Jeddah - conditions for western female contractors

[Irishwingz]

Hi All

Our company have a technical project to do in Jeddah next month. We are sending 2 staff - a female project manager and a male assistant.

I'm wondering about what conditions will be like for her both at work in the airport (one of the maintanance companies) and at the hotel.

We've never sent people there before so this may seem very ignorant but will things be difficult for her?

Will she have to dress appropriately (full veil etc) whilst on the job?
Will she be able to give instructions to local male staff?
Are the hotels just like western hotels once inside - i.e.can she use the gym, drink in the bar all that stuff with no problem?

Is it adviseable at all to send her or will it be ok.....?:confused:

Thanks a lot...

[metro301]

We've never sent people there before so this may seem very ignorant but will things be difficult for her?
Will she have to dress appropriately (full veil etc) whilst on the job?
Abaya (black robe), no veil.
Will she be able to give instructions to local male staff?
Shouldn't be a problem
Are the hotels just like western hotels once inside - i.e.can she use the gym, drink in the bar all that stuff with no problem?
Modern in side, depending on the hotel. None of the hotels have any bars, just restaurants and they don't sell alcohol. I would think the gym would not be a problem, they probably have female facilities depending on the hotel.
Is it adviseable at all to send her or will it be ok.....?:confused:
I think she will be fine, but I am a male and have only been here 11 months. Many others on this forum have a lot more time here and would be able to give more info.

[Fool 'n' Tameez]

She should be just fine. We're not all extremist lunatics.
For dress code, it's as metro mentioned. All she needs to do is wear a black silk gown on top of her normal clothes called an Abaya, and she might want to keep a headscarf handy in case she feels uncomfortable (in the less salubrious parts of town for example).
Hotels are fine too, but I recommend avoiding the Intercontinental. Because of, ahem, former misdemeanors, they are obliged to be somewhat difficult on the issue of unaccompanied women staying at the hotel. So avoid at all costs. It's not much of a hotel anyway.

[Semaphore Sam]

A few considerations:
1. You should contact a convenient hotel BEFORE SHE GOES; my wife, with children, was refused a room, because a male relative was not with her. This policy may have changed, but it's better solved before she goes.
2. She will probably be forced to use room service to eat; single women in the restaurants are frowned upon. One exception; if she stays in a hotel where there are many women, ie, flight attendants, she will blend in more. If she tries to eat in a restaurant with her male assistant, both of them could end up in jail (unless they're married, and can produce a marriage certificate). As for using the gym, running outside, sitting alone in the lobby, these are all probably closed to her. There are very few women out and about in the Kingdom...it's much better for women to walk about in a group.
3. She will need to use taxis, or have a car and driver; women cannot drive. Some women consider this an asset; for example, you can wait up to an hour in a line at a bank; women have their own separate sections of banks (usually empty), or go to the front of lines.
4. You should have advice as to where she should go, ahead of time, in case of medical emergency; the hotel staff can probably help, but it should be pre-planned.
5. In many ways, it depends on the person...some women will want to leave the first day, others can put up with most anything. Look at the candidate, and consider the above. Sam

[Irishwingz]

Hi again, really appreciate the comments

I'm glad the black robe is pretty straightforward.

I'm shocked they could both be arrested over breakfast because they are not married!!!

If someone knows of hotel(s) popular with flight crew I'd be grateful.

Cheers

[4HolerPoler]

The Hilton or the Westin. The Albilad if budget is an issue. Look no further, those are where most of the crews are.

4HP

[Semaphore Sam]

One other thing...the 'Bint Tank' at the Jeddah airport. I have a wife and 4 daughters; if they arrived when I was not there to pick them up, there was about a 45% chance they would be sent to a room to wait until a male relative showed up. Sometimes they were able to talk their way out of it, sometimes by tantrum...but sometimes not. The wait, if nobody arrived, could be for days (but usually Western women were cut some slack, although for them the wait could be many hours). A high-powered person with pull (Wasda) should be there to meet her at the airport...not outside customs, because the Bint Tank is utilized before they clear immigration...he has to be inside, pre-customs...sorry to sound so negative...it really is a friendly place, once one has his/her bearings! Cheers, Sam

[lucille]

The Hilton is the hotel of choice. Gyms, pools etc are all off limits to women at every hotel.
While the rules of being in the company of someone you are not married to are draconian, in JED they are almost never enforced. It is in reality quite a relaxed place - by the otherwise harsh standards of the Kingdom.
If you intend staying in JED for an extended period, try and get an apartment in one of the western compounds my choice would be Arabian Homes, Sierra Village phone +966 2 662 4000. They have a range of 1 & 2 bed apartments. I think they have a web site. At least there you can use the numerous pools and gyms and tennis courts. You can wear what you bloody well like and the social life is nearly "normal".
But worst of all will be the fact that you wont be allowed to drive. This has the effect of removing your independance and any spontaneity from your life.
The diving is great, the shopping aint bad and for a while it will be an interesting place to be.

[mutt]

Sam,

Jeddah has changed a lot since you left and its still changing :):) You will even hear female pilots calling SVA callsigns :):)

Irishwingz,

Check with the customer to see if they have any objections to a female consultant, if they dont, then dont worry about the rest of the stuff. We have an increasing number of female business people visiting us to sell products and advise us on the best methods of operating these products. None of these have expressed any fears about eating with colleagues or going shopping, nor have they told us of any problems.

As for immigration, there is a "business visa" entry point, she shouldnt have any problems.

Finally, tell her to bring her bikini and enjoy the beaches associated with the hotels mentioned by 4HP.

Mutt

[Fool 'n' Tameez]

If anything, women have better dining opportunities than men. Most of the best cafes and restaurants are "family only" (ie either mixed or women only parties), and they can eat together with no problems. Most malls are also "family only" BTW. Dining and shopping are the main forms of entertainment in Jeddah so make the most of them. I highly recommend going to Nakheel restaurant for a taste of Jeddah. It's an open air restaurant/cafe where you sit in traditional raised couches (Mirkaz) . You can go to eat, they have a good selection of local food (and western), or just go for shisha and coffee/tea/sahlab(if it's cold outside). Most importantly it has a very respectable clientelle. Other good places to try: For Lebanese: Byblos, Yildizlar , Trendy cafes/bistros: Vertigo, Java Lounge, Bubbles, Hijazi food: Layali al-Hijaz, Thamarat (although better for take away than eaing in) Chinese: Toki, Seafood buffet: al-Multaqa (laylati). There's also the ever popular Chillis. For shopping there's Tahlia street. There also malls mushrooming around Prince Sultan street. You can also go to the old town for the more sha3bi stuff.

There also some nice private beach resorts in Obhur and Dhahban that you can go to. Al-Bilad hotel has a beach in Obhur open to it's residents. They have a minibus which take you there and back.

Regarding gyms: Leisure centres were closed a few years ago by the beards of Qasseem, but thanks to a loophole there are some available. Gyms are allowed for "medical purposes", so hospitals turned their gyms into membership leisure centres. I've also heard some leisure centres have reopened as "clinics", where you have a "nurse" at reception "prescribe" you a course of excercise. In any case, if she's into that kind of thing I recommend she goes to a local hospital and sign up for membership. I'm sure they have short term memberships or even day passes. Back in the day, green island had a good ladies gym. I don't know what happened to it.

Mutt,

I wouldn't say things are changing for the better neccesarily. In the seventies, she wouldn't have had to wear an Abaya and hotel swimming pools were mixed!

[sirwa69]

Irishwingz

Whilst what many of the above say is true, and it is getting easier for single western women to work in Saudi, my advice would be for your company to find a male project manager. Believe me a man would have a much easier task than a woman.

In my experience (14 years in Bahrain, in and out of Saudi 3 - 4 times a week) I think your female will have many problems trying to give instruction to local males. Appart from anything else they will spend most of their time wondering how to have sex with her :mad: :mad:

If you do decide to send her make sure she has an open return ticket and that she keeps hold of her passport.

And if the lady does decide to go then she should be able to find some good western social life by going to the Hash.
http://www.gthhh.com

go to the worldwide database and search for Jeddah for the contacts.

On On

[sidman]

Is the Golf Course at Durrah Beach still doing well!! I lived there when it first opened..

[Desert Diner]

Irishwingz,

Sirwa is right,

It is unfortunate but your firm may be destined to fail by having a female project manager. Nothing sexist, just the reality out here.

If she will be dealing with Saudis, half will spend their time 'thinking' about her while the other half will simply ignore her because she is a female.

From your comments (especially "i.e.can she use the gym, drink in the bar all that stuff with no problem?") it sounds like you may not be too familiar with this part of the world. If you imagine it's all like what you see on TV about Dubai, you will be in for a shock. You may want to rethink your project execution.

As for the gym. I like to spend time in the Hiltonian Club (Hilton Gym) when I am in Jeddah (nothing much else to do when you don't live there) and I have yet to see one woman there.

[NZ X man]

The Hilton is outstanding, but the gym(s) in all the hotels cater to men, No women allowed. I temporary apartment in a compound would be a bit better, would have all western type atmosphere, co-ed gym etc. Jeddah is probably one of the more relaxed cities concerning dress code and conduct, as supposed to Riyadh, which is a bit carried away.

As far as a "woman" directing men, in Saudi this is highly unusual, and there may be a bit of a problem with direct orders as opposed to having them issued in relay from a male. No Booze, unless you are in some compounds, or embassy. Women do not drive either, so forget that.

Also she will probably need a letter stating that she is on assignment, if in travel with a male who is not here husband. Possibly!

[mutt]

So what did you decide upon? Send the female or replace her?

BTW, internet access is free in Radisson Suites. 25 Riyals per 24 hours used in Sofitel and a whopping 100 riyals per 24 hours counted in the Westin....

Mutt

[Semaphore Sam]

To all women heading to Magic Kingdom (and men): beware...the same thing below happens periodically (last was in Sharbotly Village, quite long ago.
----------------
Saudi court sentences foreigners for drinking, dancing at mixed gender party
Posted 2/4/2007 10:19 AM ET
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) — A Saudi Arabian court has convicted and sentenced 20 foreigners to receive lashes and spend several months in prison for attending a party where alcoholic drinks were served and men and women danced, a Saudi newspaper reported Sunday.
The kingdom's religious police arrested 433 foreigners, including more than 240 women, for attending the "impudent" party in Jiddah, the state-guided newspaper Okaz reported. It did not identify the foreigners, give their nationalities or say when the party took place.
Judge Saud al-Boushi sentenced the 20 to three to four month in prison and ordered them to receive an unspecified number of lashes. They have the right to appeal, the newspaper said.
The prosecutor general charged the 20 with "drinking, arranging for impudent party, mixed dancing and shooting a video for the party," Okaz said.
The newspaper said because of the large number of detainees, several judges were assigned to try them in groups. The rest of the detainees are awaiting trial.
Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islam under which it bans alcohol, meeting between unmarried men and women, women driving and people convicted of murder, drug trafficking, rape and armed robbery can be executed with a sword and in public as a deterrent.
The religious police, a force resented by many Saudis for interfering in their personal lives, enjoys wide and unchallenged powers. Its members roam public places, such as malls, markets and universities, looking for such infractions as unrelated men and women mingling in public, men skipping the five daily prayers and women with strands of hair showing from under their veil.
In May, the Interior Ministry took measures to restrict the powers of the religious police to just arresting suspects, because the police sometimes had held people incommunicado and insisted on taking part in ensuing investigations.
-------------
Just know what's there, people.

[Earl]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250324,00.html
Just put the link there for the non belivers.
Too bad saudia is a good job, the country is nice the culture is disgusting.

[Irishwingz]

We are sending her with 2 guys now, trying to them into the Hilton. Have paved the way as much as possible with the locals so she has everyones co-operation.

Thanks for the feedback, some good, some bad but we've been in more dangerous place though culturally this one could be challenging.

Cheers:ok:

[Romasik]

To complement the picture:

Over seven+ years in Jeddah my wife was told to cover her hair:= only once (which she ignored, by the way). She moves around the city on taxi and it doesn't bother her at all. She goes in and out the kingdom with her multiple exit/re-entry visa absolutely free whenever she wants and sometimes I know about it post factum. She just returned from Dubai and told me she didn't want to go live there any more:sad: (Jeddah is better, belive it or not). No one ever asked me whether I was related to a women I accompanied. I'm trying to cut on drinking as it's becoming too much for my ageing body:E .

Well, there are some negative things, most of which we never encountered, just heard of. But back home we have more of them, although of a different kind. Overall it's a rather good place to be EVEN FOR A WOMAN, contrary to some common misconceptions:ok: .

Good luck!:)

[mutt]

Went out to lunch couple of days ago... 7 guys 1 girl, so of course we sat in the family section! Visitors from Riyadh were extremely surprised to see how relaxed Jeddah actually was.
Dont worry about her, if the company knows that a female is arriving and they have no objections.... then forget the rest...
Mutt
Pleasantly refreshed rather than extremely surprised ;) I agree with Mutt - it ain't that bad. Thanks for the company - was great to back at the sea. 4HP

Hey, you didnt join my tour for "ëxtremely surprised" visitors :):)... Good to see you.

[Monkeytoo]

Irishwingz - I spent 3 years in Saudi - as a wife however and not working. Tell your lady not to worry about wearing the abya - you actually grow to like them as an item of clothing! Instead of a scarf a baseball cap was fine for covering the hair, and absolutely no need for a face veil. We liked Jeddah (when we passed through there) a lot more relaxed than Riyadh, I also travelled on my own, in and out of the country and was never shut away in a room until someone collected me. I also, on occasion, had to book into a Hotel on my own because flights didn't connect very well and never had any problems with that. One Hotel told me that they had 'women only' hours in their swimming pool and while staying in the Hotels I was free to eat in the restaurants - on my own. I didn't have any problems with any Saudi male - I got the impression they wouldn't go near us with a ten foot barge pole! I did however have a couple of problems with expat shop keepers - she needs to be wary of them. She will just need to keep her wits about her when she is out and about but the I think the most important thing is to walk tall and confidently and at least learn the Arabic for 'hello', 'thankyou' and 'good-bye' - they really like that :ok:

[mini]

Beginning to sound like an interesting place for an "alternative" long weekend...

[SNS3Guppy]

Thanks for the tour, Mutt!

[mutt]

Spent the day at the beach surrounded by lovely women in bikinis. Got to do some snorkling over the reef which was awesome.

I remembered this thread and wondered if your "female" enjoyed the visit?

Mutt