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Phil Space
21st Jan 2007, 01:41
Paris (Agencies)

Airbus announced on Saturday it has solved the cabling problems which have plagued production of the superjumbo A380 passenger jet.

Thai Airways International has contracted to buy several A380s. Singapore Airlines has committed to buy 19, with other customers including China Southern Airlines, Australia's Qantas, Malaysia Airlines, Korean Air and Virgin Atlantic.

"We have finished the electrical installation," said Airbus spokesman Tore Prang, confirming an earlier report in German magazine Focus.

"We have handed the aircraft to the cabin equipment team to install the first A380," he added.

Airbus chief executive Louis Gallois had said Wednesday that the wiring problems were close to being resolved, signalling good news for launch customer Singapore Airlines.

"The new electrical cabling for the first Airbus A380 intended for Singapore Airlines was installed last week," Gallois had told journalists, adding that the cabin equipment for the plane, which is in the northern German port city, would be installed next week.

"We are determined to complete this first delivery in October 2007, as we announced, and to prepare ourselves for the next deliveries in 2008," he added.

Managing director Fabrice Bregier said that the cabling for several aircraft would be completely re-installed and a temporary technical solution had been found to equip the first 25 aircraft.

From the beginning of 2008, the use of new wiring design software such as Catia V and Circe would help with the cabling of aircraft to be delivered from 2009.

Lancelot37
21st Jan 2007, 03:52
Paris (Agencies)

"We have finished the electrical installation," said Airbus spokesman Tore Prang, .

Prang! Not the best name to be working in the a/c industry. :)

Rainboe
21st Jan 2007, 06:02
It's most mysterious and puzzling. Whatever was the problem that it went on so long? ANd why completely re-do it? They have experience of large aeroplane wing wiring- the A340-600 isn't exactly tiny. I've never seen any explanation of what the flaws are. Is it covering for something else? But in an industry like this, the secret would get out. So wazzup Doc?

Thirty Eight South
21st Jan 2007, 07:01
It's not mysterious or puzzling as it's one of the best documented production delays in recent aeronautical history and has been particularly well covered by the accepted main stream aviation press.

The wiring in question was not specific to the wing; it was the fuselage wiring and the production problems associated with the design and manufacture which have been highlighted as the primary cause of the delays.

The secret would get out? Teams from Emirates and Singapore airlines (See Flight International) have both independantly audited the production process for potential delays-hardly the stuff of rumour and conjecture, surely.

wazzup Doc? Well, one possibility is that designing and building the largest commercial aircraft of the 21st century - which is the most technologically advanced aircraft around - has been a little more complicated than originally anticipated by the look of it.

It's back on track by all accounts, I look forward to seeing it in the near future

akerosid
21st Jan 2007, 07:31
If they've solved the wiring problems and are now sending the acft to Finkenwerder (January), why is it still going to take until October, the best part of eight months, to do the cabin installation?

FougaMagister
21st Jan 2007, 08:15
Teams from Emirates and Singapore airlines (See Flight International) have both independantly audited the production process for potential delays-hardly the stuff of rumour and conjecture, surely (...) It's back on track by all accounts, I look forward to seeing it in the near future

Qantas has also audited Airbus' A380 production process before placing a repeat order (the first) for 8 extra A380s. Looks like a vote of confidence in the programme after FedEx cancelled its 10 A380-800F order.

Cheers :cool:

Thirty Eight South
21st Jan 2007, 09:25
If they've solved the wiring problems and are now sending the acft to Finkenwerder (January), why is it still going to take until October, the best part of eight months, to do the cabin installation?

Dont ask me sport, I'm not a cabin installation bod. I'm busy drinking a few cold ones and watching the one dayers at the SCG, there's a clincher on with the Aussies on the field and the Kiwis bowling...

Looking at the information around, it's not going to take until October to install the cabin, It's going to take until October to deliver the A/C in Singapores' customised specifications: I'm not Sherlock Holmes, but the two things aren't the same dear Watson

747boy
21st Jan 2007, 09:38
If they've solved the wiring problems and are now sending the acft to Finkenwerder (January), why is it still going to take until October, the best part of eight months, to do the cabin installation?

I'm sure Airbus didn't want to risk having to announce another delay so have given themselves plenty of time to get it right.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they delivered it a little bit earlier than October. That would be a nice press release for them.

ARINC
21st Jan 2007, 10:45
Looking at the information around, it's not going to take until October to install the cabin, It's going to take until October to deliver the A/C in Singapores' customised specifications: I'm not Sherlock Holmes, but the two things aren't the same dear Watson

The cabin wiring is complete albeit for a few QA issues which are being ironed out as we speak. Following a stirring speech from Mario Heinen complete with buffet lunch, MSN003 was handed over to the cabin fit guys. ! The options have also now been limited to three distinct variations which will undoubtedly speed the process up.

Work has now started on MSN005 and MSN006

NutLoose
21st Jan 2007, 10:53
What about the rumoured problems with the stabilizers sending the strain gauges off the clock, the rumour was they had tried to beef it up but this had thrown the C of G out and they were struggling to resolve it......... heard tales of new A380's at the factory parked up with no stabs on them.... another rumour was they were looking at adding fins to the stabs................ Anyone?

Kato747
21st Jan 2007, 12:25
Well, one possibility is that designing and building the largest commercial aircraft of the 21st century - which is the most technologically advanced aircraft around - has been a little more complicated than originally anticipated by the look of it.



If that's the case, why have Airbus build it at all? I think you'll find the BASIC design of the B-777 still outstrips the A-380 on tech issues! & the Dreamliner will as well.

Heilhaavir
21st Jan 2007, 12:25
Qantas has also audited Airbus' A380 production process before placing a repeat order (the first) for 8 extra A380s. Looks like a vote of confidence in the programme after FedEx cancelled its 10 A380-800F order.
Cheers :cool:

Vote of confidence or just a very good "discounted" deal?

ARINC
21st Jan 2007, 12:35
Vote of confidence or just a very good "discounted" deal?

Qantas Management Bod, "So are these A380 safe, reliable and economical ?"

Airbus Sales Bod, "No Sir..there just cheap"

Qantas Management Bod, "Ok we're just an amateur outfit with no real idea about running an airline so we'll take 8 more"



Not really likely is it.....

Heilhaavir
21st Jan 2007, 12:42
Qantas Management Bod, "So are these A380 safe, reliable and economical ?"
Airbus Sales Bod, "No Sir..there just cheap"
Qantas Management Bod, "Ok we're just an amateur outfit with no real idea about running an airline so we'll take 8 more"

Not really likely is it.....
Mais ne vous fachez pas mon ami hahahahahahaha vous aurais-je touche?
Hey sweetiepie, it was only a question, but since you seem to be privy to the BOD's decision, what was the final offer?

keel beam
21st Jan 2007, 14:02
If the wiring problem was associated with cabin layouts of the passenger airlines, why were the freighters delayed?

Thirty Eight South
21st Jan 2007, 18:31
vous n'êtes pas très informé mon ami à devoir recourir à ranting adolecent..."that's your actual French" as the used to say on Round the Horne.

If the Europeans are as disorganised as you're implying, as oppossed to your colloquial discription, why is the Airbus safety record so good in comparision the north Americans?

I can rattle off 5 or 6 Boeings/MD accidents in the past 12 months from the top of my head without reverting to the ICAO stats...and that should give you a clue what I do for a crust

Touche

akerosid
21st Jan 2007, 19:13
Oddly enough, I was listening to Messrs. Horne, Williams and Paddick in the car today (sounds like a law firm, but much more fun!). However, in fairness to Boeing, most of the recent accidents can hardly be attributed to faults with their aircraft - indeed, (from what I can recall) the last five 737 hull losses have involved Indonesian registered aircraft, for example that freighter that undershot in fog at Kuching. Hardly Boeing's fault; the fact of the matter is that Boeing aircraft still outnumber Airbuses significantly.

I'm sure there are still technical issues to discuss, but at the end of the day, the aircraft was certified by the FAA and JAA at the end of last year, so they must have been satisfied that everything was as it should have been.

What are the three main versions available now?

Thirty Eight South
21st Jan 2007, 20:00
This threads got about as much life in it as a Norwegian Blue...I'm off fishing

Casper
21st Jan 2007, 20:01
Is anyone able to offer any info on NutLoose's questions re the rumoured stab problems?

Thirty Eight South
21st Jan 2007, 21:00
The trouble with rumours old chap, is that the same rule applies as for tips from Jockeys: the further away from the horses mouth the tip, the less you want to give it credence.
The bigbird was certified the by EASA in mid Dec 2006; the last time someone checked they had pretty stringent criteria for civil aircraft certification

Phil Space
22nd Jan 2007, 11:27
And without getting in to a slanging match the Yanks are not happy the Yuropeens might have just come up with a better aircraft. The shuttle looked great but let us not forget our Russions friends "agricultural" hardware kept the ISS supplied and functional when the US technology went t**s up.

With language and other cultural issues to overcome the A380 and Airbus is a credit to cross border co-operation.

Luckyguy
22nd Jan 2007, 12:13
"I think you should wait to see what happens until after the French elections in springtime before ordering the wizzjet 380 Scruggs"

"Why's that, old bean?"

"Because when the launch customers find that it doesn't quite live up to it's billing, in more ways than one, and the project becomes unviable due to the lack of firm orders, I think you'll find that the project is scrapped before the huge losses become huger losses"

Told to me reliably by a French person !

Another French triumph....... just like my car...... NOT !

Watch this space !

zed3
22nd Jan 2007, 12:31
With all those French jobs at stake , think not old bean . I believe we are stuck with this one .

saman
22nd Jan 2007, 13:17
Luckyguy and zed,
Will you please stop calling it a French aeroplane, displaying such a lack of knowledge doesn't help your street cred one iota!
FYI, the only bits made in Toulouse that we can think of are the engine pylons' structure. That's it.
Sure it's assembled in TLS and flight decks and centre sections are made in other French factories but most of the metal and plastic is Made In Britain or Germany or Spain.
It is a European based International programme. And Great Britain is part of Europe. Somehow find a way to cope with it.

archae86
22nd Jan 2007, 15:54
Sure it's assembled in TLS and flight decks and centre sections are made in other French factories but most of the metal and plastic is Made In Britain or Germany or Spain.

Indeed--not French only.
I can't find a numeric reference right now, but am quite sure published articles in Aviation Week & ST have given a rather high fraction of 380 component value to be Made in USA, though no major structural sections. Aside from engines, major suppliers include Goodrich, Alcoa, Honeywell, and Rockwell-Collins.

Taildragger67
22nd Jan 2007, 16:14
Qantas Management Bod, "So are these A380 safe, reliable and economical ?"

Airbus Sales Bod, "No Sir..there just cheap"

Qantas Management Bod, "Ok we're just an amateur outfit with no real idea about running an airline so we'll take 8 more"


Not really likely is it.....

A few more 'heavily discounted' smaller airframes as part of the compensation package plus re-orders on the same 'attractive' terms as the launch period sweeteners might've helped! :E

And a quick visit to the D&G boards might give you a guide as to the body of opinion on your last 'Qantas Management Bod' quote!

ARINC
22nd Jan 2007, 17:14
A few more 'heavily discounted' smaller airframes as part of the compensation package plus re-orders on the same 'attractive' terms as the launch period sweeteners might've helped! :E
And a quick visit to the D&G boards might give you a guide as to the body of opinion on your last 'Qantas Management Bod' quote!
oh dear...missed, point, You, the

It would be somewhat unworldly not to assume that AB of course gave them a good deal. The point being made was that this was not the SOLE reason for the QANTAS decision.

And a quick visit to the D&G boards might give you a guide as to the body of opinion on your last 'Qantas Management Bod' quote!

I hope your not honestly expecting me to form any sort of reasoned and INFORMED opinion on the capability or otherwise of an airline management, based ENTIRELY on what I read in a forum...I'm sure you don't. I would note that prior to the buy out people like Macquarie Bank are obliged to undertake due dilligence and the Airbus order would most certainly have been looked at very closely.

saman
22nd Jan 2007, 19:01
archae86,
I totally agree and should have made it more clear that it is truly International. Not just the four 'home' countries who do the bulk of the structure but just like every Airbus, it is built on world-wide skills and assets.
Most of the B team's products also rely on a world-wide spread of resource. Japan for big chunks of the 777 and 787 fuselages - just as a 'for instance'.
May the world keep working together!

Thirty Eight South
23rd Jan 2007, 02:56
[quote=Luckyguy;3082983]"I think you should wait to see what happens until after the French elections in springtime before ordering the wizzjet 380 Scruggs"

"Why's that, old bean?"

"Because when the launch customers find that it doesn't quite live up to it's billing, in more ways than one, and the project becomes unviable due to the lack of firm orders, I think you'll find that the project is scrapped before the huge losses become huger losses"



I'm watching luckyguy, but here's seven kind words of comfort: Bravo Oscar Lima Lima Oscar X-ray Sierra

As far as I'm aware the launch customers were closely involved in all aspects of certification and flight testing, as have the operating crews from all customer airlines; the a380 passenger add on orders are from Singapore and Qantas-they already know the operating envelope and by assocation the operating economic projections, maintenance ect

I can't fathom this anti Airbus theme that runs through the largley uninformed postings (although I am new to this racket)

Airbus have launched in the past 10 years the A330, A318, A340-500, A340-600 and the A380 (+ the A400M). Boeing in comparision has launched only the 787, the only new B A/C in 10 or 11 years.

In terms of putting A/C into the market, Airbus are clearly the market leading manufacturer for new A/C, including managing the process of design and development.

has anyone considered the implications for assembling a barrell section Carbon fib' fuselage with next to no mis-match tolerance allowance. What about damage toleranace, damage awareness, damage assessment , damage detection and damage repair for the 787?

What about the Faraday cage amongst other things.

what about the IFE,avionics ect contractors on the 787 having shared system interfaces but will not let the diferent manufacturers systems talk to ach other due the commercal and right protection reasons (i heard this about 3rd hand, so take it with a grain of salt, but it rings true enough)

answers on a post card

vapilot2004
23rd Jan 2007, 04:37
Shouldn't this thread be in JB (or perhaps another forum altogether?) :E

Taildragger67
23rd Jan 2007, 07:52
I would note that prior to the buy out people like Macquarie Bank are obliged to undertake due dilligence and the Airbus order would most certainly have been looked at very closely.

Certainly would. And you can just about hear Mossie slapping GD on the back and saying, "Well done, Dicko, you 5crewed those frogs into a compete corner on this one. And we still get to depreciate them from list price!"

IOW due dil has nought to do with it, as long as the contract can't be avoided later on.

On the other points:
- safety - on ehas to take any new aircraft on trust but I'll go with it. Airbus has too much to lose by pumping out knowingly unsafe airframes.
- reliability - the contract would presumably have performance guarantees which would require Airbus to compensate Qantas if reliability impacts network performance.
- economy - likewise.

Bobbsy
23rd Jan 2007, 12:20
In terms of putting A/C into the market, Airbus are clearly the market leading manufacturer for new A/C, including managing the process of design and development.


Having read the book "21st Century Jet" (and watched the TV series) Boeing's ability to "manage the process of design and development" is pretty impressive too.

...not "anti Airbus", just not wanting Boeing to be discarded so easily! Both companies make excellent aircraft and, as a layman, it seems wrong for professionals to become so polarised in their views.

Bobbsy

silverelise
23rd Jan 2007, 13:13
[quote=Luckyguy;3082983]what about the IFE,avionics ect contractors on the 787 having shared system interfaces but will not let the diferent manufacturers systems talk to ach other due the commercal and right protection reasons (i heard this about 3rd hand, so take it with a grain of salt, but it rings true enough)
Not quite sure what you mean by "shared interfaces but won't talk to each other" - in computer terms an interface is effectively a contract to allow two or more systems to talk to each other! Are you sure your third hand is not getting confused with the concept of having systems (particularly safety critical systems with crossover/redundancy) developed by different manufacturers to reduce the operational risk of simultaneous failure?

alexban
23rd Jan 2007, 13:41
38South ,are you a bit anti-B ,aren't you?
Let's see: A318 ( A319 cut by almost 3 m ) ,A330 -? ,A340-500,600 ( very much needed improvement for the 340-300 ) ,A380-remains to be seen ,A400....? All new,right?
What about the 737 NG ,the 747-400,the new 777 series ,and still to come 747-8 ,and 787 series?
If you want to learn more about them go here : http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/....don't just listen to third hand..:ugh:

Graybeard
23rd Jan 2007, 17:11
from AvWebFlash, 21 Jan:

"Unconfirmed reports from Europe say UPS is ready to cancel its A380 order. The order for 10 aircraft is Airbus’s last remaining for the freighter version."

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/787-full.html#194282

GB

Max Angle
23rd Jan 2007, 19:15
Having read the book "21st Century Jet" (and watched the TV series) Boeing's ability to "manage the process of design and development" is pretty impressive too.There is no doubt that the 777 program produced a very good aircraft but they did manage to overspend by about $2 billion during the development which continues to effect the profitability of the aircraft for Boeing. Got it out pretty much on time though.

18-Wheeler
23rd Jan 2007, 21:31
38South ,are you a bit anti-B ,aren't you?
Let's see: A318 ( A319 cut by almost 3 m ) ,A330 -? ,A340-500,600 ( very much needed improvement for the 340-300 ) ,A380-remains to be seen ,A400....? All new,right?
What about the 737 NG ,the 747-400,the new 777 series ,and still to come 747-8 ,and 787 series?
If you want to learn more about them go here : http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/....don't just listen to third hand..:ugh:


Pretty much right.
The A380 is only really the third aeroplane that Airbus has built.
They started with the A300, and the A330 & A340 are the same thing but with a stretch and modified wings, etc.
The A320 and its varients are also new.
The A380 is a new aiframe as well.

Three new planes in 30 years, that's all.

Thirty Eight South
24th Jan 2007, 21:55
it's more than 3 as they all have different type certs:
a300, a310, 320 range, 330-340, 340-500/600, a400 and a380 as far as i'm aware: all of the info's probably in Janes somewhere

so seven types, with common type varients for the derivitives. if you take everything in the past 10-12 years it's 318/319/321/330/340-500:600/a380, a400, a310 tanker transport, a330 multi role tanker transport, a380 F and 300-600F.
that's a lot of planes, a lot of design and development and a lot of practice at it, and there's the new stuff on the horizon in the shape of the a350xwb

ironbutt57
25th Jan 2007, 03:10
Well if content rather than assembly determine the "nationality" of a product...then most American brand automobiles are foreign as well...few things these days are 100% "home grown" probably a good thing...unless we hav world war-3 then nothing will will be serviceable in short order...:}

PlatinumFlyer
26th Jan 2007, 14:02
January 26, 2007
Airbus on Friday toned down expectations of an immediate solution to the technical glitches which delayed its A380 superjumbo project, saying wiring problems had been solved for the first aircraft only.

A German news report last week said that Airbus had solved the wiring installation problems, which delayed A380 deliveries by an average two years and drove the planemaker into the red.

Aviation watchers and some investors cheered the report, saying it closed the worst chapter in Airbus's 30 year history.

Gerhard Puttfarcken, head of Airbus's German operations, said Airbus had passed a key milestone in completing wiring for the first A380 to be delivered to Singapore Airlines in October and handling the transition to cabin installation.

But work was still going on to solve the long-term issues.

Airbus expects to start building a common design platform in the summer between its main French and German plants. It will be fully operational from the production of the 26th plane onwards.

"We are creating the conditions so that in future there will be one common platform from all the sites," Puttfarcken told a briefing for French journalists when asked to clarify the report.

EADS subsidiary Airbus has 16 sites in four countries including seven in Germany.

Engineers found last year that wiring designed in Hamburg could not be fitted into A380s on the assembly line in Toulouse.

Experts blamed Airbus's failure to introduce sophisticated 3D design tools in Hamburg at the same time as Toulouse.

That in part reflected the four nation planemaker's incomplete integration, according to a diagnosis carried out by outside industrialist Christian Streiff, who served briefly as Airbus CEO last year and launched its Power8 restructuring plan.

The A380 backlogs cost the Airbus parent some EUR5 billion euros (USD$6.45 billion) in sacrificed profits over four years and triggered a political storm in both France and Germany, where most of Airbus's 55,000 staff are based. Britain and Spain also have Airbus factories.

(Reuters)

jewitts
26th Jan 2007, 15:12
Anyone thought that the wiring problem is that it was too heavy?

ve3id
28th Jan 2007, 01:26
According to this article in the IEEE journal, the problems stem from the logistics of trying to do custom configurations for each customer, weight and balance problems from the difference between Cu and Al, and differences between versions of supposedly-similar design software in different divisions of Airbus Industrie.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jan07/4816

If you want electrical engineering information, go to the source!