Acknowledgment! Yes or No?

[Beeroclock]

More and more companies are now advertising for pilots but am i the only one that after you make the effort to apply you hear nothing back?? I must have now sent in excess of 200 emails and letters with a reply from maybe 4 or 5..

I have over 1600Hrs with 1000 multi and 670 turbine and it appears i cant even get a job back on a single :ugh: ... Im also an Ame so more than willing to help out around the place but still nothing!!

Is there really a need for them to advertise are they that short of guys/girls on file?? And what point do u have to not pack up and jump into the car and start knocking on doors?? Is there a point if your not sitting in there drive when they need someone you can get a job??

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Hi Beer,

You should put an add in the australian, listing essential criteria and see how many hundreds apply that do not come even near all the minimums.

Unless you meet all the essential criteria, dont expect anything.

Want some statistics, a company i worked for put an add on the AFAP website with essential criteria listed, tt 1500 plus a few other essentials.

Of the applicants, total of 246, those that did not meet them amounted to 239, 7 that did.

Of the 239, two did not even have a licence yet, and another 15 that did not have Australian licences.

Many companies do not have HR departments, CP always prioritise their workload, responding to pilots that apply for a position having not met all the minimums is very very far down the to-do list.

[gas-chamber]

LRT is spot-on. Chief Pilots have to prioritise and most only reply to the ones of immediate interest. Rude? Not these days. e.g. just try applying on-line and find you can't fill in one field - it all gets spat out. I recently toyed with the idea of getting back in to the game full time by applying to a foreign airline that actually stated in its website that pilots over age 60 were welcome. After filling in all the myriad fields of name, rank, serial number, blood type etc etc, got to date of birth (only just 61) and it told me to piss off - too old.
Do I write to them ? Nah - if they are that incompetent that they can't fix something so basic in a program they are not really short of pilots, or if they are they deserve to be. I don't need to waste the postage. Should I bull**** and make my age 59 and 11 months? Nah - never lied about age or experience yet, so why start now and anyway fakes usually get caught out.

Now, if you are at the other end of the job spectrum and if as your profile says, living in Sydney, you will NEVER get a job by writing letters. You have to throw a mattress in an old Kombi van and drive a very long way north and west and when you get to bumf..k nowhere, bail the local operator up in the pub, buy him a beer, promise to lick his airplanes clean every nite and you will eventually get that 1st job. Don't stop at the nice places en route because they are already full of wannabes and just-got-the-job-last-weekers .
'taint no other way.

[NAMPS]

That's it. Don't waste time on emails and nice letters. Get out there.

[DUXNUTZ]

What times are we looking at as competitive to get a job in Syd?

And don't give me that age commensurate with experience junk!

[VH-XXX]

We advertised on AFAP for a CFI position in Melbourne with "salary commesurate with experience" and got only 4 applicants. There were a couple more but they were from OS and seemingly just a blanket email. It's like there's a shortage of CFI's or someone who is able to become a CFI. Seems too that droves of instructors are moving over to RA-Aus as well and many of them focusing on this as it's as busy as hell.

[ContactMeNow]

When the boss and I were going through all the CVs when we were looking for a pilot, we narrowed the list of well over 100 applications down to around 15 or so. To "cull" the list even more we looked at the professionalism of the CV and email they sent us (yes thats right we hired over an email and a phone call conversation for a 1st job)

The biggest turn off was the fact that they emailed us with "non-professional" email addresses such as (just making them up, but words to this effect ) topgun007, jetcaptain, 747pilot, maverickpilot etc. Isnt it too hard to setup an NORMAL email address (such as your name) and use it for business or job searching??

Also, what is it with people attaching photos to their CV, mainly of them with the ole one armer over the prop (not so safe!) or them in their uniform near one of their flying school aeroplanes, or the best was one in a B747 cockpit with the good old two thumbs up! And before you ask, yes some chicks did apply with photos attached.

CMN :E

[Howard Hughes]

And before you ask, yes some chicks did apply with photos attached.
CMN :E
So they got the job then?;)

[402bitch]

Two Quick questions 1. how much of that time is command?
2. Was that gained with a cadetship/traineeship?

You need to get out there A.S.A.P, we bin resumes everyday. I'm surprised you heard back from anyone at all. If your time consists of Co-pilot or ICUS only you are more likely to be considered as a 500 hour pilot rather than a 1600 hour pilot. It sucks I know but that is the reality. :suspect:
Go for a drive and see the countryside. with the right attitude you will succeed :ok: . Your engineering backround may help you with companies like Golden Eagle in W.A.

Best of Luck

[ContactMeNow]

So they got the job then?;)

No, one did get a phone call asking for "more information" regarding her CV.

[disco_air]

or the best was one in a B747 cockpit with the good old two thumbs up!

HAHA I came across one with a baby photo, captains hat on, in a 747 cockpit. :D

...disco

[OpsNormal]

If you PM me a breakdown of your experience (types/command on each etc)and if near what my company needs I'll put it in front of the person that matters here if you like.

Make sure you supply a contact number and at least a first name....

Regards,

OpsN.;)

[the wizard of auz]

OOO, OOoo, Can I, can I????, (I'm thinking C90 here) :} :E

[OpsNormal]

OOO, OOoo, Can I, can I????, (I'm thinking C90 here) :} :E

C90? Don't have one of those yet.... ;) ;) :oh:

[iwillflyajet]

Hey opsnormal,
I passed 1800hrs the other day and 400 multi.
How are things going?
it got down to -38 three or four weeks ago. Great fun flying in the snow.:eek:

[Rabbit 1]

Applied via email for a position FO. Location east of Brisbane. Have several hundred hours on type. Reply was p*&^s off and if any vacancies we'll be in touch. Fellow visits tropical paradise with zero time on type, applies and gets the position I was advised to apply for. Moral of 'Johnny on the spot' works.

[Formally Known As]

No excuse for not replying to an application. Common courtesy calls for a response. If you addressed a person verbally, you would be looking for a response. Or are you expecting to be ignored. A no response in my view is looked on as "dumb insolence" weather verbal or written.
If these so called Chief pilot's say they haven't got time to provide a reply, then that's BS. Make time!!
A response is also a good indication a how a company values it's work force IMHO.
Yes I am aware that the no response bridgade is a cancer that is wide spread but that doesn't mean to say it is right.

[the wizard of auz]

Formally known as. You hit the nail on the head I think....... well, at least echo my thoughts exactly. Even a standard templated letter only takes a quick push of a button to print and send out.
I remember my first mail drop, a hundred or so years ago (well it feels like it) I sent out 60 letters, including self addressed stamped envelopes. I got 6 back.
I now know a lot more about the industry than I did back then, and am glad some never bothered and surprised some of the bigger, better ones didn't. I might add that of those that did, all but one are still in business and still desirable employers, and about a third of the ones that didn't reply have remained in business, and most carry with them the reputation of not being the people you would want to work for. I guess their attitude shows through their arrogance.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

I don't think you guys really understand how long it takes to respond to 240 odd applicants.

Wiz, i have seen the generic response letter sent out, guess what, a few of these guys rang and emailed telling how offended they where to receive a generic response, even though most of these guys were no where near meeting the essential criteria.

The big point i'm trying to make, is if you do not meet the minimums of the advertisement, you may be viewed as a time waster. Near all applications a company receives are generic resumes, near all do not address the selection critieria.

Suggestions:

A one page Resume, if the advertisement lists essential criteria, address them specifically in your introduction letter.

If the ad says "No Calls", respect that.

Do not use wedding photo's or similar.

If you were a cadet with lots of copilot time, do not try to candy coat it, focus on what you've done since, if thats nothing, do not be offended when your 1600 tt, 900 turbine copilot, finds you being considered with 3-500tt resumes.

Do not list WWF wrestling as an interest:O .

Your Weight on your resume is a good thing for GA Charter, this is a factor in employment, yeh yeh discrimination blah blah blah, good luck proving that one.

Do not candy coat anything, working as a drinks guy at pizza hut is not " a beverages manager for an international food chain ".

Email address, as said earlier, do not have immature email address such as "Buttmunch@hotmail" or "BaronKaptain@yahoo", just your name is fine.

If you have a trade or other skill, make it known, for example being a electrician will get your foot in the door before others.

Plan ahead, if you are going to Kununurra or similar, get a bus licence, first aid certificate, these will help you.

When you do get a start, do not ever ever ever work for free, Chief Pilots you talk too in the future will throw your resume in the bin for that offence.

Good Luck

[the wizard of auz]

LHRT. I would be far happier receiving the generic "thanks, we'll keep you in file for future reference" than nothing at all. Especially if the self addressed stamped envelope was sent with the resume.
Fair enough if the applicant doesn't meet the criteria for the position, maybe just a reply listing minimums and a generic thanks but no thanks type of letter, but some sort of response is warranted.
As was mentioned before, if you asked someone something face to face and they chose to ignore you, anyone would be quite offended.
Surely you don't get 240 resumes every day?. It takes less time to hit the print button than it does to read a resume. Good tips on the resume writing there,and I have read my fair share of them as well (and replied to them all).
I should say that I would only expect a response from a resume that came with a introductory letter. Just a resume in an envelope should be treated as a resource to be used if required or not.
I have had them show up without return addresses or contact details.
Anyone expecting a reply should at least take the trouble to include an introduction letter and a self addressed stamped envelope......Not a real big ask.

[Towering Q]

Just a query here Wiz, I assume you aren't referring to the resumes that turn up out of the blue?
You know the type, new pilot sending out resumes to every operator he/she can locate in the business directories.
LRT, some good tips there for the newbies.:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

Well, If it has an introduction letter and a self addressed, stamped envelope included. yes. If they send out a generic resume, and are not actually applying for an existing specific position, well its not hard to send a generic reply.
would you look blankly at and then ignore someone down the street if they spoke to you?.
Hey, just my two bobs worth. :)

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

One important point i missed, often when a resume hits a chief pilots desk, he will ring ole mate that you once worked for, because he did too, never burn a bridge, this is a tiny industry and everyone that hold a senior'ish position in a company has also been around and knows lots of people.

If you are sending out a good resume, meeting requirements etc etc and not getting too many bites, it might be time to change your referee's.

Use good referee's, such as ex-chief pilots that are now with CASA, CP's, Ops Managers etc etc.

Second Officers in the airlines or similar are generaly not a credible referee's in the eyes of a CP.

[the wizard of auz]

Thats good advice too. :} :eek:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Formally known as,
which would you consider more important, a Chief Pilot conducting base check / instrument renewals, ops manual ammendments, CASA audits, monitoring flight and duty records, his/her own line flying, liasing with maintenance, updating pilot files, monitoring moral, responding to NPRM's etc etc
or,
sorry boys, can't do your flight checks today, i've 30 or 40 300 hour instructors from bankstown that have applied for the metro check and training positions to reply too, they seem like a bunch of well balanced intellegent respectfull individuals, it's going to be hard to pick only one.
Yes an extreme example, but this is exactly what happens ( no disrespect intended to 300 hour instructors at YSBK ).

I feel it's silly to suggest that it is a Chief Pilot responsibility to respond to every pilot seeking a job, when the pilot generally shows little actual interest in his company: eg

Dear Sir,

It's been a life lone goal of mine to work for your company, what type of aeroplanes do you operate ?. I have seen that one first hand.

[the wizard of auz]

LHRT, OK, I'll throw my two cents worth in here again too. the job was advertised, and as Chief pilot, your going to go through the applicants CV's until you have a short list. now thats going to happen if your looking to employ someone anyway. compile your short list, and notify them of the need for an interview........ or whatever the procedure you use, and then shunt off the rest to the office girl and tell her to send the rest (well, those with the foresight to include a self addressed, stamped envelope) the generic" Dear applicant, your application has been unsuccessful" letters.
It happens in almost every other industry. why is ours so different?.
No extra workload for the CP and you need to go through some of them anyway, to fill the position.
Maybe even have the office girl/boy do the initial cull and get rid of the obvious non runners.

[Towering Q]

Well that makes it easy, I have never seen a resume containing a self addressed, stamped envelope. (Unless the office girl/boy is throwing them out on arrival.):uhoh:

[the wizard of auz]

Yeah..........forward thinking lot they turn out nowdays. :hmm:
I always supplied them with my applications..(I suspect the stamps were picked off the envelopes and used for other mail for about 80% of them).... and have had a few dropped into my mailbox as well.
I think mine was a verbal application to your mob though TQ :} :eek: ;) well, there was a bunch of verballing anyway. :}

[Formally Known As]

LHRT

In answer to your question. I strongly suggest you delegate duties as was mentioned previously. Very important part of management that as you can't do it all yourself. Prioritise is another one and responses are important.

Many employers seem to forget that the most important asset an aviation company has, apart from their A/C, are their pilots and engineers. At the moment they have a good choice of applicants to choose from as there is still a bit of a glut of crews. However, as in the late '70's in Europe for e.g., there was a major shortage of crews and people were being snapped up, on the pay roll with company cars offered etc., with only ATPL subjects passed and flight tests pending. Now that is dinkom. It could happen again, if it does, then the no response policey will come home to roost which could be the difference between a company surviving or going to the wall. Ive seen it happen and some applicants have very long memories. Treat people with respect, they may respect you.

I can accept the occasion when a major recruitment drive is under way within an organisation and the advertisement states for e.g. "Those applicants which do not meet our minimum requirements will not be contacted" or "only short listed canidates will be contacted" if a tidalwave of applications is expected. However as most applications these days are done on line, the very minimum one could expect is an auto response to imform an applicant his/her application has been received. Not hard to set up, just ask a ten year old.

[DeltaSix]

More and more companies are now advertising for pilots but am i the only one that after you make the effort to apply you hear nothing back?? I must have now sent in excess of 200 emails and letters with a reply from maybe 4 or 5..
I have over 1600Hrs with 1000 multi and 670 turbine and it appears i cant even get a job back on a single :ugh: ... Im also an Ame so more than willing to help out around the place but still nothing!!
Is there really a need for them to advertise are they that short of guys/girls on file?? And what point do u have to not pack up and jump into the car and start knocking on doors?? Is there a point if your not sitting in there drive when they need someone you can get a job??
G'day,
I know how you feel as I have almost the same experience as you have and could not get a response. I found out on one occasion that I was actually competing with my ex-CP for the same job.
Eventually got fed up and went to Asia. Didn't regret it one bit.
Definitely more jet and turbo jobs than Oz. More population more movement, means more airline flying ( where I am anyway ).
Easier said than done but I suggest to leave your nest. The only thing is, ( if at all possible) take your family with you if you already have one.
Goodluck,
D6

[gas-chamber]

Formerly Known As, and others who believe that it is rude not to respond to unsolicited communication - do you reply to all the spam emails you get every day?

Wannabes would do well to listen to the advice offered by Left handed Rocky - he obviously knows a lot about pilot selection processes and the life of a Chief Pilot. If I can add just one other offence to his list - never, ever go around the Chief Pilot to a Director or other more senior person with an offer he can't resist, like pay for training, work for free, or how you could set the check and training department on fire with your superior skills. Of all the offences, this is the one that will have you blacklisted.

Now, I must stop being rude and respond to all those Viagra spams that came in this morning.

[pilotads]

in regards to not meeting the mins for experience. I think alot of young pilots myself included think that mins advertised are usualy not the actual mins for the operation.

I've applied for a job where the fella that left the company left with the same experience i was applying with in everything from TT to IF but when I rang to see if they had recieved my CV I got a verbal arse kicking with the CP saying I had no where near the min experience?????

[bushy]

Operators have the right to employ, or not employ pilots as they see fit. They are paying the money, so they are free to choose. They probaly would choose not to employ someone who believes they have the right to that job. There are many other factors besides paper qualifications and logbook time.
Pilots also have the right to apply for or not apply for and to accept, or not accept the job.
No-one HAS to do anything.

[DeltaSix]

There are many other factors besides paper qualifications and logbook time.

Yeah, like two big BO#BS at the front... :}

[the wizard of auz]

No-one HAS to do anything.
I might have missed something here. Where is someone saying anyone has to do anything?.

[Formally Known As]

gas-chamber
"...Now, I must stop being rude and respond to all those Viagra spams that came in this morning."
Yes when I shop online I too get followup emails. Appears you are no exception as you obviously are a favoured online customer for viagra.
Fortunately I don't need to be chemically enhanced.:}