Surrey Air Ambulance

[cptjim]

I've heard through the rumour mill that the Kent Air Ambulance Trust has secured an MD902 for future ops in and around the Surrey and Sussex area.

Does anyone happen to know the reg or serial of the "new" heli in its previous guise? I do know that it is going to MAS in Staverton for a refit for all the medical equipment at some point, so if anyone could get some pics that would be great! :ok:

I have heard that it'll be up and running around April and based at Dunsfold for the time being but maybe perminantly if all goes well.

Jim

[FloaterNorthWest]

Not G-WMID is it?

FNW

[Coconutty]

NO !

I hear that G-WMID will be at PAS next week for its Annual Inspection ( should anyone happen to spot it in the hangar ).

However - it WILL be returning to West Mids for continued Police ops !

How about G-EHMS ??

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[cptjim]

I don't think it'll be G-EHMS as they have only just had the annual and the thruster cone extension done. I know HEMS London were looking at getting an EC 145 but are staying put for the time being due to poor funding.

[HeliEng]

FloaterNorthWest,

It could well be G-WMID, I know that West Midlands new 135 is at Oxford at the moment being modded, but I am not sure whether they have managed to pass on the 900 yet!

[shadowfax]

Surrey will be using G-PASH http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search

[Skidkid]

Does anyone know what is going to happen to the current Sussex Police/Air Ambulance operation? Presumably there will not be enough work or funding to allow it to continue in addition to a dedicated air ambulance operating in the same area.

[Helinut]

Skidkid,

I think that would be a rather dangerous assumption.

[Jarvy]

I belive it will just become a police only helicopter.

[cptjim]

Hi Shadowfax,

Are you sure it's G-PASH? I was definately told it was an MD902 by my very reliable source. I know they used G-PASH (AS355 F1) to promote the launch of the Surrey appeal (they used G-SASH, MD902, now the Yorkshire Air Ambulance, for the launch of the Sussex appeal). In the past G-PASH has always been used as a back up for police and HEMS work by Specialst Aviation Services.

Best regards

Jim

[Bravo73]

I was definately told it was an MD902 by my very reliable source.


Their new website (http://www.sussexairambulance.co.uk/) (http://www.sussexairambulance.co.uk/) certainly implies that it will be an MD902. No details on reg though...


It also confirms that it will be operational as of April 2007 from Dunsford.

[Flaxton Flyer]

You need to be looking to a far off distant part of the world to see where this one is coming from...

[cptjim]

You need to be looking to a far off distant part of the world to see where this one is coming from...

:ugh: You can't just leave it at that!!

Jim:E

[Skidkid]

Helinut,

I think that would be a rather dangerous assumption.

I cannot see what is "dangerous" about my assumption. I believe that Sussex Ambulance Service provide 25% of the funding to the current joint police/air ambulance operation. It is highly unlikely that they will continue to provide this money if there is a separate dedicated air ambulance operating in the same area. The shortage of money within the British National Health Service (NHS) is already well known.

If that 25% funding is removed, then Sussex Police are going to have to increase their contribution by about the same amount, in order to continue the operation as a dedicated police air support unit. How are they going to find that money when the British Home Office has already indicated its intention to substantially reduce the central government funding to police services in the 2008/9 financial year?

[md 600 driver]

g pash is not owned by pas anymore but!!

[Daft bat]

Heard it was nearer 40% funding form the Air Ambulance side. Also heard and it is only a rumor at the moment that possible link up between Sussex and Surrey for Police Op's. Anybody else heard anything ?

[PANews]

Anybody is allowed to change their mind, but WMID has said that they intend to fly both aircraft for the forseeable future. They are coy about whether this is forever or just until the market on the MD recovers a bit and gives them a decent price. WMID would not fit the timescale that both Yorkshire and Kent/Sussex appear to be talking up. With UK air ambulances falling over themselves for the 902 that recovery may be soonish in UK terms!

AVAILABILITY
There is/was an ex-German 900/902 at PAS that they have had for a while and allegedly a few lying unused in the Far East that may fit the bill. Whether that one at PAS is a flyer or not I do not know. Suffolk County Police in the US had a couple of EMS role equipped machines on offer... and I hear that the KLPD has a hostage 900 in their hangar in Holland!

Whatever the final result both Kent and Yorkshire each seem to have their eyes on something substantive so I guess they are sure will come into the UK within weeks.

[ppheli]

PANews - the German reg'd one at PAS was roaded back out to Germany (to a different Police force) in the last 14 days.

Shadowfax - PASH was merely used for a one-off PR event to launch the fund-raising at Brooklands Museum many months ago.

[Trolleys]

Skidkid,
Just to clarify a few points for you.
1. Sussex Ambulance Service does not exist anymore. It is now part of the South East Coast Ambulance Service (SECAMB).
2. SECAMB is committed to supporting the joint Sussex Police/HEMS unit. It is the only resource in the South East capable of night HEMS operations.
3. The Sussex aircraft will continue to work closely with both the new unit and the existing Kent Air Ambulance, providing complimentary cover during the day and sole cover at night.
There are some that would say that the Sussex Police model is close to ideal:
1. Police get help funding their aircraft.
2. With the Paramedic fulfilling the role of the second Air Observer, fewer bobbies are taken off the beat.
3. The Ambulance Service gets a night capable HEMS asset.
4. En route to an incident the aircraft can use Police weather limits to deliver a Paramedic in worse conditions than the dedicated Air Ambulance.
5. The Police helicopter is generally an under used asset (with obvious exceptions!) so sharing it with the Ambulance Service increases it's productivity.
And to the sceptical:
1. I have never known an incident when there has been conflict between the Police and HEMS roles. The Police Officer's core responsibility is preservation of life.
2. The Paramedics go through a thorough selection procedure and Observer training course. They are every bit as capable in the Observer role as any Police Officer.
3. It's the most fun a pilot can have with his trousers on. You can chase the car until it crashes then land to save the little sh**'s life.

[Skidkid]

Trolleys,

Many thanks, that has answered my question nicely. You are obviously directly involved with the unit and are having a lot of fun. Best of luck to everyone there for the future.

[cptjim]

Seeing as April is closing in, does anybody have any updates on what aircraft the Surrey Air Ambulance will be?

Regards

Jim

[ppheli]

Jim

Both www.SurreyAirAmbulance.co.uk and www.SussexAirAmbulance.co.uk continue to say April 2007 start, you're right. However, a leaflet was circulated a few weeks back in some parts of Surrey which gave the start date as 8th June.

This could well tie in with the availability of G-WMID, the current West Midlands Police aircraft which is shortly to be replaced by a Pratt-engined EC135P2i G-WMAO. Given Kent AA's like of the Explorer and the photos on the Sussex website (the Surrey one features the AS355 they used for the fundraising launch), everything points to that helicopter type being the one, and WMID is the only available airframe short of importing one from somewhere - and I'm not aware of any imported Explorer in the UK recently.

Cheers

ppheli

[bell222]

i thought that west midlands police were keeping their 902 for back up purposes and not selling it ?

[ppheli]

well, I guess the UK's second biggest city would be the next one in line to justify a second aircraft - while noting that the third largest is already at that point with one fixed and one rotary wing. So, 222, seems very feasible!

But it reopens the question - which helicopter for the Surrey/Sussex Air Ambulance?

[CAPTAIN COP!]

You're absolutely correct regarding the new Surrey Air Ambulance, it will
definitely NOT be G-EHMS!

I remember talking to one of the London Hems pilots and specifically specified the London Hems Trust/NHS Trust were hoping to raise, and to get further funding to obtain an EC145.

G-EHMS was even advertised for sale in the hope to recoup some finances to inject funding for a new aircraft. However, I was informed due to the aircraft's high component times and due to the lack of interest from potential purchasers the idea was boshed and the current aircarft was kept and has now been upgraded regarding the tail cone and thrust system.

Captain Cop!

[ppheli]

The fact the tail boom has been done is nothing to do with the fact that they are "now keeping G-EHMS". I think you will find the whole UK fleet is being done, and may be even _for free_! Well, that's what I heard anyway!

The G-EHMS lack of sale could also have been due to the price being asked, I suppose?

[PANews]

Explorer prices remain depressed. With under 100 being available you might expect them to attract a better price [HAI give price ranges in the order of $1.7M to $2.7M] when compared to the more numerous alternatives [the same source gives EC135 in the range of $2.5M to $3.25M and the 109 Power $2.9 to $4.5N] but clearly the availability factor continues to bite hard.

It seems strange that the other thread current at the moment relating to S92 and AW139 aircraft availability rates [CHC complaining publicly about low introductory availability rates] is not causing the same furore that attended the disclosure of MD900 rates in the same league! Obviously each draws their Ppruners from a very different fanatic base!

When Yorkshire AA bought their Explorer recently they appeared to pay top $$ but that was still apparently too low for the aspirations of such as London HEMS.

Although West Mids Police have publicly declared they are hanging on to their 900 and indicated that it is to be used as a back up it is pretty much public knowledge that price is a factor. You just cannot sell at the prices you can get when you may well have to then explain a terrific loss. And that is an organisation that saw the writing on the wall a long time ago and wrote off the airframe in financial terms long before ordering another machine. Equally the second aircraft [the reorder] for GMP may well have to hang around at Barton until values move upward.

Because Kent are pulling the strings in Kent/Surrey/Sussex it can be assumed that their preference will be for the 900. However with the numbers of good second hand 900s being low they may well start their extended operations with other more cost efficient types while JAROPS allows them to [355/105] but despite the ex-police types mentioned above I am not aware of many 900s being available in the UK.

[bell222]

so we are still none the wiser to what they will use..

[Helinut]

Take a look at the SAS website, news relase dated 1 Dec 2006. It seems pretty clear that they will be using a 902:
http://www.specialist-aviation.co.uk/news011206.htm
Air Ambulance Service for Surrey and Sussex - A Step Closer
"Kent Air Ambulance Trust has selected Medical Aviation Services Ltd. to provide an MD Explorer which will be based at Dunsfold from early next year."

There could easily be a short term interim solution, but the final aircraft is pretty clear, especially given the operator and the AA trust involved.

[cptjim]

Thanks to everyone for their replies, I know that the 'new' aircraft will be an MD902 but I was curious as to where it is coming from e.g. what airframe/serial.

Originally Posted by Flaxton Flyer http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3057578#post3057578)
You need to be looking to a far off distant part of the world to see where this one is coming from...

Oh well, time will tell I suppose!

Regards

Jim:ok:

[quichemech]

There are a few spare 902 airframes in indonesia, is that far enough away?

Bright yellow at the moment, nothing a quick respray won't sort though:rolleyes:

[Flaxton Flyer]

Quicemech - make that "there were a few spare airframes in Indonesia"

CptJim - the best laid plans and all that. See above as to why my original post is no longer valid!

[ppheli]

Just to check we have this in proportion, there have only ever been two Explorers in Indonesia:-

#89 PK-OCR since sold and now operating in China as B-7740
#90 PK-OCS reported sold to _Yorkshire_ Air Ambulance

so.... question must be whether the report of YAA buying #90 as their second Explorer (deposit = Hammond money) is wrong, or Surrey are buying something else. Any clues?

[bell222]

the mind boggles :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Flaxton Flyer]

ppheli -

S/N 0090 definitely Yorkshire bound.
S/N 0089 originally in Surrey's sights but sold before they could progress it any further.

[bell222]

so we are still guessing place your bets folks

[Helinut]

The MAS website seemed clear that the contract was for a 902. Maybe not at the start, but given the suitability of the 902 for HEMS, what others have indicated about Kent and that SAS are the 902 agent it is a fair bet that is what they will get idc

[quichemech]

So what is happening to GMPS when the new machine is delivered?

[bell222]

maybe they will keep it and sell the defender just like north east asu have done with 2 135's.

[DaveE]

You are all looking at 902's.....I think you will find out that they start with a BO105 G-WYPA, the old West yorkshire Police machine that has gone and had a role change in the last year or so.

[quichemech]

Spot on Mr E, now where did you find that out?:hmm:

[DaveE]

I used to look after WYPA years ago and happened to ask PAS when I was on the hunt for 902 parts what it was upto these days as I had seen it flying around as an air ambulance up here.

P.S Good luck with your new job.

[quichemech]

Thank you.

[Paradism]

Flaxton Flyer

I observe from G-INFO that Yorkshire Air Ambulance have registered 900-00089 as their aircraft, registration to be G-CEMS.

[bell222]

has any body got any pictures of the new heli thanks:ok:

[aeromys]

Doesn't show much of the livery, but here they are in action at the weekend.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/aeromys/DSC_0020.jpg

[cptjim]

Bell222, have a look on pages 11 and 12 of this month Police Aviation News and you'll see one of the temporary BO105 (G-WYPA is one of them) and a mock up of what the Surrey Explorer is going to look like.

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/PANewsJuly2007.pdf

Jim :ok:

[bell222]

thanks jim will do

[Coconutty]

Here she is in all her glory .....

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/G-KSSH.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Short programme on Radio 4 about Surrey Air Ambulance:

BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - GPs Who Need GPS, The Flying Doctor (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tfv5h)