VB Embraer Operation

[tryhard]

Can anyone tell me more about the VB Embraer op. BAses, start dates, how many aircraft, pay etc... Any info would be good.

Thx.


TH.:)

[sinala1]

Not much info to give as yet! 11 firm orders with 3 options on top (I think those numbers are right? Can't recall exactly, open to correction...) bases/salary/start dates etc not yet confirmed

[dirty deeds]

Just some small amount of info,
Vb pilots voted down the proposed EBA due to a number of reasons. Now that this has been voted down, there a real chance that the whole EMB operation will be greenfielded. Below are some of the rejected conditions to do with the EMB,
1. Capt base pay $112K.
2. F/O base pay $60k, and you pay for the endorsement which in the document was $20K US, and the exchange rate was not stipulated. Also, you can forget a quick command, as there has been a revision to operations manual stating that a command upgrade requires a minimum of 4000 hours of which 2000 hours must be on company type, you are also frozen for 4 years on type.
3. Overtime after 68.5 hours. At Vb you won't see any overtime, they will time balance for sure. Overtime rate for EMB Capt. is approx. $140 an hour, an F/O receives 2/3rds of this rate.
4. 5 sector days with a provision to pax on the 6th sector. No meals during a pax sector, no payments for a pax sector.
5. No payments for EP's/ground courses.
6. Split duties, sign on a 7pm, one sector to Hobart. Sign off at 10pm. Overnight in Hobart. Sign on at 5am and one sector home to Melbourne sign off at 8.30am. This is just an example.
7. 14 days off a month on an average across the entire pilot complement. Guarantee of 10 days off a month. Therefore, you will only receive 10 days off a month.
8. One month reserve roster blocks.
9. Can roster you for seven days flying, one day off, then seven days flying.
These are just some of the conditions.
You can forget direct entry commands as well. Company wants high time F/Os to take EMB commands. There is a provision for direct entry commands, but they are targeting Hong Kong Express EMB experienced pilots of other Jet experienced pilots. (At these salary rates "tell em their dreaming").
Don't mean to sound negative. Just the Facts.

[Grivation]

I think everyone should leave these jobs well and truely alone to let the VB pilots get their EBA sorted out.

[Dubya]

Dirty Deeds sums up the EBA beautifully.

Grivation sums up the seniment. Until the EBA is sorted out, you'd have to be a very brave pilot to come and 'scheme' an early command. There are many well qualified FO's waiting patiently for a command, but will happily sit as FO til this rubbish is sorted out. Any brown-noses that take those slots, would probably not enjoy having drinks at the end of a busy day. Understand.:eek:

[Dehavillanddriver]

Dirty Deeds - you said that there was a good change of it being a greenfields setup and then said forget direct entry commands - doesn't a greenfields setup mean direct entry commands?

Dubya - surely you dont believe that the company will delay the aircraft because of pilot industrial issues? Your tone sounds very "standover ish".

[KRUSTY 34]

This could be a very sticky situation for DJ management.

Due to past promises not being honoured, we now appear to have a pretty well united DJ pilot body.

It seems that the ball is well and truely in managements court. What management chooses to do with that ball may decide the manner in which the Embraer is introduced, at least in the short term. If they decide to bite the bullet and offer the boys and girls on the line what they are worth, Then the shiney new jungle jets may be flying sooner than later. If not, well what do the DJ pilot group really have to lose in continuing to vote the EBA down.

Irrespective of what eventually happens, I would suggest any new off the street FO to take a long hard look at their prospects down the track.

What will be the chances of command. If you consider that literally hundreds of exiting DJ FO's are many years from a 737 command, then your chances of moving to the left seat within 10 years are probably slim. a move to command on the jungle jet by these pilots would be I suggest a definite no brainer considering the situation they currently find themselves in.

Will there be progression onto the 737? If so will you have to be in possesion of a type rating? As every DJ driver before you has had to satisfy that requirement, I would say probably yes! Becoming a very expensive exercise.

Food for thought: Time to command at REX at the moment is around 2-3 years. A Saab 340 captain will gross approx 90K with allowances with no upfront endorsement costs. True, it's not a jet, but the lifestyle is pretty reasonable, and you will probably be better off financially for at least the first 15 years!

If flying a jet is everything, then I say go for it. Don't be supprised however if you are still sitting in the right seat 10 years from now earning 20-30K less than your regional counterpart!

[dirty deeds]

Dehavillanddriver,
Sorry for confusing the situation, my post was slanted towards this EBA getting through in its current form or close to it. My info was designed to inform tryhard and anyone else interested in the EMB, that is all. You are absolutely right about commands if the operation is greenfielded, all bets will be off and VB will grab anyone with time that is willing to work under these conditions. If pilots out there think that this document or conditions close to what I stipulated in my original post is close to their worth, then go for it. That what a democracy is all about, freedom of choice. VB pilots work close to 90 hours each month, what management have planned is pilots doing 870 hours a year, so you do the maths. If $60k a year is worth this to you, once again go for it, but I also will state that this greenfield operation will most likely conducted under an AWA.
As for Dubya, you can read into his post anyway you like, but 87% of VB pilots did not vote this EBA down for just personal reasons, they voted this EBA down for the future of this industry and the next guy who wants a career at VB.
As for ten years to a command, VB management just announced another 7 commands a month for thr next 12 months. That means at the current rate, it's 4.5 years top to a command. People are leaving and planned to retire at a steady rate in the comming years. Many an 89er in his mid-late 50's.
Just the facts.

[KRUSTY 34]

As for ten years to a command, VB management just announced another 7 commands a month for thr next 12 months. That means at the current rate, it's 4.5 years top to a command. People are leaving and planned to retire at a steady rate in the comming years. Many an 89er in his mid-late 50's.
Just the facts.

Gidday Dirty Deeds,

I was actually suggesting that it would probably be at least 10 years to a command on the E-Jet for those New guys who came in off the street. This would be because of future command slots on the Embraer being filled by existing DJ FO's.

It's great to see movement in the 737 fleet, but there will still be plenty of less senior 737 FO's willing to take the E-Jet command slots for some years to come.

As I said before; something for the new guys to think about.

[dirty deeds]

KRUSTY 34

Sorry mate, I was too quick to read your post, fingers faster than my brain! You are probably right, although times have changed, alot of people have used VB as a vehicle to move onto bigger and better things (depends on your definition of bigger and better).

[Mr Wright]

Dirty deeds, it would seem that you want to bake your cake and eat it too. If you post some info on this site, post the positive stuff as well. in response to your items:
1. Capt base pay $112K PLUS 15K retention bonus yearly.
2. FO EMB baes nearly 62K Plus nearly 10K retention bonus yearly. I aggree with your comments regarding bond and endo costs.
3.Company average pilots fly 74 hours monthly. Emb Capt gets nearly 150 in overtime per hour. Roughly in my calculations that's another $876 a month over base pay with allowances on top of that. Maybe just another $1000 per month. Mind you a month now is a 28 day period. Some people might say that doesn't sound too bad.
4. Agree on this one
5. What other flying organisation gets paid extra for ground courses??????
6. I think that 2 one sector days is pretty cruisy, even with short layover. If you sign on at 5am in HBA, then you'll be signed off in MEL by 0725 won't you???? Nice rest of the day to yourself/ family if you have some.
7. As you stated the average accros the pilot compliment averages 14 days off EVERY 28 DAYS, some will have 10 days off every 28 days and some will have up to 18 days off every 28 days, it just depends on how you roster bid! Doesn't sound bad to me when they cannot give me any reserve days !!!!
8. One month reserve blocks (28 days), big deal, you may get it once every 2 years if you were unlucky, and if you did, 13 days off leaves 15 days on reserve. Hardly worse than than the current system of 12 days reserve in a row with 2 days off in between?
9. This is a roster bidding preference that you would select. Simply put if you want a single day off you have to have selected that option at bidding stage! 7 days on, one day off, then work another seven and hey presto there you have the rest of your 28 days of the roster off. Doesn't that mean the next 12 off???????
Before the slinging I am about to receive, yes I was the one in nine pilots at VB who voted YES to the new aggreement. I was of the opinion in my personal circumstances, yes my personal circumstances, that it could work for ME. The railroading by some of the VB crew has been pathetic in my eyes. By the way I am not a checking pilot, I am a regular line driver. Some peolple seem worried about their monthly allowances dropping due to less overnights, to those people, I hope that if these new work rules come through, you bid so that you are at work the most to receive the maximum in allowances, and leave me the maximum time at home.
Once again as I see it, and correct me if i'm wrong!

[plainmaker]

Just a throw away thing from this morning's NZ Herald and some quotes from the Bearded one.

He alludes to PB flying domestic in NZ 'on selected routes' and in the same sentence mentions smaller regional aircraft.

Given that there may be some journalistic licence in all of this, perhaps the 170 / 190 fleet may be carrying PB livery and crew. Cheaper NZ wages and able to operate domestically in OZ as well.

Apart from RB's 'stunt' in wet tee shirting :ok: a PB staff member in the mighty Avon creek in Christchurch, I could not but ponder that perhaps Virgin have a different agenda for the jungle jets given Branson's appearance in NZ.

Plainmaker

[dirty deeds]

Dear Mr Wright,
Don't know where railroading came from. This was a democratic vote. Maybe you need to read the results again:
Total number of votes cast: 557
Total number of votes polled: 551
Votes for: 73
Votes Against: 478
This vote was not just against the EBA my friend, but about the lack of respect we receive, the lack of trust we have on our management, and the total lies we have been told to for too many years. This document needs to be tightented up.
For example. Time balancing will occure because a pilot can be DISPLACED FOR ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE REASON. I can see it now, a nice four day trip coming up with overtime, "sorry BOB, we are displacing you for an administrative reason". The guy on reserve then gets a call "sorry John, we have a four day trip for you". This is mad, and this will happen, trust me, its happened before in a former life and it will happen here.
AD said from the start that this document was not up for negotiation. now we are at round three, with a better document than first, a document that will be further negotiated and tightened up. Wake up MR Wright, do you accept your first offer when you sell your home, buy a car, etc etc. This is just a business transaction, nothing more nothing less.
Yes I do want my cake and I want to eat it, and I want to also share it with my fellow aviators, and not just think of myself. We have been lied to for too long and will continue to be lied to if we don't stand up and start respecting ourselves by saying enough is enough. You may believe what your worth is, but mine is alot more than this current document.
Democracy has spoken. 87% NO NO NO NO.

[Mr Wright]

Wake up Mr Deeds, it would appear that you generally like the Eba but dislike the management. This was a vote on an Eba not on whether you like the current management or think they lied to you. Wake up, it's not a bad job. If you think otherwise maybe look elsewhere. Thanks my friend.:8

[Break Right]

Mr Wright why not come on over to the VB site and explain to your work colleagues why you think the document was so good!!! Only one person was brave enough to post such a comment on the VB site and was far from The railroading by some of the VB crew
Lets keep this argument constructive and keep everyone on the same side.:ok:

[SKYCAMEL]

I agree with Mr Wright,
As per the VB web site you guys are speaking ****e here as well. Stop making out that the EBA was that bad by not giving all the facts to people, but yes, that has been your tactics all along. I think your attitudes will come back to bite you where it hurts, because at the end of the day if you want to fight the company, you have to be prepared to take action. And you guys will be the first to gave in, as in a previous fight. Also this crap of sticking together, some of the pilot group are out to divide themselves, by running off to the TWU and getting a so called Professional negotiator in! About time you guys woke up and actually read and understood the document! That is not to say its perfect, but it is a lot better than you have now. Anyway I guess time will tell how it works out, and for all our sakes I hope the voted in document is better than what has been voted down, not worse!

[avery]

Hmmm, I think a big problem with the proposed virgin eba document was that is was very open to interpretation. Best case scenario would have been a big improvement on the status quo, but worst case scenario..... And not having trust in management is very important when voting on a document so full of holes - if the proposed eba was watertight on it's conditions maybe the no vote may not have been quite so high. Having said that, there is of course a lot of room for improvement.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Dear VB yes voters,
My car is for sale.
1985 Mitsubishi Sigma, some rust, faded paint, milky oil and a few rattles.

$20,000 firm, NO OFFERS

Please respond to

[email protected]


bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[OPT/MAX]

I wonder where the other 71 yes voters are? :hmm:

[Oldmate]

Dear VB yes voters,
My car is for sale.
1985 Mitsubishi Sigma, some rust, faded paint, milky oil and a few rattles.
$20,000 firm, NO OFFERS
Please respond to
[email protected]
bbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

Love it Buzzy! With the QF shorthaul eba open and VB eba, would be great to see some communicating between AIPA and AFAP to thrash out the best possible deal for almost all 737 drivers in the country. Not saying it must be the same deal for both groups, but if convergence it has to be then might as well converge towards the top scale...

[tryhard]

Any more news on this? Anyone? It seems to be going cold?

[tryhard]

Any more on the Embraer?



TH

[Stick Pusher]

tell me this 14 aircraft = 140 pilots....... from where? demand is out stripping supply.... good luck and all the best on that one!:ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Well said Stick Pusher.

A little bird in DJ informs me that the lights are burning late in the Kremlin on that very question.

Evidently the 737 F/O's slated for command on the EJ may leave a severe experience gap in the right seats of the 737 operation. This has been hilighted by the problems some new and less experienced guys have been having adjusting to the operation.

Then there is the problem with the EJ EBA? What EBA? With the voting down of the new proposed DJ agreement, the introduction of the Embraer may be in trouble on 2 fronts, Operationally and Industrially!

[tryhard]

OK, so all this aside. When does the first aircraft arrive? Is is still going to happen

[KRUSTY 34]

Not without Crews it's not!

[KRUSTY 34]

Sorry Tryhard,

All jokes aside. It has gone pretty quiet hasn't it?

Time will tell.

Anyone else with info?

[Heatseeker]

Olds

I like the sound of your car. Does it come with fluffy dice and a nodding dog ?

H

[Icarus2001]

tell me this 14 aircraft = 140 pilots....... from where?

What does the 737 operation have? About 550 pilots for 55 airframes?
Round numbers.. 10 pilots - 5 crews per airframe.

Would the E jet have the same crewing requirements? If so I am going to set up my deckchair and open a stubby because this is going to be bloody entertaining.

[tryhard]

Don't any of you guys want a job? There seems to be an incredible amount of negativity surrounding the intro of the E's. I've worked regional in the UK and long haul and I can tell you this job would be a bloody walk in the park compared to both of them. Roll on the E Jets I say. Small fuel tanks = more time on the ground= happy life:ok:

[DJ747]

If you are a 737 driver and want to return to OZ, now is your opportunity.

Word on the street is that 737 rated pilots are as scarse as the sim time available to train newbies.

Crikey if I was a lowish houred regional driver I would say the next 18 mths look bloody fantastic.

The there is the EBA issue, for another day.

[galdian]

DJ
Slightly confused so have to ask:
initially you are saying "great time for expat 737 drivers to return to OZ", however anyone overseas endorsed on 737 is probably looking at a future in remuneration (if nothing else) that DJ and others in OZ refuse to acknowlwdge.
Of course I am assuming you refer to F/O slots - or are you suggesting that DEC slots will be available?? jeez :E that'll make the bottom half of the "seniotity list" impressed!
Finally I am sure there will be enough who are willing to pay their endorsements - well and truely part of the Australian aviation environment these days, more so when McBank take over QF and acts, "in the interests of their shareholders", to recoup their investment quicktime :E ).

After my small s*itstir a serious note - there is a concerted effort around the world (however I refer in this instance more to Asia-Pacific) to continually lower requirements to try to ensure a suitable "pool" of canditates for positions from either the airlines/and or the contract agencies.
Will this ongoing lowering requirements ever hit bottom (ie maybe serious incidents or accidents which will bring this to public attention) or will "advances in aircraft technology", whatever they may be, offset this decline in qualifications/experience/standards??
Discuss!!

[KRUSTY 34]

galdian, I'll have a go,

It's becoming obvious that operators will have to lower their requirements to fill their need for new blood. There's ample evidence of this occuring already. The problem as I see it is not so much the reduced experience level of the candidate, but the way in which an increasing number of operators induct them.

Not that long ago, 15 to 20 years I suppose, 1,000 hours GA multi-command and you were off to the airlines. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Qantas mins are still around the 500 mark. Prior to this a large part of QF recruitment was by way of the cadet scheme. Why then did the majority of these candidates go on to successful careers?

Why? Because from day one you were a part of the organisation. You were endorsed in house and supervised, encouraged, and supported every step of the way. At the end of your training you had been exposed to the priceless wealth of experience of a large professional airline and it's training department.

So what happens today? You are required to be in possesion of the appropriate type rating prior to being accepted for employment. So for the candidate without previous type experience, their initial training on type is not as a probationary employee, but as a client to whatever company is providing the endorsement.

For an experienced 5-10K hour pilot, this may or may not present a serious problem, but for a greenhorn you would have to ask, are they being properly equipped to meet the challenges of their line training and future line flying situations?

As for technology off-setting low experience levels, people have been manageing to screw up in even the most advanced machines for some years now, and usually by quite experienced pilots. In the aftermath of these events, quite often the focus is on systemic failures and the "culture" of the company invloved!

Mabye our brave new world LCC's need to re-invent the wheel and take greater responsibility for their future investment.

I won't however, be holding my breath.

[Artificial Horizon]

There is a flood of pilots over here in the UK that would love to return back to AUS but some are prevented from applying due to the minimum requirements. Take me for example.

4000 tt
1000 turboprop FO
1500 Airbus/737 FO
1500 Instrutor Time


I can't apply because of the requirement for 500 pic multiengine time, without going into the rights or wrongs of this I know that a lot of blokes over here in the UK are in a similar situation as myself because time to command at my current company is 10-15 years so will be unlikely to ever meet the minimum entry requirement. Tough luck really, just would'nt worry to much about the flood of expats.

[galdian]

Krusty
Thanks for taking the time - your thinking is exactly the same as mine regarding the wealth of overall training provided by the "legacy" carriers Vs the "just tick the box" attitude by the management (not necessarily the Flight Department) of the likes of VB and Pornstar.
VB lucked by grabbing a whole group of "legacy" trained F/O's who rapidly (and successfully) did upgrades, Pornstar is heavily dominated by a Flight Ops from the same "legacy" background (for better or worse, not getting in to THAT slinging match:} .)
It will be interesting to see how things progress in the future as the benefits of "legacy" carriers is diminished through natural attrition and the "just tick the box" attitude of modern day LCC management becomes dominant.
Personally I cannot see it in anyway being a step forward in safety and standards - however have been known to be wrong once or twice in the past, maybe wrong now! (but I don't think so.)

[DJ747]

Galdian there is more to life than money. Everytime I/we/they/whoever attempts to bring something positive to this site there are all you guys ready to shoot us down and be negative.

I agree aviation has become a s*@t of an industry, the dollars just are not there anymore but hell that is what we are qualified to do.

There are buckets of jet jobs available in OZ, and will be for the next few years. The T & C's may not be ideal but that is everyones choice. Get what I mean ?

[KRUSTY 34]

DJ

Jobs don't appear to be the problem.

Just who will fill them is!