Commander's Discretion, and then some!

[CRWCRW]

CX830 4th of this month diverted to Winnipeg. The flight continued to JFK 2:43 hours late.

Same crew, 2 sectors. Max allowable FDP is 17hrs 15mins (18hrs-45mins for the extra sector). Add 2hrs commander's discretion. All up that's 19hrs 15mis max FDP.

If the flight was 2:43 hours late, the max FDP of 19.15 hrs was flown well beyond! What will the CAD do about this?:= Is discretion being used a lot on the hkg-jfk-hkg route when hiccups occur?

Curious:confused:

[404 Titan]

CRWCRW

Are you fishing or just not sure? I just did the flight the other day in 14 hours and 20 minutes. If we had to divert to Winnipeg, being 2:43 hours late wouldn't be a problem. In general flight times this time of year to JFK can be quite short.

[psy clops]

Are you fishing or just not sure?He's not fishing.

[parabellum]

CRCWCRCW Please state the actual, yes, actual block times for this flight. You would appear to be stirring the sh1t without any industry knowledge to fall back on? I have done trans Pacific flights, had to divert to Taipei and, with a double crew, still made it into HKG not just leagally but with time to spare. The flight you mention was LATE by schedule, yes, but from ACTUAL time of departure until ACTUAL time if arrival was the flight outside the FDP + commanders discretion?

[404 Titan]

psy clops

Well then he must not be sure.

[psy clops]

404 Titan

I agree with that, and like all good rumours (?) it's based on truth.

[4PW's]

I guess you're little axe isn't that sharp after all, C-whatever

[2 cents]

parabellum,

I know nothing about this particular flight. However "Actual" time of departure has nothing to do with it. The FDP clock starts at sign on, which is sched departure minus 70 minutes in HKG.

The Scheduled FDP for CX830 is 16:10, and this flight was 2:43 late on blocks in JFK, so the actual FDP would have been 18:53.

Max FDP is 17:15, plus 2 hours of discretion = 19:15. So it looks like this particular flight was within this limit. Pretty long day though...

[hog tied]

CX830 4th of this month diverted to Winnipeg. The flight continued to JFK 2:43 hours late.

Same crew, 2 sectors. Max allowable FDP is 17hrs 15mins (18hrs-45mins for the extra sector). Add 2hrs commander's discretion. All up that's 19hrs 15mis max FDP.

If the flight was 2:43 hours late, the max FDP of 19.15 hrs was flown well beyond! What will the CAD do about this?:= Is discretion being used a lot on the hkg-jfk-hkg route when hiccups occur?

Curious:confused:

Let's see... your first post and you try to tattle on a fellow pilot. Very nice touch, indeed.:ok:

[parabellum]

Hi 2 cents, yes your point taken. Assuming they did sign-on on schedule and weren't delayed at the hotel/at home, which seems unlikely in this case. As you say, a pretty long day nevertheless, even though it was legal.
Just don't like sh1t stirring, that's all!;)

[CRWCRW]

Okay guys,

Start duty HKG 0105z. On blocks JFK 2.43 late. Schedule on blocks 17.55z plus the delay of 2.43 (as nick says is his update) = 20.38z

This is a FDP of 19.33hrs! The info is in the weekly update for all to read, I just crunched some figures. Is there something wrong with my maths?

[404 Titan]

CRWCRW

Ok I have checked the official FDP for that flight. As is turns out it was infact 19:34 hrs so yes it was over the official extended FDP of 19:15 hrs by 19 mins. In saying that one should also re-read the relevant section of Vol 1. It states:
24.5 The maximum FDP permitted using Commander’s Discretion will be calculated by adding three hours to the maximum allowable Standard FDP. On ULR Operations or in the event that the Standard FDP has already been extended by the use of either In-Flight Relief or Split Duty then the maximum that can be added is two hours. These three and two hour extensions may only be exceeded in an emergency. In this respect, an emergency is a situation which, in the judgement of the aircraft Commander, presents a serious risk to the health and/or safety of crew and/or passengers, or endangers the lives of others. (My bolding)
As the average temperature in Winnipeg this month has been a daily high of about -20°C and daily low of about -30°C and no one being dressed or packed for such cold conditions and accommodation most likely being very limited, including in the terminal, I would suggest the Captain has made a very good call to continue. In which case he has complied with the intent of the AFTL’s.

[Mr. Bloggs]

You are just justifying why the rule was broken.

When four pilots are boarded, the maximum allowable FDP for a single Sector will be eighteen
hours, regardless of considerations of acclimatisation or time of start of the FDP.
When is Commanders Discretion meant to be used? Did this chap go over because he felt he had to? I believe 18 hours is only to be exceeded in case of emergency. After the passenger was offloaded, the flight to JFK was strictly commercial not an emergency.
I did not realize the terminals/hotels were not heated in Canada.
If this chap broke the law, pressured or expected to break the rules, well something needs to be addressed. This chap may have to be the first to get his reprimand so the rest will not break the rules.
Like being configured at 1500', it is the limit, not the target. The limit is the limit. Ask the blokes that failed their commands because of it.

[404 Titan]

Mr. Bloggs

404, you are full of Sh!tt.

Really? Pretty typical response from a CPU moron like yourself. Attack the person. Is that straight out of you guide book on intimidation? After all you seem to get on here and do it all the time. People that know me know I’m nowhere near associated with management. For your information I have studied aspects of law when I was at uni and I can tell you that your interpretation of Commanders discretion is wrong but that is totally expected from someone that only sees things from an industrially militant point of view.

• First of all 18 hours FDP can be exceeded for commercial or what ever reason by 2 hours to get the job done if the crew and commander are comfortable with it. Legal fact.
• An 18 hour FDP already extended 2 hours by Commanders Discretion can only be extended in emergency. Legal fact.

I believe 18 hours is only to be exceeded in case of emergency.
• Nowhere does it say the commander can only extend beyond 18 hours in emergency. This is you industrially motivated interpretation which is legally incorrect. Fact

I did not realize the terminals/hotels were not heated in Canada.
They probably are. Who cares. This doesn’t make -20°C to -30°C temperatures safe if you aren’t properly clothed and equipped. I have no idea what the accommodation situation in Winnipeg was like on the 4th. Do you? I would suggest though the commander of this flight probably did and partly based his decision on it.

Like being configured at 1500', it is the limit, not the target.
Yep in normal operations 18 hours is the limit. This obviously wasn’t a normal operation for this particular commander and crew. Were you there? No you weren’t, so don’t presume to know what was going through this particular commander’s head just to score a politically motivated point. Quite frankly I think he made the right decision based on what the conditions were like, not because it suited the company to continue as you are trying to allude to.

You are just justifying why the rule was broken.
Sorry no rule was broken. Legal Fact. Oh that's right you're looking at it purely from a industrilly militant point of view. :=

[Numero Crunchero]

Wow 404, never seen you angry before....

The NY flight is a day flight...I would rather do that 19hr day with 4 crew than a 3 day 111/110 or 135/134 with 3 crew. I won't begin to second guess this guy but I would probably have continued AS LONG AS the other 3 guys were happy to. Flying is about common sense...for those that don't have common sense we have Vol 1 and Vol 2part2.

How much taxi time was there at the end...he might have touched down 30mins earlier adn then been delayed...what does he do then, shut down arm the slides and evacuate?

By the way mr bloggs, I can assure you that 404 is no more management than I am.

I can't recall how many times I have been into discretion as CN/FO in my career here...but I know almost all of them were not 'emergencies'.

[404 Titan]

Crunchero my Mexican friend. How are you? Hope your Xmas and new year were great.

Yeh it takes a lot to get me hot under the collar. Box Head and I have had differences of opinion before so this isn’t new. Let’s just say I don’t agree with most of his opinions and where they are coming from. His judgement is clouded with bitter anger and hatred for everything CX and AOA.

[electricjetjock]

CRWCRW
You have got your maths wrong on your last post.
Sign on 0105 STA 1755 = 16:50 + 2:43 = 19:33
Yes the FDP was reduced from 18:00 to 17:15 and add your two hours = 19:15 Extended FDP, so an 18 minute overrun. NOT a massive EXCEEDANCE as you are implying. Also they could have been set to arrive well within the 19:15 but were delayed on the gound in JFK waiting for a bay and all sorts of little things could have added unforseen minutes, my bet is on ground handling in JFK. It can be very busy and you can taxy 240 degrees rather than 120 to get to your terminal and if you do not know what I mean by that then you have obviously never been to JFK.:=

[Mr. Bloggs]

My Apologies 404 Titan

Just on some imposed leave. You know how it is.

My post has be amended and you are correct. Max allowable FDP on a single sector is 18 hours and 17:15 on two sectors, after that it is commanders discretion in this case would be 2 hours. Twenty hours is only to be exceeded in case of emergency. The bloke was still over this whether due to taxi or whatever.

Whenever I see duties times over 18 hours I think of posts from the like of The Management automatically extending the duty to 20 hours. I can only assume 20 hour duties with be the norm in the future.

Don’t know your friend “Boxhead” but I guess that is between you and him.

Just because one speaks out and has an opinion does not mean one is a CPU moron, industrially militant or hate everything CX or AOA and that goes both ways(the all lovings).

I believe we have been royally shafted over the years by our own and CX. We continue to get shafted as we speak. Take a look at some of the thread headlines.

Why, because we get the job done.

Again, my apologies. I got too personal.

[404 Titan]

Mr. Bloggs

Sorry for not getting back quicker. Your apology is accepted and I too apologise for the tone of my post. It probably wasn’t necessary.
Just on some imposed leave. You know how it is.
Yeh, I know what that is like. It happened to me last year. I am a little wiser now though and know how to work the system. With 150 odd leave credit points though I shouldn’t have too.:ugh:
Whenever I see duties times over 18 hours I think of posts from the like of The Management automatically extending the duty to 20 hours.
I wouldn’t get too excited about posts from “The Management” if you know what I mean.;) :ok:

[GlueBall]

CRWCRW: . . . "2-hrs Commander's discretion" in my book would never be automatic nor dictatorial; I don't ever intimidate my crew to exceed normal duty limitations.

[Mr. Bloggs]

All the times I have been in discretion, I have never been asked. Can't be intimidated if you are not asked, I suppose. It is just done.

Crew Control deducts your allowance when you are late. Just the reward for helping out.:ok:

[VR-HFX]

Discretion used to be just that..discrete and not plastered all over PPrune...and everyone was willing to do it to bring home the bacon.

The company knew it and appreciated it by sharing the bacon.

As to why someone would even consider it now is beyond me.

[Mr. Bloggs]

It’s called intimidation.:=

[VR-HFX]

Bloggs

True enough. I prefer to call it bullying. It only becomes intimidation if you succumb to the bullying.

I will still answer the phone when I needn't but there is no way I will fly out of hours anymore, for the very simple reason that it's like interpreting...all YOU can do is make a mistake...or in this case get ratted on.

[Numero Crunchero]

If you always do the right thing then your actions will bear scrutiny. It wasn't me on this NY trip but it just as easily have been! I wasn't there but as I have said before, I probably also would have extended. Why? Its good for the company, my crew and for the pax...they want to get to NY, so as long as it is SAFE and LEGAL, why not!?

Before I go into discretion I ask all the crew, in a no-guilt manner, who wants to extend. If anyone says no, we don't extend....simple! I make it clear that it is my decision ultimately. I have declined on several occasions as well, on my own behalf, even though my crew were happy to extend. I am happy to stand in the CPs office and justify all my actions.

So airing it on PPRUNE is a detail...I like it as it got me thinking what I would do in the same situation. This was a good lesson how close you can get to the absolute duty limits even though it looked like a straightforward enroute diversion. Lessons learned...no jeopardy!


just my 2cents worth.

[Mr. Bloggs]

NC, I agree. We must help out when we can. After all, we should be grateful we are employed.

:ok:

[FlexibleResponse]

Discretion used to be just that..discrete and not plastered all over PPrune...and everyone was willing to do it to bring home the bacon.

The company knew it and appreciated it by sharing the bacon.

As to why someone would even consider it now is beyond me.

A very good comment which rather encapsulates the whole sorry saga and change to modern CX "management" really.

[BlunderBus]

And I Suppose You're All Taking Into Consideration That Under The Cx Flight Time Limitations It Is Perfectly 'legal' To Have Performed This 'extension' When The Crew May Have Just Flown A 16 Hour Sector The Previous Day!
It's Also Possible To Have Done Hkg-lax-hkg-lax-hkg Flying Everyday And Having Two Extensions On Both Lax-hkg Legs....
Who's Yawning Now?....answer?
Who Isn't!

[404 Titan]

BlunderBus

And that is the exact reason why a captain can decline an extension to a FDP. It is there in black and white. I personally have flown with a captain that declined a request to extend a FDP on a ULH opp for a similar reason. No one questioned his decision and there were no ramifications later on. His decision as far as I was concerned was based on valid reasoning.
24.4 After receiving a request, the aircraft Commander, taking into consideration all relevant factors, including the circumstances of the other crew members, including Cabin Crew members, and the over-riding consideration of safety, will inform the Company of his/her decision. The aircraft Commander may decline the request and also may elect to work less than the full extent of the provisions of 24.5, 24.6 or 24.7. The Commander’s decision in such matters will be final and unquestioned.

[tryhard]

Oh Bravo Titan tally ho old chap well said, out for the fox, blah blah blah. Your not even a Captain!

[VR-HFX]

Try Hard

Change your handle to Flaccid..it far better suits your posts:ugh:

[404 Titan]

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