Unity

[Keg]

This is the industrial circumstances as I see them at the moment.
DJ have just voted down their EBA. Back to the negotiating table.

QF Shorthaul have not even bothered to put their offer to a vote given that a pre-vote poll suggested it was going down in a big way. Back to the negotiating table.

Australian Wet lease have also done the same thing as QF short haul. Back to the the negotiating table for them as well.

QF long haul are now in an enterprise bargaining period. Sentiment is delicately poised but if the offers to QF s/h and AOWL are anything to go by then this one won't get any further.

NOW is the time for crew to be singing from the same philosophical song sheet. The question is how. Given that most things like this happen best from the 'grass roots' movements it was suggested on Qrewroom by a few line pilots that opening Qrewroom to DJ crew would be a good way of fostering that unity and gaining some transparency into the issues that are faced by the respective pilot groups. We already have some great contributions from those from Eastern, Sunnies, etc. The Qrewroom administrator stated this:

I would invite the Virgin pilots to join Qrewroom, just like the Eastern, Sunstate, Jetstar and Jetconnect guys, if I had some means of verifying their identity.

There is still a bit of water to flow under the bridge on this one to enable it to happen but it's a positive start of the sort of grass roots connections that Aussie crew should have.

Therefore I'd be interested to hear from DJ crew who are interested in whether this offer would be received favourably and possible ways that it could be progressed. My rep on PPRUNE is pretty well known and I'll treat any contact with the strictest confidentiality as per the directions of the respective person. I'm on a trip so if a DJ crew wanted to kick it over with me they'd have to skype me. Details via PM.

I'm not intending for this thread to re-hash what AIPA/AFAP/whoever have done in the past that wasn't good for the industry (AIPA leaving AFAP, '89, etc). We learn from those issues but blaming some 1.5-2.5 decades down the track doesn't serve much purpose. What I would like to see is the various pilots in this industry working together to reduce the spin of the various managements and reducing the times of being played off against each other due to lack of interaction.

It's time. :E :cool:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Keg, could you roll me one of those and pass it over,,,,,, got a light ?.

One thing that is for certain, something drastic must happen to make Pilots stand together, i can not for the life of me imagine what would do it.

[Next Generation]

I'm with you on this one Keg!

No audit required :ok:

[BankAngle50]

KEG some quotes from the DJ version of Qrewroom, which in were sparked from quotes posted from Qrewroom on thier site.

While many of us will be apt to say "who cares", when it comes to QF, I think you will find their positive support for us interesting.
One of their contributors reminds us of the unprecedence of voting down a union negotiated EBA. In another industry, this would probably spark an immediate vote of no confidence in the union negotiators and board (but I'll leave this one for you to think about?).
Read the transcript for what it's worth. Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession

What a great post, I would hope it is the begining of some sort or amalgamation of AIPA and AFAP.
I am of the opinion that the AFAP totally miss-read the pilot body here at VB, and thought that we would simply ratify their crumby agreement.
I hope that some serious progress can be made towards joining forces with AIPA, and quite frankly, if the AFAP dont get something organised, I believe more and more pilots will seek representation elsewhere.

We are communicating with the administrators of both the QF and DJ websites and are hopeful of gaining some limited cross-access for those that are interested.
Getting some dialogue going between the pilot groups has to have some benefit. Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are there too so we begin to have a broad reach and its a bit more palatable than PPrune.

XXXX statesQuote:
Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession.
Well said mate! All of us now need to look forward and concentrate on what can be changed. In some form or fashion the 3 airlines need to unite and bring some dignity back to the profession. It would nice to see some pride and happier faces rather than all the doom and gloom of recent. Easier said than done I'm sure; however the status quo will only lead us to an abyss of declining conditions.
Personally I think union negotiation is “old Australia!” We need to adapt to the times and better arm ourselves with the new tools of negotiation. AFAP seems unwilling to provide its members with such resources to date. I guess we could do nothing and hope the same old negations, using the AFAP, get us something better in a year. Perhaps a more proactive way forward would be to support the endeavor at ........

[Mr.Buzzy]

Yep.
I'd even leave my bad manners at the door.

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Pete Conrad]

I'm all for it.........it's going to be hard however, what we are dealing with is The chiefs's little plan to keep all the QF entities separate though. Do you really think the J* Chief is going to want his J* pilots being "infected" by QF pilots?

I take my hat off to the VB guys, if there was some way a strong united front could be presented then go for it....to date however, airline bosses have relied on threats and intimidation of base closures, loss of commands, and snatch and grab for work mentalities as was seen in the case of J*..........a classic case of we'll take the work, and bugger the rest of the pilot group.....beat that mentality out of the pilot groups and we may have a chance.
Again, well done VB guys....be nice to unite one day.

[sprucegoose]

Well its almost a certainty that our VB forum was the vehicle for establishing a broad debate on the EBA issue and ultimately resulted in a high majority NO vote. I can only say that a combined forum of parties with like interests will go a long way to erasing the 'them and us' fractions that exist between DJ, QF and Jetstar. For twenty years the airline pilots' "industry standard" conditions worldwide have been dictated by management types in a take it or leave it attitude. Its been a buyers market. One has to feel that the industry standard is about to be set by us again and rightly so. A combined forum will go a long way in establishing that unity and give us the means for meaningful discourse between pilot groups. In fact it will be the first and a necessary step towards common representation.

[peuce]

It's none of my business, as I'm not a member of either camp, but it would be great to see all you pilots working as one. It get's pretty depressing reading all the vitriole and spite on PPrune.

I do have experience in my particular aviation area where the management have thrived on the seperate staff groups beating themselves into submission ... it saves management a lot of time and energy.

We all KNOW that one united staff group has a greater chance of bringing about win-win change ... but we just can't get it together. There's just too much human nature involved.

Maybe you guys and gals can achieve the almost impossible. If you don't, well ... you'll be back where the rest of us are ... awaiting the next EBA with extreme trepidation.

[aircraft]

It's time.
Time to recreate 1989?

You guys need to be aware that a repeat of 1989 is the most likely outcome of any industrial action. This is especially true whilst Howard is in government. I expect it would also be true under Rudd's "new labour". The time will come when unionism is again strong - not just in aviation - but I think that time is still at least 10 years away.

Keg, you outlined the extent of the opposition to the various offers being put to the various pilot groups.

I assume the pilots are knocking the offers back because the offers fall short of the pilot's expectations.

Question: In assessing the offers, are the pilots taking into account what the airlines (and industry) can afford or are the expectations based purely on what the pilot's would like?

This is a genuine question - please don't regard it as a wind up.

[slim]

Contrails03 & other VB drivers - I believe that the law allows the Virgin pilots via their pilot council to enter into a service agreement with any union they please. This of course includes AIPA and the TWU and allows you to rid yourself of the AFAP. Something you should get your pilot council to investigate.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Great idea Mr. keg, there will be a few things required to bring it all together and I think it would be a wonderful thing to get the groups to work for a common cause.

Leadership? Where is it? Can the people with the type of smarts and balls needed for this sort of gig keep their heads down long enough not to get hammered by the various management goups.

A plan? This is a negotiation and there has to be a nice plan that has the redundancies that will be required if/when things turn weird. The plan needs to be solidly in the middle ground, not too militant or conservative with common goals that are workable and realistic.

Most importantly learn from history, keep it tight, address the divide before it occurs and be ready for whatever comes your way. You are in a powerful position make sure you stay that way by ensuring the people who need to be on side are, if you know what I mean.

Sorry if this comes across as industrial relations 101 but I'd like to see you people get this sorted.

[Keg]

LHRT, Jet lag will do strange things to a bloke. My original post was one of them.
I'm with you on this one Keg!
No audit required :ok:
ROFLMAO. Great response NG! :}

Thanks to the rest for the responses.

Aircraft I'd respond with a long well thought out post but EVERY previous post you've made has been inane wind up crap. I'll make a few basic points and we'll see how this develops. Your questions do show a significant level of naiveté anyway.

1. '89 was a long time ago.
2. No one is talking strike action here (I reckon that Geoff Dixon would LOVE QF crew to take industrial action in the short term).
3. No one is talking about resigning- except those crew who are leaving to go elsewhere which is apparently seen by some in management as the sign of a 'healthy' company. :rolleyes: :ugh:
4. GD's bonus last year was more than a 3% payrise to the 600 plus shorthaul crew who were offered a zero per cent pay rise over the next four years. His equity stake if the buy out occurs would pay for those payrises for a couple of decades to come.

You tell me if the pilots expectations are unreasonable in that respect.

[Angle of Attack]

And Aircraft if a basic CPI payrise is in excess of what the companies can afford then so be it let them go under. I'll be out of a job but hey its not that hard to get another. We are not paid to worry about their financial issues, thats what damn managers are for, and if you think otherwise then I need a bigger pay rise to take it on haha!!

[Next Generation]

Question: In assessing the offers, are the pilots taking into account what the airlines (and industry) can afford or are the expectations based purely on what the pilot's would like?

Virgin keeps increasing it's profit forecast up from $100,000,000 to $140,000,000 to $170,000,000 so I think we can safely say that they CAN afford the conditions we desire.

Thank you for your serious question.

[Vorsicht]

Keg

I reckon you are on the right track here, but a word of caution. Don't mention GD's bonus in relation to what you guys deserve ever again. The two have nothing in common. By critisizing GD's pay you are being critical of the shareholders whom GD works for and who vote for his bonus. The boyout fee is a separate issue. The point is, your worth has no relevance to his paypacket. Don't even get into the argument. He is paid to deliver results to shareholders. That means the less you get, the more he gets. He is doing his job, and doing it well, from a shareholder point of view. What you now need to do is convince the shareholders that you are worth what you believe you are.

V

[speeeedy]

To Virgin Pilots,
Congratulations and best of luck.
To Keg,
Well done. Based on the bars I go to I think that your comments of the last few months have reflected the mood of the QF mainline pilots precisely, none more so than on this issue – Unity.
To Vorsicht,
Although I agree that GD’s pay is not the main argument, it is, however, a valid point of comparison when the company (via the CFO) has been in the press essentially saying pilots are overpaid. There is one group in QF that are overpaid and it ain’t the Pilots – have you seen the comparison of QF management wages to those of other airlines…….. an eye opener!
They (the CEO and CFO) have the gall to imply pilots are greedy for wanting a less than CPI payrise when they both got a one off bonus just for signing a new contract that would pay for these pay rises and then some - $10 Million dollars between two guys! (BTW – this one off bonus was unilaterally approved by the board and therefore not signed off by shareholders).
The public are getting sick and tired of corporate greed and the taking of massive bonuses whilst employees get zip!

[Vorsicht]

you may be right re the shareholders getting sick of corporate greed, but it still has nothing to do with your pay. Your case will stand on its own merits. If the shareholders get sick of GD they will vote him out, but rest assured, regardless of the salary a new CEO will be on, he will also be trying to keep your salaries down. Management pay is largely irrelevant, other than to prove that they dont really think the company is in financial difficulty. Play the ball not the man.

V

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Management pay is largely irrelevant, other than to prove that they dont really think the company is in financial difficulty.

Very true, and something to remember during EBA negotiations. ;)

Perhaps though, we are entering a generational change where personal differences including the hurt of 89 might be put behind us and pilots of all persuasions might unite again to protect our grand old profession.

Hoo bloody ray! :D I understand how much ill-feeling and caution still lingers following the events of '89:suspect: but considering that there are now many of us in the industry who were in primary school (if even that) at the time and the way our profession appears to be heading I cannot support this move strongly enough.

I truly believe that as a result of a growing number of reasons, many discussed here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259796), Australian operators (the spectrum, from GA to turboprop RPT, to long haul RPT) will soon be faced with a serious lack of qualified applicants. This can only be good for all of us and (cue stirring background music) if we can manage to stand as a united group of professionals I do think we can turn our fortunes around.

The formation of a joint Australian professional pilots' forum (as opposed to a rumour network) is certainly a step in the right direction. The sooner we can all speak openly amongst ourselves, regardless of our backgrounds, the better we'll all fare.

Count me in! :ok:

[podbreak]

Keg, splendid, about time. :ok:

[GenAvman]

Good on the guys at VB for sticking together. As we all need to unite as professionals we have to try and support guys who are in need. The recent pay cuts in NJ were not a good indicator of things to come however remember the supply and demand the tide is turning. Make sure you encourage guys on the way up to stand up for there pay rates and conditions because if they can't survive they will get hungry and eat those above them. Most GA operators don't go broke because of paying pilots too much but many go broke. Remember that a good pilot with good decision making can save thousands in a simple diversion or change of flight levels so management can show appreciation for zero hull losses and happy passengers with a percentage of the profit. Time to remember we are all in it together what ever the logo on the tail.

[Captahab]

I find it interesting that the QF folks now want some unity.

18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment.

It's amazing what a good dose of reality can do for your perspective.

It seems that the real world is no longer an optical illusion only fit for the great unwashed.

This is great to watch.


Ahab :E

[noip]

"18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment."

Ahab,

False. The truth is in fact the opposite. There may have been some individuals with attitudes you ascribe, however you do a grave injustice to the vast majority.

But then, I'm just ruining a good story, aren't I?

N

[Skypatrol]

Captahab,

Noip is spot on. There were many heads shaking when the JQ girls/guys were told we didn't want them by AIPA (more to the point, the president of the time). These rumblings of unity had been made well before that happened. The decision was viewed by all as one management normally make - Unbelievably stupid and clearly did not reflect the wishes of the members!

On a side note - I've also had the very unfortunate pleasure of listening to that particular ex-pres carry on in the bar (some time ago) and as a junior pilot in the company, I was astounded as to how somebody who's a supposed "leader" of our group was so out of touch and full of himself.

Keg is right though, regardless of what has happened in the past (recent or ancient) the time for unity and progress is now!

[Keg]

18 months ago they did'nt want to know or associate with anyone outside of their own daddy's boy/old school tie environment.


Idiot. This is from February 2004....THREE years ago.

I reckon we need a combined pilot group - a PROPER ALPA rather than one that represents either the QF mainline guys/gals or the Virgin guys/gals.

...on your last point we are in FULL agreeance!

I suspect that a search of posts prior to that time would find sentiment from many QF drivers agreeing with that as a basic point. Unfortunately the forum only goes back to 2002 or I could show you a bunch of my posts from 2000, 2001 and so on. :rolleyes:

So you can stick to your mantra (delusions) that QF drivers want to exclude themselves from the rest of the industry but the reality is that there have been many QF drivers over many years who acknowledge the benefits of working with others and taking an industry view rather than an isolationist view. :rolleyes: :ugh:

[Captahab]

Keg
I have always been of the opinion that ALL airline pilots in Aus should be represented by one group/union/fed or whatever you would like to call it.

Your statement of a previous post (if you read it carefully) is NOT from 744driver/737driver/A330Driver etc etc, it is from a member of one of the "excluded" until it helps our cause groups.

Your quote
"Idiot. This is from February 2004....THREE years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dehavilanddriver
I reckon we need a combined pilot group - a PROPER ALPA rather than one that represents either the QF mainline guys/gals or the Virgin guys/gals."
End quote

Do not go quoting other peoples ideas as mainline.
When your own Dash 8 drivers can bid for mainline or international aircraft then you will have demonstrated that you are serious about extending the hand of friendship and unity to VB etc.

Skypatrol
This ex-pres you refer to, is this the same dude that was half pi$$ed and shooting his mouth off about how the ex Ansett guys have destroyed the "culture" in Qantas.

Whe you guys sort your internal poo poos and everyone in your group gets the same respect/rights then you will be ready to progress from the playground :=

Ahab

[podbreak]

Ahab. I think you'll find Keg's suggestion was to get two similar groups talking, both groups in a similar state of negotiation. You'll also find that many insiders have been pushing for the 'group' to fall under the one representation, which is another issue altogether. If you think unity is a good idea, why are you so quick to shutdown those who push for it?

[noip]

" When your own Dash 8 drivers can bid for mainline or international aircraft then you will have demonstrated..."

Ahab,

Your eagerness to attack another group is matched only by your ignorance of the facts. Perhaps your powers of persuasion with Darth will exceed those of mainline pilots, who have ALWAYS supported this avenue as a sensible career path within Qantas.

Perhaps you should consider that your antagonism is mis-directed?

N

(edited to correct the quote)

[Charliethewonderdog]

Unity amongst Airline pilots or pilots as a whole. The reason it's tough at the top is because the disease from GA has spread to the top of the Tree. Look down from your misty heights and help fix GA conditions and you WONT and wouldn't have the problems you have now.
Put pressure on the unions to increase the GA award to come close to the increase’s that other professions have had and you’ll see an increase in your T’s and C’s . Now is the time. Supply and demand is on our side.

When will people realise that the situation is of our own doing. We put up with sub standard conditions at the bottom and management has taken advantage of this at the top. Step aside from your 747 or 737 and look at the industry as a whole.

At present there are pilots willing to fly 717’s for 58,000 a year (after salary sacrificing their endorsement). It’s a JOKE. These pilots should be a shamed.

[KABOY]

Noip,
Several years ago we attempted to negotiate with QF FLT OPS management an avenue for the regional pilots to have a career path who were facing redundancy after 9/11. Unfortunately resistance was found within AIPA and not management. The response at the time was" Sort it out with them, then approach us".

Your defence regarding the past president is true, however, as members there was never a motion passed to tackle this issue. If the vast majority of members were concerned there would have been an agenda placed on the table of the AIPA committee.

The reality was and still is that the vast majority of members were not concerned for the welfare of the subsidiary pilots. The concern has only arisen through the reality that mainline career advancement is evaporating rapidly.

You as a member back then were accountable for the actions of the president.

Keg,

The problem with past events are that they have an irreversible effect on the future. You can't sweep history under the carpet and expect to start afresh to confront the brave new industrial world. What has occured can be paralleled to the 'beaten dog syndrome'.

Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.

[Keg]

Given that you can't follow the logic Ahab let me spell it out for you nice and simple. YOU made the point that unity is something that QF crew have only gotten into in the last 18 months. I disagree entirely with that prospect and that QF drivers for a considerably longer time than that have believed in unity. As an example I quoted Dehavilanddriver, who I have always understood to be a Virgin Pilot, making the point that we should be all working together. Now here is where your logic fails you. Me, as a long time QF employee agreed with that statement. Therefore your delusions about it only being on QF drivers minds in the last 18 months are just that. As my quotes show, a QF driver was talking unity three years ago.

Were the forums able to search back to May 2001 and I reckon you'd find QF drivers talking about unity of the QF pilot group back then when we first bought Impulse. If you go back earlier than that then again I reckon you'll find QF drivers talking about a unified pilot group at earlier times.

So bang on all you like but the reality is that most QF drivers know the history. I'm just determined that your delusional ramblings don't go uncorrected.

KABOY, as members we were kept largely in the dark. I remember being told directly and to my face by someone quite high in the association at the time that we were 'working with the impulse and regional pilots about representation'. Time has shown that to be a lie. Call me industrially naieve at the time.

As to this:
The problem with past events are that they have an irreversible effect on the future. You can't sweep history under the carpet and expect to start afresh to confront the brave new industrial world. What has occured can be paralleled to the 'beaten dog syndrome'.

Whether it was yesterday or a decade ago, people have long memories and there are still people within your organisation who orchestrated these past events.

Yep. I get it. I understand it. I understand that it causes us issues and I understand the reticent that some feel about it. My post was about not banging on about it over and over again on this thread. Less than 200 out of 2300 crew were in QF when AIPA split from AFAP. We have less than 300 that were 'heroes' (as they are known in the PPRUNE venacular) in '89. Since '92 QF have employed some 1200 crew- more than half their pilot body. It's time to put a line under that and move on.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them. I couldn't agree more. However those who continue to look to the past fail to see the future passing them by.....or as my mother put it the other day, 'the longer you look backward over your shoulder, the closer you are to walking into oncoming traffic'. :ok:

[amos2]

Onya, Keg...

you go for it Matey!! :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[max autobrakes]

KABOY et al
please don't tar the present AIPA with the same tar brush used by AIPA of old.
Have a look at the present "Group Opportunity List" that is presently being proposed by the new AIPA team.
Is it any wonder That the powers to be ,will not entertain this concept, yet.
Geez can't have these pilot people actually working together ,from an industrial perspective.
Look what happened to pilots the last time they worked together as one industrial entity,that's right, pilots pay and conditions in this country for close to 40+ years made piloting a "profession" that people where willing to risk a large sum of money in order to obtain a licence ,and then hopefully after many years of hard work get a decent job in an Airline with reasonable pay and conditions.Or conversely do the hard yards in the military and enter an airline from that stream.
What do we have now?
Management playing one pilot group off against another ,creating a race to the point where we all disappear up our own fundamental orifices .

One does not have to be Einstein to work out where this will all lead to.

Why would a kid and his or her family risk 10's of thousands of dollars to get a qualification that will earn the budding pilot less than what a train driver earns with absolutely no job security to boot?

Is it any wonder there is a looming shortage?

Bring on AusALPA I say and lets get back to building a career path of choice not subsistence.

Let's actually create some "choice" out there!

[KABOY]

Max,

I am not tarring the current AIPA with the same brush of old.What I am saying is that every member must look at recent events. No current member of AIPA want to be accountable for events six years ago. I stress member, not COM member!

Six years ago AN collapsed, Impulse was aquired, QF experienced unprecedented growth while other airlines were hitting the wall or downsizing their fleets to grapple with the cash crisis they were experiencing. Pilots joining QF or receiving upgrades within QF saw a bright horizon; what I saw was the beginning of an industrial war being launched in the back rooms of QF, I was in the middle of it. I tried to point this out to various QF people who were all AIPA members. Nobody wanted to listen as their careers were progressing well, times have now changed wouldn't you say?

In order to be unified you have to now justify why we need to be, not because you are now being dealt the same hand that some other subsidiary pilots felt five years ago. Your careers are under threat that is obvious, put forward a convincing case that doesn't just serve your own cause!

[Captahab]

Relax Keg, its nothing personal...its just aviation ;)

Lets go through this slowly...


Given that you can't follow the logic Ahab let me spell it out for you nice and simple.

OK, what logic is it that I cannot follow, the only logic I see in your discussion is that the great unwashed have rattled your cage and all that stuff they told about how you are the best may have been lies...I mean good grief someone else is gonna fly overseas from Aus...Oh dear, Reggie have you heard the news !!


YOU made the point that unity is something that QF crew have only gotten into in the last 18 months.I disagree entirely with that prospect and that QF drivers for a considerably longer time than that have believed in unity. As an example I quoted Dehavilanddriver, who I have always understood to be a Virgin Pilot, making the point that we should be all working together.

I may be wrong but I tend to think that if you need to quote someone who you 'think' is a Virgin pilot to support your argument I will wait for further evidence as there definitely never was any evident in the outside world.


Now here is where your logic fails you. Me, as a long time QF employee agreed with that statement. Therefore your delusions about it only being on QF drivers minds in the last 18 months are just that. As my quotes show, a QF driver was talking unity three years ago.

If you were a long time QF employee you would be a 744 Capt with a son who is about to get his Royal golf club membership and his QF seniority number for his birthday.
Existing SO's may be able to lay claim to that title in years to come, as FO's if they get lucky.

My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.

Were the forums able to search back to May 2001 and I reckon you'd find QF drivers talking about unity of the QF pilot group back then when we first bought Impulse. If you go back earlier than that then again I reckon you'll find QF drivers talking about a unified pilot group at earlier times.

They certainly were talking about it, but for exactly the opposite reasons to the proposal that you are trying to defend.


So bang on all you like but the reality is that most QF drivers know the history. I'm just determined that your delusional ramblings don't go uncorrected.

In typical fashion (as expected), any statement that may resemble reality is responded to by a derogatory comment. :=
That says it all really :(

Ahab

[Keg]

Geez, one more time for the slow learners. :ugh:

You state that QF drivers didn't want to know about anyone else until 18 months ago. I provide direct evidence of QF driver(s) (specifically the one who started this thread who your original comments appear to disparage) wanting to hook up with other pilot groups THREE years ago. Therefore you're point is wrong. As I've previously said a search of the forums before that time would show similar evidence from more than just me. You'll also find many QF drivers backing the same call and widely disparaging the small minority of QF drivers who are insular and believe in only looking after themselves.

One other minor issue. How long does it take to be considered 'long serving'. I've been a QF employee for more than 12 years. I figure I can call myself a 'long serving' employee because I have 108 days of 'long service leave' in my leave bank. The law says I'm 'long serving' and therefore on that point too you are wrong. Nice to see though that we get caught up in side issues as to whether 12 years is considered long service or not. (I acknowledge the ADF consider 'long service' to be 15 years! :rolleyes: ).

My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.

My comments here on this thread. My comments three years ago. First hand. Perhaps you need to read better. If you're not delusion making the above comment then what are you? That's right. Wrong! :E

Done and dusted. Good night. (Thanks for the giggle though. Always funny coming across people like you!) :ok:

[podbreak]

My (delusions) comments are based on the fact that I have never heard of any statements either first or second hand that ever gave any indication of any signs of unity by QF drivers with any group outside QF, quite the opposite in fact.

Where have you been? Its been more than publicly mooted! Wake up and smell the coffee, it doesn't really matter what they wanted in the past, its what they want NOW.

[Pete Conrad]

Keg...I believe the group list has been given a resounding NO from the higher beings. El kaputsky, niet, nein...NO.

[Jetsbest]

Great idea (if not a tad slow in coming thanks to previous/old AIPA) but why is it that SO many of us seem to discount its possibility just because Geoff Dixon/John Borghetti/Chief Pilot say 'it will never happen'. It's spin, posturing and simply a negotiating position to try to achieve larger concessions through greater fear and uncertainty among all pilots.

We should be asking management to explain exactly why they refuse to entertain the idea? Why is it 'too expensive'? Time will tell how cost effective it is to keep hammering your staff when other companies are increasing salaries in order to be able to meet their expansion plans.

Yet again, I'm underwhelmed and DO NOT BELIEVE the pronouncements of QF management. Double-standards, arrogance and self interest continue to be the hallmarks of their style IMHO. :hmm:

[Beech Boy]

For many years I have been involved with both Award and EBA negotiations, as a representative of pilot groups and more recently as a pilot manager (sad but true).

Of all the aspects which make a good outcome hardest to achieve – for all concerned, the greatest is “INDIFFERENCE” to the process. It plays directly into a minimalist outcome and appearance of a disorganised fray.

Sadly with only a few pages directed to this topic and only a few respondents within it, it looks as though the same adage may apply.

As earlier mentioned, you have to start with the grass routes, and that is GA. The Airlines are really only just beginning to see the issues that have riddled GA for many years. You will have a lot of work ahead to turn the corner on this issue.:ugh:

[Captahab]

Quote Keg
(Thanks for the giggle though. Always funny coming across people like you!)

Keg, outside of your previously protected cocoon there are many more of us...its dark and scary out here ;)

Quote Pete Conrad
Keg...I believe the group list has been given a resounding NO from the higher beings. El kaputsky, niet, nein...NO.

That sums it up eh.
Save your energy and the bandwidth Keg, I know your intentions are good (and I sincerely mean that) but as I hinted at earlier, don't go telling others what they should do until you guys can do it for yourselves.

Ahab

[Dagger]

Wow, I love Pprune forum logic. It's so twisted with vitriol and agenda's that it's almost flawless.

I thought this thread was about allowing VB pilots access to Qrewroom, which I think is a fantastic idea :D . From previous posts I am given the impression that this wont be allowed until a group opportunity list is approved by QF management. Not really sure of the link. Have read the EBA twice but still can't find this bit. Must be missing something. Maybe I'll look in the index for Qrewroom :confused: .

[noip]

Dagger,

Don't you know, Pprune is all about Chinese Whispers .... :)

[Keg]

This from the administrator of Qrewroom.

Please let your Virgin mates know that they can now access Qrewroom by registering at .....

I would appreciate if you would remind them to use their real name when registering. Virgin members will have access to their own forum plus all the "public" forums of Qrewroom.

PM me if you don't know the address. I don't want it out publicly for every man and their dog to register....including the automated bots.

A good start.

[3 Holer]

A "good start" to what Keg ? :confused:

[3 Holer]

I know what the title of the thread is dude ;) however, allowing only Virgin crews to access Qrewroom doesn't quite ring true with Keg's statement (of Unity)What I would like to see is the various pilots in this industry working together to reduce the spin of the various managements and reducing the times of being played off against each other due to lack of interaction.
Why not include NJS, RFDS, Air North, Skywest, Oz Jet etc,. as those Companies employ "various pilots" in this industry, who I'm sure are willing to work together to reduce the spin of their respective managements.

[noip]

Guys,

Before the conspiracy theories get out of control ....

Qrewroom is run privately, through the generosity of one of the QF aircrew. Over the years, he has expanded it to include (at present) tech aircrew from the QF Group. His major concern with expanding membership is in making sure that people registering are who they say they are.

It appears that he has solved this problem with regard to Virgin Crew.

A step forward and he deserves congratulations for his efforts, not half-arsed slagging off. I would suggest any other group that desires access approach him NICELY and see what can be arranged.

N

[Pinky the pilot]

If AIPA and the AFAP could extract their collective digits and get on with the job of amalgamating we'd all be a lot better off

Hear bloody hear!!!:ok: :ok:

Any seconders to the motion????

[bushy]

And labour and the liberals will amalgamate too.