Night rating in the UK

[chester2005]

Just getting a little confused about the NQ(H)

According to Lasors (quote below) for a NQ course 10 hours instrument and 5 hours flying need to be done.

Why is it then there are some schools in the UK offering a NQ(H) course for only 5 hours instrument and 5 hours night?

Answers welcome I am a little confused.
Thanks Chester



LASORS QUOTE

"The main features of the PPL(H) Night Qualification
Course are:
• 5 hours theoretical knowledge instruction;
• 10 hours dual helicopter instrument instruction -
this is in addition to any instrument instruction
completed prior to the course. The holder of an
IR(A) is credited 5 hours of this training;
• 5 hours helicopter night training, including 3 hours
dual instruction and 5 solo night circuits. Each
circuit shall include a take-off and landing.
• The course must be completed within 6 months."

[jemax]

The ten hours on instruments is done as part of your 30 hour commercial flying course. Then you can do the 5 hours night rating before your skills test.

Happen to have done the same myself last month for CPL

of course I have just noticed you are talking about PPL, so I have no idea about the 5 or 10 hour thing, but I needed to have done 15 hours instrument before I started the course,

5 hours in PPL and 10 hours during CPL course

[Bravo73]

I haven't got a copy of LASORS in front of me but I seem to remember it as follows:

<incorrect details snipped>


Edited to add: I now have LASORS in front of me so can confirm that:

10hrs dual helicopter instrument instruction - this is in addition to any instrument instruction completed prior to the course. The holder of an IR(A) is credited 5 hours of training.


Hope this helps,

B73

[Simon853]

JAA PPLs undertake 5hrs IF as part of the course.


Which is also allowed to be simulated, and not necessarily in a helicopter simulator.

Si

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

If you want to add a night rating to your PPL(H) national or JAA you need the following;

10 hours instrument flight training, 5 hours of this can be conducted in an approved simulator.

and 5 hours night instruction, including 3 hours dual, a navigation flight and 1 hour solo including 5 solo circuits.

So its 15 hours in total.

See JAR FCL 2 or LASORS for full details.

[chester2005]

Yes TTE thank you , thats what I have read also but I was questioning the two schools I have found that offer a NQ in only 5 hours IF and 5 hours night.

Do they know something we don't?

Thanks Chester

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Chester

I would say the 2 schools in question are mistaken.

[Billywizz]

the old UK PPL(h) did not need any instrument training whereas the JAA PPL(h) requires 5hrs of Instrument appreciation maybe that is where the schools are making the difference on the time

[scooter boy]

Can anyone please clarify the LASORS ruling on this for me.

As far as I understand it this involves a minumum of 5 hrs night and 10hrs Instrument flight. The book states that an IR(A) reduces the Instrument requirement to 5 hrs. As it is not specific about whether this is a JAA/CAA/FAA IR(A) does it matter which IR(A) one has?

Thanks,
SB

[scooter boy]

Can anyone please clarify the LASORS ruling on this for me.

As far as I understand it this involves a minumum of 5 hrs night and 10hrs Instrument flight. The book states that an IR(A) reduces the Instrument requirement to 5 hrs. As it is not specific about whether this is a JAA/CAA/FAA IR(A) does it matter which IR(A) one has?

Thanks,
SB

[thecontroller]

i would imagine it is a JAA IR. unless it says an "ICAO IR"

the JAA equate FAA licences/ratings with those coupons on the back of cereal packets

[chester2005]

When i questioned the UK CAA about a similar reference made to "an IR" in LASORS i was told in no uncertain terms that if it doesn't say to the contrary, then all references are made to JAA qualifications and not ICAO.

You could check with the CAA to see if this has changed but i doubt it has.

Chester:ok:

[scooter boy]

Thanks Chester.
I will drop them a line for definitive clarification but you are probably right.
SB

[rotorboater]

Can anyone reccomend somewhere I can get a night rating in the UK.

(I know only bats & prats fly at night in a single engine but I just want to try it)

[Whirlygig]

On which type of helicopter? Also, you need to have 100 hours post-PPL before you can get the Night Qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

[helicopter-redeye]

The reply, 'somewhere dark' is not as daft as it sounds. From early April (2 months from now) you need an H24 airfield to have something open late enough to be in darkness, so get a move on.

Quite a few training fields (i.e. reasonable price) may only fly one or two nights a week at night and be licensed.

Geographically, where art thou?

(is the current/ Enstrom a clue ? ...)

h-r;)

[rotorboater]

Ideally I would like to do it in my own Enstrom but I have R22 & R44 ratings on my license. I don't mind where but would prefer midlands or North west.

There don't seem to be many airfields open at night so I don't think I can be too fussey.

[tomotomp]

try Blackpool heli centre

[206 jock]

I did mine last year in an R22/B206 at Sloanes: most of the airfield stuff was at Conington (but we also flew to Coventry once). Good guy and very 'practical' (PM me for a more precise definition!).
The biggest pain is the 10 hours of 'instrument appreciation'. At the risk of being called names, this is at least 5 hours too long and is designed I think to put people off!
I know Sywell isn't on your doorstep, but I'd recommend it if you can.

[helicopter-redeye]

For the NW, you've got Blackpool, Liverpool and maybe Harwarden as realsitic options. (Lit/ Licensed/FTO'ed). As you would not be done in one go you'd need to be able to drive home and need the flexibility about when the weather is bad as for the night flying components you need good vis.

Over this side you could fly before 8pm at Sheffield (low cost/ lit/ licensed) and probably also Doncaster although there are some restrictions at night at present due wrks, and I think Sherburn i E and Sandtoft.

If it is your machine (and it is night equipped) then you can take the instructor/ FTO of choice and the field of choice provided you have worked out the logistics of getting there and back for you both.

Choose soon. It will be too light otherwise!

[muffin]

And if you did your PPL(H) before the 5 hours instrument appreciation was part of the syllabus, then you have to do 15 hours under the hood for the night rating. I was going to do it but could not be bothered with the 15 hours IF on an R22.

[206 jock]

And if you did your PPL(H) before the 5 hours instrument appreciation was part of the syllabus, then you have to do 15 hours under the hood for the night rating. I was going to do it but could not be bothered with the 15 hours IF on an R22.

No - you need to do 10 hours of Instrument appreciation and 5 hours night flying. The 10 hours applies whether you did 5 hours as part of the PPL or not.

[nigelh]

Why do you say bats and prats ?? I know of many extremely sensible, extremely qualified pilots who have regularly flown singles at night . Why dont i line them up for you one day and you can call them all "prats" !!!
Where do you draw the line with your fear of singles ? Would you fly across to France in one ?? Cross a reservoir in one ?? Funny thing is that statistics do not back you up . Unless you are hovering all day OGE or flying all day over water then twins are identical to singles re safety.
Now i duck !!!:ok:

[Whirlygig]

bats and prats ??

I dunno; I thought that was quite an amusing expression to maybe highlight the extra hazards in flying at night?

Cheers

Whirls

[float test]

stuart Knox will do it for you at Blackpool in 22, 44 or enstrom he flies out of Blackpool, Barton and Woodford although it may have to be Blackpool or Woodford cause Barton is not licensed at night.

Pm me if you want his number

[[email protected]]

An interesting attitude to the instrument appreciation - it might save your life and is there because disorientation and inadvertant IMC are real problems at night. I guess from your post 206 that you didn't actually go IMC on your training or you might have a different view.

[206 jock]

An interesting attitude to the instrument appreciation - it might save your life and is there because disorientation and inadvertant IMC are real problems at night. I guess from your post 206 that you didn't actually go IMC on your training or you might have a different view.

So you'd really advocate a private pilot flying into IMC to see what it's really like? Personally, I beleive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing: you either learn how to fly in cloud properly or you don't do it at all. I think the '10hours' could give some pilots (at the risk of being flamed, let's say...lottery winners and football players) the idea that they've 'learned to fly in cloud'.

For the avoidance of doubt, I spent hours under foggles (learning turns on the AH, maintaining height with VSI/altimeter: and cloud breaks), but in VMC with my instructor maintaining proper lookout. And the occaisional foray into cloud. And I learned that I never want to go back there deliberately.

[helicopter-redeye]

IMHO, foggles, "welders masks" and even approved screens are significantly less disorientating (and less frightening) than the real in-cloud experience. :uhoh:

[helimutt]

Real IMC is no fun with little experience. Also, unless you are in an a/c equipped for IMC, with an IR rated pilot, then you shouldn't even go there to ''see what it's like'!
Only my opinion as doing the IR course is pretty tough but to be out there doing IR training, under the screens, when you do suddenly go IMC, things do change somewhat even though you would think they shouldn't.

The night rating is only useful if you're going to use it. If you wish to do a night flight, get a mate already current to take you up. Saves time, effort, money.

:hmm:

[scooter boy]

Just finished my heli night rating @ heliflight / Staverton.

01452-714555

The most important difference between heli night/IMC and fixed wing night/IMC is the stability of the platform.

The helicopter's versatility is based in its instability and thus cloud flying (in a non-IFR aircraft) day or night IMHO is for the suicidal only.

Happy flying

SB;)

[nigelh]

I disagree with the " a little bit of knowledge " bit re instrument flying. When we look at the stats re CFIT it makes me feel that MAYBE there should be a requirement for much more training. I have only done maybe 20 hrs of non simulated instrument flying and feel equally in no way qualified to go anywhere near it , in fact it as my greatest fear and i believe that fear is one of the reasons that i would end up a statistic if i went inadvertant imc. I am doing more instrument training NOT in order to venture there but solely to give myself the very best chance of staying cool and turning around safely. There is no reason why , other than legislation, you cannot fly imc in your single , if it is equiped, therefore no reason to panic if you do go inadvertant ....so long as you are up to speed and that means training. Dont say that everything is fine as it stands because the statistics show there are still too many pilots dying due to CFIT....just an idea .

NO i am not advocating pushing it in bad weather etc etc

[MD900 Explorer]

There are two sides to every arguement. If you take the view that if you are never taught it you won't want to try it..for those that think just because they have done instrument appreciation that they can take on an ILS with an R22 in total IMC. OR the view that the little time you take to "appreciate" the dangers of this problem, and use the instrument training to execute 180 turns and get out of "inadvertant IMC" then you have realised the problem.

It is not the training, it is the attitude of the pilot. If you have no IR then you should keep well clear of clouds, even this IMC rating in the UK is a pain, as it makes pilots think they can fly through cloud and be invinsible.

If more training was done in instilling into low time pilots that there is danger in them clouds in the form of say for example the "Robinson Safety Course" then pilots would be more aware of the dangers. Visits to the AAIB at Farnborough and the reading of accident reports should make the unwise pilot more wise to the problem. As they say; there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many old and bold pilots.

I think there should be more effort to shock pilots into reality at an early stage, so that statistics don't happen, as too many happen anyhow.

Just my two penneths worth.

MD :ooh:

[Bladecrack]

I agree with you MD900, "it's not the training, it is the attitude of the pilot". :ok:
I have read over the last few years how some senior examiners in the UK would like the 5 hrs instrument removed from the PPL course as it gives the pilot a "false sense of ability".
I know of one PPL friend who managed to go inadvertant IMC in an R22 solo, and luckily did exactly as taught to get back out, he will tell you himself, without that training he wouldn't be here today... :D
However you will always get the odd one that will risk it intentionally regardless of training, because of overconfidence and the "no one is gonna tell me I can't fly IMC " attitude, and we know what happens most of them...:uhoh:
BC.

[[email protected]]

206jock - I can't find anywhere in my post where I even hinted that a PPL should 'explore' IMC by himself. You were moaning about how much instrument appreciation you had to do and I was trying to point out that if you had done some of that in cloud with an appropriately qualified instructor, then you might understand why instrument flying skills are essential to every pilot - especially at night.

[rotorboater]

Thanks for all the replies on this, I am now not too sure if I will bother doing it as I suspect I might not use it and if you don't keep very sharp on instrument flying it might just make me over confident. I have flown into cloud once and its something I don't fancy doing again!

[verticalhold]

Recently had a 200 hr R44 pilot as a passenger on an IFR flight. B****r all viz from VToss to DH on the ILS. His words were "how the f*** did you do that? there is no way I could ever even attempt flying in that!" Before departure he had been going on about taking over if I couldn't cope, as soon as we went into cloud he had vertigo, the leans and total spatial disorientation. This guy has built up his 200 hours in a very short time and did his instrument appreciation quite recently. He had done all of it behind foggles, which as he said you can still cheat. The real thing shook him badly. He now understood why his instructor had said to him that flying into the white fluffy stuff would kill him and that the instructor would rip him limb from limb afterwards.

I'm all in favour of instrument appreciation being taught in the PPL syllabus, but make more of it. There are too many unnecessary accidents and too many broken people at the moment. I well remember my first lesson in IF on the 300. My instructor laughed his socks off when I did a full 360 turn without noticing.

[NickLappos]

This is one more example of the differences between the FAA and CAA systems. Night is an integral part of the training for a pilot, it is not model specific, and it is not separately checked.

I can add this to the list of things that are different, more expensive, and not proven to be worth the difference. That is good, because I had to finally remove the Morse Code line item, which was the previous favorite inanity!

[SASless]

This clearly points out the self fulfilling prophecy of the CAA mindset......

(I know only bats & prats fly at night in a single engine but I just want to try it)

Just as in one of those schools with the bobbing heads memorizing a certain book....completely ignoring the reality of modern life and improvement in helicopters and engines.

Is it darkness that kills or some other cause to be more concerned with such as inaverdent IMC? IIMC does not count engines but it does do a very efficient job of sorting out those that cannot fly instruments in IMC.

[MD900 Explorer]

Nick Lappos

I agree, but isnt the FAA system such that you do 5 hrs dual and then 5 hours solo at night? Sounds like a great idea. If you havn't soiled your pants before you certainly would then. Certainly would instill discipline and respect for mother nature. :oh:

I guess the CAA is just a money grabbing machine, instead of making sure that pilots get decent training without it costing their lives.

rotorboater

Don't be lured by all this scare mongering, as i said in my previous post, it is down to attitude. If you think doing the night qual will make you a better pilot, by instilling in you more skills and the right respect for mother nature, then go ahead and do it. If you think you would only abuse the Instrument appreciation and "try and see" what it is like on your own, send your licence back to the CAA and get a new hobby. This is no place for statistics. :=

If you wanna find out what it is like before you try it (Night/ inadvertent IMC) find someone like verticalhold who is both qualified and willing to show you what it is all about before you part with your hard earned coin. Then make a choice.

Eitherway Stay safe and remember, keep it in the green :uhoh:

MD :ok:

[206 jock]

Nick Lappos
I agree, but isnt the FAA system such that you do 5 hrs dual and then 5 hours solo at night? Sounds like a great idea. If you havn't soiled your pants before you certainly would then. Certainly would instill discipline and respect for mother nature. :oh:
I guess the CAA is just a money grabbing machine, instead of making sure that pilots get decent training without it costing their lives.
rotorboater
Don't be lured by all this scare mongering, as i said in my previous post, it is down to attitude. If you think doing the night qual will make you a better pilot, by instilling in you more skills and the right respect for mother nature, then go ahead and do it. If you think you would only abuse the Instrument appreciation and "try and see" what it is like on your own, send your licence back to the CAA and get a new hobby. This is no place for statistics. :=
If you wanna find out what it is like before you try it (Night/ inadvertent IMC) find someone like verticalhold who is both qualified and willing to show you what it is all about before you part with your hard earned coin. Then make a choice.
Eitherway Stay safe and remember, keep it in the green :uhoh:
MD :ok:

Good post! For goodness sake, flying at night is not the same as flying in cloud. You still rely on the good old Mk1 eyeball to navigate and see. In fact, as an old lag told me, if you can see 10 miles during the day, you can see 20 miles at night.

Personally I beleive that we should be given just enough instrument appreciation to learn that you don't fly at night when there is even a danger of running into cloud - and that 10 hours is a CAA-imposed overkill. Tell me someone: how many lives have been saved as a direct result of the introduction (about 5 years ago) of the 10 hour instrument appreciation part of the night flying syllabus?? Or imaybe it's just to make the night rating more difficult to get, hence less attractive to the ordinary PPL pilot? Maybe I'm just a sceptic.

As a rule of thumb, whatever limits I might impose myself for flying during the day....I double them for night flying and I would never, ever rely on a night flight to get me home. There be dragons!!

RB, you should do it: flying at night is a rare and interesting privilege and it definitely hones your flying skills. If people want to get high and mighty on here about it, that's their loss.

[NickLappos]

MD900,

The requirement is 3 hours of night training to have a private pilot's certificate. It is not optional, not a special rating/checkride and not model specific.
Better training, and less hassle, I think.

61.109:
2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

Of course, in a Robbie, can you get 50 miles in 3 hours?? ;-)

[rotorboater]

Can't sleep Nick 05:15 local and reading pprune!!

[NickLappos]

Early to bed and early to rise makes a man able to pprune 'fore he flys....

[scooter boy]

For info, CAA just granted my NQ :D with 5 hrs night and 5 hrs instrument as I have a fixed wing IR - it is not a JAA IR (it is an FAA one) but apparently this does not matter an IR is an IR as far as they are concerned.
They did require perusal of all logbooks and licenses (F/W and heli) but I was not made to fly the full 10 hrs under the hood -only 5!

Hooray! A triumph for common sense - Legal for next winter!!

SB;) - (still only flying at night when I need to)

[GoodGrief]

Good evening.
According to FCL1 the fixed wingers have to do 5 flight hours to get their night rating.
Is it right that us rotorheads have to do at least 10 or even 15?:ugh:
I read appendix 4 to 2.125 accordingly.

[Bravo73]

Fixed-wings are much more stable (instrument) platforms.

So, yes, it is right that there are higher training requirements for rotary.

[Twiddle]

Think an IR gets 5 hours credit?

[Helipilot1982]

Dont we need 10 hours Instrument time before the 5 hr night training!

[helimutt]

Download a copy of Lasors. It's actually free!
It tells you everything you need to know. I guess many on this forum get a bit tired of the same old questions or ones which the first 'poster' can't be bothered to look up.

Check out section E5


Requirements are pretty much below:-

'100hours as pilot of helicopters after issue of ppl.'
'60 hours as PIC'
'20hours x-c flight'
'5 hours theoretical knowledge instruction'
'10 hours dual instruction, this is in addition to any instrument flying completed before the course'
holder of an IR(A) is credited 5 hours

[GoodGrief]

@helimutt

Thanks for the polite answer but Lasors doesn't apply to me...:=

[eddietcapt]

Try VIP Helicopters Doncaster

[the beater]

On your website, you state that you are unable to take anyone over 17 stone on a flight in your R44 helicopter.
Why?
I understand that most people who weigh 17 stone would be classed as obese (unless they're very tall), but what, specifically, excludes the lardies?
I've flown people weighing over 17 stone (but not that much over:ooh:) in an R22

[misterbonkers]

seatbelts can be an issue for larger persons although i have had a passenger weighing 21stone. It depends on their build.

Also, aft cyclic can be an issue if youve got the dual controls fitted (i.e on a trial flight)

Actual weight limit for the r44 seat is 300lbs assuming youve got nothing under the seat.

[the beater]

Exactly.
Which is why I asked what precluded the lardies specifically. It may be that you aren't willing to fly them, but it doesn't mean that you can't.
It also mentions that on trial lessons you can take friends. This is contrary to advice given by the CAA.
Also stated is that they are the 'first training school to be established at Doncaster Sheffield Robin Hood Airport'.
This may be news to Alpha.
And Whirlybird.
And JG ;)

[eddietcapt]

Rotor bouter

Try Doncaster VIP Helicopters R44 £285 hr or take your Enstrom

[eddietcapt]

VIP started 2 month before any other

[Whirlygig]

Two adverts in 5 posts - not bad going eh?

Cheers

Whirls

[Up & Away]

enjoy the 'Duel' experience there, day or at night :bored:

[Helinut]

Returning to the subject of this thread........

I am in two minds about the inclusion of "instrument appreciation" in the NQ preamble. I can see both sides of the argument. On the whole though, I don't think that any amount of training is likely to matter if the pilot's attitude is wrong. Risk-takers will take risks and push on beyond the point where they are competent.

Over the years, I have done quite a bit of night flying, often in relatively poor weather. I have tried to always ensure that I avoid inadvertent IMC - in a non-IFR (non-IR) operation that is my job and what I am supposed to do. However, on one or two occasions I have gone IMC. When I have, it is COMPLETELY different to being IMC in a planned IFR flight.

One aspect that has not been mentioned is that instrument flying is such a perishable skill. I have done instrument training as an instructor some while ago and hold a currently lapsed IR(H) and IR(A). Not a great number of IF hours but someone was happy to sign me off once. However at present, the only IF I do is at 6 monthly OPC sessions, plus usually a bit of mutual every 3 months. I would absolutely NOT regard myself as currently competent to fly IF in a hele (without an autopilot/stabilisation). That being the case, I make sure that I take big steps to avoid IMC in such circumstances.

Which sort of leads me to my final point. In the training that a typical pilot goes through as part of his basic training, I do not think that enough (i.e. any) time is spent showing students the signs of impending loss of visual contact in poor weather, and what to do to avoid it. This applies day or night. I have flown with significant numbers of low-time pilots who have been unaware as they approach inadvertent cloud entry during the day, never mind at night. When/if they do go IMC, they are unprepared and scared - not a good start. Such familiarisation can be done in an aircraft, but it is also possible to do something reasonable in a sim, I suggest.

As some recently reported accidents remind us, such accidents can also happen to experienced professional IR pilots who push too hard on just one flight .........

[This is almost all UK experience]