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hoss
16th Jan 2007, 07:38
Well, it's a week since the announcement and the 'silence is deafening'. Being an optimist I believe this can be a very successful agreement and will provide positive results to both the pilot group and the airline in general.

For those who are wondering, an agreement has been reached between QF and QL to provide a recruitment process for pilots who have been employed for two years or more. The objective of the process is to allow QF acess to a number of quality candidates who are from a known source, conforming to the QF standard.

:)

Keg
16th Jan 2007, 14:09
Interesting. Perhaps QF is finally realising that the 'cost' of restricting those guys access to QF is costing them more than when those guys and gals leave and go elsewhere. Of course a group opportunity list is 'not possible' and yet it appears that the impending pilot shortage may be forcing a change of ideas about retention of crew. Congrats to the QL crew who want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire- albeit a better paying one.

virgindriver
16th Jan 2007, 21:28
It's about time something like this happened. Perhaps when you join the Rat you might start at QF Link and work your way through- surely this will produce a better "product" in the end.

command
16th Jan 2007, 21:38
hey hoss,

where was this announcment made?

Pete Conrad
16th Jan 2007, 21:57
hoss....can only be a good thing for QF in the end...they should really be looking at a group opportunity list however. But it's a good start.

Captain Stoobing
16th Jan 2007, 22:01
Hoss,
I think it is a good thing, but in my opinion this arrangement serves two purposes;
1. To control some of the people leaving.
2. To place Qantas Cadets in Qantaslink.
I have no opinion on either but I feel the majority of crew will only look back as far as 2005, at the failed and flawed Jetstar process.
That would explain the silence.
Good luck on LOA.
Stoob.

Sue Ridgepipe
16th Jan 2007, 23:02
The objective of the process is to allow QF acess to a number of quality candidates who are from a known source, conforming to the QF standard.:)

I really can't imagine how this will change anything. I mean, they have access to these "quality candidates" already do they not, through applications already on file?

It all sounds like a bit of a smoke and mirrors job to me, cause they're **** scared that everyone will bail when VB start recruiting for the jungle jets.

Willie Nelson
16th Jan 2007, 23:13
Cynicism aside, The Jury is going to be out on this one for a while because mainline would not seem to be hiring right now anyway.

For those that would be interested it could be a small but usefull helping hand if management is to be taken at their word. From speaking to the guys in QL who have been around for some time, something very similar was done some years ago and very few guys managed to jump the fence although I do believe that there were some.

Mstr Caution
17th Jan 2007, 00:53
I would expect that the recruitment process is unchanged, only the minimum criteria for employment has changed. ie: waivering educational requirements etc in leiu of an observed performance history in QL.

So guys & gals will still have to jump thru the normal selection hoops.

(However, I have yet to have seen the change of policy & would be interested if someone could post it here)

I wouldnt expect any change to the recruitment process & candidates from QL would still be competing against non QF employees for S/O slots.

That competitive application versus other candidate thing.

There will never never ever be a group opportunity list!

When a QF mainline Captain retires, this results in about 5 subsequent mainline promotions. Adding say, QL & Jetstar to a group opportunity list would only increase the training requirements.

When AFAP was pushing for integration to Qantas Mainline, Strong stated he would sell off the subsidiaries before allowing integration/group opportunities. Nothing has changed since.

The only positive I see would be, making available a pool of candidates(whom would not have otherwise applied) should some pilot shortage occur. Maybe improving subsidiary engagement levels in the process.

Best of luck though to you guys & girls cause you deserve better in my opinion. Isn't there 296 slots comming up over the next 3 years at the big Q? When the A380 arrives anyway!

This is not my opinion as to how to manage subsidiary employees, just the observed facts.:8

hoss
17th Jan 2007, 10:55
Command, we have recieved the information on the QL intranet. It took most of us by surprise and is a nice way to start the new year.

Duke998
17th Jan 2007, 20:49
QF is looking for a place to park their cadets.....
AIPA is looking for as much support from "Q" employees as possible to fight against privatisation....

Why not give those dash drivers a warm fuzzy feeling that they may be able to move across to mainline.

Will go the same way as the two Jetstar expressions of interest... No where..

newsensation
18th Jan 2007, 04:16
The Townsville refueler told a friend of mine that even though Qantas recognises that the Eastern and Sunstate Pilots "are a know source, conforming to the Qantas Standard" will still have to apply just like everyone else and give Qantas permission to access relevant training, checking and recruitment records held by Eastern and Sunstate. If however the candidate has a 3 or above average for FT9's over the past 2 years an Exemption will be available in one of these 3 areas, Education, Skills testing, or Psychometric testing.... so much for a known source already conforming to the Qantas Standard.:)

Enema Bandit's Dad
18th Jan 2007, 05:01
Well at least it gives us a go.

OhForSure
18th Jan 2007, 12:11
Can second the fact that Mainline want to put cadets through QL... dunno specifics but I understand that was part of the deal. Good onya guys. Best of luck. Lets keep everyone moving up through the industry.

chemical alli
18th Jan 2007, 23:12
dont get carried away,boys and girls from ql,sometimes dreams turn into nightmares.

just maybe due to the selection process and your one allowance for education,sych and so forth you actually get offered a position!

so lets start with the decision you then have to make

1.resign and start at the bottom year dot

2.be a s/o for the next five years minimum on any type that qf wants/the worst bid for flying rosters imagineable

3.staff travel back to 72y/j a retiree has more benefits

4.wax your moustache and dont ever call a capt by his first name or wear shorts on a layover in bkk and dont even talk to the cc

5. last but not least pay/which opens up a wide range of issues that i am sure you all can play along such as different pay scales.less is more qf attitude and just be thankful and kiss our shoes we offered you a position

so sounds too good to be true .i agree just a blatant ohh sh*t from the top on stopping transition to jungle jets and to try and at least stop dedicated professionals who for to long have been passed over from walking.
last but not least i am sure a dash has a better view and no long 11 hour boring flts stuck next to some toss bag who thinks his you know what doesnt stink cheers thats all folks

Baxter Dewall
19th Jan 2007, 01:44
This whole stunt is nothing more than that.

As already stated it will go down the same road as the JQ EOI's. What a joke that was.

T&C Capts being told that "you are not suitable or uncompetitive" Yet any F/O that puts in a CV is getting the nod.

Asking QL guys/gals to jump through all these BS hoops AGAIN is nothing more than madness. Only after 2 yrs service can you be considered. Funny that after 2 yrs one has to do P&S and all the other BS again. Don't worry about the excellent FT9's and clean record and known quantity etc.

That counts for zippo!!!!!!!!!


If these people expect very qualified people to do all this nonsense again, lets set a precedent where all those in QF have to jump through the same hoops again shall we. I would love to see many of those "older experienced gentlemen"(and we know who they are) go through all this BS.

Many wouldn't even know what Psych and Skills was. Many of the old guard wouldn't even have attended yr 12, let alone passes in Maths,Physics,English,etc etc.

I'm not canning anyone, but if this is an Equal Opportunity organisation its only fair that EVERYBODY has to jump through the same hoops.

Because we all know that SHL know how to fly an aeroplane.

What a crock of sh1t.

chemical alli
19th Jan 2007, 02:50
why dont the cadets have the same criteria ?surly with their one fifty hours of untold experience & their two years as a s/o ,tuning radios and signing fuel chits they would pass. lets put it into perspective .

dash capt/f/o minimum 8000 hr /cadet 150hr and twin experience .as for the old blazer and tie /tea at five brigade they wouldnt be able to pass the potatoes

Johhny Utah
19th Jan 2007, 06:50
chemical ali - are you seriously suggesting that guys should turn down the offer to earn ~$140K (as second officers)...? Sure, they might not be flying the Dash 8 out to Dubbo, but I given the opportunity to swap rosters, and lifestyles, I know what I would rather be doing...
What promotional prospects do QantasLink pilots have beyond Dash 8 Captain? I'm not having a go at all of the boys & girls, but merely suggesting that there may yet be green grass on the other side of the fence (or at the very least access to the green grass which was previously denied).
Given the choice between Dash 8 captain in Sydney on ~$90K and S/O on the B744 in Sydney on ~$140K I know what I would choose...
Before anyone wades in with the argument that "No wonder Qantas is struggling as S/O's are so expensive" - consider that SIA crew their similar long haul flights with 2 x Captains & 2 x First Officers - at much greater expense than Qantas crewing complement... :\

Agent Mulder
19th Jan 2007, 07:05
I can assure you that SQ F/O's do not earn $140k AUD.

Duke998
19th Jan 2007, 07:39
QF:......So Captain Dashing, you are 50 years old...... tell us why you want to join QF as a second officer.....
Captain Dashing: Well... the money.
QF: Thank you......NEXT.

hoss
19th Jan 2007, 09:40
I dont think Captain Dashing is not 50 years old and besides he resigned a few months ago for a DEFO B744 with KA, serious:ok: .

:)

wayne_king
19th Jan 2007, 10:42
Surely most people can see this for what it is; a lead into cadets entering qlink, and another half baked attempt at dangling a non existant carrot o try and retain existing crew.

Qlink management are finally getting concerned at the number of crew leaving, and more importantly the lack of qualified crew to replace them. So their solution: offer a crap deal that amounts to them basically saying
"we'll print out the application form for you, from there you're on your own", and trying to sell it as a great deal. Anyone who sticks around on the basis of this "agreement", has their head buried so far in the sand, they're ripe for a management slot.

The proof will be in the pudding I suppose, we'll wait and see how many prosper from this deal. Though given it's into the only airline in the region(not even the country) that isn't currently expanding at the moment, i expect we'll see some people turning blue from holding their breath!:D

slice
19th Jan 2007, 11:06
It is official - Qantas cadets to be put online at Qantaslink.
Memo today advises first batch of six to start at the end of February.

ABX
19th Jan 2007, 11:56
There goes the QANTAS Cadet program then.:E

Why take a cadetship when you'll have to slave away for years at QL, then apply to go to the bottom of the ladder in QF.

Wont most people choose to stay out of the cadet show and do GA until they're ready to apply?

Douglas Mcdonnell
19th Jan 2007, 12:23
Well said ABX. Doing your time in GA is definately the best thing for a novice pilot. Learning to operate in the real world without the safety blanket of a more experienced captain holding your hand is like money in the bank.
You can always tell a cadet. Even if they have been around for a few years. Able to quote regs and certain paragraphs of the ops manual. But when it comes to flying a circling approach at the MDA in the crap at night into a ****e little strip with nothing but an NDB, forget it!!. You will here " jesus they didnt show us that at the academy".
There is nothing like flying in the middle of nowhere BY YOUR SELF to make a pilot grow up!!!
Go west young pilots!!
Cheers DM

I'm out of here
19th Jan 2007, 21:19
Apparently they start in two months and will be with Qantaslink for two years. The announcement was made yesterday via a letter:ugh: No wonder the guys are jumping ship..............

podbreak
19th Jan 2007, 22:09
Well said ABX. Doing your time in GA is definately the best thing for a novice pilot. Learning to operate in the real world without the safety blanket of a more experienced captain holding your hand is like money in the bank.
You can always tell a cadet. Even if they have been around for a few years. Able to quote regs and certain paragraphs of the ops manual. But when it comes to flying a circling approach at the MDA in the crap at night into a ****e little strip with nothing but an NDB, forget it!!. You will here " jesus they didnt show us that at the academy".
There is nothing like flying in the middle of nowhere BY YOUR SELF to make a pilot grow up!!!
Go west young pilots!!
Cheers DM

With respect, what a crock. Keg? An apparently ignorant generalisation. If you were involved in any way in C&T at QF you'd be slightly more aware. I haven't come accross one cadet under par. In fact, generally speaking they are extemely proficient multicrew operators, no bad single pilot habbits. I wouldn't liken flying a chieftan to a 767. If you really ever flew with QF cadets DM, I think you'd be a little less bitter, and a little more educated.

Duke998
19th Jan 2007, 22:11
Yes he did hoss mate....and good luck to the lucky three....:)

Poto
19th Jan 2007, 22:28
I wouldn't liken flying a chieftan to a 767. If you really ever flew with QF cadets DM, I think you'd be a little less bitter, and a little more educated.

I don't want to get into this stupid debate about which avenue of training is better.
But this is one of the most stupid statements I have read. The decision making ethos and command qualities attained from buzzing around in a chieftain are exactly like the decision making making and command qualities required to fly any other aircraft. The Size makes no difference buddy.:cool:

Douglas Mcdonnell
20th Jan 2007, 00:34
Pod Break. To answer you question. Yes I have been involved in c&t both here and overseas. In no way have I stated that cadets are bad multi crew operators. Your view that they are "extemely proficient" is correct when all is going to script. Much ike some Asian operators o/s. If its on the green/pink line all is ok.The troubles usually begin when the work load increases. As most older operators know,sometimes to function as a "proficient " multi crew working as an unsupervised individual is required.Of course once the job is done then coming back together as a crew will always be needed. No matter what they drum into you, you just cant buy eperience or put an old head on young shoulders.

One of the common problems that line captains face with cadets is the increased workload associated with a inexperienced F/O. Obviously you dont need to be a cadet to fall into this catagory. The other problem associated with cadets is that they are taking up a seat in an airliner that JOE BLOGS has been busting a gut to get to. Doing the hard yards somewhere in AUS or O/S. For me there is nothing better than seeing the look on a pilots face when he checks out on a jet after years of trying hard in GA. It makes it worth while.

To illustrate my point Id remind you of the Perth 767 incident.
Im out of heres point is a valid one. Eastern is an Airline. Not a cresh!!
They are going to have their work cut out for them!!

Remember if all else fails look out side!!

Cheers DM

Toluene Diisocyanate
20th Jan 2007, 00:35
The offer is not career progression. Anyone who believes so is a fool. You still have to jump the hoops but if yer lucky you might get an exemption in ONE stage. If FT9's are so valuable why then do they STILL have to do a sim ride? You still have to compete with outsiders and if QL doesn't want you to go you're stuffed. Most people see it for what it really is. If something smells like a turd it usually is. And no amount of polish can make it shiny.
The cadets will already have their seniority number and career path mapped out before they join QL. QL is but a stepping stone through the group to the job they were hired for. Prospective QL-QF pilots will still be discriminated against by the boss, just as he did with the so-called Jetsar LOA. FO's are easy to replace. They pay for training.Anecdotal evidence is over 80% of captains are lookin for an out. Once QL lose their experienced blokes maybe they'll realise they can't control our lives.
Right on Baxter:ok:
Borghetti said there will never be a group opportunity list because its TOO EXPENSIVE. Does anyone honestly believe QL will let many go? In the end, you'll all be "uncompetitive".
Bring on the real career progression: Virgin Bush, Skywest, Dragonair, Cathay, HK Express etc. They want you.:ok:
Qantas doesn't.:yuk:

newsensation
20th Jan 2007, 01:23
Apparently Qantas cadets have a Qantas Mainline seniority and when their time is up in Qantaslink they just slide across to Mainline with their already accumulated years of service where as the Qantaslink pilot has to resign give up the years of seniority and start at the bottom... in effect the captain who trained the cadet could be come junior to him/her if he was selected... interesting concept, it should really encourage the Qantaslink pilots to do an outstanding job training the cadits...

podbreak
20th Jan 2007, 09:10
I don't want to get into this stupid debate about which avenue of training is better.
But this is one of the most stupid statements I have read. The decision making ethos and command qualities attained from buzzing around in a chieftain are exactly like the decision making making and command qualities required to fly any other aircraft. The Size makes no difference buddy.:cool:

Ha. Single pilot operations and multicrew ops are light years apart in many, many aspects. I've been there, flown these aircraft. Decision making ethos? including numero uno? no. They are NOT exactly the same. Infact, as I was illuding to before, they differ to a large extent. I've spent eons of time explaining the decision making process' to highly competant chieftan 'captians' and i'll continue to do that until they don't all think that decision making is 'exactly like the decision making and command qualities to fly any other aircraft'. The size is of no consequence, you are correct, the operation is. Understand that and you will progress. This is the point i'm making.

podbreak
20th Jan 2007, 09:51
Pod Break. To answer you question. Yes I have been involved in c&t both here and overseas. In no way have I stated that cadets are bad multi crew operators. Your view that they are "extemely proficient" is correct when all is going to script. Much ike some Asian operators o/s. If its on the green/pink line all is ok.The troubles usually begin when the work load increases. As most older operators know,sometimes to function as a "proficient " multi crew working as an unsupervised individual is required.Of course once the job is done then coming back together as a crew will always be needed. No matter what they drum into you, you just cant buy eperience or put an old head on young shoulders.

One of the common problems that line captains face with cadets is the increased workload associated with a inexperienced F/O. Obviously you dont need to be a cadet to fall into this catagory. The other problem associated with cadets is that they are taking up a seat in an airliner that JOE BLOGS has been busting a gut to get to. Doing the hard yards somewhere in AUS or O/S. For me there is nothing better than seeing the look on a pilots face when he checks out on a jet after years of trying hard in GA. It makes it worth while.

To illustrate my point Id remind you of the Perth 767 incident.
Im out of heres point is a valid one. Eastern is an Airline. Not a cresh!!
They are going to have their work cut out for them!!

Remember if all else fails look out side!!

Cheers DM

OK DM. Let me just point out that at QF the 'overload' factor is constantly visited and revisited in simexs. Ok, to all those who say 'its not the real thing. It isn't. The only time i've experienced a real 'oh sh*t' situation, the 'cadet' has performed. I can therefore vouch for (generalising, obviously, as are a few others) cadets. The particular situation was by no means to script, and I'm pretty sure that makes me a reasonable judge. Cadets are taking up someone elses' seat? SO WHAT! Come on, its not as though others DESERVE it more. You are either good enough or you're not. Don't know which airline you work for, but at QF you don't just become an F/O because you've been there long enough.

Douglas Mcdonnell
20th Jan 2007, 11:39
Ive got to hand it to you PodBreak. Your very good at quoting other posts. Thats be side the point though. I reckon if you took a poll of experienced and probably less experienced captains they would mostly say the same thing. An experienced and seasoned F/O is basically a captain in waiting. Capable, efficient and trustworthy.
At some stage the graphs will cross over and your cadet will become the above. But until they do, they are carried. Its as simple as that. If QF cadets are some how able to jam 35 years of flying into their 20 year old heads then thats great!! Im yet to see it. Some of the petulant posts that weve seen on this thread really make me yearn for the old days when cricketers wore white, summers were hot, boys and girls kissed each other and not the same sex and pilots flew aeroplanes and actually got on!!. Remember the Bushies!!!

My trip around this fine country is only 18 months Away!!! Im busy logging ICUS on the Jaico!!!

Fly safe DM.

BackdoorBandit
20th Jan 2007, 14:36
Ahhhh, at last, 200 hour pilots in the RH seat of a QL Dash. The Training Captains are gunna be knocking each other over, for the "privilage" to train them!

Keg
20th Jan 2007, 15:36
....until they do, they are carried. Its as simple as that.

Strewth. I must have a bit to go. I was carried about August last year in Singapore. I'm not sure how they got me in the cab. I still don't remember getting to my room. I do remember the head ache the next day. Last time I go drinking with THAT skipper. :ok:

(You know I love ya JP!). :}

badboiblu
20th Jan 2007, 21:57
Without getting into how good or bad the Cadets are, but if QF and QL think its ok for a 200 hours F/O to fly the dash with upto 72 pax.
Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747? Or are they thinking that wouldn't be safe?

Pete Conrad
20th Jan 2007, 23:43
I have a rather philosophical view of this..neither for or against cadets, but if they put 200 hour guys and gals in the right seat of 73's, A320's etc in Europe and we don't see huge numbers of them crashing...well, the argument is really a moot point.

The only thing I will say is that some cadets need to be a little more humble.........

podbreak
21st Jan 2007, 00:05
DM, I think we'll have to leave this at agreeing to disagree! :ok:

Poto
21st Jan 2007, 05:03
Single pilot operations and multicrew ops are light years apart in many, many aspects.
You are right Poddy I can't run my Ipod when I am operating multi crew - Light years apart I tells ya!:ok:

WynSock
21st Jan 2007, 05:57
Hiya,

Just as an example, I did my Qlink line training a while ago. When I joined I had had around 5500 hours, including a year as a Dash8 FO with a previous employer.

Landing an aeroplane is, as we know, only a fraction of the skills required to operate a flight safely and smoothly - but I think landing might be an indicator of the new pilots grip of the finer points of flying that particular type.

Boy did I smack a few of those 50 pax loads on the deck. Of course I'm not the best pilot in the world and at times I had to rely on experience getting me out of trouble. But it was my experience that stopped tricky things from getting ugly.

What I'm trying to say is I just don't think the right seat of a Dash is the place to be learning from your mistakes. It seems to me to be one of the hardest planes I have flown to keep on a stable approach profile and land consistantly smoothly.

Toluene Diisocyanate
21st Jan 2007, 07:36
Interesting.
1. The way things are at the moment in the training department, they might be hard pushed to find anyone (apart from checkies) willing to train them. Especially when they are actively trying to stop people leaving, even to outside jobs (we know whose making the phone calls to Dragon Cathay etc). Market forces, not the SNAKE will determine their futures.
2. This'll roll on through to the line pilots. The cadets will be the highest paid radio operators in the group (not their fault but a matter of principle).
Time to offer some real career prospects to your regional staff QF :yuk:

Last one out turn the lights off please:ok: :8

Iinthesky
21st Jan 2007, 08:29
I had marked the quarterly cadet bashing on my calendar but it seems to have come early....

While on this issue I can appreciate that there are some very strong feelings, the crux of the majority of these posts is: it's not fair. I have had to bide my time and do it the hard way, so should they. In an ideal world everyone would have to, sadly the world is not fair. The best thing to do is learn to accept this fact.

Taking my flying cap off momentarily; I had to work hard in the occupations that preceded my flying career including some long hours, unpaid overtime, rejected leave and additional work to be rewarded with some new, fresh university graduate given a supervisors role over the top of me. While this initially incensed me, eventually we forged a good working relationship and after he cut his teeth in this new role he turned out to be (much to my disgust) an effective team player that performed in his job well. As much as it pains me to say it, had the business put up some barriers to his initial employment he might have ended up working for a competitor. It was apparent to me that although his experience basket was not as volumous as mine, his was a different shape with a few things in it that I had not seen.

Back to the issue at hand: I have had the pleasure of "babying" (if you like) a few relatively inexperienced pilots in my time. The same pilots that have jumped the queue and 'took the seat of someone else'. I don't begrudge them of the choices that they or the company have made, indeed should that have been an option for me I probably would have taken it. They struggle at first. I'm sorry to disappoint but everybody that is new to a type struggles at first and needs to be carried. The number of hours is not an accurate indicator of how quickly one will find their feet either(or undercarriage as previously suggested). Some very experienced folk simply can't get their head around the dimensions and characteristics of the new type while other less experienced pilots seem to fly like they were born in the thing (and some also look that way).

Once new pilots start becoming part of the team, I must admit it is usually the pilots with a few hours under their belt that offer well thought out ideas and other useful tidbits. However I am constantly reminded that though the lower time pilots might not have the same sized experience basket, it really is shaped differently. Perhaps it was the agility of their minds or just some thinking outside the box but a few have presented some alternate solutions to problems that I probably would have reached, eventually. And as all pilots new to type continue to learn, they become more effective team members in that setting. That should be extended to all pilots regardless of previous experience.

To those new cadets going to QL, good luck, it will be hard work but know that not every captain will be out there to get you as previously suggested. To the QL pilots that have bargained with QF to change the entry policy into mainline, good luck to you also but understand that you are sitting in the seat of some one who has just as much experience as you and HAS jumped through all the hoops (tongue wedged firmly in cheek).

Yet another storm in a tea cup, put it to bed.

Watching,
I

hoss
21st Jan 2007, 09:14
Well I had no intention of this thread turning into a cadet bashing.

It seems a few of you haven't seen the latest FAM ammendment for advisory calls. If a thread drifts out of tolerance, the standard call is 'keyboard' and the response is 'checked' or 'get stuffed';) .

Good luck to all:) .

LookinDown
21st Jan 2007, 09:59
badboiblu...
'Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747? Or are they thinking that wouldn't be safe?"


They already are on 737. (Wish i was clever enough to work out how to show quotes on this forum)

badboiblu
21st Jan 2007, 10:25
LookinDown are you saying that there are Cadets with 200 hours flying as F/O on the Qantas 737's?

neville_nobody
21st Jan 2007, 10:55
Cadets on the 737 have progressed through the QF system and do not have 200 hours. They would have several thousand, but not much more than 100 PIC.

Interestingly enough after these guys started get checked out on the 737 a new requirement came out that those with minimal experience to receive compulsory extra training.

It appears that captains had a few "scares" with the cadets. SO the extra training was just to give the cadets a bit more exposure. The cadets then, had no experience other than training aircraft plus probably 767 or 747 SO time.

I agree with what was written earlier, as long as everything goes according to plan ultra low time pilots are OK it just when it's all goes pear shaped that the difference starts to show.

lahso29
21st Jan 2007, 13:22
WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????

THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.

SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”

IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????

HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS

:ugh: WHAT A JOKE

Douglas Mcdonnell
21st Jan 2007, 13:24
No matter how you dress it up cadets are a handfull. Its not " cadet bashing " its just the way of the world. Touchy feely modern day takes on common sense issues tend to leave the obvious often unsaid. Id tend to think that the 25 year old who has been in GA for years,existing in **** holes away from the luxuries of family and friends will always have the repect of most in the industry. Imagine the feeling after years and years at the coal face, doing it right on a daily basis, when you read some of the stuff on this thread.

You only have to take a look on Qrewroom to get an insight as to the cadet mind.

The absolute shame of modern day flying is that it has become strictly for the well healed. What a disaster for Australian aviation. My hat goes off to the many boys and girls flying every day and night going in and out of the many other ports in this country.

Once again I refer you to the Perth incident.

DM

Sue Ridgepipe
21st Jan 2007, 21:24
So do the cadets have to cough up $10k for the endorsement or is it a freebie?
And if they do have to pay, do they have a choice about going to QL, or are they just told "Son you're going to work for QL and it will cost you $10k".

thinking pilot
21st Jan 2007, 22:20
There are sufficient pilots in AUSTRALIA to cover all job vacancies, this is not Europe.

AUSTRALIA DOES NOT NEED CADETS

Dagger
21st Jan 2007, 22:26
I have nothing against cadets in general, I am sure that with hard work most may one day develop into relatively normal people. But the reality is that they are taking slots from people who have done the hard yards and are thus are more deserving. In effect they are cheating the system and I find the whole set up morally bankrupt.

I think a fairer solution would be an industry wide seniority system based on the day your CPL was issued. This would need to be moderated with some kind of yardyardometer system that could accelerate your progression, with factors such as stench and dirtiness of you place of work, average daytime shade temperatures, dodginess of employer, isolation and maybe even a straydog visibilty factor included. This would all be logged, factored and acknowledged and make sure everything was taken into account and that we could compare apples with apples. This would ensure that there could be no cheating the system.

Then all that would be needed would be some kind of industrywide job progression plan that made sure everyone got to experience the worst of the worst before they progressed to better jobs, eventually leading to an airline position.

Of course there would need to be an age restriction on when you could complete your CPL to ensure QF Captains little sons don't cheat the system by doing theirs earlier than anyone else and thus get an unfair advantage.

I really think this would work. I am also sick of the silence regarding this issue and believe we need a more regular robust discussion on cadetships, cadets, and how bad they really are. Until this issue is sorted I firmly recommend we somehow turn every even closely related post into a cadet related one.:zzz:

freddyKrueger
21st Jan 2007, 23:23
I am genuinely curious about the timing of this move. Given that this has been mooted since 1992, and the level of hostility it would generate, why now?
The first law of aviation suggests management is ever only looking out for its own interest. The second law says delay the decision until something is about to break.
Some possible reasons that come to mind.
* Genuine desire to give cadets experience. This could be gained externally however, although management lack control.
* Lack of applicants off the street to QL.
* Less likely to leave to greener pastures than current FO's as they will have a QF seniority slot.
* Gaining the required experience to go straight into the RH seat. But where? Mainline/ J*/ Jetconnect/ Strike breakers?
I'm sure there are many others.

The sweetner is the the "progression" to mainline for current QL crew. I think most can see through this ploy as window dressing.
Just curious about the bigger picture...

TROJAN764
21st Jan 2007, 23:51
It will be interesting to see what happens if (when?) the Multi Crew pilot licence comes in.

ABX
22nd Jan 2007, 00:15
Har har har ... what a great belly laugh.:}

Dagger, you really cracked me up.:ok:

Cheers.

gloriais18
22nd Jan 2007, 01:26
My dad says..

Freddy's proposition may not be too far off the mark

From the Cabin Crew forum Qantas iv thread "oho" posts in part:

"Long Haul -v- Short Haul - Nope. Think one division - Mid Haul! 737's are probably going to go to regional."

bullamakanka
22nd Jan 2007, 02:13
Does anyone know where the cadets will sit on the QL totem pole? Will they get a position relitave to their start date with QL or is it back dated to the begining of the training for the cadetship?

bulla

lahso29
22nd Jan 2007, 02:17
ok ok ok if they really need some industry experience.

How about.......

2 years of polishing the pilots shoes as they board?

or

2 years of qf jepp amendments?

or


2 years of picking the pilots up from home and driving them to work followed by driving them home at the end of duty?

all on a cusual ga award of course.

bushy
22nd Jan 2007, 09:17
The whole business of conning thousands of young people into spending huge ammounts of time and money getting qualifications and experience in GA so they can get an airline job is just obscene.
Many, many of them drop out after a few years, and many get the GA experience and get no further. Some make it. I have seen some of GA's failures make it into major airlines.
It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly intelligent people, capable of getting licences and ratings, and doing difficult work for years did not have the forethought to research the situation before they started.
Whenever flying schools get short of work they talk to journalists about the "pilot shortage" thats happening.
An intelligent, capable person I know, made it home to the coastal city for XMAS, having spent most of the previous year travelling from one side of the country to the other, looking for that first flying job. Unsucessfully. Not unusual.
This is slowly changing a little, due to the improvement in modern communications. The surplus is now mainly low time people. They become aware of the real situation faster now.
I hope there is a boost in recruiting soon, so some of these pilots can get where they want to go,followed by the introduction of the MCPL, and some sort of pretraining assessment and agreement with potential employers. That way flying training may bcome a reasonable investment.
I predicted some time ago that this obscene lottery was destroying GA, and this rot would also invade the major airlines. It appears to be happening.
Tjhis obscene lottery is Australia's shame.

Ratter
22nd Jan 2007, 14:03
What wonderful news...... NOT!!!

It is bad enough that these 150 hour children are pillaging the GA arena for people looking for an entry level RH seat turboprop position... now they get into QL.

These cadets get a seniority number when they start training... so does that mean that when the QL guys who actually have experience get their seniority numbers that they will have a lower number than any cadet that has started the cadetship within the last two years?

What will happen with the $10K pay for endorsement....... will the cadets get a freebie? do they pay? or are they gonna abolish the pay up front? If this is the answer to the mass QL exodus surely they wont have to charge up front any more???? What am i thinking.... any way to a$& f#@k pilots is the general road travelled by majority of aviation management in this sensibility foresaken business.

If i was an entry level FO for QL i would have some serious concerns about this new "agreement" so to speak.

With the rumoured level of recruiting that will be done over the next two years with mainline, would you really want to lock yourself out because you are expected to provide two years of service? Well if QL pay for the endorsement a return of service is by no means unreasonable but if you paid for it....... you fork out $10K for the priveledge of flying a turboprop at the pay rate of $49K P.A and you get to miss out on an enormous amount of recruiting in mainline because you haven't worked for QL for two years yet. But i guess you are compensated by that warm and fuzzy feeling of satisfaction in knowing that you have slogged it out in the most remote parts of the country just to get that illusive 500 multi-command and you have earned the opportunity to climb up to this next rung of prositution...... Woops i forgot to mention that the 500 multi is now arbitrary coz these 18 year old walking wallets don't have to do it because they are Cadets..... Oh and by the way, if they started their GFPT training before you completed stage 3 you will take the back seat in promotion prospects by comparison.

Cadetships are wrong on so many levels! :=

I have nothing against the cadets personally. The institution that creates this joke of a process should be ashamed!

Rant over!

Safe flying!

Ratter :ok:

Toblerone
22nd Jan 2007, 23:44
Has anyone cadet bashing here ever actually met a cadet? Because I know a few of them. Of those that I know not one of them is the son of a Qantas captain. Every one of them is in debt or borrowed the money from their parents who remortgaged their homes. Every one of them is seriously appreciative of where they are and works extremely hard in their work placement.

I know a Qantas captain's son who applied to the cadetship program and didn't get in and is now working in GA. So being the son of a captain is not a ticket into the cadetship like some imply.

Some of the people I know didn't get into the cadetship the first time and so worked multiple day and night jobs to pay to get their commercial licence and apply later.

In every industry there are cadesthip programs, scholarship programs and many industries are much worse than aviation. The cadets still have to pass exams and flying tests to get into the program, they didn't just get a red carpet rolled out for them. The opportunity was there for everyone to apply. If you chose not to apply on moral grounds then live with your decision, don't take it out on the people who saw an opportunity and took it.

Cadets make up a minority of pilots at Qantas. If you sit up nights plotting ways to detroy them then you're wasting your time.

M.25
23rd Jan 2007, 00:11
So where will the future captains come from if they use cadets in the RHS?

*Lancer*
23rd Jan 2007, 00:11
One of the best posts in a long time Toblerone.

podbreak
23rd Jan 2007, 00:15
Ratter, what an outdated view. Welcome to reality, many airlines take only cadets. In fact I heard Manning himself even mooted this as a future prospect for QF. EVERY industry has a form of advantage in the way of scholarships and cadetships. Any young pilot can apply for a cadetship. If they don't get in, thats tuff luck. I won't dwell on this because if you cannot accept the way it is, its your problem (try reading Iinthesky's post again, pretty much sums it up).

DM, can you explain the 'perth incident' in a little more detail? Exactly how does this demonstrate the uselessness of cadets? If all young pilots should get this bush experience, what of the Air Force boys and gals? are they too being 'carried'?

Please don't mistake my support of cadets, I too was skeptical of the program. I do however, work with cadets. None that I have seen are in any way carried. There is no issue among the majority of QF pilots with cadets, and i'd suggest the bulk of those here who are so critical in their opinions of this lot have never flown or worked with QF cadets (I cannot speak for other airlines, obviously).

As its been said before, lets bury this issue, its dividing and destructive.

Over and gout
23rd Jan 2007, 00:27
:yuk: WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????
THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.
SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”
IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????
HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS
:ugh: WHAT A JOKE
Agreed ! The sooner people stop buying a job the better....

Toblerone
23rd Jan 2007, 00:35
WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????

THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.

SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”

IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????

HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS

:ugh: WHAT A JOKE


let me guess...... you failed the psych test:rolleyes:

Tempo
23rd Jan 2007, 00:52
Sitting here now reading some of the above posts, I wonder...looking back when you took that first step to gaining your licence was your thinking "Geeze I cant wait to get out there and get my CPL, leave family and friends in search of a job, work in bars/servos etc whilst struggling to pay the rent and buy an occasional beer whilst looking for first job, finally get job and work ring out flying clapped out singles in the bush for little more or less than working in bars/servos, have to go back and beg for servo/bar job back because casual flying wage is not paying the bills, finally get paid full time, finally get enough experience to get onto twins, getting twin time, having to find another job when company goes bust, dealing with bosses intent on breaking every rule possible, finally getting a bit of turbine time and MAYBE one day I will get to where I want and fly a jet for some good coin. Anyway, here is my 50K fingers crossed"

Or, on the other side of the coin, apply for a cadetship, do CPL, get a job in a good aircraft with pay that probably takes a 3-4 years to reach in GA, get to live in a reasonable city and are pretty much guaranteed a job flying internationally on a nice shiny (albiet a bit old these days) jet.

For me, the cadet program was not available when I started my training but I can almost guarantee that I would have taken the option at the time. I had to go through option 1 and looking back now I enjoyed it (but everyone always remembers the good times) but honestly, who would knock back option 2 given the choice before they started training.

I dont think that Qantas/QL etc owes anyone a job in this country. Sure its not Europe and we probably dont need a cadet program but thats the choice made by Qantas and its probably here for a long time. Doing thousands of hours in the bush is not automatically a right to get a job ahead of someone applying for the cadet program...why..beause Qantas are the ones handing out the jobs and its their choice.

I know and work with plenty of cadets and they are all great guys and dont take anything for granted. They should not feel 'grateful' for their jobs more than anyone else in the industry...they applied for a job and got it. Good luck to them.

As far as the bashing about the flying skills go, well on that one I cant judge. I have flown with a number of Captains who went throught the cadet program and they are no different than anyone else.

Anyway, thats my rant....am off to watch some cricket.

Ratter
23rd Jan 2007, 05:04
Hi Podbreak, I agree that my train of thought may be somewhat outdated. However, my frustration stems from the fact that i have worked very hard, often in not very nice places to gain the experience that QL have been requiring to be considered. To then be told that after 6 years in the industry that i am placed in the same bucket as a 200 hour pilot just because they were a part of the cadetship doesn't fill me with joy. I agree that people are not owed jobs but i think that there are many out there that are deserving of an opportunity to try for a job with QL..... to be passed up because the quota is being filled by cadets is not something i find very fair. If Qantas cannot find enough turboprop places in GA for "industry based experience" then perhaps there should be less cadets.
I am sure that the cadets are great people.... as i said in my earlier post i do not like the cadetship, the people are not the problem it is the program.
A very good point raised though, where will QL find the captains of the future... i guess that means that QL captains will most likely passed over for a chance with mainline, after all.. they won't want to end up short of captains in QL.
Am interested to see what the future holds.
Safe flying :ok:
Ratter

LookinDown
23rd Jan 2007, 06:48
Thank goodness for the reality checks by a number of informed posters. The smell of rancid sour grapes was becoming just too overpowering.

To reiterate some of the positive points made re cadets and the cadetship program…
· They come from a whole range of backgrounds. Some are the sons and daughters of captains but most are not. Some are privileged but most are not. Some have had their hefty training fees or part thereof (Level 1 Cadets up to $100K) paid for them. Most have gone into hoc till they are 65.
· The selection process is protracted, intensive, all encompassing and successful applicants are exceptional people (according to the employer’s selection criteria). He who has the most hours does not win and nor should he. Airlines want a lot more than just ‘hours’.
· There are exceptions to every rule, but of the 7 or 8 cadets that I have come into contact with, none take their role lightly, all work bloody hard, and their temporary employers are very happy with their performance to the point of a number being offered permanent jobs.

And to add a couple of my own…
· Rather than spread cadets, who are compelled to fly for a regional operator for at least 2 years, all around the country in what can be sometimes obscure situations, it makes perfect sense for this time to be done with QL.
· We are talking relatively small numbers of cadet pilots. There'll be minimal impact on progression to the LH seat for others.
· A few years ago cadets would have been given their seniority # and gone straight into mainline as S/Os. Graduates since then have been compelled to fly with regionals. Its not their choice or preference although few would not acknowledge the benefits.
· On expiry of the contract with the regionals, cadets are then out on their own awaiting a course. Many have been not employed in flying for upwards of 6 months and will likely remain this way until Q decides to move. When is anybody’s guess. This wandering in the wilderness is regressive and something that I believe cannot be justified.
· Cadets pay for their endorsements averaging $10K-$20+K.
· Some of the comments by previous posters may have been aimed at the cadetship program but the individuals themselves have been blatantly sideswiped in the process and they do not deserve that.

Badboiblu,
I am saying that there ARE cadets with 200 hrs flying 737s in Oz. There have been numerous references on this site to this being an increasingly common event worldwide, especially in Asia.

badboiblu
23rd Jan 2007, 08:08
LookinDown
Can you please tell me one Cadet with 200 hours who is flying as a F/O
on a Qantas 737. Not a Cadet who start with a regional or as a S/O on a 747 a few years ago and now has 2000 hours and is a F/O on a 737.

LookinDown
24th Jan 2007, 01:24
badboiblu,
"Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747?"

Where do you think cadets were first placed prior the reintroduction of the industry placement scheme? As S/Os on 747 (though some might argue this is a fate worse than death).

Yes I can but the 737s aren't operated by 'QANTAS' as such.

B A Lert
24th Jan 2007, 01:48
......... the 737s aren't operated by 'QANTAS' as such.


Que? What substance have you been using?

Keg
24th Jan 2007, 10:09
ROFLMAO. This thread has been the funniest thing in ages. Thanks for the laugh. It made my night. I just LOVE it when people who wouldn't know me from a brick state certain things about my appreciation for the job, skill level, motivation and any other plethora of attitudes and behaviours simply because I did a cadetship some fifteen and a half years ago. You guys are great. :ok:

I won't go as far to state that those who denigrate cadets have failed the psych test....that would be stooping to your level of stupidity. I will state that some contributors need to consider their attitudes before coming up to a psych or an interview with QF. If the attitude is as poisonous as the comments on here suggest then you may struggle to meet the grade on the psych. Of course even if you get through that you still have to contend with the former cadet who may be on the interview panel. I bet you don't have the guts to share your stated thoughts about cadetships then. :rolleyes: :E

Still, it's been a while since THY has come up so perhaps it was time. Thanks again for the giggle.

Boomerang
24th Jan 2007, 21:17
Over and Gout, and Lahso, you guys really need to relax. I have worked my way up through GA and am finally on a jet. It's taken me the best part of 10 years to do it, so what! GA is hard enough without worrying who to blame, or being jealous that someone else was fortunate enough to get your "dream job" via a quicker route. I am currently working with guys straight out of their training. The last aircraft they landed was a Seneca, the next will be an Airbus. Hundreds have gone before them. They haven't bought a job, they have to make it through airline selection and training just like the rest of us, without any guarantees. They are top blokes and have done well to get this far. They have a better attitude and aptitude than other people I know. They were given a chance and took it, well done to them.

Bouncing Limes
29th Jan 2007, 08:44
Lahso29,

I know quite a few cadets from various positions within the program. All are from VERY varied backgrounds. Some are straight out of school, some are moving into their second or third career. Some had the bill footed by their parents, others worked VERY hard to save money so start the program, some borrowed from the QF credit union, some have families or long term relationships... but ALL of them appreciate the opportunity. I've heard of a couple that have slipped through the cracks, but statistically speaking, that's bound to happen with anything. I'm sure you've met your fair share of chicken feeders in your time too.

Why would a company take on a cadet? Well, they can work just as productively as a 'hard yard' FO, and check to line hours between the two paths aren't too skewed towards any expected results. You will hang onto the tail for the first few sectors due to the speed that things happen at. The same will happen when you move from a turbo prop onto a jet. Taking a step from single pilot to multi crew is a big step for anyone too, and the cadetship focuses on multi crew ops. Cadets don't get upgraded in their industry placement. The company who they are placed with will therefore have a competent FO that won't jump ship for two years.

Those 6 FOs in QL will be replaced in two years time by another 6 cadet FOs (assuming that the company doesn't want or need a larger number for their future plans), so it's a perpetual system. The company then has sufficient stability in the QF FOs to plan for future growth (for what it's worth in this volatile industry), which they will use YOU for.

They will still need FOs who have done the 'hard yards' as you put it, and these FOs will need to have more hours of a certain variety for a future command. These companies will recruit YOU for a future command position, not just to be a career FO.

Please don't confuse this issue with 'job stealing'. You have not earned a position in an airline because you had a job doing more 'hard yards' than someone else. What if someone with 2000 hours got a job in the RHS of a Dash 8, when you applied with 3500 hours? What if an ex RAAFy, who also hasn't done the 'hard yards', stole your job? How do you feel when someone with 500 hours gets into Virgin/QF ahead of you?

I'm sure that you have learned a lot about flying and yourself, and your experiences have made you a better person. That's great. But you can develop as a person by doing other things too. Traveling, working in various professional and non professional fields (physiotherapy, accounting, police force, cinema projectionist, hell even a McDonalds manager, etc), having a family, holding down three to five non flying jobs, going to uni, etc. Anything that challenges you to manage your time, interact with different people and to step up and face problems will make you appreciate what's behind you, and what's in front of you. And it will better prepare you for the next time life throws a curve ball. But enough of my sober philosophical thought processes...

Being a crew member of a modern jet is not all about flying. In fact, modern autopilots can fly the thing more efficiently and with more finesse than the most experienced QF cadet in the company (had to throw that in :ok:). They are designed so 200 hour pilots can fly them (been happening in Europe for years). It's about managing a complex piece of machinery and getting the best out of the people that work in and around it (that holds true for ANY multi crew operation). In an abnormal situation, each crew member has a different skill set of life experiences to draw on when brain storming on possible solutions. The confidence to discuss options openly with peers and superiors and then make decisions to deal with the situation comes from LIFE experience, not necessarily FLYING experience. People and time management skills are becoming exponentially more necessary to operate these things and that's why airlines look well past the log book, and really want to know what you're about and what makes you tick.

But really, if you aren't enjoying this industry, then leave it. I'm sure that you will soon find (as I believe someone has already pointed out) that EVERY industry has many avenues to achieving the same goal - you just have to live with the decision that YOU make. Getting blindly worked up about something you have limited knowledge of and no control over is a waste of energy.:bored:

Good day to you, sir.

bullamakanka
29th Jan 2007, 09:49
Isnt the Dash 8 is quite a manual aircraft compared to most modern jets that cadets usually go into? How do the guys who fly them think the lower time cadets will go. I am not trying to give these guys a hard time, just wondering.

Do you think the travelling public will care/know that low hour guys are up the front?

B

astroboy55
29th Jan 2007, 10:44
Bouncing Limes,
That is probably the best post I have ever read regarding this topic. I only hope everyone can take something away from it.
Well said mate. :ok:

womble006
29th Jan 2007, 10:53
Bouncing Lines, well said

GUARD
29th Jan 2007, 11:56
I have trained Qantas cadets and currently fly the Dash-8.

The cadets responded very well indeed at the IFR level and really came into their own during LOFT training and demonstrated that they are a cut above the average.

I have followed their progress through to mainline and they seem to perform as well as anyone else in the system.

However, in response to Bullamakanka's question of how they will go in the Dash, I would have to say it might be with some difficulty. Not so much from an operational multi-crew role but our type of flying can be distinguished at night with a few thunderies around and conducting an NDB to the minima and maybe even circling off it and then a missed approach to somewhere else. The reason is that not all Captains are trainers ( obviously ) and after 4 or 5 sectors they may not have the spare capacity to be monitoring someone quite junior. Sometimes its enough just to do your own job either flying or offering good support. It doesn't take much for the whole thing to start to get out of shape.

I'm not trying to make the job out to be dark and stormy heroics but it can be quite tough and sometimes you have to draw on everything from your experience base just to get in somewhere. If you don't have an experience base then.....who knows!

Its certainly not a clear cut scenario.

And just to clarify, cadets don't start their training with seniority numbers and its a very very competetive process with significant demands imposed that a lot of typical GA guys would have some difficulty meeting.

GUARD:ok:

brown_hornet
29th Jan 2007, 12:04
Isnt the Dash 8 is quite a manual aircraft compared to most modern jets that cadets usually go into? How do the guys who fly them think the lower time cadets will go. I am not trying to give these guys a hard time, just wondering.

Do you think the travelling public will care/know that low hour guys are up the front?

bullamakanka, if the dash8 is considered a 'manual' aircraft then i hate to think what the likes of the metro, jetstream etc are. Sure, it doesn't have the systems and autopilot of a modern jet but it certainly does have a very good autopilot system, arguably the best feature of the aircraft (especially in the ancient -100's). I have a lot of respect for the guys that fly around in the metros and the like without having so much as a wing leveller and considering MANY cadets can handle that with no problem i see no issues with the dash. As for the travelling public, considering most of the flights i'm on the passengers are out in noddy-land very quickly they either don't know or don't care, i'll assume the latter.
Cheers.:)