tense up on the throttle so it will not roll up when they add the power back in. (This way, I dont have to roll off power and they wont be tipped off to what is going on before the horn goes off!:E)

As they come in on the approach they raise the collective, and the rpm starts going down. The horn usually goes off and most just freeze. Not one has ever rolled the throttle up on the first time!. If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!!At the bottom of the approach....At 15-20':eek: .

I will recover and explain what happened and the proper correction is to try to add throttle first.

(Be careful on the recovery, because the blades are pitched high and if you just let the gov recover, the MP will blow through the roof. You have to roll it up slow and lower the collective down as you do this under the pilot's control.)

By the second or third time, the student will have this down pat. I always teach this before I solo a student. It is real easy to picture this scenario happening when they are stressed.

Like some have said....the gov can sometimes be too good. Instructors need to fully verse their students on how to fly when things AREN'T working right!

I have also seen some pilots/students with bad habits like holding the grip further down the collective so part of their had is off the foam and part is on the actual tube of the collective. This is a recipe for disaster. When they tense up, it stops any throttle movement.

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

InducedDrag;
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."

You are no doubt a qualified and highly experienced Robbo instructor, so just out of interest,

What else do you think the student would do....!

It is drummed into every pilot who flies a R22, the instant you hear the horn, lower the level, (unless in the hover - and certainly not any higher than 15' -20' !) attempt to regain RRPM, THEN try and find out what the problem is. And this is said time and time again.

Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?

All you are actually demonstrating is another scenario that causes low RRPM, a teaching in it's self, but not the one you are attempting.

In fact, this reiterates my opinion why duals should always be removed! It stops people playing...!:E

[Stringfellow Dork]

It is drummed into every pilot who flies a R22, the instant you hear the horn, lower the lever,
It was drummed into me to lower the lever but lead with the throttle in a low RPM situation. If you only lower the lever the correlator is reducing power just when you need it...

[cyclic_fondler]

StringFellow,

Same here. I was "lucky" to learn in the pre-governor days and so the instinctive reaction to the horn was to lower the lever and open the throttle at the same time.

CF

[Gaseous]

To hark back to the incident I saw, what happened after the horn came on was the AFI P1 dumped the lever,-don't know what happened with the throttle- the horn went off but by then the rate of descent was such that that at the bottom there was not enough room/power/rpm to stop us hitting the ground hard enough to scare the crap out of us. It was all done, horn on to hitting ground in a few seconds. No time to stop and analyse anything. :eek:
Bear in mind if you already have a rate of descent with a lot of power on, dumping the lever makes you drop like a stone.
Opening the throttle without dumping the lever would probably have been a better course of action in this case but I dont know for sure if that would have been enough on its own to recover RPM.
Best to make sure it stays in the green by avoiding the death grip.
Better still, get an Enstrom and you HAVE to watch the RPM...All the time or you die.:E

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

The first Robbie I flew was an Alpha with no governor. Yes the gov. is a luxury and not a necessity. (Although MS might disagree)

I wasn't suggesting that a predefined sequence of events should not take place, merely that if I am not in the hover and the horn sounds......you instantly lower the lever, then at T+1 sec you establish the cause of the low RRPM, then make the required adjustments according to the cause.

As a student, learning in an throttle assisted aircraft with the low RRPM horn blaring and I know I'm not over gripping the throttle, with potentially high (and increasing) blade pitch (coming the hover) with it's associated accelerated rpm decay, I (as a student) would probably revert back to what I've been taught time and time again.....Lower the lever, get back the RRPM, sort your the problem....

[Bravo73]

R22BetaII POH, Section 3 (Emergency Procedures), pg 10:


LOW RPM HORN & CAUTION LIGHT

A horn and an illuminated caution light indicate that rotor RPM may be below safe limits. To restore RPM, immediately roll throttle on, lower collective and, in forward flight, apply aft cyclic. The horn and caution light are disabled when collective is full down.



Looks pretty conclusive to me. In an R22 when the horn comes on, the drill is to open the throttle THEN lower the lever. :ok:

[Gaseous]

B73. Absolutely correct. :ok:

What I outlined above is what happens when the pilot screws it up. Yes pilot error (gasp - it does happen)
Hopefully no one else will experience this. (fat chance)

[Whirlybird]

In the R22 Safety Course, which I did (in the UK) soon after getting my PPL(H), was taught that when the horn goes off you open the throttle, then (or at the same time) lower the lever. We were told that far more accidents were caused by pilots overriding the governor and throwing the helicopter into autorotation and getting it wrong, than by real engine failures. So I teach this way too. And I really like InducedDrag's idea. Because unless you practise it, you never know how you'll react to these things. And he's not preventing them overriding the governor; he's showing them what to do should it occur. Good idea. :ok:

[Stringfellow Dork]

Thinking about this some more: another (or maybe the main) reason for leading with the throttle to over-ride the correlator in a low RPM situation is to stop the butterfly valve closing completely due to carb ice (which of course could be the reason for the low RPM in the first place).
If you just lower the lever and the correlator does it's thing - closing the butterfly valve - you may be about to shut your engine off as the area surrounding the valve may be much smaller than it should be...

[UwantME2landWHERE!]

I never suggested the two or more operations could not happen at the same time! - Turning and Lowering.

But it was stated, with apparent astonishment, that when a student heard the LRRPM horn, he lowered the collective, period!

R22 POH definitely does not state that you roll on the throttle, then wait to lower the lever. It is assumed the pilot would consider this a single combine action.

As Whirlybird writes, on the safety course they may allow (as a qualified pilot, not a potentially pre-solo PPL student) you the option to increase throttle, then after that long second, lower the lever. But this is almost always practiced/demonstrated at 1000' + and 70kts straight and level, never at 20' agl with sub 45hr student! And is cautioned against. (The two part manoeuvre and delay, not the demonstration).

[Stringfellow Dork]

UwantME2landWHERE! - I absolutely agree that the rolling on of throttle and lowering of the lever should be considered a single and combined action to get your RPM back. Apologies if you have gotten the impression I have been trying to correct you or anything, but it's not so! I've just been stating what I was taught and kind of thinking/remembering out loud for the reasons why!

[Hairyplane]

I operate an R44.

My partner has done 10 hours training and is quite capable of flying and landing the thing if anything should happen to me. With the controls out, everyone dies. A no brainer for me.

I'm the captain of the aircraft, its my decision whether to take them out or not. My simple test is this - If they will be of no use to the passenger in the event of my incapacitation, they come out. My call always.

Hairyplane

[Bravo73]

I'm the captain of the aircraft, its my decision whether to take them out or not.

Hmmm, interested attitude, Hairyplane. So you ignore the caution in the R44 POH? (Page 4-5, if you want to look it up).

"Removable controls should be removed if person in forward left seat is not a rated helicopter pilot."

Out of interest, which other bits of the POH do you choose to ignore? :uhoh:




My partner has done 10 hours training

I understand your reasoning but she's not a 'rated helicopter pilot', I'm afraid. := Robinson are very specific about this, and for good reason.

[Whirlybird]

I'm with Hairyplane on this. I know several schools that do Left Seat Awareness Training, for partners or regular passengers - the equivalent of the f/w Safety Pilot course. It seems sensible that were the pilot to have a heart attack or similar, the passenger could land the helicopter...rather than let them both die!!!!

Suppose you carry this to its logical conclusion. Suppose I, a helicopter instructor, let my licence lapse for some reason, and go flying with Hairyplane. Should he still remove the second set of controls?

My feeling is that common sense has a part to play here, no matter what anyone says.

[InducedDrag]

InducedDrag;
"If they do anything...some try to lower the collective!!! At the bottom of the approach...."


What else do you think the student would do....!



Also, I can't quite understand how you locking the throttle teaches them not to grip the throttle overly tight?





My comment..."If they do anything, they lower the collective" shows how wrong their reaction can be. Just lowering the collective (in a robbie) will do NOTHING....if not make the situation WORSE. The correlator will roll the throttle down as you lower the collective. You MUST roll on throttle.


The reason I am locking the throttle is so I can overide the gov. and get them in a low RPM situation. The gov and derating work so well, the student will never see this on their own. (unless there is a problem of some sort)....Especially since I fly out of an airport at 680'.

I have found that when practicing low RPM recognition and recovery during flight training, most of the time the student will feel the instructor rolling off the throttle and are not at all surprised when the horn goes off. They do just as they are taught and roll throttle up and lower the collective.

However I have found when they are surprised and not expecting it, they most often times freeze and dont react at all, or they only lower the collective.

I surprise them by setting them up on a confined area approach so their attention is focused on a task.

The key is that they do not feel the throttle roll down. You can do this without them knowing by waiting until they lower power to start the approach. The correlator will roll the throttle down. THEN the instructor will freeze the throttle by gripping it half on and half off the grip. The student does not feel anything.

As they start adding collective at the bottom of the approach the throttle is not allowed to open and the horn will go off. The student is so focused on the confined approach that they have no idea.

Do this and watch their reaction. Most will NOT do the right thing.

It is a fairly real world example of a situation that could happen as well.....such as departing at gross and landing at a destination at a very high DA. You may come in on an approach and have the horn go off. The throttle may be wide open but you are out of the derating.

In this situation you must roll on throttle (or in this case keep it wide open) as you lower the collective or you will not get the RPM back. The correlator will roll the throttle down....

[Hairyplane]

Which other parts of the POH do I choose to ignore?
There are more you will be horrified to hear.
As well as deciding to improve my passengers chances of survival in the event of my sudden incapacitation, I also ignore the fuel minima and flight in turbulence guidelines. Mine are much more conservative.
Leaving the pax controls in when the seat is occupied by somebody who can fly it ( licenced or otherwise - my judgement), carting a bit more gas and rarely flying within 100lbs of MAUW.... I should have my licence torn up.
I'll argue till the cows come home that the simplistic, all-encompassing product liability-compliant 'dont do it' statement is wrong in cases such as mine. Do what they think the lawyers will want you to do rather than apply some basic common sense may be fine for you but not for me.
To deny it is to state also that any pilot safety course is not only a waste of time but dangerous.
Best that every heli school in the country stops offering them.....?:= Clearly so in your argument.
Hairyplane.

[ShyTorque]

As far as all the flight manuals I've seen are concerned, the word "should" does not mean that the action or advice is mandatory.

The words "shall" or "must" are generally used to indicate mandatory actions or advice.

[Gaseous]

Everything but the limitations (section3 in Robbo and Enstrom POHs) is advisory. Ignore advice at your own risk.

[Johe02]

Well said Hairy. .

Rules are for the guidence of the wise and the obedience of fools. .

[scooter boy]

Well said Hairy. .

Rules are for the guidence of the wise and the obedience of fools. .

Taking the recommendations of the manual one step further;

Is everybody flying their Robinsons in Nomex suits?:rolleyes:

I don't think so.

Good on your wife Mr Hairyplane for having the gumption to learn some basic handling. I hope she never has to take over from you.

My Mrs (when I can coax her in to my R44 - usually by promising to fund a shopping trip) will only sit in the back (like the queen) - she thinks she is safer in the event of an accident - figure that one out!

SB

[bvgs]

Was once on a powerboat when we went over the wake of another boat and captain was knocked over, banged his head and passed out. I leant over, took control of the twin throttles and pulled them back, while steering the boat away from some marker bhoy we were about to hit. I then called the coast guard on the radio. No qualifications for the boat or the radio.....just the sensible thing to do. Really Bravo you are quite incorrect here, different if you are giving someone their first ride in the heli but your wife who flies with you all the time and has 10 hours under her belt. My motto is give yourself evey possible chance......you really must have an ugly wife Bravo:eek: (Joke)

[Matt Raw]

RATTLE

We are not making out when and why these incidents happen or who if anyone is to blame, But if we can all pick up the relavant reports from the AAIB when they are published and hopefully learn where others have fallen then hopefully we can pick up a few pointers to help us all in our daily flying


"Learn from the mistakes of others, 'cos you sure as hell won't live long enough to make them all yourself" Springs to mind.;)

[muffin]

Yes, I do the same. If I am giving a ride to anybody who I don't know well or has no experience I always take the duals out. If my passenger is either a pilot of any sort or a frequent occupant then I don't mind having them installed if they happen to be there already.

However, if they are out as they normally are, I will leave them out and only specially fit them if I am flying with another helicopter pilot.

I once refitted them before I knew that the pedals were a left and right version, and if you get them reversed the back of the RHS one hits the LHS one. The full and free check showed that my passenger's camera bag was on the pedals, and after he had moved it I did not repeat the check. Big Mistake! When I lifted into the hover I had no left pedal travel and had to very quickly dump the lever. I always always check that left and right are in the correct positions now.

[ShyTorque]

I think it is sensible to understand why the advice regarding the removal of dual controls is given. It is there so that the "lowest common denominator" category of passenger doesn't cause a control restriction or inadvertently cause control inputs.

Anyone of some intelligence, of sound mind and properly briefed would not do that. I would certainly leave the duals in for someone with ten hours rotary experience. We were sent solo after ten hours and were required to fly a full solo engine off landings sortie after 40 hours.

I once had the opposite problem. I turned up at a Gazelle on a rotors running crew change to teach EOLs. There were no dual controls fitted. I declined to take the aircraft, although there was no advice in the Flight Manual about that situation.

I would stress the briefing before flight! I did once have a scare after climbing out of a Whirlwind 10 after my sortie during a rotors running crew change. A fairly ancient Group Captain (he flew Mosquitos) was being taken for a familiarisation ride with my instructor. I remained at the aircraft "downstairs" ready to remove the wheel chock and was listening in on the intercom as the Groupie was being talked through his strapping in. I was leaning against the door sill on the right, with my back to the door and looking out of the disc.

My instructor said: "Now, just make sure you can reach all the controls..."

With that, the old Whirly gave a huge lurch to the right, tyres squealing and lifting me off my feet! I was propelled out and away from the aircraft. I kept running, I felt a jolt as my intercom pigtail jerked free but I went at least fifty yards or so before stopping to look behind!

"Groupie", being a fixed wing pilot, had done a "full and free movement" check, hadn't he! :D

[lostpianoplayer]

Twiddle - am unsure if I am missing something here. I own and fly a 22, but have never heard of 'A' checks. What are they? Sounds like shorthand for "first, particularly thorough, pre-flight of the day", but I really don't know what you're referring to, and would like to. Don't recall any such checks referred to in POH but maybe I better read again. Are there 'B' checks, and 'C' checks as well? What do they all mean?
(This is not a sarcastic Q, BTW - I'm genuinely interested)

Also, for public consumption, I wonder what you guys would refer to as a low, medium and high time 22 pilot, respectively?

[helicopter-redeye]

My Mrs (when I can coax her in to my R44 ... will only sit in the back ... she thinks she is safer in the event of an accident - figure that one out!

SB


Well ackshirley in a Clipper it may well be as the LH Front Seat as 15lbs of scrap metal and gas in the seat collapse space.

And I would'nt fancy that up my :mad: in the event of a hard landing.

h-r;)