Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.

[faiser]

Hi, guys
Korean Air has over 120 aircrafts and 2,000 pilots now.
This company is trying to go back to the late 1990's that called the period of "bloody crash" including three consecutive fatal accidents in Guam, London and Shanghai. We lost three Boeing 747's.
There is a young and prominent pilot who recently quitted not only his job, but dream also. Here is his story. Thank you for reading.
-----------------------------------------------------
This is only the begining.
F/O Ko, Sung Hyuk
Lee, **** ****, The Epitome of Bigotry.
This is the story about an F/O whose only dream was to fly
aircraft whether it is big or small but pinioned by those few who lack even the infinitesimal vestige of essential human virtue and modesty. No, on second thought, This is the story not only about me but other F/Os who might have been inflicted by the diabolical process that was proudly christened by the company as F/O Grading/Rating System. Yes, I know it is not just the grading system that made what happened to me take place but I am sure no one can deny that they came up with this brilliant process in order to sharpen their puny and blunt little sword against anyone they don’t like. All I want is the safety of other fellow pilots and their families. I would like to let everyone know why I tendered the resignation and one of the many reasons behind my agonized decision I had to make during the abysmally dark four months after the incident that I am going to tell.
In September 2006, I got paired up with Lee, ****-**** on a cargo flight destined to Singapore. There was no problem whatsoever during the first leg, however, two days later everything began when I showed up for the next leg headed for Incheon via Hochimin. Right after the departure from Hochimin the minute we leveled off at a cruise altitude, He pulled out a small piece of ragged paper out of his pocket and began to write down things which I thought were a not-so-objective tentative layout of his grade upon my overall performance. After a few second long pause, the real purpose of the crumpled paper surfaced with the words being put out of his mouth. The fact that, I didn’t make any call during the two day stay in Singapore must have made him really mad. He said, “You should know better than that.” “You should have called me( for breakfast, lunch, dinner and other various activities that do not have anything to do with my duty, I assume).” He turned into a nitpicker to use the petty minor errors--I am unable to find a proper expression for those-- that I made and he found them with unbelievable perseverance during the seven hour flight. Enumerating some of those trifles, on a maintenance log book I filled in the local date space with the year 2006 along with the date. The new FOM says the year is to be omitted. Yes, I flipped on his weather radar switch right before take off while he was initiating the take-off roll. He maintained that his FD and weather radar switches belong to his area of responsibility so I should not have touched them. The rest of the minor errors are of the same kind and of little worth mentioning. If he wanted to be so meticulous about regulations I wondered why he kept smoking throughout the flight with tons of fuel and precious but sometimes downright dangerous cargo. While the aircraft was being loaded in Hochimin he almost set the galley on fire by heating up his lunch in the oven without knowing that one of the local ground staff left one pack of instant porridge in the oven. Then he ran amuck with foam in his mouth trying to find the culprit who put it into the oven. But I think he was the one who pulled the trigger and the ground staff only provided him with a bullet. It is very ironic that an individual who wants to be very precise about regulations couldn’t care less about the real safety of the aircraft.
After the hellish 7 hour flight the hidden card he pulled out of his sleazy sleeve upon landing at Incheon airport was my company check coming up in Dec. I didn’t know that he was DLCP then but he said he was going to make sure I was going to “one-hundred-percent-fail” at the company check. I could not believe what I heard. As you all know one month before the company check ride everyone has to take the oral test from one of LCPs. I was assigned to a room right next to the one that had Lee, ****-****. I was alone with another examiner for the three hour test. Furthermore, the words that carved an indelible mark in my brain were “Have you flown with Captain Lee lately?” “Not getting along with LCPs would inevitably make your life with the company much harder.” He was telling me to “cozy up” not only to LCPs but to other captains by doing what all of us had usually been doing, going out for dinner with captains, drink as much beer and wine as they want, do whatever they want whenever they want, apple-polishing is the word of choice that came into my mind then. Lee, ****-**** had been putting his money where his sordid mouth was in order to really make sure I fail. This guy did seem to take no prisoners.
One month later I failed at the routine company check with another LCP of that ilk, who was PIC. It does not matter whether the check ride was fair or not but one thing is sure. The one I flew with on the check flight didn’t know any more than I did in terms of knowledge and during debriefing he was unable to answer my questions and offered me wrong answers. As I mentioned above at the beginning, this whole story is only one of the many reasons that made me decide to fold my wings, however, before I leave the company that I used to love, I would like to show you gangrenous canker that deepens and widens at a more rapid rate than ever. For the last few days I saw why this fatal infection wouldn’t heal; because of the unmitigated lies Lee, Yong-Sang is telling which the henchmen around him hypnotize themselves with. To make matters worse the company seems to think that this whole event was the result of a foolhardy decision made by one young F/O on a whim. I don’t want to redeem my status with the company, like I said, I don’t want to work as a pilot any more. This writing purports that I can shed even the faintest light on the abscess so that it does not fester any more and deeper. If the company does procrastinate any longer they might have to maim its limbs. Prosthesis can’t replace its original counterpart and remember the psychological damage it has to endure for the long years to come.

[Trentino]

If the above is true, it is exactly why I would never fly(on) an HL reg. aircraft.
After years of spending hours locked up in a small room with another person high above it all, i really wonder if people lose their minds.
there is no excuse for a captain to be like that, even if the F/O makes the GPWS go off a few times:E

my personal opinion of pilots of this nature is that they are ill and use
the cockpit as an avenue for torturing other people, i really believe
some of these guys who act like this kick their dog when they go home.
Time and time again its these types that bend metal.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

.. but does it help if western pilots arrive and try to make eastern pilots fly the western way, or should we be helping them to fly the eastern way, but make it safer? Discuss, with particular attention to the fact that eastern pilots have no understanding of or feel for the 'western way'.

[bomarc]

Am I allowed to use the word : ASSHOLE on this forum...if not, please edit it out to read A!@#$%^&*()


Now, there are pilots like that all over the world...not just in Korea. There are pilots who break the rules in their own flying, yet suck up enough to become training pilots/instructors or whatever you like to call them. Excellence is its own reward and you should be excellent for your own reasons, no one elses

My advice to the copilot: this is the way it is many places...search for another job somewhere else and when you do get to be captain, be kind and like a good teacher...don't be a teacher who rapes children.


I hope this translates well to you native language.

[fox niner]

Hi there Ko Sung Hyuk,

The captain you flew with and caused you so much harassment has a serious attitude problem.
He probably has a miserable life, is not loved by his relatives and friends. The loser is trying to hold on to the only thing he has left, and that's his EGO.

As stated in a previous posting, you will find assholes like this in any profession. I hope you will find a suitable (flying) way out of this.....

[b17heavy]

Excellence is its own reward. Very true and nice to hear someone write along those lines – its been a long time since I’ve heard that. Only a shame that it doesn’t come out more often in the right way. More often then not excellence appears to mean trying to out do the other guy….(or girl as it is now)

It is in all levels of aviation and is unfortunate that this kind of thing manifests its self. I have seen crew fall foul of such things and it is not nice. I would not and could not treat someone who I fly with in such a manner.

[bomarc]

B17heavy

thanks for the words about excellence. that should be its own thread someday!

[con-pilot]

Oh dear, one more time here in Pprune we have a poor FO with hurt feelings. Of course we do not get to see the side of the Captain, just the poor very low time FO's side of the story.

Sorry, no tears from me.

[GlueBall]

To be sure: Until we hear the other side of the story, it's just another F/O wonder boy wanna-be-captain-early sob story. :ooh:

[Trentino]

This is a situation where I believe the Captain is completely and utterly wrong.
Fighting with a crewmember is fine on a water vessel at 13kts.Not at 450
I dont care how incompetent a crew member is, being so outwardly caustic
raises the capts bloodpressure and makes the F/O feel every move he makes is wrong. Now you have 2 pilots operating marginally at best.

I feel bad for the F/O because (now im assuming here) For him to be in the right seat at KE he must be able to keep the blue side up.

I once had a flight with a certain person who was soo damn rude and purely evil that I told him 'if your so perfect its your ****ing airplane' Gave him the controls and let him fumble his way home. Radios and all...

Sometimes you need to stick up for yourself.

Ill end this post with this..
A pilots certificate is a license for A**holes to be BIGGER A**holes

[angryblackman]

As a Korean copilot, I would sue Korean Airlines and the LCP in court.
I know in Korea you won't win, but that's not the point. You will make the situation a public situation and embarrass Korean Airlines.

Korean Airlines will end up firing the Captain for causing the embarassing situation in an effort to SAVE FACE. Which is very important in Eastern cultures.

You have nothing to loose and everything to gain from your forced resignation.

[simyoke]

Hello, I am the F/O who wrote the long and rather boring original message

and thank you very much for allowing your precious time to read my

humble writing let alone for spending time to write guys....

One thing that I would like to tell you is that I specifically requested that the

problematic captain turn up for cross-examination with me present if he thought I

plastered the writing with things that he did not do or agree to....but he would not show

up....The reason for my request was that I was told he chimed in with

his own story that was exact antithesis of mine...I am now more than willing to take a

lie-detector test...

[Huck]

One more hazard of the two-man crew - no witnesses....

[xsbank]

I know that sometimes you end up stuck in the cockpit with someone you would just as soon kill, but there has to be a paper trail before they can just can you. Presumably this FO has flown with others? It seems like there should be more to this story than one FO cratering his career because of one guy he had a problem with?

[Trentino]

Good point xsbank, the truth will come to light.
Anyway, fighting in the cockpit is bad form.

[Wanderin_dave]

One more hazard of the two-man crew - no witnesses....

What about CVR?

[Sunfish]

What about circuit breaker?....And I can add that doing same at 14 knots on a ship is just as dangerous as 450 knots.

[boeing-man]

The captain might not have been ideal but the FO certainly has to grow up and see what the real world is....

Best of luck to all.

[simyoke]

I meant to say this for Boeing man.....

The main reason that I left Korean Air is of course not the capt. but my health problem. I guess I am old enough to know what the real world is like:=. The fact that Korean Air Crew Union website has been flooded with tons of similar messages from many copilots with simliar experiences (a lot of which involve the same capt.) since I first posted my message bears me out ,I presume. Some of the fatal crashes happened years ago as most of us know, were closely related to the oppressive cockpit ambience requiring many F/Os be only submissive to the captains, which rendred copilots unable to do their job. This is not just me crying for a cuddly teddy bear but many more trying to stave off future accidents. After all, we are doing this for a living aren't we?

[faiser]

I know that sometimes you end up stuck in the cockpit with someone you would just as soon kill, but there has to be a paper trail before they can just can you. Presumably this FO has flown with others? It seems like there should be more to this story than one FO cratering his career because of one guy he had a problem with?

A lot of F/Os in Korean Air thinking of moving to another airlines. Some of them executed their Exodus already with sueing KAL and knowing that it will be tough.

The situation Simyoke is in that's not only he has,but most of FOs in Korean Air might have had, are having and will have been. I'm 100 % sure that.:*

One more example, one of the pilots who left that company, who was supposed to get promoted as a captain. Why? Since he is sick and tired with the failure of Korean air's poor management so as to leave his home even though he almost went through his hardship.

[faiser]

The captain might not have been ideal but the FO certainly has to grow up and see what the real world is....

Best of luck to all.

I respect your thoughtful concerns.
I have come up with an idea when I got your reply.
What is the real world that The pilots are supposed to see.
Being beaten by the Mafia or given up arguing with frauds?

[nolimitholdem]

.. but does it help if western pilots arrive and try to make eastern pilots fly the western way, or should we be helping them to fly the eastern way, but make it safer? Discuss, with particular attention to the fact that eastern pilots have no understanding of or feel for the 'western way'.
BWAHAHAHAHAH!!
And what, pray tell, is the "western way" of flying vs the "eastern way"? Keeping it upright vs turning it into a smoking hole, which as mentioned KAL at one point did with regularity? Actually being able to fly an aircraft with hands and feet vs rote and repetition? Problem solving and CRM vs theoretical knowledge and face-saving?
Sorry for the thread creep, but I have too many colleagues flying for other "eastern" carriers, for example a certain TPE-based one, where the left seat can barely keep the wings level without their "western"-style right-seat-nanny, to let THAT comment go unchallenged...:=
Carry on.

[boeing-man]

I respect your thoughtful concerns.
I have come up with an idea when I got your reply.
What is the real world that The pilots are supposed to see.
Being beaten by the Mafia or given up arguing with frauds?

The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning!:} )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'

As always, best to all.

[turtleneck]

don't tell me that you didn't know anything about this outfit before you joined, it has been written on all walls. you sound just like the guys surprised beeing managed by a mentally sick ceo at qr or having to do crm at home in solitary confinement and on line for ek.
these companies and a lot of their cp's or tri/e's simply have a archaic perception of how to run professional airline operations. every now and then a smokin hole gives a pause to this scam, but it continues shortly after as long as their countries are run the same way.

[simyoke]

The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning!:} )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'

As always, best to all.

Hi, it is me again ,the F/O who flew with the captain. I would like to add just a couple of words before the captain's name. Diplomatically challenged. And Faiser wasn't asking for the definition of your so called REAL WORLD..

[simyoke]

don't tell me that you didn't know anything about this outfit before you joined, it has been written on all walls. you sound just like the guys surprised beeing managed by a mentally sick ceo at qr or having to do crm at home in solitary confinement and on line for ek.
these companies and a lot of their cp's or tri/e's simply have a archaic perception of how to run professional airline operations. every now and then a smokin hole gives a pause to this scam, but it continues shortly after as long as their countries are run the same way.

You can say that again. I knew it all along...but what would you do if the situation gets bad enough to comprimise the safety of an aircraft?

[manincrz2937]

First of all,
I feel really sorry for F/O who folded his wings.

It is a shame and disgrace for Korean Pilot culture. But I saw it several times.
No body can deny that there is a problem in culture not only in KAL but also most of company in Korea.

F/O is treated like a servant for captain like old time in military. It was the way they used to live.
Some of captain even can’t do shopping without F/O. why? Ha Ha Ha……Well…what do you think?

The first mission for F/O in destination?
He should rent a car for captain. Hard to believe? Well…… I know it is non sense but it is true.

The most important thing in line operation is not your flying skill but your service skill to captain.

Call them (especially when you are in training) for every meal time.
Follow wherever captain want to go.
You should even cook in your hotel room when they couldn’t find Korean restaurant.
( Thanks for the instant rice. It save one of F/O duty in layover.!!!! )

If you can satisfy captain then it doesn’t matter whether you drink all night before flight. Well…must be a tired flight because captain will sleep all the way on the pacific and you should do everything on your duty. But what the hell……You give good impression from your service to captain and they will evaluate you as a nice F/O and good personality. NO PROBLEM IN LINE OPERATION.

I don’t know where it comes from.
Funny thing is KAL’s neighborhood doesn’t make any difference. (or worse?)

Western pilot?
Well……..old Chinese said “if you are playing around black color, you color will be changed to black”
It is not a problem of individual person but a problem of total system. The CRM never be in place until the last F/O is treated as a REAL PILOT.

There were……cause I’m not sure it is still exist or not…….annual report against expat captain’s attitude which company asked to selected local pilot.

Be careful. When KAL or AAR doesn’t need anymore expat pilots, that report will be an axe on your foot.
Sorry bro, what you have gone through. But never give up. You may can get another airplane in some better place out of Korea.

Good luck.

[faiser]

The real world FOs are supposed to see is 'learning how to sell your ideas DIPLOMATICALLY to the guy on the left (requires years of learning!:} )' in the idea that when he becomes a captain, he will be able to 'have it his way but still make the FO comfortable and supportive of it'
As always, best to all.
Thank you for the definition of the real world.
It's been 7 years to be an FO. I've never thought of each captain who flew with me is an object which needs diplomatic approach or conversation to set the tone for safety or good CRM through my career.
I don't like redundancy ,but as you know well ,I'd like to mention that proper call-outs and advices come out from the good relationship between two crew-the captain and FO-especially from FOs. We do not have enough time to share our own ideas diplomatically when we face to go around. :ugh:
Have a good one, Sir.

[galdian]

nolimitholdem
Must say firstly I am surprised the "politically correct police" haven't yet tried to knee-cap you regarding your post.
Secondly it is very seldom a post simply impresses the hell out of me so I have to respond - short, succinct, straightforward and sooooo true! :D

It comes down to your own personal outlook - I believe CRM is the single greatest step forward (in terms of human factors) in aviation over the last 30 years.
The culture of Asia is resistent because of their history; from my limited experience I believe Japan is 15-20 years away from achieving real overall benefits from the CRM concept, Korea 25-40 years away and China ???
Does this mean all "western" pilots accept, and work well with, CRM??
Absolutely not - however those that do not are in the minority.
Does this mean all "eastern" pilots reject, and fail to see the benefits in, CRM??
Absolutely not - however (sadly) those that do (or are allowed to) are also in the minority.
Does this require leadership from the management groups in Asia to push this concept simply to achieve better safety - yes.
Will it happen - maybe, but veeeerly slowly as the "old" mentality has to move out to allow the "new" mentality in and that also assumes that the concept of CRM has been allowed to be considered and thought about.

I have always found it (sadly) amuseing - it wasn't the management/leadership group in KAL who decided they were killing too many passengers and try to rectify this (unfortunate!) position but the insurance companies who forced them!

However I digress and/or ramble - loved the post !
galdian

[Kit d'Rection KG]

It comes down to your own personal outlook - I believe CRM is the single greatest step forward (in terms of human factors) in aviation over the last 30 years.

Sadly, that's just not true. Not even nearly true. The reduction in the accident rate is down to replacing older 'less safe' aircraft and environments with newer 'safer' ones. CRM has had no appreciable impact on the accident rate.

(Sorry, this is easy to demonstrate with graphs, not so straightforward to do in words).

[Anotherflapoperator]

I think I have to say I disagree totally with your last post, Sir.

CRM in all it's variations has made masive difference to the way many airlines fly today. The list of accidents where poor CRM led to the last link in the chain are widespread.

Granted, the increased technology of modern aircraft is wonderful (not that I've experienced it yet being stuck on an old dog), but unless you autoland every time, you still need stick and rudder skills, especially in chanllenging weather conditions. It's these times, when the second pair of eyes, allowed to point out errors and help the operation is so vital.

IMHO, the only way to change Far Eastern practices is to employ a lot of Expat Skippers to allow the young F/Os to flourish and gain the confidence and ability to do their job properly. Perhaps some nice Aussie F/Os to let the old school local Captains know just what they can do with their luggage and car rental paperwork helps too. Unfortunately, all this MUST come from Management, and putting F/Os on CRM courses as part of their training and then forcing them to work under traditional practices is just nasty, and would cause many cases like the one topping this thread.

You can roll a -400 into the ground just as easily as a 707, and the F/O telling the P1 he's got it wrong in time is still the only way to prevent these kind of accidents.

Simyoke, Faiser, best of luck in your future careers, guys with your attitude (irrespective of how well you know your manuals and hand fly) is crucial to maintaining an undecurrent of CRM skills. Don't give up.

[b17heavy]

Not sure I agree Kit. Last year of the 26 fatal airline crashes the main causal factor of 11 was human factors, 5 CFIT, 6 tec/maint and 4 unknown. Surely the better the crew function together the less likely that human factors are to play a role in such disasters happening.

We all fly and most of us have flown with people we don’t like, but being professional we deal with it. However there are times when it is all but impossible to do so and it does compromise the safety of the flight.

CRM, getting on with people, understanding peoples motivations – what ever you want to call it, does help. The openness to be able to say – “I’m not sure that is right…” is of massive importance.

The reduction of the accident rate has generally fallen since the 1950s due to more than just replacing older aircraft. Yes technology has improved, but so has training and a part of that is CRM. If I remember correctly, up until last year CFIT was the leading cause of ac fatalities. In the US, CAST felt that CRM was a valuable part of avoiding this and thus was included in CRM training. It is to soon to say if this is a direct link but I’m sure it didn’t hurt.

I am not stating that CRM is a panacea for all ills of the flight deck, but can make a flight pass with greater ease. :ok:

[simyoke]

Yes, CRM is extremely important however, unless the highest level of mutual respect comes before CRM it won't do any good.

[NG_Kaptain]

simyoke,
Have you considered joining some of your compatriots in Etihad or Emirates? Just did an assesment with one of your compatriots and he was hired with one of the middle east airlines.
Cheers
NG

[galdian]

Kit
Happy to agree to disagree however infairness I did say in terms of "human factors."
Certainly new and improved equipment and hardware (aircraft, radar services etc) have had a positive impact and so, I maintain, has the concept of CRM.

[manincrz2937]

Well…….
CRM is surely important factor.
But don’t get me wrong.

I don’t think hiring more western expat captain doesn’t help anything. Cause you are an outsider and don’t have to fly into fire.
I appreciated for tons of advices from civilized western mind expat captains who work in troubled Eastern airliners.
But funny thing is when they approach troubled instructor pilot or chief pilot, they changed their face and doesn’t say much about CRM against stubborn old Eastern IP or LCP.
If you against them, you should pack your bag again.

Let’s me tell you something.

I think more than half of (or most of) F/O in KAL or AAR were trained their initial course from civilian flight school( US, Australia…..). Naturally they used to fly in civilized western way.
But their dream about airline pilot is totally collapsed when they stepped in line operation. :ugh:

It must be a another problem of hegemony in Korean aviation society.

Don’t preach CRM to poor F/O who already falls in desperation. If you want to say CRM,go to IP, LCP or Management.

Paradoxically There were no problem in CRM (except crash some old airplane ) for creepy IP, LCP until western educated F/O has big portion of crew.
“Yes, Sir” was the only correct reply what F/O can tell.
Can you understand what I mean?

I guess another way to solve this problem is lower western airlines bar like Korea.

Why we need JAA or CAA license even though there is ICAO license? Why we need European passport to work? Why we should have working permit even before we have job in USA or other country?
If we can do that, I also be a good idea that millions of expat F/Os or Captains work with old fashioned guys. It will be really interesting!

I know it will never happen. It is not easy matter. And beyond our subject. ha ha ha…..:p

but If we can exchange pilot easily, maybe the Korean government and management will realize something.


And bear in mind. Not like western pilot, if Korean pilot leave KAL or AAR, they never can go back to Korea. Be careful to say “then why don’t you leave?” it means he should stay out of korea rest of his life. The consequence is not simple for them.

[mcdoer]

Mr. Ko, Sung Hyuk,

I read with interest, your reason for resigning from KAL and would like to make a comment: It appears from your first letter to PPRUNE that Capt. Lee gave you a bad time primarily because you did not phone him in his room and ask him to go out to eat and drink with you. If that was the ONLY reason for his actions, despicable as they were, you as a Korean national were no doubt aware that the KAL hierarchy demanded that you show respect for your captain by complying with the established system, right or wrong. My questions to you are, why did you not call him, even to make an excuse such as you were not feeling well and what did you tell him when he told you that you should have called him? Did you apologize for causing him to lose face or were you so tired of the ‘system’ that you lost respect for him and antagonized him?

For readers of my comments please understand that I am not condoning Capt. Lee’s actions. He displayed very poor CRM, abused his Line Check Pilot (LCP) authority and deceitfully influenced another LCP to look unfavorably on Mr. Ko during a subsequent line check. In my opinion Capt. Lee should be fired as an LCP, period.

[Panama Jack]

<sigh>, I guess the days of the chameleon First Officer are far from over. :sad:

[stratocumulus]

:ugh: Cant be serious.and I thought I am a pain in the rear end

[F900EX]

Mr. Ko, Sung Hyuk,

I read with interest, your reason for resigning from KAL and would like to make a comment: It appears from your first letter to PPRUNE that Capt. Lee gave you a bad time primarily because you did not phone him in his room and ask him to go out to eat and drink with you. If that was the ONLY reason for his actions, despicable as they were, you as a Korean national were no doubt aware that the KAL hierarchy demanded that you show respect for your captain by complying with the established system, right or wrong. My questions to you are, why did you not call him, even to make an excuse such as you were not feeling well and what did you tell him when he told you that you should have called him? Did you apologize for causing him to lose face or were you so tired of the ‘system’ that you lost respect for him and antagonized him?

For readers of my comments please understand that I am not condoning Capt. Lee’s actions. He displayed very poor CRM, abused his Line Check Pilot (LCP) authority and deceitfully influenced another LCP to look unfavorably on Mr. Ko during a subsequent line check. In my opinion Capt. Lee should be fired as an LCP, period.



Very good point. As you say, if there is an established cultural system in place then you have little choice if you want to keep your job. Even if it means brown nosing.

[mcdoer]

Yeah Jack, unfortunately for the KAL pilots, that is the real world.:hmm:

[Mash4077]

It's true there are always 2 sides to the story, however ....

1) No matter how bad the trainee may or not have been, the a/c is not the place to resolve such matters. Every credible and mature airline has processes to handle such issues.

2) Again no matter how bad or not the trainee is the training captain should have the skill and spare capacity to handle the problems with ease - that's his job. Sadly most airlines get it wrong and put pilots into a training position in the aircraft before they've honed their craft in the classroom or sim.

3) Korean Air recently issued a memo to all it's trainer to tell them NOT to socialise with trainees. I've had this confirmed by both Korean and Western check pilots at KAL.

4) KAL has some excellent training captains. It also has many that show the traits described by the F/O in question. Nitpicking is an extremely commonly used phrase here. Sadly it'll be many years before the "old guard" are replaced by the "new and enlightened" now occupying the right hand seat. (Just for the record, I'm not in the RHS but respect everyone of these F/Os I've met).

I wish the F/O in question every success.

[mcdoer]

I didn't say it was right, only that it seems to be the way of life within certain factions (read old, military pilots) at KAL. I suspect that it will take time to get rid of the 'old guard' in order to move closer to the 21st century. I hear that KAL is trying to produce more 'harmony in the cockpit'. The first thing they should do is to put more foreign captains in as LCP's but there still is the military mafia to overcome. Good luck on that - and good luck to all the F/O's.

[A-3TWENTY]

Korean cops aree never happy.

I could realize through out this thread they don`t agree with the system and they don`t like to fly with their Captains ( Koreans).

When they fly with an expat they isolate the poor guy .There are stories of wo nationals doing a pre-flight briefing in their language and asking to the expat in the end if he agreed...
It is normal an expat to fly 25 hours back and forth to NY without changing one word with his fellow cop.
AND if the expat mistake one call out which was supposed to be "cross-check" for simply "check" , this may be considered a serious violation to the SOP`s and reported to management .

So , what I can conclude is that korean Cops like nobody...

[Pollards]

This is a fascinating insight into the cultural differences debate and for my money an example of PPRUNE at its best!
From a "Western" perspective I guess, as I have no experience of "Eastern" flying culture, there are plenty of elements here that are downright alien to our way of doing things, but the job still gets done!
We dont have to look far though to identify plenty of cultural differences between different backgrounds/nationalities in the West, I cite for example how up-tight we tend to get with R/T phraseology in the UK, and how relaxed our visitors from over the pond can be, but who invented mass air travel and where do more people fly more miles by air?
To get to the point, CRM is like manners, voluntary. On check or under observation we all know what is expected and tend to conform with accepted best practice, but out on the line individuals quickly revert to type.
If an individual does not accept the benefit of crew co-operation, or feels that they have all the answers, just telling them that they are wrong will not change their behaviour. Only by persuasion and by discussion with their peers and those they respect will the message get through.
That is where we often fall short, to be truly effective the basic tennents of CRM (Communicaton, Leadership, Error Management, Stress/Fatigue management, Situational Awareness and Decision Making) should also ;) be demonstrated by management.
And that is where those with the big Egos reside.;)

[cap10lobo]

This is a sad way some airlines(awkwardly many eastern..)are run from management pilots. Also some tendency from people who are really insecure.

I´m happy to live and work in totaly different enviroment!

[stator vane]

here i am considering coming to KAL on the B737-800 as expat captain.

i was at asiana 96-98 and can see how faiser could be telling the gospel truth. sorry that your health pressed you into leaving. i remembered when i first checked out as first officer on the 737-200 in alaska, i had a flight with a real ass of a captain and wanted to quit so bad, but i had just signed on a house purchase and needed the money very badly! now i are a captain... and still need the money.

i must make my decision tonight for the march 19 class.

good luck

[captjns]

I interviewed with KAL in 11/06. I was offered a DEC position in 12/06. After considering the fundamental issues such as QOL and one's dignity versus the $$$$, I declined their offer.

Not withstanding the NASA medical, the interview with the pilot board was absurd to say the least. You wait outside of a room, await for a bell and viola, you are granted entrance to the KAL Inner Sanctum. Screw that crap! I don’t care… the tinker’s little bell was an indication of KAL’s culture and training philosophy… “subservience”. I know, I know... the old saying goes, "Cooperate and Graduate" applies in most circumstances, however, IMHO, one’s dignity to and the requirement to sign over your soul in order to successfully complete the training just isn’t worth it.

I would hope that the same KAL philosophy applies to the simulator portion of the training, since Boeing-Alteon provides that portion of the training.

By the way, while in training, and on duty, you will be a prisoner, er, be a resident of the Inchon Hyatt Regency Hotel. The accommodation are superior, but the cost for your existence along with a 50% discount is still rather steep.

Again, my QOL and self dignity far outweigh the $$$$$, which when added up really is not all that great compared to other contracts out there... again IMHO.

Oh by the way you’ll submit to their NASA medicals every six months... so good luck.

[019360]

Oh dear, is the world not quite perfect for you? I guess coming as you do from NYC everywhere else must be quite a let down. Maybe those of us used to living with not quite perfection are better off by far that you stuck to your lofty ideals and didn't join us.

And as for being a prisoner at the Hyatt...I guess that coming from NYC you might not recgnize a quality hotel if you fell over one....and not only that,you can go for a long walk at night without getting mugged or getting cold from inadvertently standing in the shadow of such a giant ego.

Berating something you know nothing about on the basis of a 3 day visit might be common practice to you....but it is also a good clue as to why the rest of the world is just as happy not to be saddled with some Americans as colleagues. You come from a fine country...keep your views to yourself and you will materially improve its image.

[clunckdriver]

Having instructed KAL capts I long ago decided not to use my free travel on KAL, one has to be there to understand how their culture invades good flight deck procedures, I still have a few friends teaching over there, had they not bought houses for women the dont like they would be long gone, the solution will only come when KAL understand that they must get these pilots out of the flight deck and replace them with those who can seperate their culture from the job at hand, untill then the situation will not improve.

[captjns]

019360, you are pardon the term, are a putz. From your comments about NYC, its evident that you are from the shallow end of the gene pool and don't get out very much.

When did PPrune make you the official censor or critic of view points of opinions expressed within this forum?

FYI, I do know what I am talking about. I don't know what your limited back ground is, nor do I care to. I'm happy that I can be discriminating when it comes to accepting positions of employment, Perhaps, you too, when you mature, may be in the same position as most adults that can decline offers for employment, that may not meet with your standards.

Happy flying sir putz, er I mean 019360... I'm just not good with names.

As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails.

[mcdoer]

captjns, you said,

"As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails."

Who are the Whalers and where did you get your information that the majority of KAL captains are expats. That can't be further from the truth and the western cockpit only prevails when expats, who are the minority, are in command.

[captjns]

I got my information first hand at the dedicated crew room at the Hyatt Regency in Inchon during my interview with KAL. Also a number of colleagues and friends from Atlas, Polar, former Tower Air, United, Jade Cargo, and Delta took positions at KAL. Also an addition to the mix to the pilot group from the west are pilots from Qantas, Ansette, and Air New Zealand. KAL is continuing to interview and hire DECs from the west via various contracting firms such as CAC, GAP, Rishworth, to name a few. As for the 737 fleet, the same applies as well. KAL is interviewing in the neighborhood of about 12 per month, again DECs for the 737 fleet. The current captains who are nationals are transitioning to the Airbus fleet with some to the 777 and 747.

True, I may have been over zealous in the statement that all captains are from the west. However it seems the trend is to fill the left seat with those who understand the meaning of CRM, which was a problem at KAL in the past, and again which seems to be rearing its ugly head once again.

[ATSAWHO]

Cracking thread.

Oppression in the workplace is insidious, all too common, and a very tough nut indeed.

Would like to add more, but do not want to risk my anonymity.


IF there are people in KAL who are fighting from within...KEEP WORKING.

Thanks for this forum.

[typhoonpilot]

jns's interview experience reminds me of a colleague who interviewed for a KAL MD-80 position back in the mid 90s. During the sim portion the Korean instructor kept tapping him on the shoulder and/or pointing with a long wooden pointer. Eventually my colleague got a little upset; turned to the instructor; and said, " if you touch me with the pointer one more time I'm going to take it away from you and shove it up your :mad:" Classic :D Needless to say he was not offered employment, nor did he want it after that episode.

Typhoonpilot

[CT7]

Go with GAP or CCL, avoid Rishworth if you can.

[llondel]

Having watched one of those "Seconds from Disaster" programmes last night, about a Korean Airlines flight into Guam, it occurred to me that as part of the dramatisation (presumed as a starting point to be based on CVR transcripts), the F/O and flight engineer were urging the captain to go around. Given the contents of this thread, and the recent one about the NZ 767 approach video, is it normal practice with Western-style CRM for a GA to be initiated if either pilot calls for it, with explanations of why (if needed) saved for when everything is back stable at altitude?

[Wizofoz]

is it normal practice with Western-style CRM for a GA to be initiated if either pilot calls for it,

Hell yes!!

The guy to my right is a highly trained individual. If he sees something that makes him deem it necessary to call a go-around, I'm out of there!!

Any progressive airline has policies that give the FO the right (indeed REQUIRES him to do so!!) to take over if the situation is life threatening.

[Zurg]

Things are a little different out East. My current Asian airline has only in the last couple of years, added to the ops manual, that FOs may call Go Around.
It still says the Captain will then decide if he wants to or not!
(And it's not KAL)

[SEAN911]

If a co-pilot truly believes a go-around is necessary, and the captain is not responding, raising the gear handle will most likely get a response. Be prepared to catch hell, maybe even get fired. I wouldn't try this on short-final. How do you know the captain is not having a stroke, seizure, etc.?
At the very least get it on the voice recorder that you were screaming "Go Around!, Go Around!"

[CT7]

Not sure about the Air NZ B777 video you are on about. I know of a B767 one into Samoa...?

[llondel]

Oops, you're right - I'd got 777 in my brain but yes, I meant the 767 into Samoa.

[Rananim]

Aviation culture in the Far East is idiosyncratic,none more so than the Korean one.The whole way they behave,feel and think is consumed by their overriding resentment of the presence of foreigners.Like Japan it is extremely xenophobic.
If you're thick-skinned and skilled in diplomacy,a good pilot might last 2-3 years there before tearing his hair out.

[3holer]

You guys are right on the dot. I just started here and after 2 months my class already lost 4 pilots. All from major airlines around the globe with more than 25 years experience and a fat logbook. The Korean check pilots just(LCPs) say that they don't know how to fly and some even doubt the pilot's background. Looks like I won't be here for long:= .

[captjns]

I had second thoughts when I interivewed back in November with KAL. I was not at all impressed with their ancient customs being brought into a modern cockpit. That's why I am staying where I am for the time being.

[jtr]

3holer, check your PM's

[CT7]

Ah, McArthur should've nuked them when he had the chance.

[j-p744]

3holer, check your PM's