DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 4

[postcard]

Onion quoted:-

"Heslop2006 MME catchment area is bigger than NCL so to argue that one is just silly. If it is advertised right by travel agents etc it would sell if it was at MME".

Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=245932&page=14

[CentreFix25]

The catchment discussion has been had before. MME has a bigger catchment within 2 hours drive, NCL has bigger with in 1 hours drive. I'm quoting myself here from about a year ago, 'i live with in the 2 hour catchment of MME, but would have to drive South on the A1 past NCL to get there. Unless MME has something to offer that NCL, LBA, DSA doesnt the 2 hour rule will never come into play.

[postcard]

Good point centrefix-However the time factor element is open to question-especially with the state of NE roads and ongoing congestion ? Dont forget not everyone drives to our airports.

I feel there are Five parts to the equation of a successful airport operation.

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

The first of course being the main ingredient !!

If you have all five you should/could have a successful brand?
I would imagine..obtaining point one is the most difficult?

So where, using this little list does DTV measure up to?

[mmeteesside]

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

Well for DTV....
1) Not brilliant but getting better....
2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
3) Flight Costs - roughly the same on the same routes.
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
5) Airport Terminal, well not brilliant at the moment, quick to get through on arrival, getting better though!

[SWBKCB]

2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
There may be more people within a two hour drive but most of these will be nearer to NCL, LBA or DSA than to MME so as CentreFix25 said, until MME offers something that the others don't why should they drive further to get to MME??
As for accessibilty - anywhere's get better access than LBA, but NCL's got a Metro link to the nearest major conurbation and is at the end of a dual carriageway spur from the regions (admittedly increasingly congested) road route where as MME is in the middle of nowhere (a bit harsh, I know - but it's not the easiest place to get to...)
and when are they going to sort out those roadsigns!!!:confused:

[onion]

I hope this finishes the catchment area argument once and for all

from “The future development of air transport in the UK: North of England”

Page 42, Table 2.2 ‘Population Catchment’

1 hour road catchement population

MAN 5-7 million
LPL 5-7 million
LBA 3-5 million
MME 2-3 million
NCL 2-3 million
HUY 0.6 – 1 million

2 hour road catchment population

LBA 16-18 million
MAN 15-17 million
LPL 13-15 million
HUY 10-11 million
MME 6-7 million
NCL 3-4 million


data per DLTR NAAM model.

So as we can see NCL and MME have the same population living within an hour drive, neither is credited with a bigger population. Within 2 hours drive though MME wins hands down. True there are many other factors that come into play, like what routes and frequency is on offer.
I know people say that they wont travel past NCL or LBA to get to MME if there the same flights but that is just not true. Many travel to MME from within Newcastle to get flights to Spain. I ve seen it and actually been in the terminal when people living in Newcastle have gone out to Spain. Also people do actually drive past MME to get to NCL when there are the same flights on the same day etc. This is often down to travel agents pushing NCL.

Postcard I think you should know me by now not to argue. Think I have proven it now!

[SWBKCB]

There's been a couple of references in recent posts to travel agents pushing NCL over MME (presumably this doesn't apply to those who live in Newcastle who have driven to MME to fly to Spain...), but why would they do this - laziness, lack of awareness or are they getting commercial incentives?
Oh, and do those pax on the way to NCL drive past Teesside or Durham Tees Valley?:ok:
and to prove you can do anything with numbers, shouldn't HUY be twice as big as MME...
;)

[onion]

SWBKCB going by the figures yes, HUY should be bigger than MME and NCL, but we aren't talking bout HUY here are we. I'm just backing up my point and responding to postcard who said.

"Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?"

Just trying to keep this all based on facts not fiction like some will have you believe.

[postcard]

Thanks Onion for that informative reply..now we all know the true facts-which of course was all I really wanted>
Sorry Didnt realise query was number 27 in a series of 46 arguments??

Still begs the question though why is DTV after 30+ years of trying-still light years away from being a successful regional airport?

Over to you Onion....

[SWBKCB]

Still begs the question though why is DTV after 30+ years of trying-still light years away from being a successful regional airport?

A bit harsh - suppose it depends on your criteria for success. For Peel it will be does/will it make money and for the local authorities it will be does it support the local economy (generating income through jobs and providing access for business users and tourists) and for the locals it will be can I get to where I want to go with the minimum effort and cost.
Don't know the answer to the first one but for the second two I would have thought the answer is yes but could do better.

;)

[mmeman]

Do you not think that MME has been pretty successful considering the amount of competition it faces from NCL and LBA? Everywhere you look in the area ther are adverts from Jet2 and easyjet enticing you to fly from NCL or LBA. would you call 900,000 passengers a year not successful, considering the size of the airport? Losing bmibaby was a huge blow, but do you not agree that some of the routes bmibaby operated were not the best choices, i.e Cork, Knock and Belfast. It was as if they were saying that we fly to these places from our other bases, so they must be successful from MME too, when clearly they were not going to be that successful. They were tryint to fit MME into their existing route structure, instead of finding different routes that would be successful from MME. Flyglobespan have picked up the most successful routes and added more routes to the sunshine destinations that they know are going to be successful. And if they are getting 900,000 passenegers from a 1hr drive catchment area of 2-3 million people, it is not doing too badly. Maybe we should have this debate in a years time to see how next summer goes, and the new Wizz route to Warsaw.

[DTVAirport]

The way I see it is, I agree with what mmeman said, but at the same time, I do think we should be doing better.

But at the end of the day, when the LCC boom first began, we missed the boat and as a result we're playing catch-up to NCL and LBA, and that's the point - we're not catching up, the gap between us and NCL is not closing like it should be.

Regards.

[onion]

Depends on what you class as success. MME may not be doing as well as it should be in terms of pax numbers, but there are many other criteria to include. MME has Flight Precision and FRA two very large users of the airport, ok not large aircraft but they do put money and movements through the airport. Then there is the flying schools, ok again not big business but providing a service to all those who want to become pilots. Then you have TNT ok again only a small item but MME is there European maintenance base for the 146. Then you have the Fire School providing an invaluable service again. On top of this MME is used by many airlines for training and just over the past few days Ryanair, Jet2 and Flyglobespan have all been doing circuits.
I believe that too many people put to much emphasis on pax numbers at airports. Yes more often than not it is what counts and is usually what most airports are judged on, but what is a successful airport?

[MME4eva]

To add my 10pence worth on the catchment area discussion I think as long as DTV works hard to ensure that pax from North Yorkshire up to Durham/Sunderland see MME as their local airport rather than NCL and LBA and offer them services that they want and will use (i.e. the costas bucket and spade short haul and cheap city breaks) rather than peculiar experiments (e.g. Knock) then they have done all they can given the only city in that area is Durham (relatively small) and a lot the catchment are is actually rural (a problem shared by HUY)

I think MME should see attracting Newcastle/Leeds people as a pure bonus as let's face it only cost of flights (with the locos) or availibility (with charters)will push them to use MME.

On another front can anyone enlighten me why the BRU morning flight wasn't showing on the arrivals/departures page of the airport website during the festive period?was it operational or did EZE cancel the route as they often do at this time when business pax aren't travelling as much?

[EI-BUD]

I think that the success of the few FR routes is testament that MME can attract the passengers. I blame WW for its failure at MME.

The marketing ppl at bmibaby have not put bmibaby on the map in an aggressive way. Bmibaby never led the pack and at this stage I cant see them doing it either. Dont get me wrong I know a few ppl who work for WW and its no comment on the employees , as far as I am concerned if bmibaby can make a base like MME work with a very sufficient catchment area they may as well as forget about it. WW have never been headline creating perception . eg FR announce new bases , its all growth and expansion. Bmi were always viewed as a good company , its sad that WW has not been leading the pack, a marvelous opportunity was lost they could have been up there with FR as one of the European LCC leaders. The brand is smart . pity the strategy didnt follow through.

MME has a job on its hand. They need Ryanair in there with a base , whatever it takes. reduced charges? THe volume would make the overall FR business viable. Flybe is also another good one for the smaller markets. I would love to see both these companies come in. To be fair NCL has alot of expertise in its backers CPH ? So a strong airline is need at MME.

[Wellington Bomber]

SWBKCB

Eastern have a very much reduced schedule during xmas and new year from all bases not just mme. This is I presume to be because it is classed as a business class airline and obviously over holiday periods business is all but stopped.

I am sure if you tried to get to Brussels now you would not have a problem

[carbheathot]

I don't know if any of the posters on here are accountants, or have access to the balance sheets at MME, but on the face of it things look pretty bleak this winter.Its all very well quoting catchment areas and numbers but there are other factors affecting the economic performance of the airport, ease of access being one, index of social deprivation of the population being another etc.etc.Onion makes a good point about FRA and the other bits and pieces which all contribute to the running of the place,but the current departures board tells its own story.
The important thing now is for Globespan to do the business this summer, in the eighties Yugotours did a good trade at Pula and maybe this will be a winning destination for us smoggies.
I think that Peels hyped up expansion plans won't happen until after at least one full (successful) season, but we shall have to wait and see.

[MME4eva]

Just received a very efficient e-mail from the route development department of GSM responding to a query about the above route and its continuation past 27th March.

I'm afraid it's a puzzling 'NO' from GSM on this route-they said they will be flying this in winter 07 along with other routes due to be announced in the next 2 months though:rolleyes:

I feel this is a bit of a strange one but can only presume it isn't attracting the numbers GSM deems appropriate for a summer route. As much as I love the french riviera i would have thought a TFS route in the summer would have proved more popular than a NCE from MME?

Also looking at the prices still available on the first few flights of the GRO route in Feb does not look like these planes will be full by any means:*

[onion]

Are the rumours of the Paris returning and BMI pulling CDG from LBA plus the new 145s their getting linked? Or am I being a little to hopeful?

[SWBKCB]

bmi seem to be closing their CDG base completely, so seems unlikely that they will replace one regional route with another just up the road (especialy as I would suspect LBA has more of the sort of high-yield pax that bmi are after). However, does release aircraft plus the new Embraers which have to be used for something.

[Pembo330]

According to the KLM and Skyteam schedules, the MME-AMS goes up to 4 rotations for the period April - June. Strangely, it isn't there in July and is infact only there for this 3 month period.

All now bookable on the website.

[uklad007]

i could be clutching at straws here but now BMI have released an EMB aircraft at LBA from its route to CDG is there any slim chance of them sending it to us at MME, and hopefully not just to operate to LHR. As we dont anymore have a route to CDG and Flyglobespan didnt add it to their base announcement of routes and having heard the pax loads on Baby werent too bad could this be a possible option or is the North east a bit flooded with services to CDG, especially as Jet2 are supposedly going to add capacity in BMI's absence?

(Apologies for all the abbreviations :rolleyes: )

[chrism20]

If they do I doubt it will head to CDG, i'm sure the news release I saw was that they were pulling out of CDG totally.

The ERJ has to go somewhere though, or will it just be used for the new LBA/CPH instead?

[airhumberside]

LBA-CPH is only once daily so won't use the CDG aircraft. I thinkit will replace an EDI flight which will be moved to a new EDI based aircraft

[DTVAirport]

Lot's of diversions in yesterday and probably again today and next week as well due to weather, plus, rumours that on either Sunday/Monday a special flight could be arriving at MME which will be either a Gulfstream G450, a Boeing BBJ or even a Boeing 777, so a few things to look out for in the coming days.
Regards,

[MME4eva]

Personally UKLad007 speaking as a francophile I would love to think that BD might start a regional service to CDG but I would think that this would go against the grain of the company's decision to pull out of CDG and any hope of such a based aircraft would surely be given to JER over CDG though given GSM announcing this route even this would seem slim.

My bet is that the spare EMB will be given to GLA, EDI, ABZ or MAN and taken up with increased frequencies to established routes:*

[Sweet Potatos]

Hey folks, I'm a twr/app controller, I'm thinking of applying to DTV after spotting the recent ad ... any controllers wanna pm me? Just a few Q's about DTV and Peel airports ... T's & C's etc ;)

cheers

S.P.

[Northern Hero]

The BD345 re-appears soon with an 0550 or 0600 departure ! This is only for two weeks before going back to 2145. Apparently due to the CDG slots being freed up. Come on bmi, stop mucking everyone about. :ugh:
God knows what they're going to do to the summer schedule.

I have heard the BD Reus charter is confirmed for Monday lunchtimes in the summer, in at 1310 and out at 1410.

[MME4eva]

I really do wash my hands with BD-What is their medium to long term development plan? To keep chopping and changing routes, bases, aircraft, times until some miracle happens either in the form of a takeover or financial success? It smacks to me of losing the plot with introducing this frequency for a 2 week period-I am already puzzled why they would drop all routes to CDG and this 5.50am departure from MME is equally baffling!!

Anyone know what equipment the REUS rotation will be on?

Also, is the FCA Grenoble flight a one off today?

[mmeteesside]

FCA ski flight to Grenoble went out the last 2 weeks also, so tomorrow will make it 3 departures in a row.... better than last year!

As for BD, I think that an early morning departure from here would be fairly popular, they really do need to seriously look at changing the MME times.

[DTVAirport]

With regards to bmi, they cut all CDG routes because they weren't competing well enough against the LCC's; there's no point in keeping routes that aren't making money.

But yes, they are messing us around, it's back to three times daily for the summer, and bmi seriously need to look at the times, and more importantly, invest in some serious and clever local advertising - a TV advert would be best, but I doubt that will happen right?

The events of this summer could decide the future of the LHR route - come on bmi, do something positive! I hope for all A319's for the summer, but knowing our luck, we'll probably get an Embraer again on the morning run.

Regards.

[mmeteesside]

Been some minor changes to the Flyglobespan schedule for the summer, now sees a third weekly Faro flight on a Friday afternoon.... as well as some minor time adjustments. There is still 1 flight on a Saturday afternoon (Mahon) that doesn't fit in with 2 gaps (Sat morning, Tue afternoon) so I guess that will just fall into the Sat morning gap. Therefore this would leave 1 gap on a Tuesday afternoon.....

Also looks like Pegasus won't be coming back on the Dalaman flight for First Choice/Thomas Cook as both seem to be saying it's not available.

[MME4eva]

Just seen the FCA on finals into MME so does that make it yesterday and today then? Is this a weekly route or for just two weeks like last year?


As with regards to bmi, advertising would be great as the MME LHR is a great route to have that many a regioanl airport would love but i'm afraid an advert after the Tyne Tees weather with no mention of the actual route (Just the BMI name and website!)won't help!

For the average passenger who would use BMI to LHR, just knowing whether its 3 or 4 times a day and knowing the times (i.e a morning, lunchtime and evening) is paramount and makes you more likely to book with them than this constant chopping and changing which leaves people confused and unable to make concrete plans in the future. KLM seem to do this no probs at MME with only minor tweaks to the timetable and aircraft at the usual times u'd expect i.e. going from winter to summer timetable etc!

I'm sorry if BMI can't make CDG work it's worrying as from LHR they seem to offer low fares and many a passenger would be interlining to a star alliance partner. Ok at LBA its different but i thought BD was for the business traveller given its frequency of 3x daily and the 1 x daily Jet2 was for leisure as they could never afford the regional prices!

[onion]

Was just wondering if any airlines had looked at picking these routes up out of MME, both were fairly popular. These would be ideal for an airline like Flybe, Air Southwest or Aer Arran to take on. Also is there any possibility that these could in anyway be tied into some sort of based operation for an airline with Gatwick, Paris or Belfast. Maybe something for BMI or Flybe to look at!

[SWBKCB]

Maybe something for BMI or Flybe to look at!

One of these days when I get really bored I'm going to have a look aound all the various airport threads and tot up exactly how many regional airports FlyBe is going to be the saviour of!

Methinks they've got an awful lot of work with the BA Connect deal before they go looking for trouble elsewhere...

[DTVAirport]

Was just wondering if any airlines had looked at picking these routes up out of MME, both were fairly popular. These would be ideal for an airline like Flybe, Air Southwest or Aer Arran to take on. Also is there any possibility that these could in anyway be tied into some sort of based operation for an airline with Gatwick, Paris or Belfast. Maybe something for BMI or Flybe to look at!
I can only see Aer Arann picking up Cork, but they won't because they operate the route at LBA, which they would probably see MME-ORK as competing with themselves, and it doesn't fit GSM's route-structure. The only way I can see us getting Cork is if Jet2 launch the route from LBA, muscling Aer Arann out, then they may look at us. As for Newquay, when Air Southwest decides to expand, MME-NQY possibly via BRS should be right up their street. Other than a BHD service, Flybe probably won't touch us, and we definitely won't get anymore base operations in the near future.

Regards,

[Jamesair]

Yesterday an application was published on the CAA website for a scheduled service between DTV and Jersey by Flyglobespan to operate between 30th June and 27th October 2007.

[onion]

SWBKCB I think your being a little harsh. MME doesn't need a saviour. Just looking at the routes I suggested and being sensible about who may operate them. Anyway does Flybe being the saviour of regional airports include coming into NCL with a 4 aircraft base?

[MME4eva]

I agree with a lot of opinions here with regards future routes and have said so in previous posts but will throw my ideas open again:

definately can't see a new based operation in the near future. MME must see how GSM get on first as don't want to tip the boat and have too many routes for too few pax so...

BHD-will only be on a BE BHD based aircraft or-at a push-a MME T3 Jetstream

NQY/BRS-fits WOW perfectly and would bring back BRS into the network from MME but hard to fit this into winter AND summer so maybe summer NQY and BRS and winter BRS only?

CDG/ORY-only option would be GSM expanding (u never know even if not currently served by them elsewhere just look at JER) or very tenious but cityJet or EZY from their ORY base.

ORK- could only see GSM trying this one as agree Aer Arann would be stepping on their own toes here

CIA- come on FR it was popular and if they choose the right times and don't offer it from NCL/DSA/LBA it will draw a lot in from across the catchment area

LGW-do we need it?

Apart from these routes i really don't see any more routes are needed/sustainable. All have been tried just not served by the best operator/timings/aircraft

[DTVAirport]

I would rather see a BFS service before a BHD, probably a good one for Eastern to try but the airport management would have to ask them, and they have got about five more BAe Jetstream 41s due for delivery to them in the next few days, two of which were circuit bashing at MME in the form of G-CDYH and G-MAJZ, so they could do it. NQY for summer and BRS for winter would be ideal for Air Southwest, but they don't seem to be expanding at the moment. There's no suitable operators who will look at CDG or ORY from MME, GSM could try it but don't think it's likely, as for CIA, I believe GSM already serve Rome so I'm sure they could make it work from here and we definitely don't want LGW back yet, because it would finish LHR, and I'm sure people would rather see LHR recover, I know I would.

Regards,

[mmeteesside]

BFS or BHD won't work with Eastern I don't think.....

Only routes that I could see working are:

BRS/NQY joint with Air Southwest - not sure they would take this on, with them serving LBA and MAN also, though?

Rome - as others have said, possibly one for GSM to look at, 3 or 4 times a week would suffice

Madrid - 2 or 3 times a week, possibly one for Ryanair to look at with their new Madrid base

Geneva - hopefully GSM will take this on in the winter, or maybe Chambery/Lyon/Grenoble. Also note we will have a weekly CMF with TOMfly!


And some notes on current routes....

Heathrow - we need bmi to look at the times of this, different times (early departure to LHR around 0600-0630) - although things are starting to look up for them. They could push Heathrow transfers a bit more (eg to Middle East) and maybe their new partnership (soon?) with Bmed may allow them to do this.

Amsterdam - KLM look to be doing very well indeed on this route, and as previously said they are adding a 4th daily for the first half of the summer, presumably as some sort of test.

Aberdeen - this route is going from strength to strength and is a prime candidate for upgrade to Saab 2000, or a 5th daily flight. Surely a Saturday flight could be introduced on this route.

Brussels - seems to be doing ok, but I really can't see this lasting past the end of next summer

[SWBKCB]

SWBKCB I think your being a little harsh. MME doesn't need a saviour. Just looking at the routes I suggested and being sensible about who may operate them. Anyway does Flybe being the saviour of regional airports include coming into NCL with a 4 aircraft base?

You've missed my point - just that EVERY thread seems to be looking at Flybe and they've got more than enough on their plates!

[onion]

Not going to say Flybe, but an operator with 70 seat aircraft could do Gatwick, Belfast and Paris twice a day. It is this type of operation that brings in the business pax that bring the higher yields, maybe something bmibaby lacked. On top of that they could do a summer service into Newquay say 4 a week along with a Jersey in the summer 3 a week supporting the GSM weekly service.
Then you have Rome which at its peak was seeing more pax than the LHR has seen at times recently. Its got to come back in some form but once a day wouldn't hurt.
MME4eva I do feel the Gatwick is needed as there is no link to the south coast but also it may give bmi the kick up the a**e on the LHR either that or push them off which may not be that bad if there is already a LGW

[Pembo330]

Two things:-

1) The Skyteam schedule now shows KLM reverting back to 3 times a day for the summer with 2 x F70 and 1 x F100.

2) Anybody got any definitive news on the basing of the TOM aircraft this summer? Everyone says it won't be here, but that still isn't reflected in any schedules or official announcements.

[mmeman]

Ryanair are re introducing the Wednesday Dublin flight, but it looks like just for the month of May.

I see at the moment the bmi flights to LHR are still at 3 a day and the 12.45 flight to LHR is now retimed to 11.40. Is the 4th rotation going to start again with the early morning flight to LHR?

In the latest edition of flightlines it does state that Thomson Holidays will be operating to 12 destinations, but does this mean with Thomsonfly as the airline?? I see there are adverts for Thomsonfly flights in the Darlington area, but advertising flights from Newcastle. Why not advertise their holidays from Durham Tees Valley instead! :*

[DTVAirport]

Ryanair relaunching the Wednesday Dublin flight is encouraging, even if it is just for one month. Shame about KLM Cityhopper abandoning their fourth AMS rotation for a second time, they seem keen, I think that must be more to do with aircraft availablility. Still, at least we'll be getting an F100!

It states twelve TOM routes in Flightlines? I got an e-mail from DTVA about two months prior to the release of the latest Flightlines stating that Thomsonfly would be flying to eleven destinations this summer?

Regards.

[mmeteesside]

Well it seems that the Thomsonfly aircraft base for the summer is safe (for this summer at least) and that it is just the crew base that is shutting, I think what saved our aircraft is the fact that LBA is shutting and therefore they couldn't shut 2 within close distance!

The crews will be working out of NCL instead I guess, and it is the NCL crews that will be flying the MME flights also.

[DTVAirport]

Well I suppose that's a good thing. I'd rather have the enemy flying the aircraft than the aircraft flying with the enemy.

Regards.

[mmeteesside]

Well I sorted through all of the summer schedules, and we have 115 weekly flights this summer, some of the hotspots have a number of weekly flights, such as Palma with 12.

Some of the good points:
- KLM stays 3x daily but the 1537/8 gets a F100 every day.
- bmi run 3x daily A319/A320 (1 A319 on Sat), no flights by 'regional' ERJ's.
- Holidays4U flight to DLM with OHY runs all throughout the summer.
- MYT to Ibiza, run by JKK, moves from Friday night to morning.
- Goldtrail continue to run 2 flights on a Thursday night to BJV/DLM with OHY.
- XL Airways take over Libra's Wednesday morning flight to LCA.

A few bad points:
- FCA/TCX Monday evening flight to Dalaman (op PGT) now doesn't run
- Varna is cancelled again with TOMfly

[Northern Hero]

' bmi run 3x daily A319/A320 (1 A319 on Sat), no flights by 'regional' ERJ's.'

All flights will operate with Regional ER4's this summer !
4 x daily ex Sat (Sat ops x 1)

1 x weekly REU charter on a Monday afternoon with LBA based A320.

[mmeteesside]

Not what Amadeus shows for May, it's still shows 3x daily 319/320

Scott

[uklad007]

Whats more of a concern to me is that i flew from LHR to MME this Thursday gone on the 20:05 BD340 on an A320 an there was just 48 passengers and i only paid the grand sum of £0 plus taxes (although i did check in on line to save a little bit more for them), i overheard the steward saying that they had taken just £14 - i presume this was through the onboard sales and there were just four people in departures when i got off - i presume again for the return journey. i know its been talked about till the death but they cant sustain this and need to re-examine what was once a very popular route and put it right (times etc) - yes i understand their reason for all of this is a slot protector at LHR but why kill off one of their longest serving Domestic routes for it. Also someone i know on here flew on the maiden flight from MME to Gerona last week - only 13 pax on the inbound, to be expected, but a healthy 140+ on the outbound, has the rest of the week gone/looking well and what are forward load figures if anyone knows?

[mmeteesside]

The passenger figures have been awful on the LHR route for a while now, if they had a re-think, looked at the times and maybe re-introduced business class (which they are rumoured to be doing) then it may have a future. I do think however that domestic routes as a whole do not have a very good future, especially the shorter ones such as LBA, NCL, MAN and MME as they cannot compete against the train any more. The only thing that they are useful for is connections to long haul routes.

Good to hear the Gerona got off to a good start, lets hope it keeps that way.
There was a rumour going around of Wizz looking to start Corfu and Borugas from MME but the same rumour stated that they would start next month, which doesn't fit in with Wizz's route launches which are usually about 8 months in advance! Maybe March 2008!

As for Flyglobespan this summer, well I believe there is still a single gap in the schedule on a Tuesday afternoon, highly rumoured to be a gap for the Tenerife but this has turned out to be not so. The Saturday flight to Mahon doesn't fit into the schedule as it stands at the moment, but a simple change of the times would allow it to slot in on the Saturday morning instead.
Does anyone know what the 2 aircraft types to be based are? Has been rumours of an -800 and a -600.

[skyman771]

mmeteesside -I do think however that domestic routes as a whole do not have a very good future, especially the shorter ones such as LBA, NCL, MAN and MME as they cannot compete against the train any more. The only thing that they are useful for is connections to long haul routes.
In the case of MME I have to agree. These days given LHR's current problems, no one of their own choice would elect to go anywhere via LHR. In the case of NCL those that do & significantly support the BA NCL-LHR route consist of considerable no.'s of pax connecting to onward 'one world alliance' flights at beneficial fares / flight timings. Other connecting pax with more choice would probably choose to connect via other European hubs, and more frequent timings of such flights which again make NCL that more attractive. I would suggest that it is not a case of frequency alone that affects MME - LHR loads more that it is simply not a BA operation. Historically this has always been the problem with this route dating back as far as Autair in the 60's, I don't see that the train service has any greater or lesser effect as it did back then.

[Lancelot37]

"In the case of MME I have to agree. These days given LHR's current problems, no one of their own choice would elect to go anywhere via LHR."
-----------------

That's why we make every long haul from MME via Schipol to anywhere in the world.

[SWBKCB]

I've seen this arguement about domestic flights used a number of times - but does anybody have any evidence to support it e.g what proportion of pax to LHR transit? I don't use it as much as I used to but the NCL-LHR-NCL flghts I used to go where always packed, and just from watching where the rest of the pax went when they got off and converstions in the Exec lounge (which is where BA presumbly make their money) I wouldn't have said that anything like a majority were transiting.

For me, the train is only competitive if you're going city centre to city centre (and it's easier to park at NCL than the Central station).

[uklad007]

Although i dont use LHR-MME-LHR that often, prob 4-5 times per year (sometimes more) i use it simply to visit family and friends up here. I live just outside of London and its much quicker and cheaper than the train (in terms of crossing Ldn to Kings Cross by tube and then the train to Darlington) and in terms of driving the journey is 4hrs + on a good run on a late weekday evening so for me i always choose to fly and i do the same if i go to visit friends in Leeds or Manchester - the train just doesnt match in terms of price, reliability, comfort, speed, availabilty of a seat - only minor positive point is that i can go from nearer my home to nearer my destination due to location of airports but the time saving is not too significant and the car costs just as much, is a big stressful strain doing all that driving, adds many miles to the mileage and the only plus point is i can take more luggage but for a weekend or even up to a week who needs it - except maybe at Christmas. If BMI ever axed LHR-MME i for one would be worse off on any journey i make - i reckon others would be in the same boat as me. In terms of transiting, whilst obvious plus points of a BA feeder onto the BA network BMI is part of the large star alliance network so transiting passengers have plenty of choice through LHR! plus i dont think Flybe, for example, would say the domestic market is dead in the water.

[MME4eva]

Just returned from a few days in Barcelona going out on the inaugral flight on Tues coming back today (Saturday). As UkLad007 states, the first inbound from GRO was carrying only 13 pax which i thought was actually quite good given that this route will rely massively on outbound pax. Load factors on both legs were approx 90%. In fact Tues flight had 165 pax exactly as overheard servisair check in agent discuss this with the Dublin pax service agent who said there was 84 pax on the DUB which I was pleasantly surprised by given it was a tues and outside school holidays etc.

Back to GRO I'm very confident that this will be a success even after it starts from NCL as I think FR's aggressive prices will always attract pax from the NCL area if the NCL flight is more expensive and its finally a route that offers what MME pax want...a city break popular with stag do's etc and on the door step of bucket and spade destinations like tossa del mar and estartit.

As for LHR the words flooding and market spring to mind as anyone will know that there is not the demand for the number of LHR flights currently on offer but i'm sure that Bmi can make a good go of it with a refocus on what they are offering as when i flew this route a lot in the late 90s it was always popular even after the days of diamond service passed!!

[skyman771]

On any 'point to point' route there will always be those that live or have interests near either the point of departure or the destination to lend support that in some cases domestic air travel provides advantages over the train. What I am suggesting is that given the earlier comments as to the noted low load factor on the LHR - MME then historically there has not been enough support from all sections of the community to lead to growth in this service. The issue of train availability to London is largely an irrelevance in this particular discussion as it has always been available as a viable alternative. To pick up on perhaps a more relevant angle on the point of those that use the service as a convenience due to locality, perhaps such pax. are more price sensitive and will only take up seats at the lower end of the routes fare structure.

[mmeman]

I travel once or twice a week to London for work from Darlington. Because the first flight doesn't get to London until 09.35, I am forced to use the train. I will be using the 05.50 bmi departure when it is running, but it is just for 2 weeks. I have to add I think the train is expensive, over £100 single if you wish to arrive in London before 10, and has been unreliable recently, twice having to get buses to/from Peterborough due to overhead line damage. (this may persuade some people to try the plane again?) I still think that with the right timings MME-LHR would be popular. Maybe a 4/5 times a day EMB-145 maybe the answer, I don't know.

On a positive note, I see the road signs are being changed over to say Durham Tees Valley Airport, about time too!

[onion]

The simple fact of the matter is that BMI have the timings wrong on the LHR service. The business man, like mmeman states will use the train with the current timings on the route. I know of people who have used the flight upto 3/4 times a month who now either have to rush into the center of london or have to use the train, genrally they use the train. Remember if you need to be in the center of London before 10am there is only one sure way of doing it and thats the train (ok power line failures etc aside). Not only that the minimum time door to door from where I live to the center of London is around 2hrs 50mins on the plane if you leave checking in till the last minute, run for the train from LHR to center of London etc... and 2hrs 40mins on the train including drive to station etc. Ok I'm in the position that I live to the west of both the airport and Darlington but the train does compete no matter what anyone says. The annoying facts for the LHR service are that it is capable of around 16,000-20,000 pax a month with correct pricing and correct timings with a good frequency. I'm not suggesting a low cost operation just a return to the timings of say 8 to 10 years ago without the messing around of the schedules every 6 months and say 4 return flights a day with the correct equipment (A319/320) and a return of business class as well. Its not much to ask for. The connections through LHR have also been effected by the later timings making early morning state side flights harder to connect to. It is no coincidence that the AMS has increased since the LHR timings have been played with! So the argument that the reason why the flight is suffering is because the service is not operated by BA is not accurate. Another fact maybe causing a drop in pax numbers is the fact that business today does not need to be face to face anymore but is now done electronically, either over the phone or computer so there is less need to travel. This is one argument that i'm not comfortable with but as i'm trying to be even I have decided to include it.

[skyman771]

Onion , Can't disagree with most of what you say bar one point. I do not accept that the withdrawal of business class in what remains a 'non Loco' operation has any material effect upon load factors. There are solutions to this, one of which is operated by the BA 'Y' NCL-LHR & that is to reserve the front few rows of the aircraft for VIP's, premium & frequent flyers. This solution would not appear to cause BA any further issues.

[MME4eva]

Totally agree with MMEman and Onion-I think what is at the heart of the MME-LHR problem is the following:

timings-need to a) stay consistent to help build up frequent passengers using the service as there is no doubt there IS the demand out there b) be attractive to both business and transfer pax. (shouldn't be too hard to work more closely with Star Alliance partners and maybe use pax stats to see what are the most popular transfer routes i.e VS to JFK or wherever

equipment-its been touched on but sadly are the days of a domestic non lo-co A320/b737 operation behind us? Would there be anything wrong in bmi shuffling a few embraers about so that they served the more 'light' domestic routes as has been played with from MME and LBA. Then the 48 pax that Uklad travelled with goes from a 25% load factor to near 100% and the A320s can work the more denser routes.

advertising-still pitiful really. yes the Tynes Tees ads are a plus but NO mention of the fact its the MME-LHR route theyre advertising!!

I think what the one thing that is needed here is CONSISTENCY....sadly something bmi seem incapable of across their business.

[DTVAirport]

Yes, timings are a major problem on the London Heathrow route, but the real reason the route has flopped to such extents as it has, is because of the knock-on effects of the WW pull-out. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this sooner. I knew there would be severe knock-on effects, but I didn't know it would be so bad - and so quick to happen.

Like MME4eva said, yes, the Tyne Tees adverts are a good thing, but only if they state the route being advertised. It's the same with GSM, they plastered hundreds of advertisements across hundreds of Arriva and Stagecoach buses all over the north east, but not one mentioned that the destinations being advertised are from MME. You'd think common sense would tell the advertising people to display the origin and destination airports on the actual ads?!

[mmeman]

Looks like the bmi flights to LHR remain at 4 daily for the summer, but annoyingly (for me anyway!), the 4th flight is the 21.50 departure from MME and first flight from MME is at 07.55.

[Lancelot37]

I wonder how many of the general public think that there are no flights from MME to LHR since the airline pulled out of their other routes. Several people have said to me that there are no flights to LHR now.
I've had to correct them.

[DTVAirport]

Exactly Lancelot37! I've had to correct people too, I'd go as far as to say about 90% of people assume London Heathrow went along with all the other bmibaby routes. Well annoying.

[SWBKCB]

Just playing devils advocate, but if Open Skies goes through as it is at present, do bmi want MME-LHR to be a success?

Lot easier for them to switch the slots to some lucrative trans-atlantic service if nobodies using the service or knows it's operating...

[Lancelot37]

Wasn't it bmi who insisted on the name change from Teesside International Airport to Durham Tees Valley? Where is the Valley?

Such a silly name and no-one recognises it. It's no where near Durham. Try booking a ticket from PER to Durham Tees Valley and they say that it doesn't exist. Ask for Teeside International and it comes up on their computer.

Time to change the name again as it hasn't worked.

[Yellow Sun]

Wasn't it bmi who insisted on the name change from Teesside International Airport to Durham Tees Valley?

No, it wasn't.

YS

[DTVAirport]

Apparently the thinking behind the Durham Tees Valley name was somehow connected with Durham Raleigh Airport in the US.

[mmeteesside]

Well well well, looking at the bmi schedule for the summer it shows the first flight up from LHR, and the last one back down (330/345), as an ER4, which arrives at MME at 0730, departing at 2150......are they planning some more routes from MME operated by regional? I looked at the schedule for May, 2 separate weeks and it was the same....do they know something we don't?

If they are planning some more routes, then it would need to be probably around 3 returns a day to fill one aircraft up, and in that case JER has got to be a probable one. For the other 2, well ABZ and AMS spring to mind as possibilities.

[DTVAirport]

I think that would be logical. They should go for LCC routes that GSM aren't likely to touch.

If they hadn't pulled the CDG base, that would have been a dead cert, BFS could be a good one too.

Perhaps we're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here though?

[mmeman]

I certainly do not believe the name should be changed back to Teesside, it has taken this long to change the road signs to Durham Tees Valley! The reasoning behind it, which I believe is sound reasoning, is to make it sound more attractive to increase the number of inbound passengers and I think it was coupled with tourism organisations using the term too. If you actually look around so many more companies are using the 'Tees Valley' name, and the welcome signs on the roads to Darlington say 'Gateway to the Tees Valley'. It is certainly not just the aiport using the term. And this idea that it is no where near Durham, who said Durham City? The airport is actually half in the county of Durham, so why shouldn't the airport be called Durham Tees Valley. It could be such a strong brand, with the St George Flag too. I still think the airport still needs to educate a lot of people though that the name has changed. It can be very confusing, cabin crew calling the airport Durham Teesside, pilots still call it Teesside in cabin announcements, departure bords still saying Teesside (Dublin and Gatwick were examples). Still work to do, but no way should it be changed back.

[Northern Hero]

mmeteesside
Read my post #50. All LHR services will be operated by Regional ER4's.

The 330 turns round as the 331,as do the 332/333, 338/339 and 340/345.
The same aircraft ops the 330/1/2 & 3 then another aircraft will op the 338/9/40 & 45.
The Monday afternoon REU charter will op with the LBA based A320 on a 'W' pattern I.E. LBA-REU-MME-REU-LBA.

[Lancelot37]

We'll disagree, but that's life. The name change has done nothing but cause confusion which you admit in your posting.

I'm currently in Australia for three months. I've been searching for flights and connections from MME for friends out here and the frustration is unbeleivable. At least Tesside International was known, and still is, throughout the world.

Durham Tees Valley - DTV - you're telling me!

[MME4eva]

So are we saying the A319 has been dropped on the MME-LHR service? That's a big blow if so but i suppose the airline are cutting their cloth accordingly after poor performance even if they themselves are at the root of that problem!

as for bmi regional starting other services i very much doubt this happening as:

AMS/ABZ-logical routes but already served by T3 and KL

CDG-could have been sensible but non starter as theyve pulled out...

having said that this is bmi were talking about so i'm going for SOU via CPT!!

[Flightrider]

On the current schedule, it looks as though all four LHR-MME-LHR flights can be operated on the same aircraft:

BD330 departs LHR 06:30 (arrive MME 07:30)
BD331 arrives LHR 09:15 (depart MME 07:55)
BD332 departs LHR 09:50 (arrive MME 10:55)
BD333 arrives LHR 12:40 (depart MME 11:25)
BD338 departs LHR 17:00 (arrives MME 18:05)
BD339 arrives LHR 19:45 (departs MME 18:40)
BD340 departs LHR 20:25 (arrives MME 21:25)
BD345 arrives LHR 22:55 (departs MME 21:50)

I may be missing something, but this must be operated by the same aircraft - an Embraer. It would be illogical to fly an Embraer up on the BD330, park it in MME all day and then operate back on BD345, then using an Airbus to operate the 331/332/333/338/339/340.

So yes, same as LHR-ABZ and LHR-HAJ, it looks as though the MME route will be an all-Embraer operation for this summer.

[webby1919]

An extra Thurs flight to AGP with GSM has been put on sale. They are really building on their base at MME. Wonder if they'll keep the 2 A/C there fo W07. THeir W07 schedule is due out the end of this month/beginning of next.

[mmeteesside]

I see the works on taxiways Charlie and Delta come to an end today, with attention switching to the Alpha taxiway until 28th March. Anyone know what these works are for, presumably something to do with lighting judging by the company who are involved?!

Looking at amadeus it is starting to show more ERJ's being used in the LHR schedule - and I think 4x ER4 is exactly what we need to get the route stabilised. bmi are lacking something in the 70-90 seat range that would be perfect for LHR-MME.

KLM on the other hand are keeping 3x daily (again) but upgrading the teatime 1537/1538 to a F100, staying F70 on the other 2 daily flights.

Anyone know if Eastern are planning anything on the ABZ route? Seems to be doing very well, with a number of flights completely full, such as todays 587, tomorrows 587 and 589, and Fridays 587 are all full as they are not available to book.

[DTVAirport]

The LHR switching to an all ERJ operation is just the type of medicine the route needs.

Good to hear about GSM and I look forward to seeing the winter schedules, I think we may see Prague returning, or another ski holiday equivalent such as GVA or CMF even.

[SWBKCB]

Quote from yesterdays Independent:

"BMI would be free to deploy some of its ample supplies of precious slots at Heathrow, presently used to shuttle to places like Palma and Teesside, to launch services to key US cities: New York, Washington, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles."

[DTVAirport]

Just been on a driving lesson to MSG, the signs are being changed at a pretty fast rate, I saw some that were still Teesside International just a couple of weeks ago that are now, "D'ham Tees Valley".

Regards.

[skyman771]

Where is D'ham ?;)

[DTVAirport]

It's abbreviated on some of the signs due to a lack of room.

[skyman771]

Well that just about says it all about the name change:confused:

[mmeteesside]

First Flyglobespan flight from the base departs a week today, fingers crossed everything goes well and we have a good summer this summer, what with Wizz joining in July too.

[mmeteesside]

Looking through the bmi schedule for the summer it seems they're loving destroying the LHR route. First flight out on a Monday is 1125 on the 333 down to LHR! Also latest flight back up on a Friday is the 332 arriving at 1055! No teatime arrival or late night arrival.

Big mistake by bmi if this is true.

[SWBKCB]

A ludicrous schedule - I think their attention is a few thousand miles to the West...

[SKYHOOK]

Ludicrous, yes. Accidental...no.
bmi know exactly what they are doing and trust me when I say that MME does not feature in their future plans. The route has been maintained purely as a slot protection exercise. It is not in their interests to upset thousands of loyal pax when the route finally is pulled, hence the steady erosion in timetable over the last few years.:mad:

[CentreFix25]

... and the open skies agreement of the last week is just what they've been waiting for.

[DTVAirport]

The MME route will be effected by the open skies agreement, but I cannot see it going altogether, as bmi need their regional routes to feed the future LHR-USA routes, so yes, we may loose one or two rotations a day, but I cannot see it going completely.

Also, bmi regional are a much more respected company, they have high load factors and are currently the best performing of all the bmi Group, so bare in mind that the MME-LHR route is now 100% in their hands, they have the potential to resurrect the route, whether they actually do or not is a different matter...

[skyman771]

DTCAirportAlso, bmi regional are a much more respected company..
Well lets just say that that everything is relative..........
so bare in mind that the MME-LHR route is now 100% in their hands, they have the potential to resurrect the route, whether they actually do or not is a different matter...
Then are Peel / DTV just perared to sit back & continue to be messed about? & if so how long does the current agreement last ?:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

What can Peel/DTV do about? If bmi don't operate MME-LHR, nobody else will.

[onion]

I think it would be better for all involved if bmi was to leav altogether. I say this because at the moment bmi are stopping other airlines from starting routes into London, I don't mean there is an agreement, just that at the moment they are providing enough competition to make airlines think twice about doing flights into London.
I think what would be better now for MME is for someon like Flybe, Ryanair or Globespan to do a twice daily Gatwick and for KLM to go to at least 4 daily on the AMS with F100s. This would then cater for the London area traffic as well as providing decent connections (through AMS) for onward travellers.

I think now 'open skies' has been agreed the government should step in and allocate slots into London on some sort of basis. It doesn't have to be all into LHR but as long as each regional airport outside of x miles of London has some sort of link. Just an idea though.

[skyman771]

If bmi don't operate MME-LHR, nobody else will
Do you have any grounds as a basis in making this statment ?

[DTVAirport]

I think he is meaning no-one else can operate it at the moment on account of the slot problems at LHR.

Someone, probably GSM, would almost definitely launch LGW if LHR goes down the pan.

[DTVAirport]

After months of speculation on what aircraft type Flyglobespan would send us, we finally got Boeing 737-600 G-CDKT this morning.

[mmeman]

Regarding the LHR bmi flights, from the bmi website, it apears to be operating Mon-FRi 4 times a day? Where did it say about no flights on Mon am and Fri PM? Having said that the cheapest fare you can get on some flights apart from the 330/345 is up to £190 single! So hopefully they are making lots of money!

127pax on the first flygobespan flight to Palma on Saturday. Does anyone know how many the 737-600's can take?

[EMA01]

mmeman
The B736 can carry 130 passengers pax. So it looks like FlyGlobespan have made a good start!

[DTVAirport]

It did cross my mind that the number of advanced bookings may have effected the size of aircraft they sent us, so at first I was skeptical about the B736, but if they're filling her up then it can't be bad.

[EMA01]

Yes I have noticed that as well.. It did originally say 2 B733 for Durham so maybe they have a lot of bookings already for the summer so will be moving there aircraft round at a later date!

EMA01

[DTVAirport]

I heard everything from 2 733, 1 736 and 1 738, 1 733 and 1 73G, the list of combinations is almost endless - I even fell for an April Fools joke that they were temporarily sending us a B763ER!! :O :ugh:

[EMA01]

Lol. Im sure the most average aircraft there will be a B733 though because bmibaby operated them. Atleast GSM are doing well!

EMA01

[MME4eva]

Good start by sounds of it for GSM but it just goes to show what offering popular low risk destinations results in-full planes!!Anyone fancy a return to KNOCK??!!

As for FR it looks like GRO goes from strength to strength and what do people think about them returning to a daily DUB and maybe even a CIA 3xweekly?

Back to GSM and possible future destinations I am going to be bold and say GVA will be a dead cert for the winter and one thing that has surprised me is their announcement of flying YHM from NCL originating from STN on a 757-surely wouldnt it have been better to route through MME and give her a trans atlantic as NCL already has their Toronto flights!!

[DTVAirport]

The Wednesday DUB rotation is returning, although I think it's only temporary. I would love to see it back at 1x daily. They won't touch CIA again, although I believe FCO is in GSMs route network, they could certainly make a success of it.

I assume by now the Ryanair NCL-GRO route has launched, has this had any effect on our GRO route? If not, I feel a frequency increase coming on, to 4x weekly I think.

[fl dutchman]

Dont think the start of the NCL - Gerona will affect the Durham Tees Valley flight at all. In fact I would expect it to do better than the NCL service as there is competition at NCL from Easyjet to Barcelona and I think a few other charters from NCL. There is no competition on the route at Durham.

Generally I would think all the GSM routes will do very well, again with no or little direct competition, unlike NCL where there seems to be on some routes numerous operators in direct competition causing over capacity.

[DTVAirport]

What the hell is going on today? Why have we had 13 flights cancelled on the first day of Easter weekend???

[MME4eva]

DTV please elaborate...

Which flights were cancelled? If it was just T3's to ABZ and BRU this is the norm given these are predominatly business routes and it being a public holiday-same happens at christmas.

Dropping my brother off on Thurs for the 6am AMS flight and noticed troops were congregating for a flight-anyone know what airline/equipment came in for them?


Why won't FR touch Rome (CIA) again? By all accounts the route was popular.

[DTVAirport]

Route cancelled today are:
TAY15C/16G
EZE580/581/582/585/586
EZE4461/4462/4467/4468
BMA332/333/339/340

The troops you saw on Thursday went out on XLA8806 G-BOPB Boeing 767-200ER, which arrived as XLA006P, probably from either London Gatwick or RAF Brize Norton. This aircraft also wears their new livery. It arrived at 07:07 and departed at 07:55 according to the DTVA Group. It returned today as XLA8807 at 08:58 and left again at 09:55 under the same flight number.

Yes, the CIA route was popular, but it obviously didn't work for Ryanair otherwise they wouldn't have chopped it.

[Wellington Bomber]

Has somebody mentioned already Eastern reduce all there services around bank holidays, because they are a business airline and most businesses close at Easter hence no traffic, what is the point of running empty airplanes and burning holes in the sky.

[fl dutchman]

The flights shown as cancelled were never bookable, and simply do not opperate over bank holiday periods.
It is something that happens at Durham T V airport each Christmas, Easter etc.
Cant understand why they dont just simply "not" put them on the departure/ arrival boards after all there are no PAX booked on them.

[DTVAirport]

Well in that case we've got some serious problems, because we should be easily able to fill 75% of those routes on Easter weekend.

[mmeteesside]

This happens at all airports not just MME, Eastern barely operate over Xmas, Easter etc because there is just not the passengers required. TNT don't operate on weekend so why would they operate on bank holidays ?

bmi don't surprise me running only 2 out of 4, I presume KL took at least one of theirs off too?

[DTVAirport]

You would think Brussels and London would be popular with holiday passengers looking for a weekend break?

[RE72]

FR DUB-MME

CAA stats for FEB are showing DUB-MME at just over 50% load factor, its small wonder they dropped frequency. I cant see it going back to daily ... I wonder if FR are considering dropping it completely??

[RE72]

Also, The Wednesday service is only resuming for the month of May and September

[s_insania]

DTV, you don't have a clue do you :confused: , you think just because a few flights were cancelled we have serious problems :mad: Eastern cancel flights over christmas and easter as several people have already said and as Wellington Bomber stated, what's the point in flying planes that have no pax!!
Come on, use your common sense! :ok:

[DTVAirport]

Well ok, I can understand Eastern cancelling, but all the other operators should have easily been able to sell their flights.

[MME4eva]

Thanks for the info on the troop flights DTV.

I honestly don't feel there are any issues at MME at the mo-FR's GRO route has got off to a good start, BRU seems to be ticking over and GSM have started postively and most importantly punctually!

It is a shame bmi have down sized but we have to remember KL will always offer cheaper fares and better connections and having an LHR service at all is the envy of most other similar sized regionals.

The only hope I have now following the miraculous recovery following our friends from Castle Donnington's departure is that the likes of GSM, FR and perhaps Wizz begin to build up their destinations over time.

[MME4eva]

Well if it is true we should just remember that just like a football club being bigger than any player an airport must be bigger than an airline!

MME can survive without bmi sad as it may be given the history between the two-worldwide connections will move over to KLM (who would perhaps go to a fokker 100 or 4 daily on the F70) and a london service would be offered to LGW or STN by either GSM or FR (similiar to their BLK-STN route)

If bmi are planning it I wish they'd get on with it!let's face it the future of bmi the company is in as much jeopardy!

on a more niggling note having to fly from LBA later this week to CDG on LS-any ideas when/if MME will offer this service again. What were the WW loads like?surely with disneyland paris and the attraction of paris itself this could be offered by GSM along with Rome and maybe PRG?Definately would like to see more city break destinations being offered!

[uklad007]

DTV

I think it has also been quoted though by someone else on BMI thread and in the press that the number sold isnt far off or is in fact equal to the number acquired through the BMED purchase - prehaps a little scaremongering going on working out which routes are impacted by the sell off but you never know he may have it right - although why sell at all and to your biggest competitor at an apparently knockdown price is a mystery!

Does anyone know what the incident was this morning causing disruption to flights at DTV?

[s_insania]

An unidentified bag was found apparently, the Midland 330 was held at Delta 2 for about an hour with its pax onboard, obviously it can't get up to Stands 11-15 because work is on-going on that taxiway, (there is lots of holes in it where they have been digging lol) The Midland came in about 0745 and the terminal building didn't open till about 1000 this morning, no flights had departed before then!

[Wellington Bomber]

S Insania

I think you are wrong there, Easterns Brussels and Aberdeen had already gone by then

[s_insania]

Yeh, your correct..a woopsie by me :ugh: They obviously got out before the terminal shut then nothing left lol

[SKYHOOK]

MME4eva wrote
If bmi are planning it I wish they'd get on with it!let's face it the future of bmi the company is in as much jeopardy!
Your'e not being serious there are you? (are you???:rolleyes: )

[Pembo330]

Something seemed a little strange last night @ MME. I wonder if anyone has any information.

I landed on the KL1539 at around 22.10, and parked up was the BMI RJ, presumably ready for its late Heathrow rotation. At the same time though, a BMI airbus was just taking off, though I don't know to where. Why were there 2 BMI aircraft on the ground at once? Aren't we supposed to be all ERJ operations now?

[MME4eva]

It may have been a delay on the earlier LHR rotation?I thought we were all embraers now but without being a bmi-hater you never know they might have mixed and matched it again!!

I dont think im the only one here to say bmi might not be around for much longer..if only due to a merger rather than financial ineptitude!!

[s_insania]

The evening BD338/8WT came in last night and was an Embraer! Though when it got up here it went tech! As they couldn't fix the problem in time they cancelled the flight but didn't bring up a spare or anything!
The night BD340/9WT came up and was about half an hour early, they obviously needed to bring a bigger aircraft up to put both sets of pax on, therefore they brought the Airbus A319!
The Embraer then started up at about 2230 as Midland 5TW ie the 339 obviously with no passengers on though! It taxied out to the Bravo and asked if it could do a high powered taxi down the runway so it could test out the breaks (the technical problem was with the breaks). It did this run and then taxied back down to the 23 end and took-off safely back to LHR!

[Pembo330]

Thanks for the replies...answers the questions perfectly!

[webby1919]

Flights for W07 released:

ALC - Thurs/Sun departure
ACE - Sun departure NEW ROUTE
AGP - Mon/Wed/Sat departure
PMI - Saturday departure
TFS - Tues/Fri departure - Increased Frequency from W06

At the moment, only 1 A/C utilised - more route to perhaps GVA, LPA?

[DTVAirport]

Unfortunately, judging from the dialogue used in Flyg's press release, the winter is dropping to a single-aircraft base operation.

Still a very sensible choice of routes however! :)

[gary4444]

MME-WAW starting on 20 July instead of 28 July due to early delivery of new aircraft.

[Get me some traffic]

There is a very interesting if sad article in todays "Independant" newspaper. It's the lead in the travel section.

[SWBKCB]

Link here - if he'd arrived by car he could have mentioned the road signs (last weekend still stated "Teesside airport" on the A1 and A19...)

http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article2467315.ece

[Luke0705]

GSM Maybe should have put some city routes up for winter

Charter flights start Soon :}

[skyman771]

Having read the ‘Independent’ article then it does paint a rather bleak picture on the area, whilst being fact based. It is a fine example in illustrating that that the saying ‘there is no such thing as bad publicity’ is well wide of the mark !
If it wasn’t for the likely development potential of the land at DTV possibly in some cases with projects with only tenuous links to aviation, then I wonder if Peel would still be around?:E
Although on a lesser scale the case of Sheffield springs to mind !:(

[mmeteesside]

On a brighter note, Wizz flights now start on 13th July, more than 2 weeks earlier than originally planned. They are operating a non-standard schedule in the first 2 weeks of Mon, Wed, Fri flights, before moving to the standard Mon, Wed, Sat from the original launch date (28th). I see they move back to Mon, Wed, Fri from October however.

As for FlyGlobespan, well hopefully they have started encouragingly with loads/yields. Their mix of low cost flights alongside holiday packages should do them well! The winter is shaping up to be a good one for them, more to be released yet as the schedule does not even fill up one aircraft never mind two (if they keep two over the winter).

Summer season starts properly a week today!

[MME4eva]

A good set of destinations offered again by GSM that should prove very popular with MME-ers:)

I too hope to see more city breaks offered as there is definately holes to plug in this regard e.g. CDG, PRG and maybe GVA which would be popular for skiiers too!

[mmeteesside]

After all of the good news lately with Wizz and FlyGlobespan, there had to be some bad news....

Thomsonfly look set to drop the based aircraft after this summer, next summer (2008) is showing just two flights, one to Alicante on a Tuesday operated by the Newcastle base (on a W) and also a Saturday Ibiza operated by Air Europa. Of course this could all change as there is a long way to go yet til next summer, but I wouldn't expect the based aircraft to return!

[DTVAirport]

Not worried. Rumour has it XL are ready to step in the very second TOM announce a departure. (IF they announce a departure).

[airhumberside]

Surprised TOM have cut back so much. In addition to ALC and IBZ there are two PMI flights, Thursday operated by TOM, Saturday operated by AEA

[aeulad]

With XL's pullout of HUY and their large NCL base so nearby, I would be very surprised if they opened MME.

Regards

Mike

[Pembo330]

Don't forget there were massive statements on here about TOM not being here this year which turned out not to be true.

[mmeteesside]

I think they almost pulled out this year but left it too late, however I do know there is no TOM crews based here at MME this summer, NCL will crew everything. Therefore this summer had to go ahead but then after that will not.

On the subject of XL, well if you look at the NCL base this winter they are selling only 4 destinations so far, compared to their usual 10-15 for the winter (and I think 15-20 in the summer?). This adds weight to the rumour of XL pulling out of NCL.

There also rumours of interesting destinations by FlyGlobespan next summer, not just Europe either.

If everything comes off as planned then it could well be a very interesting summer in 2008!

[DTVAirport]

I've been told XL and LS are equally unhappy at NCL, I doubt we'll get LS though!!

I think GSM could very easily operate MME-JFK 1x weekly successfully, along with a couple of other long haul destinations, I believe SFB and YHM are the rumoured ones, right mmeteesside?

[Luke0705]

They would definitely get away with the Likes of SFB and Maybe JFK?

Yes, i agree with you mmeteeside i think TOM nearly did pull out this year :sad:

[mmeman]

I know it is early and lots of things can change between now and Summer 2008, but it also appears that MyTravel have cut the Palma, Alicante and Paphos flights for 2008 too. They are not in the brochure and not available to book on the website either. Having said this there is still lots of confusion as Thomas Cook has Corfu on TOM in the 2008 brochure.

If this is all correct, I am surprised at such huge cutbacks by Thomson. We were not expecting a base but to go from the amount of flights this year to just 3 destinations next year is terrible. Do the people of the Tees Valley really only want to go to Majorca, Ibiza and Benidorm? Or I guess they are expecting us to travel to Newcastle to go anywhere else. Looks like the airport will be relying on Flyglobespan for a lot of business next year and will have a job on their hands to persuade people to book direct with flyglobespan and not go to a travel agent and be told to fly from up the road. (and believe me, I have been to 3 travel agents in Darlington today to book a holiday and they all suggest going from Newcastle as a first option)


Some good news is the Ryanair Gerona flight, 4497 pax in March which I work out to be about a 84% load factor, and even Dublin picked up to about a 64%load factor.

[DTVAirport]

The mergers of MyTravel Airways/Thomas Cook Airlines and First Choice Airways/TUI Group could effect us. The way I see it, XL is our only hope, let's hope the airport has the sense to treat them well this summer.

[mmeteesside]

The MyTravel Paphos flight would go, TOM fly it. As for the other 2, well maybe not such a strange decision, based on the fact that Thomas Cook fly them, and also the likely amount of flights by FlyGlobespan next summer to those 2 destinations.

Still a lot of twists and turns to go yet, especially when the mergers take shape at the end of the year.

[nclpilot]

No chance of XL basing an aircraft out of MME!

NCL is very profitable in the summer and the lack of winter flying ex NCL is due to a company wide cut in capacity. I believe they are concentrating on long haul in the winter as most of the other a/c go on lease to the US and Canada.

From my sources (XLA Head Office Employee), I hear XL are very happy with NCL so don't know where that runour has come from!

The MME PFO rotation is an ex-aJEt route I believe so it is not necessarily new - correct me if I am wrong?

[skyman771]

mmemanOr I guess they are expecting us to travel to Newcastle to go anywhere else.
But this is the real world! in reality the residents of Teesside are well served for local airports, the distance - access time to reach NCL for most of those living in Teesside is actually better than for many living in other parts of the country to reach an airport with that level of services. In addition those residents living to the South have other options. Given the demographics of the North East then it is well served for airports, albeit long haul requires considerable improvement. So yes unfortunately you are required to travel to access many of those routes where traffic volume does not justify duplication. Unfortunately as in any business there are always going to be winners, others need to adapt their business model accordingly to survive.

[onion]

The argument is that NCL has more than its fair share, many want to fly from MME but can't. I know it supply and demand but we have the situation of the supply is there at NCL and the those that want to get to said destination have to go from NCL, no one is listening to the demand. What we want to see is a little more redistribution of flights between NCL and MME. Of those 400,000 a month I bet a good 70,000 live closer to MME than NCL and thats a conservative estimate. Yes you have economies of scale etc... at NCL but if you redistributed 70,000 MME you would see some at MME as well.
To be a little controversial, if the, (ex) not sure if he is yet, director at NCL is found to be guilty of whatever he's done (which i've heard on the rumour mill could include back handers) will someone like the office of fair trading step in and remove flights from NCL as it could be said some of the business going NCL's way was ill gotten!!!!:E

[Ops Guy]

To be a little controversial, if the, (ex) not sure if he is yet, director at NCL is found to be guilty of whatever he's done (which i've heard on the rumour mill could include back handers) will someone like the office of fair trading step in and remove flights from NCL as it could be said some of the business going NCL's way was ill gotten!!!!:E

Thats the funniest thing I have read on prune!!! :D

[HH6702]

If you look at thomson flights for liverpool they have had a big cut also.
17 flights down to 4 i think.

they do some really big cuts and unexpected!

[mmeteesside]

Yeah they've pulled the LBA base this summer, then next summer LPL, MME and I think BRS are all to go.

[HH6702]

BRS is still showing in the summer 2008 brochure things still changing daily.

up the road at ncl it looks like seats are now being sold to First choice. times on-line are the same as Thomson even though on FCA website it states FCA as the airline. I think that both DTV and NCL will loose out when the big 4 merge.

FCA this year are buying seats from TCX. Maybe MYT pax will go on TCX next summer so NCL will loose the MYT based aircraft!:

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Huh, XL did not even complete their program last summer at HUY!!:ugh:

They rode into HUY talking big, And came out small!!:rolleyes:

XL let HUY down big time.

BYAI

[mmeman]

According to the Thomson website there are no long haul flights from Doncaster in 2008 with Thomson. With Liverpool going down to 4 destinations and Durham Tees 3, have Peel had a falling out with Thomson?

[Northern Hero]

A lot can happen between now and 2008. I'm sure nothing is set in stone yet gents, be patient ;)

[groundhand]

Oh, Onion..bless.

Many years ago there was a plan to build a direct rail link between NCL and MME.
This was so that MME could be used as a long term car park! Dear old Jimmy even had the funding in his back pocket.

Both airports are in dire need of devlopment. NCL is an embarrassment every time you have to use it. Goodness knows what vistors must think when they arrive for the first time. It is the ONLY airport I have ever travelled through that stops you leaving the arrivals hall because of useless rotating doors!
MME, well enough said!

[mmeteesside]

Does anyone know how it's doing now that the Embraer's have taken over?
Certainly looking to book seats for tomorrow's flights gives very little availability, with quite a few flights (331/339 up, 332/338 down) having only premium economy seats left. I still think A319's are too big for this route though, maybe a leased 146-200/300 would be a good step before the Embraer 190's get delivered (if indeed they are for mainline/regional).

[onion]

Been trying to book flights out of MME via LHR or AMS and have had real trouble finding flights at a reasonable price, and its been the MME sectors that have pushed the price up, and this is two weeks away. The problem with the MME-LHR is the aircraft is too small and the flight times are all wrong this is causing pax to move over to AMS and pushing up demand on that service. The A319 was the correct aircraft when the timings were better but have to agree that its a waste at the moment with the s**t timings.

[Luke0705]

Does anybody have any information about the Saturday flight to PMI with TCX?

On the Thomas cook site it dose not come up with Thomas cook But IBW?

:bored:

[GARDENER]

I expect you booked through TCX but they will be using IberWorld to fly the route on their behalf

[mmeteesside]

The flight was originally planned to be operated by Iberworld but it seems Thomas Cook Airlines are now flying it instead. This flight is shared by Thomas Cook and First Choice if I remember correctly (maybe not next year though!?).

Looking at the March passenger figures,

Aberdeen, 3124 pax, a load factor of 58.55%
Amsterdam, 10343 pax, a load factor of 69.51%
Brussels, 874 pax, a load factor of 34.25%
Dublin, 5437 pax, a load factor of 65.38%
Heathrow, 8976 pax, a load factor of 33.85%

March 2006 included Easter so some of the routes performed worse this year than last year.
Eastern's Aberdeen continues to be the shining star, this month it out-performed similar flights from LBA, HUY and NCL.
The Brussels appears to have made a strong start, and is doing pretty well.
The Heathrow did badly, and that is not surprising! Load factors and yields should be better now with the ERJ's on the route.

[Luke0705]

I suspect Aberdeen will do well because Thats where people get onto the rigs, form Aberdeen.

[mmeman]

Anyone heard anything about Cork starting again? I know someone in Cork and they have been told 3 times a week service to Durham Tees Valley is starting, but don't know which airline. Can only think it would be Aer Arran or maybe Ryanair? Must stress only a rumour.

[DTVAirport]

Can't see it being RYR, Aer Arann is a good possibility though.

[en2r]

Could be RE to replace Cork-Southampton which currently operates three times per week and which has been doing badly since FR launched Shannon-Bournemouth. I know Jet2 have been doing well recently on Cork-Newcastle, however I don't know will RE be able to rival Jet2's fares. How far is MME from Leeds Bradford? RE won't want to be stealing passengers from that service

[mmeteesside]

Well I've finally done the analysis of the April passenger numbers...

Aberdeen, 2596 pax, 52.66%
Alicante, 4738 pax, 90.08% (shared between GSM + TOM)
Amsterdam, 10711 pax, 75.22%
Brussels, 861 pax, 39.07%
Dublin, 5422 pax, 65.20%
Faro, 1659 pax, 70.90%
Gerona, 3490 pax, 76.94%
Heathrow, 6284 pax, 62.87%
Malaga, 4560 pax, 83.52%
Palma, 2680 pax, 79.29%

Aberdeen continues to do well, outperforming NCL, HUY and SOU flights, LBA was slightly higher but that is Eastern + Flybe together.
Brussels has started strongly and continues to do well, 39% this month compared to 34% in March.
Amsterdam seems to be hanging around the 75-80% every month.
Heathrow has made a recovery on the load factor % since the introduction of the ERJ's, and I would suspect yields are much better on this route too.
Dublin continues to plod along around 65%, and Gerona has done well since it started, better than DUB anyway.
The Flyglobespan flights seem to have done fairly well, all around the 80% mark which can't be bad. Could be better though, based on 130 seats on a 736 (anyone know for definite how many GSM's have?).

[Bartrams]

Its all very well discussing new routes and passenger figures but what does the future hold if the airport is unable to provide an uninterrupted ATC service?!
I notice over the last few days many short period closures due no ATC services..what will the airlines think of that??? :O

[Bartrams]

And so they continue..what is going on??
Aircraft holding both overhead and en-route at various times over last few days..what is happening to our local airport??

I feel this is a real attraction (not)to future airline operators??

[mmeteesside]

Yep shut 0700-0730 and 1830-1900 GMT today, not exactly busy times but still not good. Due to ATC staff shortages again I presume. NOTAM doesn't state this time just says ATC not available.

[DIRECTTANGODELTA]

Its only good luck that the Northern Echo/Gazette havnt got hold of this, it would put passengers off flying as they would no doubt pump up the facts

[DTVAirport]

Don't tempt fate! They could still get hold of it yet!

[Jamesair]

If an astute Journalist reads Pprune.....he will know about it now

[BeaconInbound]

The TCX flight is operating the PMI service for the first 2-3 weeks I believe using an CWL based crew.

Secondly - staff shortages. Something that has been a problem at MME for a number of years but has never previously been so bad as to force so many closures. The problem I believe is that there is still at least one controller on long term sick, and of course SCRATCOH dictates you must have at least a 30 minute break per 2 hours. Since there doesn't seem to be enough controllers to run 3 morning and 3 afternoon shifts (1 for radar, 1 for tower and 1 on a break), I have heard they are currently running 2 mornings, 2 afternoons and 1 day shift which would explain the times of the closures.

If it continues, I can see GSM in particular being rather put off and I don't see why they would want to come back next year. If only upper management at the airport had took a grip on this situation several years ago and paid the going rate for ATCOs and MME may not find themselves in this mess right now.

Rumour also has it that SRG are not happy about the current situation and are visiting management at MME in the near future.....

[Northern Hero]

It willl be another Londonderry scenario if they're not careful. :ugh:

[mmeteesside]

Nobody on radar from 2100-0445 (GMT) so 2200-0545 local time overnight tonight, shouldn't affect anyone apart from the BAC express flight, as long as the Globespan gets back on time.

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

Dont think it will, Landed 24mins late in ALC :zzz:

[Bol Zup]

The DTVA ATC staffing levels are as follows:
To cover H24, 7 days a week there are 21 ATCOs to man Tower and Radar positions (any thought of manning Rad2/Director has long gone).
Of the 21 ATCOs, two are trainees awaitng validation on Tower.
Of the 19 remaining 2 are on maternity leave.
Of the 17 remaining 2 are on sick leave at least until late June.
Of the 15 remaining 1 is part time.
Of the 14.5 remaining 3 have radar ratings but are not valid and are either receiving sporadic radar training or none at all due to having to cover Tower.
This leaves 11 Radar validated controllers.
These figures do not include anyone on leave.
Only one radar controller can be rostered for a whole 8 hour shift on some days.
Doesn't stop barbed comments like "enjoy your cup of tea" etc.

[Bartrams]

Thanks for that informative review Bol Zup...would it not help greatly if the airport closed say at 2200 and reopened for the morning flights at 0700 ish?? that would release much needed controllers for day time shifts?? A short term solution maybe..but :confused:

[mmeteesside]

Due to the Thomsonfly flights arriving back at like 0400 etc.
Though they could close on selected days where there isn't any early morning arrivals.

[DTVAirport]

Who is this 'SRG' who is rumoured to be visiting airport management?

[SWBKCB]

Extract from the CAA's website:


"The role of the CAA’s Safety Regulation Group is to develop our UK world-class aviation safety environment, in partnership with industry, by driving continuous improvements in aviation safety in the UK and...

The Specialist Teams

To monitor the activities of UK’s complex and diverse industry, SRG employs a team of specialists. They have an exceptionally wide range of skills, including ... aerodrome operations and air traffic control specialists..."

[Chilli Monster]

Bol Zup

Out of that number - how many are retiring in the next 2-3 years? It sounds like your management's walking into a trap that many airfields are now discovering. You have to train people up (and obviously spend the money) before they're required - not when they are.

[BeaconInbound]

I believe that is what the airport is currently doing - last night seems to be a one off, having just one (I presume tower only due to the NOTAM), controller on shift. There was a further Notam sent extending the radar hours until 2245z, probably due to the late running Globespan and a couple of FRA Falcons I heard going out about 2100z.

Thanks Bol Zup, for the information regarding current staffing levels.

[Bol Zup]

Chilli Monster
Management's strategic planning with regard to ATC staffing seems to be a combination of head-in-sand and fingers crossed.
Fortunately the majority of ATCOs are in the 35-50 age bracket, the nearest retirement is 3 years away.
Of more pressing concern is the prevention of staff leaving. One would think, given the present situation, management would be moving hell and high water to keep the existing staff sweet. Not a bit of it.

At present the unit does not have an Air Traffic Service Manager. The previous two incumbents having resigned due to the pressure of trying to squeeze a quart out of a pint pot.

The Unit Training Officer has resigned and that post remains vacant.

The unit remains just about the lowest paid in the country.

The latest recruit was offered a contract with 4 days less leave than the previous new start, 9 less than the old hands. When this was queried he was told that the contract was correct and it was management's intention to "harmonise" the other staff's leave to this, raising many an eyebrow.

Rumours abound that, come October, staff in the existing local government pension will be removed from the scheme.
Conspiracy theorists espouse the belief that the present situation is being deliberately engineered by Peel as a pre-cursor to closing the airfield permanently, with a view to turning the place into an housing development.
Whilst of course these rumours and theories could be easily quashed, management remain steadfastly silent on the subject. Direct communication between management and ATC within recent times has been a big fat zero.

[onthephone]

Hey Bolz you certainly seem to have a lot of insider info, sounds like things at mme will get worse before they get better! Perhaps srg can get the place sorted out. The local press had a bit in today about closures, only a matter of time before the punters revolt. I'm cringing at what the airlines must think of the (mickey mouse) place.

[Delta 8]

May aswell cut to the chase and close DTV, and send everything up the road:D:D:D:D .

[carbheathot]

Conspiracy theorists espouse the belief that the present situation is being deliberately engineered by Peel as a pre-cursor to closing the airfield permanently, with a view to turning the place into an housing development.
:suspect:
At the moment there is a plan to construct up to 3million square feet of factory warehouse units on the land at the South of the runway. Once the services are in for that little lot it wouldnt be a quantum leap to put in a housing estate. Ingleby Barwick is about full and there will be a need for an large housing estate south west of stockton in the next 25 years.Pell are lots of things but they ain't daft!
Anyway what's with these globespan e-mails changing the times of pre booked flights?

[BeaconInbound]

Onthephone - which paper carried the story? Can't find anything on the Northern Echo or Evening Gazette's websites??

Delta 8 - stirring things possibly? I'm guessing you are an employee of NCL otherwise you wouldn't be making such a stupid comment.

[mattfalcus]

Why put in for all that development of the airport facilities, terminal, hotel complex etc, and go through all the planning applications, if they want to shut the site down?

The Longnewton road interchange is now well underway. Seems unlikely they'd push for that to start (so that they could develop the terminal) if they have no intentions of keeping MME open as an airport.

[mccdatabase]

Probably just wishful thinking from the esteemed "neighbours" up the road,

[Luke0705]

mattfalcus - You hit The nail on the head their !

[skyman771]

Why put in for all that development of the airport facilities, terminal, hotel complex etc, and go through all the planning applications, if they want to shut the site down?.........If this were the only sound grounds one could put forward for the retention of DTV then you would indeed be treading on thin ground !:suspect: Firstly any development commercial or residential would be enhanced by an improved transport infra structure. Secondly regarding the site itself, the more planning that is approved on the site, the better, as once granted, would be difficult to revoke and quite possibly able to be substituted for other use,albeit possibly not from commercial to residential use. Such moves may only strive to increase the value of the site. Possibly what you should ask is actually how much has Peel invested of their own money on such projects that is in the greater scheme of things irrecoverable ? I believe they came out very well indeed with Sheffield and even what could potentially have been deemmed as expenditure written off on the construction of a terminal was to an extent recovered by it's conversion into office space:uhoh: What you need to consider that DTV in private ownership is a business the same as any other, and if there is no return on the capital invested then it becomes under increased scrutiny as to how to deal with this. There are of course many options, but if revenue can not be generted from pax, then other avenues need to be considered.:E

[carbheathot]

The Long newton interchange is not being constructed to serve the Airport as such.It is there to facilitate the development of "the site" which includes the North Side Business Park.It is very debatable how much of their own money the airport owners are putting into the proposed developments.
The South side proposals may or may not materialise.The fact is that once the public bodies have put in all their preparatory infrastructure what is left becomes a very desirable ,and highly valued, site.I suggest a quick google of Peel Holdings and a trawl through the web sites will paint you a clearer picture of what this company is about.They are, after all Manchester based, and I suspect have few allegiances to Teesside.
And I would still love to know why the changes to Globespans flight schedules.Lack of ATC perhaps? Does anyone know?

[DTVAirport]

I have been very reliably informed that Peel have spent absolute zero on MME. The new access road was funded by One North East, and the new terminal front was funded by the airport itself. Whether Peel funds the new terminal, cargo village, hotels and business centre etc which have just been approved, remains to be seen, I doubt the airport itself has the finances to fund it.

[mattfalcus]

I think there's some confusion there. Peel own 75% of the airport, therefore the majority of the airport. So saying the 'airport' paid for things as if it's some separate entity is probably not correct.

True, it may have paid from the funds which the airport as a business had accumulated. But Peel still have 75% responsibility of that business.


Going back to earlier responses - based on all this, are we just agreeing then that MME is going to shut and Peel have no interest in it being an airport? All this based on hearsay and the fact that there are ATC shortages.

[ncleflights]

MME is, as a few folks have already pointed out is a business, and its a business thats becomming increasingly unviable.

The folks at MME need to realise that it can't exist on its current level of business. Its inevitable that it will loose its link to London in the future as BMI is only keeping the link going as a means to safeguarding slots. Flyglobespan have reduced based aircraft to one from winter 07/08 and the smart money is that any expansion from them in Summer 08 will be at NCL with flights across the atlantic. Thomsonfly are pulling out at the end of this Summer.

The facts whether MME folks like it or not is that two more successful airports ie NCL and LBA are too close for comfort and expanding the range of destinations at a rate MME can't match.

Even travel agents in Teeside recommend holidays from NCL.

So yes its a business but the land alone must be worth more to Peel than they can ever hope to make from the place as an airport.

[DTVAirport]

This is making very depressing reading, Flyglobespan could still announce routes for a second aircraft; they didn't announce the original base operation all at once, and they don't announce routes from other base operations all at once.

If Peel are only interested in MME for the land it's on, which we're still no further forward to establishing, then we need new owners; and when I say new owners, I mean a single party who owns all 100%, not a consortium of local authorities or a company that only owns so much.

[mmeman]

Now I thought long and hard before taking the bait and posting, but what the hell.

ncleflights- What evidence do you have that the airport business is becoming unviable? Why can't it exist on the current level of business? What evidence do you have that bmi are only keeping the route going for slots? Re Flyglobespan- There is still time before winter 2007 and things might change, and don't other operators at Newcastle reduce their operations during winter periods? What evidence do you have that they are going to do transatlantic flights from Newcastle? If IT operators are reducing their business for next year, more business from MME for flyglobespan. Can you provide the figures that you base your last quote on please?

In fact isn't the airport just about to have its most successful Summer yet? 2 based flyglobespan aircraft, new route to Warsaw with Wizz, Gerona doing well with Ryanair, all the advertised IT flights running.

People seem to have also forgot FRA, Flight Precision, 2 successful flying clubs, TNT freight flights and maintenance base, MOD trooping flights. For a small airport (people seem to forget that too, it is a small airport) with huge competition from 2 larger airports near by it is not doing too badly is it really? Peel were not silly they knew what they were getting into.

Now the ATC situation is not good, and the worrying thing is that management do not seem to be doing anything about it, but when the maternity leavers go back and the sick leavers return it would help. I am not saying it solves the problem but it would help.

The other matter is of course the local politicians, do you really think they would let it close down? I am sure the airlines wouldn't want it close either? I wonder how many have got good deals at Newcastle by threatening to fly from MME instead? Ryanair have played the 2 against each other as evidenced by the Gerona flights being split.

The management need to sort the ATC situation out quickly, but I am sorry Newcastle fans it aint going to close.

[mmeteesside]

Yes the ATC situation needs sorting out quickly, but no more closures have happened over the last two days as far as I'm aware so thats a step forward at least.

As for Flyglobespan, well who knows what they have planned for the winter, not all of their program has been released yet, hopefully they have something else left for us, there are still gaps in the single aircraft schedule. I would have thought a Geneva or Chambery would be a definite, even if its only once a week.

As for Peel well they've got all the plans passed and now I'm just waiting for them to start the building works, possibly towards the end of the summer once everything starts calming down for the winter. The south side has been started by knocking down all of the old buildings so it's a start!

Once the terminal, apron, taxiways and the maintenance base etc has been finished DTVA will be in a much better position in terms of business.

[SWBKCB]

As always the truth is somewhere in the middle - Peel probably don't see aviation as the main money spinner at MME, but it is useful in getting development funding (airports are sexy) and attracts a certain type of business, giving the business park a unique selling point over yer average industrial development, so if they can keep the airport open without spending too much they probably will (and imagine the grief they'll get if they do decide to close). However, if they are losing money heavily on the aviation side and have to close they still get some nice property with infrastructure on the cheap.

The problem is in attracting new customers/operators - while GSM are to be welcomed they have only really replaced baby, bmi have quite clearly been holding on to LHR for the slots (evidence - the downsizing from Airbus to Embraer, lack of advertising, messing about with timings, everything I've ever read on 'OpenSkies'...), Wizz and Ryanair screwing the best deal out of NCL,LBA,DSA,MME. All other operators just bobbing along with no significant development.

What we don't know and probably never will is how hard Peel have gone out to attract new business - have they really tried and got no where or are they just happy to keep things ticking over and use the lack of new customers as a lever to get new planning permission and other infrastructure development out of the local authorities (who will be desperate to keep the airport open)?

To me there is one little pointer as to how serious they really are - the road signs. How long is it now?

[DTVAirport]

You read one post and think, oh no - the airport is going to close, then you read another and think, oh yea - that's true, we're safe. The confusing bit about all of that is whether you read a bad post or a good post, both are true, and now, I don't know what to believe.

It would seem however that BD are just using the MME-LHR route as slot protection, you'd think they would knock one or two rotations off several domestic routes to make room for LHR-USA flights, rather than cull entire routes, that way, you still keep the domestic flights to feed the transatlantic ones.

[ncleflights]

mmeman

To the same degree what proof do you have to back up your wild allegations - NONE, mainly becuase their aint any.

First its probably the worst kept secret in the industry that BMI are slot protrecting by keeping the MME routes going, you appear to be the only one that thinks this is not the case.

Flyglobespan management have been at NCL a lot lately why? in fact when was the last time they were at MME.

Finally how is this the most successful summer yet? Flyglobespan have simply replaced BMI BABY, the LHR routes have had capacity slashed this year, Ryanair Girona is simply replacing the ill fated Rome flights, Bristol came and went and if the evidence with Wizz is anything to go by bookings arn't going to well so they will not hang around for too long. Don;t forget the Thonmsonfly pull out at the end of this year.

Do you seriously expect folks to believe this is the way an airports becomes successful and develops.

So mmeman get you head out of the clouds, well their is plenty of room above MME I suppose for you to go, and face reality

[skyman771]

mmeman Having read your post you certainly must have thought long & hard just to raise the points raised, but really on consideration they appear less valid the more they are read. Loco operations put pressure on any airports profitablity, the trade off is to offset as much off the pax revenue off by using the increased pax volume or 'foot fall' to their advantage in airport concessions, be it food or retail. This is much harder to address at DTV as the volumes are insufficient & the concessions limited & I can't see much evidence that RYR or GSM are prepared to add much. On the other side the airports fixed costs, ATC,Fire, Security etc.will be considerable. It is all a vicious circle particularly in an uncertain environment. So what is Peel to do ? there are clearly several options, a) plod on & hope that slowly over a number of years that things will improve with the addition of limited investment?,b) Take a more risky strategy & raise large amounts of funding & hope that the 'virtuous circle' can be broken to the extent that the increased revenue obtained more than covers the cost of the additional funding c) do very little, making as little investment as possible without compromising current service levels, keeping their options open d) Adopt a strategy consistent with the ultimate disposal of their investment in DTV. My money is on either a) or c) but clearly both options give Peel more freedom to change their strategy.:sad:

[10 DME ARC]

When is the 05 ILS glidepath going to be re-instated?? Been a long time now... :eek:

[DTVAirport]

What is wrong with the 05 ILS glidepath?

The new Wizz Air route to Warsaw is actually selling well, why else would they bring the start date forward from the 28th July to the 13th? Besides, even if it was selling badly, a lot of routes need time to settle in, just take a look at BRU, when it started, there was just 3-4 pax on each flight, now it's only 14% behind the ABZ which is our best performing route!

[HeathrowDictator]

We are apparently waiting for a part from NATS which should fix it....not sure how much longer it will be, but we have been told that it is off "Until Further Notice". Hopefully it will be sorted by the end of the Summer, though when is anybody's guess?!

-HD-

[BeaconInbound]

NOTAMs suggest it's been off for at least a month and a half, possibly longer I think due to a spare part waiting to be paid for. I've heard that management even asked the engineers how much extra work it would create for ATC if the glidepath was removed altogether...if this is true, it's typical of the mentality of upper management - cost over safety???

*Edit - HD just beat me to the explanation :D

[carbheathot]

DTV :I have been very reliably informed that Peel have spent absolute zero on MME. The new access road was funded by One North East, and the new terminal front was funded by the airport itself. Whether Peel funds the new terminal, cargo village, hotels and business centre etc which have just been approved, remains to be seen, I doubt the airport itself has the finances to fund it.

Peel Airport division paid for the new terminal front and the car park, the rest is as you correctly say One North East.The Highways Agency will fund the Long Newton Interchange. Given the size of Peel Holdings and their portfolio,what has been committed to Teesside is loose change.Those are facts and are in the public domain. It is a fact also that Stocktons housing needs will increase dramatically in the next 20 years and a new site is needed.

Peel is a property development company (Trafford Park) first and foremost, Airports are just a "hobby".Any big investment by this company will be in the property development market and not in aviation.Thats why the current South side proposal is for 3M sq.Ft of unspecified industrial floorspace and is not necessarily aviation related.
I have been a big supporter of Teesside since the the cold war days of the Lightning squadrons I also learned to fly there, but I'm afraid the day that Peel took an interest the writing was all over the side of Hanger 3 in 10ft high flourescent letters!!!!!
And the pax stats of course are not helping....nor is Globespans pratting around with its timetables

[DTVAirport]

What have GSM been doing with the timetables exactly?

[carbheathot]

Malaga flight which is shifted back by an hour and ten, seems odd as the aircraft is based at TD and it is the first flight of the day.Apparently there are to be some more, Sundays' Alicante departure I'm told is another and the Friday Ibiza.

[skyman771]

DTV - More food for thought Having digested all the 'opinion' expressed on the future of DTV, I have just perused Peel Holdings corporate brochure which is available as a download as a 20 page document from their internet site. The brochure is comprehendsive & as expected deals with their achievements, acquisitions & corporate strategy. Whilst there is considerable hype about their allegience to the North West, and their achievements at LPL & Doncaster, there appears to be absolutely no reference to DTV.... More amunition for the conspiracy theorists..:E

[Luke0705]

Thomsonfly Might be dropping out At the End of the Summer season - But whats to say Another Charter Airline might Step In? And Just this year TCX did the first Phew flights to Palma , XL Are doing a Larnaca Flight, And BD have Done a Reus So they may see the TOM Dropout as a chance for them to step in.

GSM Winter - They haven't Released all their Winter timetable yet.

Why would Peel pay for the New frontage and car park Get plans Like AIRPORT Hotel If their is'nt Going to be an Airport??

:ugh:

[Bartrams]

Hi
Out taking photos today and noticed a farmer sweeping to the west of the threshold..hopefully it was the glide slope and will be back in service soon???

[mmeteesside]

It's not just the glideslope out of action (latest estimate 1st July) but now also the primary radar (off til 9th June).

Also tonight saw another nasty accident at the Longnewton turnoff on the A66, which saw the road closed by police for a few hours (at least). Good job this blackspot is on the way to being sorted!

[mmeteesside]

More overnight closures coming up....
NOTAM's are showing closures for

2200-0540 4th, 6th
2200-0545 11th, 12th, 13th, 17th, 18th, 20th, 24th, 25th
(all in June)

I assume these are GMT times (therefore 2300-0645 local time) ??

[mmeman]

ncleflights :}:} Wild allegations? what wild allegations did I make, I thought I was only asking for the evidence to back up what you had said? I am not saying you are wrong just would like to know what you have to back it all up?

skyman 771, - of course the document you refer to is entitled ' at the heart of the North West' and actually only mentions Doncaster airport in 3 sentences, which you would think that would be highlighted more as they have achieved much greater things there than at MME so I don't think we can read too much into that document.

Anyway flyglobespan don't think that the airport is closing anytime soon,as they have put Pula on their website for 2008, starting in April running through to October,so more flights there than this year.

[DTVAirport]

There is no real purpose to this, but I thought it might make the discussion easier, rather than having to look back through the thread. Basically, I've listed below all of MME's problems, beginning with the worst:

1) Management
2) Peel; little or no money spent. as well as an apparent lack of interest
3) Possible termination of the LHR route
4) ATC closures
5) 05 glideslope
6) Imminent TOM pull-out
7) Lack of winter routes from GSM
8) Road Signs

Feel free to add anymore to the above. I've colour coded them, with red being the most serious and yellow the least, below are explanations, from my personal point of view, of the above problems.

1) Don't seem to know what they're doing, in fact, Del Boy could do a better job.
2) Not even God knows what there long term plans for MME are.
3) Not many airports our size can boast an LHR route, if bmi used some common sense, it could once more be a real jem for us.
4) Could easily be sorted, if management was willing to bring the pay inline with other airports, problem here is, it might take a strike and action from SRG first.
5) Sounds like this problem is in the process of being sorted, but it's appauling that management enquired about removing it completely.
6) This seems bound to happen, but I think we could easily replace them, XL are rumoured to be one step short of unhappy at NCL, and who knows what the two big mergers might bring.
7) Again, this one isn't too much of a problem, they seem to release their routes for all their base operations in two parts, we could still get a second aircraft.
8) Road signs have started to be changed, the main problem here is Network Rail and putting the old name on the new signs on the airport station :mad:

On a separate, and much happier note, Eastern have signed an agreement with Bombardier for the purchase of an undisclosed number of Dash 8-Q300s, rumoured to be coming from Flybe; rumour is our ABZ route will be one of the first to be upgraded.

Regards.

[Jamesair]

Unfortunately I can't read the "yellow points" the highlighting seems to have blanked them out. Would you mind printing them without the highlight.

[DTVAirport]

Yea sorry about that:

7) Lack of winter routes from GSM
8) Road Signs

[Jamesair]

Thanks...now it all makes sense

[Chilli Monster]

4) Could easily be sorted, if management was willing to bring the pay inline with other airports, problem here is, it might take a strike and action from SRG first.
Umm, nice theory, shame it won't work in practice. Bringing the pay inline isn't the answer.

1) You'll have to make it higher to get people to relocate.

2) Last time I looked fully qualified ATCO's were not exactly pouring out of the woodwork. There is a shortage, you're going to have to compete with everyone else for the workforce that's available.

With the lead time in recruiting and training, judging by the staffing levels DTV has at the moment, I'd say you're looking at 18 months IF you could get the people in and trained, before being able to operate an uninterrupted, H24 service. You need a minimum of 15 fully rated and 5 tower only just to provide that. That still gives no flex for sickness, or in house training, or for sending the tower onlys on radar courses (which you will need to do eventually).

I've been there with a previous employer - it's a long haul, it's tiring, and if you don't reward the staff accordingly while they're carrying the place then they up and leave - increasing, not decreasing, the problem.

[buzzerfish]

if you don't reward the staff accordingly while they're carrying the place then they up and leave - increasing, not decreasing, the problem........watch this space.:suspect:

[HeathrowDictator]

Do you know something I don't buzzerfish???

-HD-

[SWBKCB]

Extract from the airport website:
"Hugh Lang, Managing Director of Durham Tees Valley Airport, will lead the Board of Tees Valley Unlimited (TVU)—the new organisation which aims to build on the area’s pioneering work over the last decade in developing partnerships across all sectors of the community.
Today he described his new role as “A great opportunity to play a part in ensuring that a united Tees Valley City Region punches above its weight and that we really can deliver on our ambitions to make the area a Twenty First Century success story.”

My initial thoughts were (in no particular order!):

1. hasn't he got enough to do in his day job?;
2. securing an escape route in case things go pear-shaped;
3. gets the airport a nice 'in' to any new developments in the region and ensures its place at the centre of things.

Any other views??

[skyman771]

swbkcb :Any other views??Factors may have been against him, but 6 years into the job & DTV has hardly moved forward against it's competitors & growth prospects look weak. Peel has come on board during time of his appointment, so not an 'in house' sponsored appointment. Perhaps Peel are considering their options :E

[johnnychips]

Why does the station only seem to have two trains a week, when it seems from Google Earth to be only 3/4 mile from the terminal? :confused:

[horsebox]

Jchips,

Have a read of this: (http://classified.independent.co.uk/travel/article2475415.ece)

[johnnychips]

Bizarre! :uhoh:

[skyman771]

UK Airport Stats -
I was reviewing the latest 'Year on Year' stats that I could find on the CAA web site 2007-3 published 25 May 07 & as regards DTV taken on their own they make horrific reading for DTV. Worst peformance of the top 25 UK airports with fall in pax no.'s of 5.56% to 842,246. 'Neighbours' NCL +4.73%, LBA +8%, 'Finningly:E' +21%. Peels other interest LPL +9.84%.
Yeh! Yeh! it's all BMI Baby's fault, b:mad:cks !!! It's down to bad management, & 'Hughie' needs to pull his finger out or he'll be going the same way as his neighbour up the road. How much more time are Peel going to give him, or is it a high priority for them;).

[onion]

Skyman just out of interest who do you work for, and what is your problem with MME? Ok it is not performing particularly well at the moment, but all you seem to do is belittle the place. You have on several occasions stepped across the line (in my opinion). You forget that your negative comments are about people's jobs. Yes we all have banter with people from other airports but you just seem to cross that line more than most.

[carbheathot]

I don't think we should be too hard on Skyman, he may or may not be a "barcode" but he speaks the truth about the stats. I've been to the airport twice this weekend, once coming in on the ryanair from Girona(a few empty seats but nothing to worry about) and once to collect my daughter and partner on the Heathrow (LOTS of empty seats)
The first impression is one of scruffy (lack of maintenance to landscaping on the expensive new entrance road) Chaos (taxi drop off in the car park)
The new appointment of the Managing director as non executive chair of Tees Valley Unlimited seems to me to be a bit of a strange move, given his overiding committments should be first, second, and third to the Airport.
He may well be looking to improve his CV in anticipation of a move.

[DB5]

As Onion points out, criticism of our local airport is sometimes hard to swallow, sometimes unjustified, and sometimes made by people from ‘up the road’ and elsewhere with an axe to grind for no good reason. However, like Carbheathot, I also believe Skyman makes a valid point in his post, whatever the reasons.
I work in a large office in Darlington with colleagues across all age groups, living in a wide cross section of locations throughout the north east, yet the total lack of knowledge as to where they think they can, or can’t, fly to from MME is staggering. They can quote me train times and destinations, bus routes and times, which road to take to get me to wherever. Any mention of flight destinations, holidays, etc. however and it’s always Newcastle virtually every time, never MME. You have to seriously ask why this continues to happen, when there’s an airport on their doorstep.
I’ve lived in this area all my life, and despite wanting MME to be a successful airport, I’ve seen nothing positive to show that management, either past or present, has the necessary drive, vision or the marketing strategy to take it beyond being anything other than a small local airport. I appreciate that major developments such as those proposed don’t happen overnight, but I’m also old enough to remember MME opening as a civil airport over 40 years ago. After all those years it still provides potential customers in this part of the world with an abysmal lack of services, still retains and uses many of its previous military buildings, and still clings onto a general feel of something from the 1960’s that’s never quite got started. It will continue to do so, because nobody, including the local media, appears to question publicly how or why this situation is allowed to continue year after year.
When Bmibaby pulled out, GSM were a welcome replacement for the usual bucket and spade routes, but I always get the impression that MME management then sits back and says ‘that’s a job well done, we can all go to sleep as there’s nothing for us to do for a year or so until another disaster looms large on the horizon’.

[Luke0705]

Yes , Sadly I agree :uhoh:

Nothing actually Seems to change at Our Local.

But then in the same token MME is just a small Airport it is'nt trying to be LHR!

[groundhand]

I've no idea who Skyman works for, I can honestly say that I do not work for any of the airports in the NE. I used to, but not now.

Turn the clock back a few (about 15-17) years. NCL was struggling in relation to other regional airports and particularly EDI, GLA, LBA and MAN.

The marketing team at NCL started their roadshow programme in conjunction with the top tour operators of the time. They hit loads of towns in the 30 - 60 mile radial band. They held roadshows in all the towns around MME, all the Border towns etc. The response was almost instant and massive. They did these for 3 or 4 years and NCL took off with double digit % growth.

AT that time MME's marketing manager - the department of 1 - had virtually no budget and was not as dynamic as his counterpart up North.

The NCL initiative might have fallen flat and cost them thousands, but you have to be prepared to put out if you want to gain.

Don't knock MME/DTV; it's a good airport - I've enjoyed flying from there several times when times/destinations suit better than NCL down the road. It is incredibly difficult for an airport to attract new airlines, get new routes started etc.without giving away any hope of making a shilling - and if you don't make the shilling you might as well not bother.

[Luke0705]

Whats wrong with the thomsonfly Delay of 19 Hours, On the flight To And from Dalaman Making knock on effects :sad:?

[mmeteesside]

The TOM went tech in Dalaman, therefore they brought an extra one up from somewhere else to cover the Corfu flight while the based one did Bourgas after it (finally) got back from Dalaman.

May passenger numbers are below....

Total 75404 for May 2007

Aberdeen 3056 (57.27%)
Alicante 6293 (91.34%) [shared GSM, JKK, TOM]
Amsterdam 10428 (70.84%)
Arrecife 1624 (90.22%)
Bodrum 636 (57.82%)
Bourgas 327 (109.2% based on half an A320 with BGH) [shared BGH, TOM]
Brussels 877 (36%)
Dalaman 3199 (86.91%) [shared OHY, TOM]
Dublin 4721 (56.77%)
Faro 1895 (85.75%)
Gerona 4130 (78.04%)
Heathrow 6927 (67.74%)
Ibiza 2472 (78.93%) [shared GSM, JKK, TOM]
Larnaca 1565 (82.80%)
Mahon 1240 (82.01%)
Malaga 6392 (88.38%) [shared GSM, TOM]
Palma 8346 (77.04%) [shared GSM, IWD, JKK, TOM]
Paphos 1629 (86.19%)
Reus 2215 (80.25%) [shared BMA, TOM]
Tenerife 1865 (98.68%)

As you can see...
Tenerife 98.68% got off to a strong start possibility of more flights next summer? 2 a week in the winter compared to just 1 this summer.
Alicante doing well, we'll see whether the load factor drops when GSM add more flights later this month (June)
Arrecife was another strong performer

As for scheduled flights...
Amsterdam conveyed a lot of passengers as usual, and the Heathrow enjoyed a higher load factor now that ERJ's are being used.
Aberdeen performed well again, Brussels is still growing.
Ryanair's Dublin seems to be fledgling a bit, whereas Gerona is doing much better, almost got more pax with 3 flights a week compared to the Dublin's 5!

[DTVAirport]

The article itself hasn't been on yet, but the headlines of North East Tonight News said something about MME ATC, I only heard the words "Handing over" and "Can't cope" so it doesn't look good. :mad:

[mmeteesside]

Was on BBC Look North as the top story, just saying that they'd been shutting for 30 mins, nothing more than we already know. Also the report said that 2 new controllers had been licenced so that should help solve the problem. Whether that is just 2 current ones being licenced onto radar or completely new ones onto tower I don't know.

[DTVAirport]

Yes sorry, a mistake on my part, it was BBC Look North, not ITV North East Tonight.

[papa oscar]

Also the report said that 2 new controllers had been licenced so that should help solve the problem. Whether that is just 2 current ones being licenced onto radar or completely new ones onto tower I don't know.
There are two new validated controllers in the tower now. Hopefully this will speed up the training of other controllers on radar to help elevate the problems.

[barrowboyblue!]

alleviate not elevate .... (just a typo...we know what you mean though!)

[Luke0705]

What is the Oslo flight It Shown as operated By SAS But its not down in the Route map?

Any info :)

[mmeteesside]

Seems to be a series of charters for (school kids?) has been 4 visits in this series similar to last time (possibly last year?).

Also a quick note that KLM have slots in for 4x daily to MME over the winter, all Fokker 70's. The new flight runs around lunchtime and should prove popular with connections off the later Atlantic flights if it goes ahead (remember they had 4x in the schedule last winter and for this summer until they pulled it, third time lucky maybe).

[Luke0705]

Oh right that would explain why you can't book them :cool:

Must have been going on for about 3 weeks now Yeah :confused:

Also whats the security Situation Fly out on thursday Are they doing Car checks, and Are the security ques Long? Not Panicking just want to Know what to expect!

:}

[DTVAirport]

Also a quick note that KLM have slots in for 4x daily to MME over the winter, all Fokker 70's. The new flight runs around lunchtime and should prove popular with connections off the later Atlantic flights if it goes ahead (remember they had 4x in the schedule last winter and for this summer until they pulled it, third time lucky maybe).I am surprised by this, since they didn't exactly pull the plans for 4x daily this summer, they just upgraded the 1537/8 from a Fokker 70 to a Fokker 100, but after just a mere matter of days, they went back to a Fokker 70? :confused:

Sure, we still get the odd F100, but thats been the case for years, we even get the odd F50.