YSBK: Another aircraft down but safe

[das Uber Soldat]

bit of action around lately. I watched from mid downwind as a Jaberoo (sp) had engine trouble departing ysbk towards PSP, turned around, then appeared to have complete engine failure and force landed into warrick farm. Made a nice approach, few S turns then smoothly onto the race track.

If the pilot reads this, would like to commend him on keeping completely cool which would have been very reassuring to his student in that stressful situation. Very professional.

Anyone know where the aircraft went? When I got back from my sortie the aircraft was gone?

[Pseudonymn]

SMH states it was a Cessna. :hmm:

Link here. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/students-lands-light-aircraft-at-racecourse/2007/01/22/1169330823840.html)

[das Uber Soldat]

SMH states it was a Cessna. :hmm:

Link here. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/students-lands-light-aircraft-at-racecourse/2007/01/22/1169330823840.html)

rego is VH-LST.

[PPRuNeUser0182]

...perhaps time for the registration 'LST' to be retired. :uhoh: Glad to hear they're ok.

[Pseudonymn]

das Uber Soldat, the :hmm: was at the journalists, not you. Good to see they have lived down to their usual aviation reporting standards. :ugh:

[beaver_rotate]

...perhaps time for the registration 'LST' to be retired. :uhoh: Glad to hear they're ok.

Here here! I thought the rego sounded familiar.... remember it comes in 3's - it's an exact science. :eek: I am glad this one ended up better than last time. :ok: Nice work.
BR

[GearOff]

The Jabiru is still there, it's just been moved off the race track itself.

A job well done! :D

Always a worry when brand new aeroplanes go down tho. :sad:

[FlugWeasel]

Here here! I thought the rego sounded familiar.... remember it comes in 3's - it's an exact science. :eek: I am glad this one ended up better than last time. :ok: Nice work.
BR

What was wearing the mark prior to the Jabiru ?

[beaver_rotate]

What was wearing the mark prior to the Jabiru ?

An Aerocommander AC500 that crashed Hobart-Devonport in February 2004. Inflight breakup, pretty much an inconclusive report. Check it out http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/aair/aair200400610.aspx these types scare the bejesus out of me... not knowing why. They said either mountain wave activity; pilot incapacitation or autopilot upset as both trim tabs were in the full nose down position.

RIP

[The Original Jetpipe]

Hi All

Heared a "rumour" today that when the instructor got back to the flight school (after being checked out by the medics) He was sacked on the spot!!!!

Anybody like to comment? By the looks of it he did an excellent job!

The OJP

[das Uber Soldat]

Hi All

Heared a "rumour" today that when the instructor got back to the flight school (after being checked out by the medics) He was sacked on the spot!!!!

Anybody like to comment? By the looks of it he did an excellent job!

The OJP

I bloody well hope not, I believe he did a fantastic job to get the aircraft down. I dont think i'd be half as calm as he faced with the same situation. I might wander over tomorrow and inquire.

[StickWithTheTruth]

There's a rumour getting around that the aircraft may have run out of fuel...

If it did, I would not be surprised. The fuel gauge's in the J160 Jabiru are a shocker and only work when the aircraft is stationary, if at all. Rather than use them from the bottom up, ie, if it's empty add 50 litres, you need to go from the top down; ie. have it full when you start, then count backwards for your endurance. I hope that makes sense. Once it's below half there's no guarantee that you know how much is in there.

[J430]

StickWithTheTruth
Come on mate!!!!! Every aircraft has its little quirks, and with the Jabiru the fuel tank gauges usually read less in flight than actual, from the suction being drawn from the gauge (sight glass). I ought to know I own one and although its the BIG brother of them the gauges are much the same.
So if you run out in flight (after takeoff) you can not blame the gauges. In flight you may read up to 30L less perhaps, but you can never read 30L more than actual.
So mate before you spray cr@p like that next time check your facts. Chances are if they ran out of fuel there is a BLO@DY good reason for it. I think it will be something else, unless a fuel checking error has been the case, they are damn economical and you could be guilty for thinking they never run out of fuel as they use so little!!!:}
Cheers
J:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I am reminded of the fact that if you take all the fuel exhaustion events out of the engine 'failure' statistics actual forced landings from mechanical causes are extremely rare.

If you take out the fuel exhaustion and CFIT (scud running) accidents and VFR-IMC loss of control accidents out of the overall GA statistics crashes in general become exceedingly rare events.

How hard can it be?:ugh: :{

Note I make no direct comment on this latest incident.

[das Uber Soldat]

my problem with the fuel issue is that they had only just taken off ahead of us. That would mean the previous flight would have had to have landed with effectively no reserves at all, both the student and instructor failed to dip the tanks to notice this, and the instructor failed to observe the fuel gauges at any point.

still possible I guess, but does seem a bit strange.

my opinion only.

[J430]

Chimbu, you make very relevant points yet again!
For those wondering how hard it is in a Jabiru aircraft, here is the sight glass for the Port wing tank, this photo was taken prior to first flight so hence ZERO FUEL in the gauge.
This pic is from the back seats so you can see the gauges are beside your head and easy to see.
If in doubt refer CC's comments....:ugh:
Cheers
J:ok:

http://a439.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/43/l_f16184f1958abe4a10056ce7cb2be29e.jpg

[GearOff]

Happened to notice this aeroplane parked in a hangar today and can categorically assure you fuel exhaustion was not the issue. Some sort of major mechanical defect caused this one - it's a mess :eek:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

.. I am reminded of the fact that if you take all the fuel exhaustion events out of the engine 'failure' statistics actual forced landings from mechanical causes are extremely rare ..

True indeed, but none-the-less common enough to keep us cautious and respectful!

If the requlators were a little more pro-active then the engine failure rate would be even lower.

How many pilots (and pax) would have been saved the stress of a forced landing (or worse) if a fix of the recent faulty crankshaft problem had been mandated (at the manufacturers expense!) as soon as it became apparent?

A few years ago my brother had a head separate from a cylinder in his Mooney resulting in a forced landing. Aircraft purchased new, well maintained, flown by only a handful of experienced pilots. Apparently it was a not uncommon failure with a batch of cylinders.

And I still have the image of a C206 on the ground at Lockhart River aerodrome etched in my brain. There was a big hole in the cowling where one of the cylinders had departed the aircraft.

Fortunately both of the above had a happy ending - at least as far as the persons on board were concerned.

FTDC:cool:

[Squawk7700]

This one was a number 4 cylinder failure.

There have been a couple of catastrophic engine failure's in the new Jab 2.2 engines with hydraulic lifters (versus the older ones without them). You will hear very little about them as most of them would be Recreational registered and not published in the public domain.

[das Uber Soldat]

This one was a number 4 cylinder failure.

There have been a couple of catastrophic engine failure's in the new Jab 2.2 engines with hydraulic lifters (versus the older ones without them). You will hear very little about them as most of them would be Recreational registered and not published in the public domain.

any news of the fate of the pilot?

[Squawk7700]

I should clarify... The Number 4 Cylinder failed on this occasion. (It wasn't the fourth time the aircraft had had an engine failure!)

As for the instructor, I find it extremely hard to believe that he was sacked on the spot for safely landing an aircraft with a failed cylinder, unless it was broken before and he flew anyway?? I doubt that very much!

[Ultralights]

funnily enough, being in the RAA side of things now, the Hydraulic lifter Jab engines are pretty reliable and not know to have failures. the reputation of the new jab engines are they are pretty bulletproof.

i have heard rumours around the traps its the operators of the jabs either in maintainence or the pilots themselves not operating the engines as per the manual. as the cases of engine issues with this operator are abnormally high .

[Kickatinalong]

This one was a number 4 cylinder failure.
There have been a couple of catastrophic engine failure's in the new Jab 2.2 engines with hydraulic lifters (versus the older ones without them). You will hear very little about them as most of them would be Recreational registered and not published in the public domain.


You are spot on. Well done , maybe people should shut up unless they really know.
kickatinalong:D :D

[hoopdreams]

I had an EFATO in a C1150 in Canberra last week. It was my first lesson on emergency procedures, the first two circuits were go arounds and the next two were EFATO simulations. We decided to do one more circuit which was to be another EFATO. So anyways, the instructor pulls the throttle to idle and I go through the motions, however when climbing out , at about 300AAL, the engine starts rough running. The instructor took over and tried to revive the engine by pumping the mixture, but it completely died.

The instructor acted quickly swinging the aircraft towards a paddock. It looked like we were too high for one particular paddock because we were headed for the fence and the trees, but we extended the gluide and made it into the next paddock, which btw was a smooth landing and aircrat was undamaged. We were a bit shaken afterwards but elated to be on the ground safe, we were even having a laugh about it. Fire, ambulance, and police were on scene, followed shortly by the media, which we managed to avoid by jumping a few fences.
I hope to learn from this experience to make me a safer pilot. Everytime I take off I prepare myself for this situation, i.e. looking for a field if EFATO.

Cheers

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I had an EFATO in a C1150 in Canberra last week. It was my first lesson on emergency procedures, the first two circuits were go arounds and the next two were EFATO simulations. We decided to do one more circuit which was to be another EFATO. So anyways, the instructor pulls the throttle to idle and I go through the motions, however when climbing out , at about 300AAL, the engine starts rough running. The instructor took over and tried to revive the engine by pumping the mixture, but it completely died.

The instructor acted quickly swinging the aircraft towards a paddock. It looked like we were too high for one particular paddock because we were headed for the fence and the trees, but we extended the gluide and made it into the next paddock, which btw was a smooth landing and aircrat was undamaged. We were a bit shaken afterwards but elated to be on the ground safe, we were even having a laugh about it. Fire, ambulance, and police were on scene, followed shortly by the media, which we managed to avoid by jumping a few fences.
I hope to learn from this experience to make me a safer pilot. Everytime I take off I prepare myself for this situation, i.e. looking for a field if EFATO.

Cheers

Any such event that you walk away from is cause for celebration, but ......

Any expanation for why the engine died?

"pumping the mixture" - is not in any emergency procedures I am familiar with?

FTDC:cool:

[hoopdreams]

It was a really hot day, and they suspect "vapour lock". The aircraft took off out of the field and back to the aerodrome that evening. I'm assuming the report will be in next issue of Flight Safety Australia. I haven't been up in that particular aircraft since the incident, and I'd prefer not to for a while, or atleast not performing emergency training procedures in it.

"pumping the mixture" - is not in any emergency procedures I am familiar with?

I'm assuming he was trying to stabilize the engine as it was rough running. When your engine fails at 300ft after takeoff, I guess you just go into reaction mode. It all happened pretty quickly, it wasn't until just before we touch down that we were able to make a mayday call.

[The Messiah]

hoopdreams

Why did you not want to talk to the media? You had a perfect opportunity to say "here is a demonstration of how safe light aircraft are, even after a loss of our one and only engine we landed the aircraft safely without any damage".

But then when the media misreport aircraft incidents everyone gets on Prune and slags them off when the reason is the pilot wasn't prepared to even make comment.

Just ask yourself why did you jump fences to escape the media? Why?

[hoopdreams]

Well the owner of the airline came to meet us at the field to take us back to the airport. The instructor went with one of the mechanics and I went with the owner. The owner wanted keep the incident as low key as possibe, so it wouldn't reflect badly on the airline/school. So we basically jumped the fence into the next field to meet another mechanic on the main road to drive us back. I also didn't want my name to be stuck with this incident, as I heard from this forum, employers can discriminate against guys who have been in emergency situations. I guess at the time it just seemed like the best thing to do, plus I don't want my mum finding out about this, she still doesn't know:}

Btw I got that lesson free of charge.

[Feral FO]

I have seen the engine to LST. One piston was completely destroyed, apparently from striking the exhaust valve. Unusual for an engine with only approximately a hundred hours service.

Clearly the pilot is beyond reproach.

Surprisingly enough, after doing such a good job with the forced landing, the instructor is no longer employed. Certainly a bizarre turn of events, and the rumours at Bankstown are flying around regarding this one!

[das Uber Soldat]

I have seen the engine to LST. One piston was completely destroyed, apparently from striking the exhaust valve. Unusual for an engine with only approximately a hundred hours service.

Clearly the pilot is beyond reproach.

Surprisingly enough, after doing such a good job with the forced landing, the instructor is no longer employed. Certainly a bizarre turn of events, and the rumours at Bankstown are flying around regarding this one!

i completely fail to understand this. A CFI at a bankstown training school today told me exactly the same thing, that the pilot was fired for it.

Someone explain how a mechanical failure can be attributed to the instructor? Especially when it happened not long after takeoff? What do you have to do, takeoff with the mixture leaned to near idle cut off ?

[Feral FO]

To assume the pilot was in some way at fault would be a farce.

This would also assume that the employer was a reasonable, rational human being.

The latest scuttlebut is that a number of other staff walked out over this accident, and the treatment of the pilot (and others) involved. Most have subsequently returned. One was sacked. Another has subsequently resigned.

The plot thickens...

[Ultralights]

I too have heard this rumour, though i heard the word Strike involved, instead of walked out.

[Capt Mo]

I too have heard this rumour, though i heard the word Strike involved, instead of walked out.


I wouldnt consider this to have been a strike or a walk out. If the group of pilots were told they had been "stood down - effective immediately" that would indicate that the pilots had no option but to leave the building at the time. It would have been as simple as that.


This would also assume that the employer was a reasonable, rational human being

Most people could assure you, that he is not. And as a result of that impulsive, irrational behaviour, that school has lost many irreplaceable experienced instructors, a brilliant CGI and the most well respected CFI, many of them fired or resigned in the past year.

What a shame :sad:

[Squawk7700]

Well for those that are wondering if a pilot can contribute to an engine failure of this kind, the answer is yes. If a piston hits an exhaust valve this can usually only be caused by the valve ceasing as a result of perhaps lack of oil, overheating or some kind of lifter failure.

Jabs do have a tendency to overheat, particularly if flown at the documented maximum rate of climb, versus a faster climbout. If the aircraft was flown out fairly steeply for a prolonged period and temps were high a result like this could be expected, but not guaranteed. After a long taxi and slow climb this is conceivably possibly.

It is not uncommon for a J160 Jabiru to operate at redline CHT (with high oil temp) all day in 25 degree weather, particularly if heavily loaded due to pilot & pax weight and 130 litres of fuel on board. Most schools cruise around with 50-60 litres in the circuit for this reason. They are certainly not as robust as their larger GA counterparts and require specific operating knowledge.

Alternatively...

a. Valve Seat could have failed
b. Valve Spring could have failed
c. Fly-wheel bolts could have broken (and stuffed up the timing)

All of these could cause the valve to hit the piston.

There is a current Jab AD on the flywheel bolts, however I'd assume it was done, but then again if not done properly could have fallen off.

We shall wait and see the result...

[das Uber Soldat]

the student and instructor had the cowling open 30 mins before they took off, peering at the engine.

would be interested to hear what they were looking at/for.

I've also heard 90% of those who got told to walk are back at work now.

[GearOff]

Most likely trying to get the oil cap off. My experience with those plastic oil dipstick caps is that if the previous pilot is a bit over-zealous with their tightening, multigrips are a necessity, and often won't fit with the cowl left on.

[Desert Flower]

I had an EFATO in a C1150 in Canberra last week.

A C1150 huh - what type of aircraft is that? Presumably you meant a C150!

DF.

[hoopdreams]

A C1150 huh - what type of aircraft is that? Presumably you meant a C150!

DF.

C150B. Btw, why do I have to write more than 10 words post a message?

[Feral FO]

Yet another Jabiru had a complete engine failure at BK today. Luckily the pilot managed to return to land safely.

Strangely enough, this was a sistership of the other that force landed at Warwick farm last week, and operated by the same company, and with similar low hours.

One could wonder how two identical, low hour aeroplanes could suffer complete engine seizure so shortly after takeoff.

I wonder if the pilot's employment will be terminated like the previous chap.

The CP of this company must really be in a sweat - especially following the early demise of their BE76 two days ago in yet another incident.

Three accidents in ten days. Pilots terminated and resigning en-mass.

Clearly CASA should be sticking its nose in this one....

[das Uber Soldat]

really what time was that? I was at the airfield all day, didn't see much flying happening with the cloud at 800ft most of the day.

After the first Jab went in, they (the FI's) all stood together in regards to the safety of the jabs and got sacked (merely asking for a simple inspection of the fleet). Most of them eventually went back, (though the cfi got the proper sack, court case coming) and now another one goes down?

Surely they (the FI's) will draw the line somewhere, this is ridiculous! There is no way i'd play Russian roulette in a flight training organization like that. I rate my life higher than single engine instructor time ;)

[the.phantom.menace]

I thought the Feral FO would pounce on this one.

I too heard that a Jabiru went down today @ YSBK.

I wonder if the pilot's employment will be terminated like the previous chap.

The pilot of today's flight will not have his/her employment terminated. The circumstances are different to the previous incident (provided he/she doesn't quit, as the previos pilot did). From all accounts, the pilot of the previous Jabiru was engaged in a heated discussion with the CFI/CP. My understanding is that the discussion was not centred around placing blame on the instructor for the engine failure in anyway, shape or form. It was more of a communication issue. Once again, it is my understanding that he said to his CFI/CP "you're an f****** idiot, I quit". Now from where I stand, "I quit" means the pilot quit. He was not fired.

Pilots terminated and resigning en-mass.
It is my understanding that only 2 resignations have taken place post Warwick Farm incident. Two resignations does not constitute "en-mass". The two resignations were as a result of convenience. Both instructors concerned had applied to other organisations (1 applied prior to the incident), gained employment and THEN resigned from the school operating the Jabiru's. I seriously doubt they would have resigned from the school prior to securing other jobs. Had they not gained employment at the other school(s) they would not be seen to be taking the "moral high ground" that a number of people seem to think they have taken.

The CP of this company must really be in a sweat - especially following the early demise of their BE76 two days ago in yet another incident.

I bet the people from Jabiru are in more of a sweat than he is.

My sources tell me that the BE76 incident to which you refer was a mechanical issue, not pilot error and nothing that the CP/CFI could have done to prevent the incident.

Clearly CASA should be sticking its nose in this one....

I think you should let CASA do its job without offering anymore advice. CASA did not wait for the second engine failure to happen before "sticking its nose in". It was only after CASA and Jabiru inspections that their Jabiru's were allowed to fly again. So in effect CASA did bugger all.

Fair go Feral FO. You've been a member for 8 years and only 3 posts sinking the boot in on 1 thread! Maybe if you get over it and move across to the left seat you can become a Feral Captain!

[GearOff]

From all reports it sounds like the operator is going through a rough patch, but I would argue that these aeroplanes haven't been in service long enough to feel the effects of a systemic problem in the organisation, no matter how big. Two brand new engines failing in the space of two weeks? That's unheard of. CASA need to take action on this one before someone gets killed.

[das Uber Soldat]

the.phantom.menace: is there going to be a staff issue after this latest jab failure?

[Ultralights]

What exactly was the cause of this second failure? was it the same as the first one?

[FlugWeasel]

Didnt see the bit about the BE76 buried in the middle of all this on the first read.
What happened to the BE76 ? Was the damage serious ?

[J430]

So does anyone have any details on what the alleged second Jab engine failure was all about.

J:ok:

[squawk6969]

It is alleged by a rumour, even though i heard it came from an extremely reliable source...........

The cause of the first and maybe the second engine stopping was a Take Off conducted when the engine temps were already at or over the red line. Something to do with sitting on the ground for 3/4 hour in high 30 degree temps and not enough air into the engine.

Maybe that is why there was sackings walk outs or whatever.

In any case under extreme conditions etc it is always good airmanship to look after the engine, and if that means turning the thing off while sitting on the ground so be it. Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft.

Squawk6969

[Squawk7700]

Mr 6969 (no relation to 7700),

I can indeed confirm that your alleged rumour has officially been confirmed from a trusted source.

I can't believe that any qualified flight instructor with CPL and Instructor rating (which you would have to only *assume* comes with some form of trust...) that you would sit there in 30+ degrees with an engine clearly in the red in CHT and OIL temp, then proceed to takeoff anyway??? It's not rocket science to know that once over red-line there may as well not be any oil in the engine at all in terms of lubrication and it's only a matter of a minute or two and things will go horribly wrong.

Let's hope that the instructor DID in fact get the SACK and won't ever put the life of another student at risk again!

Regards, Squawk7700.

[squawk6969]

avi8r

Lets get the facts right, shall we..............so explain all the facts so the good folk out there can understand them then. Exactly what did the folk at Jabiru have to say about the reason for failure.

As for slagging off at the instructors concerned, that was not me, and nor am I related to S7700 either, so my comment about "Taking off when the temps are in the red is not really a nice thing to do to any aircraft. " is still relevant until such time you can prove that an over temp engine at takeoff was not the cause. Unless the gauges were completely inaccurate, you have to at least question the whole thing.

Modern day Jabiru and most other aircraft engines dont normally fail that easily, I know it can and does happen, but its very rare. The facts as explained to me where quite plausible.

Besides 45 minutes or something similar at YSBK on a stinking hot day would drive anyone over the edge!:\

SQUAWK6969

[DickyPearse]

Avi8r

IF Jabiru are making such changes wouldn't it be a sensible thing to make the cause known so other operators can avoid it?

The question is, if this was not a known issue at Jabiru, then what was this particular organisation doing as part of its SOP that was different to all other operators?

Not taking sides here, but a little more information would be useful to explain your position.

[squawk6969]

avi8r

Guilty till proven innocent? Everyone else here operates that way.......so whats your point:}

Being serious now, the engine was either too hot or it was not. Now maybe there are some modifications to cooling ducts or whatever, and POH's etc to make them more "pilot proof" (was tempting to say idiot proof, but in light of heated debate that may be taken in the wrong vain), so all that being said, of the thousands of others flying out there why these two?

You know plenty of other engine types have been cooked over the years too, so while I am not wanting to slag the pilots concerned, engines that are only a month or two old dont stop that readily! So there must be more to the story I think, and it all can not be blamed on the engines.

SQ6969

[GearOff]

Keep in mind that the majority of these Jabiru engines are being operated privately on the RAA or other equivalent international registers. Any failures that have occured in the past won't necessarily be known to us.

Additionally, the Jabiru 160 hasn't been used extensively in this environment before. The organisation concerned does a lot of hours with quick breaks between flights and often a 1-2km taxi to/from the runway. In good weather, it was a rare sight to see all their Jabirus on the ground at one time and this type of heavy use and longer taxi times is not what the aeroplanes were designed for. The reports of 45 minute taxis above are probably fairly exaggerated, but even a difference of 10 minutes ground time over 6 flights a day, quickly adds up to a lot of hours spent with minimal engine cooling over a period of months.

It is important to note that this is not the result of mishandling by the pilots/instructors - quite the opposite. The aeroplanes are used for ab initio flight training. Rolling runups, rushed checklists and fast taxiing would be totally unsafe. If that is what's required to avoid engine problems, the aeroplane needs to be redesigned before it is used again in that environment.

Interestingly, that is exactly what's happening.

As for taking off with gauges indicating over the red-line, that really doesn't sound very likely. I know enough about the organisation to know their pilots are fairly intolerant of unserviceabilities, and out of unfamiliarity with the Jabirus, were reluctant to fly them even when the gauges were green, let alone with any indication of a problem. Sounds like the 'alleged rumour' has grown from a temperature problem (fact) to pilots taking off with known unserviceabilities (fiction).

In the spirit of talking about the facts, does anybody know if the two CHT probes on these engines are on the back cylinders or the front?

[Squawk7700]

Mr Avi8tor, this type of problem in Jabiru's is *usually* caused by overheating. I can't see how you can think anything else.

Is it not a striking coincidence that we were experiencing high temperatures at the time? Is it possible that the aircraft did taxi for some 40+ minutes? If so, then yes, I can absolutely confirm that the aircraft was overheating. I know this, because all Jabiru's will overheat in those conditions, unless the engine was shut off.

There are literally hundreds of these aircraft and engines operating all over the world and when mis-treated this happens. They are manufactured to exact standards by an engine plant that cost many millions of dollars. They are absolutely identical and Jabiru are shipping out 24 aircraft and 85 engines a month!

The latest J160 that left the factory on Friday last week is EXACTLY the same as the ones that left around a year ago (I inspected it personally). Please tell me exactly what changes have been made to the engine that you speak of?

If you want to know why the engine failed, call Jabiru yourself and see what you find out. I'm tipping it's not a manufacturing defect! Here's the number 07 4155 2811.

Make the call, get your facts straight and post again tomorrow.

[das Uber Soldat]

Is it possible that the aircraft did taxi for some 40+ minutes?

Nope, I was right behind him. 10-15 mins, tops, including runups.

[Squawk7700]

das Uber Soldat, to answer your post that you have since deleted:

"He didn't taxi for 45 minutes. Infact, who would ever taxi for 45 minutes at bankstown? I would put a max time of 0.2, 12 minutes. You're almost always out of ysbk and well into the training area within 0.2 or 0.3."

R U there on the busy days? I've waited for 5-6+ aircraft in front of me lining up on the odd occasion and I've only been in there half a dozen times on my way though from Melbourne.

[VH-XXX]

If the temps were in the green like everyone (1 poster) is saying, then the problems that I heard resulted would be extremely rare and for it to happen on a similar aircraft within a week, whilst operating in normal temperatures would be an absolute rarity. That being said the failure on the day doesn't necessarily as a result of high temperatures on that particular day; the damage could have already been done. Even if it did get overheated, there's no guarantee that it would cease at that time.

I suspect at some stage, possibly in the very high recent temperatures that the aircraft has been operated beyond its' documented operating limitations (mind you, one such limitation is 39 degrees).

Keeping a good eye on temperatures is always a good idea and it's unlikely that it will be documented in the POH that the aircraft will overheat in certain conditions. It's not just limited to Jab's either; I have had the odd Cirrus SR20 overheating on me on certain days.

[bushy]

We operate in temperatures of up to 44 degrees. Not in Jab's though.

[das Uber Soldat]

I'm there every day. The school is right next to the runup bays, and it wasn't that busy that day. I've never had to wait 45 mins, maybe 30 mins at the most. The only time you might have to wait 45 mins is if there are circuit delays on the southern runway, and even then you just shutdown and tower will give you a light.

[Capt Mo]

I can indeed confirm that your alleged rumour has officially been confirmed from a trusted source.

:ugh: Honestly I cannot believe the crap I have read in the last page of this thread. Im curious SQ7700, who is this trusted source - and did they really confirm that the pilots have been operating outside of the aircraft's limitations? Because I know the operator and its pilots - and know that extreme caution has always been taken (especially being new to the fleet) and that the aircraft have not been operating outside of aircraft engine limitations and that they were not operated in high temperatures outside of the flight manual. Whether a manufacturing problem or not, to blame the pilots for these failures, without a clue as to how the aircraft were being operated is :mad: .

You have made it quite clear that you know the J160 well, and from sounds of things you are associated with Jabiru, if so then you would know that the initial findings of the first failure have not indicated poor handling. What caused these failures - I have no idea, but it would be nice to get the answers before people go and point a desperate finger at the pilots.

Perhaps the Jabs were never meant to be operated in a busy professional flight training organisation, after all weren't they designed for recreational flying?

Anyway, safe flying!

Capt Mo

[Squawk7700]

I spoke to the Jabiru engine department. You can't get more trusted than that.

07 4155 2811 will get you there directly and you can call for yourself if you wish.

[Squawk7700]

Perhaps there is confusion regarding the causes of both and which is which... by all means, if you have a cause other than what has been posted, post it. It's not like anyone got hurt, so it doesn't matter.

[aldee]

Can't comment on the Jab's but we are trialling an ultralight manufactured in Italy with a liquid cooled Rotax engine.One thing that surprises me is the absence of a coolant temp. gauge.
I understand that oil temp will eventually indicate core temperature of the engine and the relevance of CHT's, but I would have thought a coolant temp gauge would indicate more quickly any pending overheating issues which incidently this aircraft has had.
It also has a difficult to view / access coolant surge tank and relating back to my heavy machinery backround a low coolant level indicator wouldn't cost much or add much weight.
Other than these problems it is a well built fun flying machine.
Will be interesting to see the results of the 2 Jab. failures.

[Squawk7700]

The good thing about the Rotax 912 is that it can actually run without coolant at all, but generally not over 4,500rpm. The coolant is moreso to avoid shock cooling, rather than full-time cooling of the engine.

[YesTAM]

I occasionally fly a Sportstar with a rotax 912 and it has a cylinder head temp gauge - this is a surrogate for your coolant temp since its only the cylinder heads that are liquid cooled, the barrels are air cooled, and of course you get some cooling effect from your oil cooler as well..

[Crosshair]

Does anyone have any more news about the crash of VH-HYY, the Cirrus north of Hoxton Park? I'm interested to know about why the pilot stated a plan to use the ballistic chute, then apparently made a landing in a paddock. Did he change his mind or did the chute fail?

Crosshair

[Jenna Talia]

I heard that an attempt to deploy had occurred, however the aircraft was too low for a complete successful deployment. I understand (stand corrected) that one needs to be at least 2,500 feet for the system to correctly operate.
Perhaps any Cirrus drivers out there can elaborate.
JT

[Squawk7700]

Not sure if it's related, however CASA just mailed out an advisory for all Cirrus owners regarding fuel contamination which has caused damage in more than one Cirrus's... might be related?

I recall an earlier post suggesting that the aircraft had just been returned to service after a prop-strike.

[Crosshair]

From the SR22 POH:

***
Deployment Altitude

No minimum altitude for deployment has been set. This is because the
actual altitude loss during a particular deployment depends upon the
airplane’s airspeed, altitude and attitude at deployment as well as
other environmental factors. In all cases, however, the chances of a
successful deployment increase with altitude. As a guideline, the
demonstrated altitude loss from entry into a one-turn spin until under a
stabilized parachute is 920 feet.

Altitude loss from level flight deployments has been demonstrated at less than 400 feet. With these numbers in mind it might be useful to keep 2,000 feet AGL in mind as a cut-off decision altitude. Above 2,000 feet, there would normally be time to systematically assess and address the aircraft emergency.

Below 2,000 feet, the decision to activate the CAPS has to come
almost immediately in order to maximize the possibility of successful
deployment. At any altitude, once the CAPS is determined to be the
only alternative available for saving the aircraft occupants, deploy the
system without delay.
***

[TLAW]

I went booked a flight in a Jabiru from YSBK very recently. The regos of the two Jabirus is (are?) very similar, in fact the two aircraft are almost identical. Shortly after the aforementioned incident occurred, I was rung up and told that the aircraft is no longer available for hire, until after it has travelled to Queensland for an 'upgrade.' Something to do with the cooling system for the engine.

Coincidence?

[das Uber Soldat]

i wonder if they both started with lima sierra :}

[Miraz]

Re VH-HYY

From what I've heard over the last couple of weeks the chute did not deploy correctly - I've heard two versions ranging from the chute wrapping around the tail, the other that it did not deploy at all.

I also heard that the engine failure was caused by running out of fuel, probably brought on by a fuel leak.

[graham lea]

There are darkish marks on the side of the aircraft beside the hatch the rocket fired from, so that part worked, don't know if the 'chute opened though.. the aircraft certainly hit the deck hard!

[Squawk7700]

Me thinks the "cooling system" upgrade to the Jabiru is the rebuild of 1 or 2 or more cylinders with new valves!

There is no upgrade available for the J160 cooling system.

Sounds like they are blaming the damage on cooling.

I'm surprised that after everyone posted on here about how the engine wasn't overheated, that the operator has said that they are getting a cooling upgrade.

When the big aircraft operators realise that Jabs and smaller aircraft are the training machines of the future, hopefully everyone will become more educated on how to drive them.

[GearOff]

The Jab engine may well have been overheated - I don't think anybody is disputing that. The dispute was about whether the pilots took off with an indication of that, and whether the aeroplane was operated outside the operating handbook. Neither of those things are the case.

If there is some special technique required to fly these aeroplanes, where is it written in the POH? How else would pilots be educated?

It seems fairly clear that the aeroplane isn't designed for heavy training use. Two engine failures in a week with no prior indications is an abysmal record for any aircraft type. Think they'd be better off leaving recreational aeroplanes where they belong before someone gets killed.

[J430]

Gear Off,

"It seems fairly clear that the aeroplane isn't designed for heavy training use. Two engine failures in a week with no prior indications is an abysmal record for any aircraft type. Think they'd be better off leaving recreational aeroplanes where they belong before someone gets killed."

Mate keep ya gear on......if you had thought about this before opening your mouth, you may not have written such rubbish.:= These aircraft and engine (albeit older sisters) have been used for training for years, both RAA and GA VH training. So that comment does not cut the mustard. Some, logging several thousands of hours, one I can think of is probably over 7000.

If that kind of failure rate = stop use....nothing would fly. has been the odd week when 2 x B737's have crashed, should we stop flying them. Didn't think so.

Upon reflection I am sure you would agree.

J:ok:

[GearOff]

If 737s were single engine aeroplanes with less than 100 hours on the clock and 40% of an operator's fleet had suffered engine failures in the space of a week, I very much doubt they would be flying them!

I'm not disputing that they're a good aeroplane - whilst I haven't flown them many times, I actually think they're very good - but any attempt to diminish the significance of these events is seriously misguided. My argument is that if this is what happens when they are operated as per the operating handbook, clearly something is wrong.

It doesn't matter where the problem lies - whether it's a procedural change that needs to be made or a design change is irrelevant. The point is that if nothing is done, there's nothing preventing the same thing happening a third or fourth time, and whoever the poor bugger is that's flying it might not have any good options available to save the situation.

[StickWithTheTruth]

I can't believe some of the comments here!

Stop flying / ground an aircraft because there were 2 failure's in a short space of time? Get real! Sounds like a bunch of arm-chair Jabiru pilots!

As someone posted earlier there are hundreds of these aircraft flying and over 1,000 of their engines out there world wide in all conditions.

I know of a school that runs 6 of them and they weren't having engine failures at 100 hours. Last look two of them were over 1,600 hours, the other 2 around 1,200 and the remaining 2 were 800 and not one single engine issue from day 1, operating in temperatures up to and over 40 degrees. That being said there are many of them out there as J430 says with 5000 - 7000 hours and still going strong, albiet, probably not on the original engine. Bottom end on these engines can be as high as 4,500 hours, according to the head of the engine department.

The POH says 40 degrees maximum operating temperature at MTOW. There is however no mention or scale for operating at lower MTOW's.

I doubt that it was too hot for the aircraft.

As it's been said earlier, these engines come from a CAD / CAM design facility with state of the art milling machines, the likes of which are not used anywhere else in Australia. They are manufactured to exact tolerances and every one is identical.

A previous poster has suggested that he knew all about what happened, but when asked to call the factory for the facts, disappeared off the radar? What happened when he called, if he in fact did?

[QNH1013.2]

For those that are interested, I was at the factory last week. The Jabs in question are up there with modifications being made to the engine cowls to promote cooling of oil and the cylinder heads. Ducts and holes and scoops etc have been added all over the shop. I quizzed them on the cause of the cylinder failure's and the result was the way they were operated and the amount of time spent on the ground.

Personally I don't understand how so many of these aircraft are operating world wide in all temperatures exceeding their POH documented maximum, but yet 2 x J160's at Bankstown have been having problems. I know of a school that has clocked 5,000 hours in the last 3 years with nil issues, even with their highest hime J160 nearing 2,000 hours.

[TLAW]

QNH1013.2 - thanks for getting back and confirming that I'm not making this stuff up.

If these aeroplanes are the training aircraft of the future, and I believe they are, wouldn't a study into why these failures occurred be warranted? There's a lot of ostrich-like behaviour in this thread, for reasons best known to the participants.

Myself, I'd be quite happy to fly in a Jabiru from Bankstown tomorrow - but I also recognise there is some weak link in the chain here, and we owe it to future aviators to pin it down. Isn't that what accident investigation is all about?

[YesTAM]

I wonder what oil the two Jabs were using, whether it was the same and whether it has been checked for performance?

[J430]

Oils Ain't Oils Sol!

And that would be interesting. I am now using the semi synthetic Shell 15W-50 and the results seem good!, better temps even in summer, up to temp and pressure quicker, and the internals seem cleaner each inspection of valve gear.

Any idea what was used at YSBK?

J:ok:

[bentleg]

Does anyone have any more news about the crash of VH-HYY, the Cirrus north of Hoxton Park? I'm interested to know about why the pilot stated a plan to use the ballistic chute, then apparently made a landing in a paddock. Did he change his mind or did the chute fail?


Preliminary ATSB report here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/AAIR/pdf/aair200700361_001.pdf)

[Crosshair]

Thanks for posting the link to that report.

I guess the lesson to be drawn is one Cirrus has been promoting for a long time: Decide to use the recovery chute sooner rather than later in an emergency. Also, once you decide to use it, don't second-guess yourself.

As for the actual cause of the engine failure, the report kind of points the finger at the shop that did the bulk-strip that occurred seven flying hours before the failure. It goes to show the trust we place in our mechanics -- I would never have checked, in pre-flight inspection, the part that seems to have failed in this case.

And what kind of imbecile, upon seeing an aeroplane falling to earth with parts falling off it, not only leaves the scene without reporting the details of what he saw, but TAKES A PIECE OF WRECKAGE AS A SOUVENIR?

[turnarounds]

As for the actual cause of the engine failure, the report kind of points the finger at the shop that did the bulk-strip that occurred seven flying hours before the failure. It goes to show the trust we place in our mechanics -- I would never have checked, in pre-flight inspection, the part that seems to have failed in this case.

Why blame the shop that did the bulk strip??? I bet they did not fit the engine in the airframe.

Engine shop would have bulk stripped the engine and then shipped back to the workshop for re-installation to the airframe.

[Crosshair]

turnarounds: It's a good point.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Mmmm.

The photo of the T piece and location leads me to think that its an install shop issue rather than a bulk-strip shop issue.

Incorrect part (red plastic cap??), or incorrect torque setting - both seem to point to the install during fuel set-up.

Comments from qualified pruners?.

[Jnr380]

I remember my second PPL Nav, this is going back to maybe 2003.

Overflying YKTN to join circuit my instructor and myself noticed a plane half way down and half way off the RWY and not moving. We flew down and did a Precautionary search and Landing leg over the runway 200' AGL, we noticed that the plane was actually flipped upside down on the runway.

Obviously the instructor took over and landed the plane, the first thing i noticed is that it was a tail wheel plane and the cabin had to be smashed to get the pilot out.

The pilot walked away and i guess had to go to hospital due to neck complaints but yeah there is my story, thats really sticks out in my mind.


jnr380

[turnarounds]

Rich Fine Green ....

Agree see above!!

[VH-XXX]

You can't torque a plastic cap!

If I owned a $500k aircraft that was totalled and me and my passenger died because a mechanic or engine shop or fitter fit a 50c plastic cap instead of the proper metal one, heads would roll!

[Jnr380]

VH

Well i think the cap was already cracked after swinging over and smashing against the RWY the pilot managed to climb out from the hole and i climbed in to recover his personal accessories. If you doubt it fine im not going to argue with you..... but im just telling you what happened.

If anyone knows any further info can you please let me know all i remember about the pilot is he was from Lillydale aerodrome

Jnr380

[bentleg]

Jnr380

We are discussing the ATSB preliminary report on the accident to VH-HYY at Cecil Park NSW on 5/2/2007.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Jnr, that fat rolly you're puffing on - suggest you put it out, NOW!

Dr:cool:

[VH-XXX]

True, I'm also wondering what drugs Junior is on!

I was referring to the plastic cap screwed onto the fuel system. Perhaps JNR is talking about the Jabiru that went down.

[bentleg]

I think he's talking about his post re Kyneton. He possibly thought we were talking about his post. He probably did not read the ongoing discussion re HYY.

[Squawk7700]

Whale Oil Beef Hooked (said with slurred Irish Accent)

Jabiru have just released a service bulletin to upgrade J160's.

It's mandatory for aircraft being used for airwork.

http://www.auf.asn.au/airworthiness/JSB016-1.pdf

There you go Bankstown operators, do your best to overheat them now!