EK: Mister Ed, The Training Meeting & The "Pay-Rise." (threads merged)

[Alan Squeely]

Mister Ed told a recent training meeting that EK management has to admit to screwing up, in the face of the number of pilot resignations. He also said that there would be a "big announcement" within ten days.

Well Mister Ed, times up, appears that your "big announcement" was another work of fiction cooked up in the halls of Flight Ops. management. It was refreshing to hear the management are admitting to their bumbling ineptitude though.

Now...how about coming up with something substantive, instead of hot air and empty rhetoric?

[Marooned]

There is a massive difference in what Ed and co knows needs to be done and what can actually be done...

Resignations continue, more on the way, pilot pool dried up (where are the 10,000 - 15,000 TCAS?).

I said it before and perhaps its worth repeating: EK is in crisis and the silence is deafening. :ugh:

[fo4ever]

Is it a fact that the pilot pool is running on fumes?

As I understood, Mr Ed said at the training meeting that the lack of crew is not a problem as we speak, since its covered by pilots flying on days OFF.

Stop flying on days OFF.

fo4ever

[Vorsicht]

Another hard lesson for the talking horse.

I dont believe that he is so stupid as to have made those statements without some indication from his superiors that something was going to happpen. But as is the norm at EK, his bosses have hung him out to dry.

Although it is just possible that Ed still thinks he is in a first world country where normal management rules apply. That can surely be the only reason he told everyone, at the same meeting, that jump seats were gonna happen. As everyone who has been here just a bit longer than him (which is almost everyone) know, the jump seat proposal got the same treatment it has every other time it has got to TC's desk, and i suggest the same will happen to any proposed significant payrise. Whatever is passed on, if anything, will be seriously diluted from what has been proposed if history has any bearing.

Don't hold your breath, and keep the CV's up to date.

V

[Fart Master]

As I have said before I get the sneaking suspicion that these false rumours are leaked by people up on high just to make people hang around for a little while longer, or if they are undecided as to staying or leaving then it might persuade them to stay.

One thing I do know, and I stand to be corrected is that none of these payrise/jumpseat/changes in T's&C's etc have ever happened.

:ugh: this is how most of the pilots feel.

It's amazing how brave managers are when they know that we are powerless to do anything about their crass decisions/policies......except leave of course:mad: :rolleyes:

[violate]

Well its not as if Ed is payed for his brains, he is just another lower echelon whipping boy, just how TC likes them. False hopes and promises are de rigeur for this organisation, its all just sooo predictable

[flareflyer]

Can somebody say: "IT IS ALL TRUE, I WAS AT THAT MEETING"

Flare

[Trashed Aviator]

Heard salary will increase 25% + 3% ,but overtime will not kick in until above 95 hours , call out pay may be abolished ???

[mensaboy]

Actually, the removal of incentive pay might be just the thing to inspire those who tend to fly on days off, not to answer the phone anymore.

Again, its a short-sighted cost saving, that will have dire long term affects. It would not surprise me if they tried this one, but I have a suspicion that it would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

Is anyone at all surprised that the announcement made at a training meeting has not transpired? I'm not, although I admit to being sucked into hoping.

Shortly we will debating whether or not the 'announcers' knew beforehand or if they too were duped. I'm betting on the former.

The level of deception and overall disregard for us no longer surprises me. The inventiveness of saving a buck is only surpassed by the near-sightedness of the policies. Greed certainly can be quite the motivator.

[Ghostflyer]

Squeely,

Mr Ed actually said the announcement would occur in "3-4 weeks", the meeting was 18th Dec. He also said that the rostering barriers that would have to be implemented in expanding the opeartion beyond 900 hours meant that it was unlikely to happen.

I for one feel that I am already on the limit. Any increase would lead just lead to more long term sickness and consequent rostering problems. Most of us have tried to keep the operation on the go, my loyalty to the company sits way behind preventing digging my own grave. All the overtime in the world is as much use as tits on a frog , if you can't spend it!

The management claims to have been there and got the tee-shirt; they haven't. The last time AS and Ed flew, long haul was not mixed with short haul duties and crews flew very few trips a month which enabled them to avoid or at least mitigate long term fatigue. To see how out of touch they are you only have to see the latest newsletter that quotes easy-jets fatigue management programme. What on earth does a short haul european opeartion's fatigue management have to do with our ULR ops.

We have these wonderful guides on how to plan for flights but they do not allow for guys that can't sleep in the bunk or find it difficult to go to work when not aclimatised. In theory it might be possible to shift your circadian rythm a little; but 5 times a month in different directions, I think not. The management pilots fly 1 ULR trip every blue moon and don't see the problem. That is the point occasional long range flying is fine, 100 hours a month definitely is not.

Bottom line is that if we are fatigued we shouldn't go to work. Those that do will just shoot us all in the foot; I am not pre-pared to do it. The company would not even have thought of increasing the limits if they had the true picture on fatigue and watched a ULR error trapping exercise with their own eyes.

Off to fall asleep in front of the TV after another night flight.

Ghost

[what_goes_up]

Ghost
In general agree totally with your post. Bang on. But...
We have these wonderful guides on how to plan for flights but they do not allow for guys that can't sleep in the bunk or find it difficult to go to work when not aclimatised.
... in my opinion this is one of the very few things you cannot blame the company for. If a ULR pilot cannot sleep in the bunk and is too tired to do his work, he is in the wrong job and should seek employment with a short haul carrier.
Sorry if it is taken a bit out of context, as I absolutely agree with the overall fatigue problem.

W_G_U

[Ghostflyer]

WGU,

You are absolutely right and I don't disagree one bit. I am not blaming the company for guys not being able to sleep in the bunk. Sometimes though, the medium chop prevents even the best hibernator catching 40 winks. But....he shouldn't fly back from Aus and then be forced to knob off west 48 hours later due to crap rostering and a total lack of understanding of the real limitations of the human body. He should actually get a chance to recuperate.

There is no reason that anyone should be expected to, say, do a trip to Aus followed by a trip to LGW. A day off and then an early morning call for Delhi followed by an evening trip the next day. Or back to back Osakas. Some of the patterns that are churned out by the system are 'unrestable' and that is down to lack of resources but thats probably another thread or a bigger payrise.

Ghost

[uplock]

W_G_U Its not so simple….Ask the guys who do the research and write papers on Ultra Long haul Flying.

Emirates had a leading expert in the Field who issued guidelines and published charts which are written for one and all to see however in practice are mostly ignored because of the practical aspects of the job.

In my book Rostering = Company and crap rostering means you will have problems sleeping so Ghostflyer was correct


Most of my crew are pretty much knackerd on an OZ trip come 9 hrs time difference and the body trying to work our when and when it should stay awake or fall asleep.

Thought the comment about management watching ULR error trapping from GR was very relevant, perhaps they Management should sit on the Flightdeck (dont know where though) watching 4 guys arrive back from MEL or SYD into DXB and see how things happen in the real world.

[gj18457]

These false payrise rumours occur every year at the same time.It just buys them some time until the bonus is announced.Ed still believes he can implement some change and is about to learn he cant.He will end up just another chair-borne manager with no power.As far as guidelines and recommendations regarding managing rest etc,these models work fine in airlines that have proper rostering practices.Which alas EK does not.My only advice is to find a new company or career and leave this job to the young low cost boys and girls who actualy believe this is a good job.I wish they would do another round of cost cutting and get rid of the newsletter.

[L1011]

Fatigue is not an issue EK likes to talk about. Try the SYD-CHC or MEL-AKl pattern and tell me how you sleep for that? The sector across the Ditch is silly as the pilots have got about two hours sleep each. A five day flight with only three nights in a hotel, only one of which counts as a 'local night'. Go figure.

Tried talking to our esteemed VP-Safety about it, but got fobbed off. He has only done the DXB-SYD/MEL turns and reckon SLR is piece of cake. Dug around a bit and figured out that none of the Office Boys ever go across the Tasman. That's left to us coolies in bottom bid.:ouch:

The ULR experts are SIA. They did some extensive research with an Aussie University on the SIN-LAX/EWR routes. SIA pilots get two local nights at the destination and a week off after the flight - overkill perhaps but safe. Funny how EK never mentions their research.

Going to change my handle to Despairing Dubayan.:(

[L1011]

KH - The priceless quote from Tim was down the lines of "Why can't pilots be like submarine captains and operate on four hour shifts, sleeping in between. That way they can keep going for ever".
He also muttered something in the same interview about 800 seat 380s flying from Stanstead to Avalon full of the great unwashed who buy their food from vending machines. Not sure what he smokes, but I'd sure like some of it.

One major difference is that submarine captains get to torpedo other vessels.:E I'm drawing up my list already.

[AI744]

this is exactly what happens when you have a Chairman used for photo-ops ONLY and a CEO with a foot in the grave. Apparently Timmy told a friend of mine in SQ the fact that EK pilots having a rostering problem is absurd. What a :mad: !!!!

[Ahad Adump]

Hey TC, look, nurses get 30%.

http://www.gulfnews.com/nation/Employment/10095844.html

[my salami]

Yeah right!! Imagine the title on Gulf News...
Pilots to get 5 percent pay rise....
....we have to do this otherwise we won't keep our pilots...
:yuk: :ugh: :{

[Alan Squeely]

The office girls are saying that "Top Cat" cancelled the proposed package as he doesn't believe that there is any need to change anything.

Seems that anything from Mister Ed isn't from the horse's mouth!

:mad:

[chinawladi]

Fair enough, his beliefs. So why shouldn't each and everyone of us show him he's wrong. There are brazillions of ways.........................

[chinawladi]

It makes sense not increasing our package: Some might then be inclined to do no more off day flying, meaning they would have to engage more pilots. Now paying 20% of the workforce 4-8000aed pm for overtime is cheaper than paying 100% some 3-6000 pm pay increase plus having to hire some% more.
To those flying on days off, do your own maths now: 4-8000 pm on maybe 6 months, versus 3-6000 on 12 months (plus the eventual bonus) and then go back to your mirror and shave the fool. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I'm pretty sure that EK will never ever give you even a giveaway toothbrush if they're not under pressure. The only pressure TC understands is a plane that does not leave Dubai.

[my salami]

Well...tomorrow is Saturday right?So why instead of bitching around on this forum you don't go to CBC and ask him ?:D

[porkandbrew]

Hello!

This debacle just goes to show how EK's stone age management style works in real life. Mr. Long Range Eddie (I refuse to call him and TCAS Captain) obviously went to the training meeting to announce contract improvements before he spoke to TC about the same. Ed, who preaches the importance of good communications...What a fool he has made of himself...Credibility gone a long way west if you ask me.

The Jet Airways deal is starting to look really good with a European base.

Pork

[my salami]

You assume I have a day off tomorrow....

Even if I did, it would mean that:
1. I'd have to cross the Garhoud Bridge
and
2. Unlike you have probably been around long enough to know that the trip would amount to nothing more than more lies.
:rolleyes:

Now be a good boy and see which "open time" flights you can volunteer to fly on your next day off!
:ok:
Let me rephrase my sentence..
Instead of bitching around on this forum why don't you put in your resignation?:}

[my salami]

I apologyze for the behaviour but I did't start to be sarcastic:*

[MR8]

Hey guys,

We all know what happened to the payrise Mr. Ed announced on the last training meeting. It never happened and I'm hearing in the dark corners of CBC that TC apparently shot the whole idea down.
Since I'm just an humble F/O, officialy 'not knowing' anything, I can't really walk into Mr. Ed's office to ask what his plan B is. Therefore, anyone who was present at the training meeting where Mr. Ed announced the payrise (and let's not forget roster improvements and jumpseats), would it be possible to either have a little phonecall to the horse, either ask the question at the next training meeting (which date?) if Mr. Ed should be there.

I'm curious why the whole idea went down. Other things I heard is that we are ranked at nr. 22 as for pay compared to other airlines. Hardly competitivein my opinion. Is the plan to postpone the whole thing untill the annual review, or can we forget about this proposed 'package' alltogether?

MR8

[EGGW]

Why not fire off an e-mail to ED, he is quite approachable. The stuff from that training meeting is common knowledge mate.

Ed is still learning about management EK style, you get shat on from above. TC did itr to him http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sauer/angry-smiley-038.gif

EGGW

[BigGeordie]

I'm not knowing either but for what it's worth I can't see how they would give us a pay rise before they announce the profit share (if any) as they would then have to base the profit share on the higher pay. So it was always pretty much inevitable that we weren't getting anything until May. The burning question is how much we will get then. I reckon 30% would just about put me back where I was 3 years ago. No wonder they are having trouble recruiting.

[MTOW]

I reckon 30% would just about put me back where I was 3 years ago.Maybe it should be 29.47%.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that - even if only Australians-of-a-certain-age (or seniority) within EK would understand my attempt at humour.)

Sadly, I think the EK pilots stand about as much chance of getting a pay rise in May anywhere near that about as much as the older Ozmates did the first time they asked for a pay rise of 29.47%.