Aerospace Engineering noobie

[Kerosine]

I currently 19 years old with a fascination for engineering and flight, and so I am going in for the course mentioned above.

I've applied to Liverpool, Brunel, Bath, Sheffield and Manchester.

Does anyone have any experiences of these Unis and the courses they offer?

Further from that, what kind of employment prospects are there for post grads?
I was particularly interested in working for NATS as a direct entry graduate, but ideally I would love to work for BAE in some kind of research and Development.

Am I naive or just like everyone else with a passion for engineering?


Thanks folks,


Dave

[rigger468]

hi Dave,

i have just graduated from Kingston University in Aircraft Engineering albeit I am considerably older than you. In fact I have been in full time employment 3 years longer than you've been alive!

However, if you are looking for a good University with an excellent reputation in the industry and location etc then Kingston is definitely worth a look.

The engineering faculty is extremely well staffed and and like I say its location just a few miles from Heathrow make it ideal for attracting some very good contacts in the industry.

Take a look! at www.kingston.ac.uk

Cheers m'dear, JJ

[bentosx]

I dont think you are dreaming with regards working for BAE, I used to work for them they are an excellent company. I had an apprenticeship with them which I suggest is your best option you can get paid for learning. If you are succesfull they will put you on an engineering course that they feel would suit you, Wharton is probably your closest site.

Just a bit of advice but whatever you choose I wish you luck

[Genghis the Engineer]

I currently 19 years old with a fascination for engineering and flight, and so I am going in for the course mentioned above.

I've applied to Liverpool, Brunel, Bath, Sheffield and Manchester.

Does anyone have any experiences of these Unis and the courses they offer?
Further from that, what kind of employment prospects are there for post grads?

I was particularly interested in working for NATS as a direct entry graduate, but ideally I would love to work for BAE in some kind of research and Development.

Am I naive or just like everyone else with a passion for engineering?



A trivial point of terminology: "postgrad" = somebody doing a second degree, "graduate" = somebody with a degree.

Anyhow, employment opportunities seem to be very good at the moment, and I doubt you'll regret doing a degree at any of those universities.

But (there's always a but) don't for a moment think that the degree itself makes you all that employable, or that getting your first job (with NATS, BAE(S) or any of the miriad of other players). It is an essential for many aero-eng jobs (certainly most of the jobs that I've done), but it is your experience and abilities that'll really make you employable.

So, pick whichever of those universities suits you - there isn't a bad one on your list (although each arguably has its specialisms - for example at Brunel the Aerospace degree is more mecheng for people who want to work in the aerospace industry, and if you really want to do aerospace engineering there you'd be better off on their Aviation degree), but en-route get as much real knowledge, experience and contacts as possible - that is what will get you the job you really want at the end.

I would suggest looking at the places themselves (and which are most likely to suit you as a place to live for 4 years) as well as the specialist subjects taught in the later years - see what is most likely to suit your own lifestyle and career aspirations.

G

[N1 Vibes]

Dave

not having taken the Uni route myself, this advice is from other friends I have in the business.

You don't always need to have a degree in aeronautical engineering specifically, if you line up in an interview with a solid engineering degree and a wholehearted passion for aviation you have just as much if not more chance often. If not more, as your opponent can tell them the aerodynamic properties of a sycamore leaf, but not how many rotors a RR Trent 900 engine has, as installed on the A380....

To give yourself a wider chance perhaps a good mechanical engineering degree from places like Bath or Imperial College London may be an alternative. And then continue enjoying aviation as a hobby until you have to make it your chosen day-job.

Basically don't get bogged down too early. Hope that makes sense.

Brgd's

N1 Vibes

Oh, and good luck!

[rigger468]

Hi ya Flame,

Doesnt sound like your friend has much staying power. One term is hardly long enough to judge a whole Uni and it doesnt sound like they did an awful lot of the research you sensibly suggest. personally I was a part time student who didnt have to live there but having been brought up in the area I have a reasonable grasp of what it has to offer.

i guess it depends what it is you want from your years spent at Uni. If you want it easy and not too stressful then I would suggest a sociology course...lol! Most of your study can justifiably be done in the pub! If you want a decent grounding in engineering then you have to be prepared to work for it. Maybe sponsorship by your employer would be a better way to approach it giving you the experience and the education in one handy package. Thats what alot of the guys on our course were doing, but success depends on your motivation levels.

Cheers m'dear, JJ

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that it's telling that Flame's friend did a Foundations of Engineering course.

These are there for people who haven't got sufficient Maths and Physics grades at A-level, or who did the wrong A-levels (or lack some equivalent). Frankly, I don't think that many universities run them very well - huge class sizes, limited tutor support, a great deal of self reliance required.

To be honest, the best place to learn maths and physics is at school in an A-level class, or at a technical college on some form of post GCSE engineering related course - not in classes of 150 (I'm not kidding!) in a university whose real teaching talent really starts at the first year of undergraduate, not a year earlier in FoE.

That said, anybody who can survive FoE with good enough grades to enter a degree probably has a good future!

So, I'd take that post as more a (probably justifiable) condemnation of FoE courses in general, than of Kingston University, or or studying undergraduate Aero Eng. (Even Aero-Eng proper is fairly soul-destroying in the first year with huge amounts of maths, structures, basic fluid mechanics and so-on, but it gets a heck of a lot better after that.)

G

[rigger468]

Ghengis,

You're probably right about the content and support given on foundation courses and I'm not really qualified to comment on that as I've never done one. My Honours degree was done on the back of 20 odd years experience in the RAF so more the University of Life rather than an actual academic institute.

Assuming that the guy has the basic qualifications then he will enjoy the better support on the under grad course which I know is good at kingston.

Interestingly more than half our course got firsts and 2:1 and we were juggling full time employment and families but were generally older so potentially had a little more expperience in striking the balance. Also we weren't as easily distracted by the "extra curricular" activities being old and surprisingly less attractive to the rest of the population although it wasn't for want of trying...LOL!

JJ

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm sure there's a self-dependent work ethic that isn't necessarily instilled in school (which tends to be quite organised on behalf of the students, rather than by them) that a decent amount of working experience helps with a lot.

I did my first degree after a short apprenticeship, and must admit to enjoying many of the distractions available when in your early 20s! This probably explains my 2:2.

After a few (!) years doing real jobs in the aircraft industry (probably on the same aeroplanes you were on) however, I decided to spend a chunk of my spare time doing a Doctorate. In many ways I found that I had a much better understanding and work ethic behind what I was doing than I had as an undergrad. So, although it took a lot longer, and certainly had its frustrations, I found a PhD in my 30s, much easier than a BEng in my early 20s.

G

[McAero]

I graduated in summer 2005 with a BEng in Avionics. It was a 4 year course at Glasgow University. I moved down to the south east just after my graduation and I've had a great time so far. I've been lucky enough to have worked in Paris on several occasions and I've had to work closely with the customer, solving interesting problems and working on a great product.

I got an 8 week work placement down in Birmingham during the summer after my 2nd year at university which was hugely beneficial, so I would highly recommend going out and getting some extra experience in your spare time.

The degree was hard work ( I got a 2:2), but my enthusiasm for aircraft and the previous work experience helped convince the company I would fit in with their culture.

I hope you follow this career path, because there's still a lack of people with the skills that such a degree brings.

Good luck! :ok:

[rigger468]

Hi ya Flame,

Thanks for the reply! Dont worry I wasn't taking it as a criticism of Kingston and I have my own opinions about their support etc that probably don't reflect accurately on the faculty as a whole as I was only a temporary/part timer and the rest of the year may have been better.

Your repeated references to a "young" man suggest you think I'm old? :{ there goes my ego spiralling down to earth with a crash...LOL!

At least he ended up in a proper engineering discipline and not some IT/computing dreamworld! Combine that with the "education" that a few years in Scotland will give him and he should be well on the way to becoming a useful member of society!

How did i ever become so cynical? Think I need a few hours in a comfy armchair with my pipe and slippers...

Cheers m'dear, JJ

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi Genghis
Thank you for your advice. However, I also know someone else (sorry Rigger, she's a 'young' woman ) who sailed through first year Aero Eng at Hertfordshire Uni...(that place near Hatfield ?), and dropped out after the first term of her 2nd year saying that fluid mechanics became 'impossible'...This (apologies again to Rigger) young lady is now at Aberdeen Uni doing a Physics degree.

I would welcome hearing all your views.

All the best.


Yep, I felt like that about fluid mechanics on occasion as well (my troubles started - about the point our lecturer started bringing calculus of imaginary numbers to allow algebraic modelling of a 2-D flowfield with a single equation.)

The fact is, aero-eng is a very difficult subject to learn, and all of us really struggle with parts of it - for me it was mostly the more complex bits of force-based structural analysis (although I'd have got to that point pretty quickly in fluid mechanics if I'd done the 3rd year optional courses in it I suspect). Similarly we all have our strong subjects, and most courses, once we've hacked our way through the basics, allow us to specialise - in my case that was on design and flight mechanics based issues.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi Rigger

Forgive me if I'm wrong in thinking that Aberdeen Uni has a better reputation than Kingston Uni?

All the best.

In most subjects that would be true, but in Aero-Eng Kingston has a very good reputation indeed.

G

[Kerosine]

Sorry I haven't replied for a while, I forget I'd even started this thread!

Anyhow, seen it on new posts and was pleased to see some interesting feedback. Here's an update as far as I'm concerned..

Applied for Aerospace Eng at the following (with a S*&T-hot personal statement)

Liverpool
Manchester
Brunel
Bath
SheffieldSo far,

Liverpool - Interview 1st March :ok:
Manchester - Accepted:ok:
Brunel - Accepted :ok:
Bath - Rejected :mad:
Sheffield - Accepted
Thats based on 3 B's without maths, so for Manc and Brunel they want me to do a foundation year, but does a year make that much difference when looking back? I think it's worth it.

My first choice is Liverpool, so anyone fmailiar with their course? It includes the pilot studies, with the PPL in year 1, then CPL/ATPL theory in year 2/3.

I'm grinning from ear to ear atm, as I received my accpetance from Manchester today. I was also thinking how I could prolong my uni experience.. 1 year foundation, 3 years work, 1 year in industry, 1 year for masters.. thats 6 years of unemployment. woop!

Anyhow, looking at getting airborne (hopefully in a plane!) soon, as I don't go until sept 2008.

Thanks all!

Dave :cool:

(Don't argue!)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think you can assume that if Liverpool offer you a place, it'll also be conditional upon a Foundation year (or going and finding yourself a Maths A level); I don't think that Bath offer an FoE programme, so that's probably why the rejection.

I have a close colleague who until 2 years ago was teaching on that course at Liverpool. So far as I can tell, he only left because they wouldn't promote him, and still speaks very highly of the course - certainly professor Padfield, who runs that department, is extremely well regarded across the UK aerospace industry.

G

[Kerosine]

Whats the main difference between aeronautical eng and aerospace eng?

Cheers! :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Whats the main difference between aeronautical eng and aerospace eng?

Cheers!

Not a lot - just what the individual university chooses to call it's course - ditto aviation engineering, aeronautics and astronautics....

Look at the detail of the course content and structure, don't worry about the name.

G

[Kerosine]

I thought so, they look the same from an overview perspective, wondered if I was missing anything.

Any ideas of what 'awkward' questions they might ask during the interview, if any?


Thanks for the feedback Genghis

[McAero]

I never had an interview for my course, but I'd imagine they'll want to know what level your maths and physics is at. Generally, if that's good, you'll be grand.

[rayne]

i personally wont go for a foundation if that's what the uni is offering you.most students lost interest while doing a foundation.. if you do not thing u can get at least B's in physics and maths then liverpool and manchester will only offer u a foundation or a different course like mechanical Eng. dont even think about sheffield without the grades. why didnt apply for salford? it's an acreditted engineering school.

[Kerosine]

why didnt apply for salford? it's an acreditted engineering school.

Not keen on the Uni tbh. don't know why, but it may be because almost everyone from my college applied there, i want to get away from everything really (although I applied to manchester uni lol). I realise it's gonna take some effort to stick at the foundation year also, but I think I can do it.

Liverpool in my number one. I'm pretty sure sheffield is out, but manchester and Brunel are looking good (they're unconditional offers on a foundation year).

Flame, I've got AS level maths, so I'm not new to integration/differentiation/calculus anyway, but the advice on getting study books (for dummies? what you trying to say?:}) is noted.

Just how hard is the maths in this thing, say for example using A level maths as the yardstick? Were you sometimes sat in the lecture hall thinking "Oh sweet jesus, am i in the right lecture?"?


Dave

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not all universities will interview, and some will interview only for some courses. In general however, they want to know...

- If you are so disfunctional you'll be a pain to teach.
- Whether you have a genuine interest in the subject
- Whether you will contribute something to university life
- Whether you can think for yourself when not working to an A-level syllabus.

Pretty much anything else they want to know, they can get from the UCAS form.

Re: Salford - reasonable university, good aero side, run by some very capable and enthusiastic people. But, you can only apply to so many universities and personally, the idea of living in and around Salford wouldn't appeal greatly!

Re: Foundation year - if you can go straight into year 1 with the right A-levels, that must always be the best option.

Re: Maths, yes it'll be hard, but if you can get a B at A-level and don't mind hard work and (quite!) a few late nights of self-study, you'll cope.

G

['India-Mike]

My university doesn't interview, unfortunately. A number of the staff would love to. If we did, the following are typical questions we'd ask:

(i) we'd give you an equation to differentiate;

(ii) we'd ask you how a satellite stays in orbit;

(iii) we'd ask you what your favourite aircraft is, and why.

Most university academics can't tell one end of an aeroplane from another, though (both ends are pointy, you see). They'd be better off with boats, where at least one end is blunt.

Being keen on aircraft therefore, you're on a winner before you start......

[rigger468]

India Mike,

Both ends of the aeroplane are pointy then are they? love to know which aircraft you have been working on recently...lol! maybe a better description is "one end is hot!".

Obviously in this day and age "hot" suggests a bit dangerous, suggesting suitable "adult" supervision required. So the sooties amongst you would take that as an endorsement of their abilities. Personally as a rigger I would suggest the heat is just there as a clue to tell them which end is theirs.

Cheers m'dear, JJ

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be fair to I-M, it's usually the wrong end that's pointiest when seen from a lot of angles!

G

[McAero]

I have to agree that my knowledge of aircraft was very poor during my uni days. There should definitely be an introduction to aircraft systems or something similar instead of just assuming prior knowledge. I think it would give students a greater general understanding and appreciation of an aircraft.

[rigger468]

McAero,

Surely you don't mean control rods, wires and turnbuckles? maybe even the ability to wirelock an elbow union while standing on your head...ah happy days! what a radical idea!!

I agree that some basic understanding of relatively simple systems would be a good idea for many especially those who dont have any practical experience. Once you learn the basics, systems actually seem to get easier in this day and age and it is my experience that there is a distinct shortage of basic hand skills among new techies. The value from such an approach would be dependant on the ability of the instructors to distil the information into nice plain terms. Maybe the much discussed foundation year should be a practical placement with a nuts/bolts, wire and plugs company to develop some practical understanding of the difficulties faced by the techies. Hmmm could be interesting!

JJ

[whiskeyflyer]

Forget any engineering if you have not done or do not feel confortable with maths. If you need a foundation coarse, forget it and go do business studies, accounting etc
If the uni does what they called a thick sandwich (year out in industry) grab the opportunity. The money will be peanuts but the experience is invaluable and you will graduate with a more mature knowledge of the industry.

Other quotes have been
"But (there's always a but) don't for a moment think that the degree itself makes you all that employable, or that getting your first job (with NATS, BAE(S) or any of the miriad of other players). It is an essential for many aero-eng jobs (certainly most of the jobs that I've done), but it is your experience and abilities that'll really make you employable."
I could not agree more. I have interviewed some guys with degrees I would not trust with my bike. Interpersonnal skills are required and ability to work hard and learn quickly (and please do not graduate thinking you know everthing, otherwise some old timer will give you a well deserved "spanner in the head" award) If anybody claims to know everything in aviation, start running.

"I know someone who spent a term at Kingston Uni doing the Foundation Aero Eng Course and hated it there and dropped out. He also hated the fact that after one term you have to upsticks and go to live in Norwich for a term and then back to Kingston etc. However, this was just his personal experience and thus subjective"
In aviation get used to travel or drop out as the industry is not for you. 15 years in the industry, lived and worked on two continents and four countries. Visited over 50 and had the joy of meeting persons of so many different types, cultures, foods, religions etc that not many other industries would expose me to.But a lot of people in this industry suffer from AIDS (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome) due to the hours/travel etc

You better love aviation of you wish to grow in the business

oh and I did my degree in Kingston............:ok:

[Kerosine]

Advice is much apreciated there whiskeyflyer. It's nice to know there are people giving sound advice baed on experience rather than speculation.
I have done AS-level maths (half way to an A-level), and am currently self teching the A2, with a bit of help from past tutors.
The foundation course is probably what I will be offered, but this is surely not a reason to do accounting? I understand there was an element of sarcasm, but I am determined, and A-level maths is well within my capabilities.

Out of curiosity, what is it you do whisky?

Cheers folks!

[whiskeyflyer]

What do i do.
Lie in bed with flu and browse the web :bored: (ok that's just today)

I am technical manager for a regional jet wet leasing company which operates worldwide (sorry can say no more or ID will be blown but I do not work on 146s :) )

My age reflected on my ID for pprune is not acurate.

As a note to any other advise givers on this forum, take on a student part time. Doesn't have to cost a lot. All we did was ring the local uni head of department and ask does he/she have anybody who wants a part time job. Handy for little projects (even if just "cleaning up" after our project) and gives students a good insight into a major part of this job, PAPERWORK, and much more satisfing than paying a grumpy temp.
We on temp number three now (glad to say one of our temp's with his experience from us, resulted in him getting a well paid full time job. Regreatfully we had no full time vacancy at the time). Well temp 4, one student lasted 2 days, I honestly don't know how he tied his own shoe laces, let alone get into uni.

[rigger468]

Flame,

Youve softened! I knew you'd come round to my way of thinking...eventually! lol

JJ

[whiskeyflyer]

ok so they didn't teach me that laptop in bed not work well, so thats my excuse for useless spelling, it roasts your neither regions oh :mad: , which all women know is where men's brains are (I blame all those adverts where they show people working from bed, its not true....... I also believe those adverts where you can loose weight by wearing a silly vibrating pad). Also I did engineering not english lit:)
anyway two more hot whiskeys, good night sleep and back to earning some money
- oh ya, you should also train your liver in university for working life:ok: for when you get to drink out of real glass and not plastic using somebody else's money (called an expense account). OK I failed business ethics.....................:E

[rigger468]

Flame,

Be my valentine?:}

JJ

[rigger468]

Flame,

Champagne and strawberries okay with you?

JJ

[rigger468]

Flame,

Thats an easy one to answer. I have only ever worked on fighter aircraft so there is one pointy end and a blunt end, and the blunt end is invariably extremely hot, and noisy.

Also the pointy end generally has lots of other pointy things pointing in the same direction. Finding the right end is so much easier!

Think we should wait til the weather is a little warmer for the picnic but the offer still stands...lol!

JJ

[Kerosine]

Got my unconditional offer from Liverpool today... I'm in for this september! :ok::ok:

Thanks for your advice guys, it's always appreciated.

If anyone's gonna be there next Sept let me know if you want to meet for a beer etc.

Dave

[I have asked myself why I'm doing this course, considering the holy grail of Aerospace Engineering (pointy vs blunt) has been revealed... Is there anything left to learn!?]

[dream747]

Is it actually possible to do the degree full time and undertake CPL training part time? Would it be too taxing?

[Kerosine]

Had some bad news. The foundation course is spending a year at Carmel catholic college for a year. I can't do that, not gonna happen lol.

The other option they gave me was to do A-level, then they'd let me in on the Beng.

I already have AS maths, so I could just tag on A-level.. Looks like this is my only option. The foundation course looks absolutely crap, considering I've done Chemistry and Physics to a reasonably high level. I can't go back to school :ugh:.

I want university, so looks like another year before I can get there.

I hate everything and everyone lol.

ARGH!

(dream747, I've heard it's hard but possibe, the ATPL exams are undertaken in year 3!

Thanks Flame Lily FX.)

[dream747]

Kerosine, if one takes the ATPL in year 3 I suppose that's part of the total credits towards the course right? Would that mean that some engineering modules are to be left out?

[Genghis the Engineer]

[I have asked myself why I'm doing this course, considering the holy grail of Aerospace Engineering (pointy vs blunt) has been revealed... Is there anything left to learn!?]

I know that your comment is tongue in cheek, but the scarey thing is that the more you learn in this game, the more you realise you don't know.

I started off as an irritating, arrogant, but halfway knowledgeable 19 year old. At 21 I was pretty convinced that I understood how aeroplanes worked and flew. Around 30 I finally admitted I hadn't a clue - now I'm a seasoned professional, with more letters after my name than my age (okay, I'm still irritating and arrogant) - and quite clear that I really know nothing about anything.

Apparently this qualifies me to teach students up to Doctoral level, and to practice as an aeronautical engineer and (on a good day) professional pilot.

G

[rigger468]

Flame,

Virtual raincheck, virtually accepted!

JJ

[john_tullamarine]

Genghis .... ain't it the truth .. and then, approaching senility .. one really wonders whether that bank clerk job might have been a better option after all ... ?