Pilot escapes Melbourne crash unhurt

[Apgrau]

"Tuesday Jan 2 11:37 AEDT
A pilot walked away unhurt after his light aircraft crashed into a ditch at Melbourne's Moorabbin Airport.
The pilot was the only person aboard a Cessna 172 training aircraft and was performing a touch-and-go circuit when the plane veered into a ditch shortly after 11am (AEDT), Moorabbin Airport manager Phil McConnell told AAP.
The aircraft was substantially damaged.
Fire and ambulance crews rushed to the scene, but the pilot was not injured, Mr McConnell said."
Hot off the press from ninemsn.com.au
Anybody know anything more about this?:confused:
I hope its not one of those brand new C-172S with a G1000...:ugh: :(
Sounds like a write-off to me.
Cheers

[Diatryma]

VH-EUC

Yes - it's not looking too good - but probably repairable.

Di :\

[Spelunker]

from the report it sounds like a repeat of the 2005 incident, where a C172R (from the same school) crashed into a ditch at threshold of 17L.

[Spodman]

Heard the results of this as I reported at BTO this morning, hope I didn't add to the trauma too much. First fire truck was arriving as I landed. He was a LOOONNNG way over to the left of 13L, and most of the way down the runway. I really wonder how he got there.

Glad to hear he's OK.

[bentleg]

He was a LOOONNNG way over to the left of 13L, and most of the way down the runway. I really wonder how he got there.

One can speculate - so here goes. BoM website says wind was gusting to 20 kts from SE at 1100 at Moorabbin. Landing in crosswind, crabbing into the wind, forgot to take the left rudder off after touchdown.

[QNIM]

Gday
Just arrived after the event, saw the result when carted back to the hangar, brand new all glass only 160 hrs enough to make you cry even though it’s a Cessna.
Cheers Q

[VH-XXX]

Pic from the paper... ouch!

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5349255,00.jpg

[Feather #3]

How about "didn't retract the flap after touchdown?"

G'day ;)

[Aerodynamisist]

I would have thought a 172 would still climb away from the runway with full flap (30 degs) particularly a new one with one pob. could just be a handling error or combination of little troubles. I understand GFS flys allot of hours every year, incidents will happen.

[bushy]

You say accidents will happen, as though this is normal and reasonable. It is not.
And the fancy glass obviously did not prevent this either.

[NAMPS]

I may be wrong but it seems to me to be a pretty major excursion from runway to ditch, looking at that pic.

[VH-XXX]

Perhaps the flaps were down a little far on the touch and go and when power was applied the nose probably pitched up at low speed. Saw this at Latrobe Valley that day when the guy did the not-so-merry-go-around (refer FS magazine) and died after stalling some distance from the runway. Probably just a poor sequencing of actions resulting in catastrophy. Something like that anyway... but agreed, this isn't the "norm" even if the school is "busy." I know of a school in Melb that's clocked up 5,500 ab-initio hours in 3 years with absolutely nil incidents. I'd be surprised if they were clocking up that many at GFS.

[Soulman]

I know of a school in Melb that's clocked up 5,500 ab-initio hours in 3 years with absolutely nil incidents. I'd be surprised if they were clocking up that many at GFS.

One only has to look at the flightline at MB to realise how much flying Generals are doing. Truth be known - they're probably doing more than 5500 over three years.

[AlJassmi]

from the report it sounds like a repeat of the 2005 incident, where a C172R (from the same school) crashed into a ditch at threshold of 17L.
Certainly a very similar result, though the 2005 one veered to the right during a touch and go on 35R while this one was off to the left from 13L.

[Sunfish]

The Latrobe Valley incident was not about a stuffed up go around or take off - it was about the infamous cessna seat unlocking and no stops in place.

[ABX]

I recently did a lot of research into GFS and the courses they run, including those done in conjunction with Swinburne Uni.

Some well founded assumptions:
Swin Dip course 20 students x 250 hours per year = 5000 hrs
Swin Deg course 30 students x 250 hours per year = 7500 hrs
QF Cadets course 20 cadets x 250 hours per year = 5000 hrs
HK ATC PPL (http://www.swin.edu.au/aviation/flyingtraining.htm) course 50 students x 50 (?) hours per year = 2500 hrs
Plus a further 180 graduates per year (http://www.swin.edu.au/aviation/flyingtraining.htm) x ? hours = Unspecified hrs

Total hours per year, well in excess of 20,000 hours per annum.

And that is for training hours only, not including charter, SAR etc., etc.

All figures taken from GFS printed and online media, see links above, my numbers are estimations only, the results may turn out to be higher.

Before you ask, I decided against GFS and am hoping to enrol in a local FTO's diploma (CPL/MECIR) course this year.

Would be interested to see if there is someone here who knows the actual numbers of training hours GFS does every year, but you don't get to own 10 or 15 brand new 172s with G1000 glass if you aren't putting through those kinds of numbers.

Standing by and waiting for correction.

[travmason]

I saw the remains of the 172 in the afternoon. Was the wind that bad at 11am local? At 1pm I went up doing my Taildragger endorsment and it was VRB at 5kts straight down 13. I don't remember it being gusty in the morning.

O, and it was the guys first or second solo flight. 13 at YMMB isn't used all that often and it's shorter by far than the typically used 17/35 combo. Maybe he floated a little more than he should have and paniced. ATSB will tell all in a few years (snipe).

[VH-XXX]

Sunfish,

I was there when it happened and helped in the effort to retrieve the gentleman doctor from his aircraft. I can assure you his seat stops were in working order. He later died upside down in the aircraft. His seat stops were retro-fitted and not the original Cessna type; however ATSB decided that it was probably the stops because they weren't "genuine."

[Tee Emm]

Sunfish and VH-XXX. That was indeed a sad ending at Latrobe Valley. The pilot was an acquaintance of mine and it was his own aircraft. Unfortunately he was not only very inexperienced but if I can word this delicately his training record varied significantly. He was not a medical doctor but was a carpet layer. Although ATSB hinted that his seat may have slipped back during the go-around, it was only a guess. He may have used improper go-around procedure for the Cessna 172 but again this could not be proved. Anecdotal evidence revealed after the accident that some flying instructors taught a generic personal go-around technique rather than the recommended procedure published in the various Cessna singles Pilot Information Manuals. Whether or not this was a factor in the accident sequence is not known.

Flight Safety Australia magazine later highlighted this in an article on the importance of instructors teaching manufacturer's recommended procedures rather than personal opinions.

[Spelunker]

Some well founded assumptions:
Swin Dip course 20 students x 250 hours per year = 5000 hrs
Swin Deg course 30 students x 250 hours per year = 7500 hrs
QF Cadets course 20 cadets x 250 hours per year = 5000 hrs
HK ATC PPL (http://www.swin.edu.au/aviation/flyingtraining.htm) course 50 students x 50 (?) hours per year = 2500 hrs
Plus a further 180 graduates per year (http://www.swin.edu.au/aviation/flyingtraining.htm) x ? hours = Unspecified hrs
Total hours per year, well in excess of 20,000 hours per annum.

Standing by and waiting for correction.

Here comes the correction ABX...

Looks like you didn't do very well with the "lot of research" you did.
GFS does the 150 hour CPL syllabus .SWIN DEG = 50 students, and Im sure the DIP is more than 20 people.

Furthermore, 1 student takes 3 years to complete their CPL, hence your "30 x 250 hours per year" is way way off. Your figure of 20,000 hours per annum is incorrect, and a more accurate estimate would be a third of your 20,000 hours.

Also, the link to the swin website is a little old, and I wouldn't believe all that it says.
"Conducting Flight Engineer to Pilot training conversion for Ansett Airlines" . I thought Ansett ceased flying in 2001


All the best with your future training,

Now Im standing by for any correction..


P.S. you forgot the China Airlines Cadets that GFS teaches

[VH-XXX]

Sorry about that, when the Law Enforcement Officer pulled out his licence he said Doctor; I have no idea why.

Indeed it was a sad day and definitely highlights the importance of currency and procedure.

I guess it can happen that people get a little messed up through sequences and it is possible for a student to fall through the cracks especially when there are a lot of them. As we all know there are so many things that change on every takeoff and landing as they are never the same. Luckily the 172/182's are 'relatively' forgiving when things go wrong.

[jetbrett]

Let me have a crack at the amount of hours GFS (MB only) does in a year. This is a bit more accurate than the last figure that got tossed around.

Tafe: 10 students. 100 hours per year. 2 year course. =1000
Uni: 40 students. 70 hours per year. 3 or 4 year course = 2800
Qantas Cadets. 8 students. 200 hours year. = 1600
China Airlines Cadets: 20 students. 150 hours year (roughly) = 3000
Vietnam Airlines Cadets: 20 students. 150 hours year = 3000
Private and/or Other : 500 hours per year.

Total: 11900. I am not defending anyone here, I just wanted a go at the GFS hours per year game. Had Fun while it lasted. Someone may have the actual figures.

[ABX]

Spelunker,

Looks like my research was ok after all. However yesterday, when I was trying to pull info from the web, the GFS site was not responding so I had to drag those figures from the (old) Swinburne site, they may indeed be dated. (I too saw the AN reference.)

When I was guessing the number of training hours GFS might do per annum, I nearly made the same mistake that you (& jetbrett) both did:

A certain course might have 30-40 people enrolling per year, but there will still be years 2 and 3 still completing their training at the same time as the newbies are starting their first year, therefore GFS will need to fly the equivalent of the entire course syllabus per year.

So, my spelean friend, by your own numbers, the bare minimum training hours GFS do per year is 10,500 however that only includes the Swinburne courses. I am still confident that all their other courses combined will quickly add up to my original estimate of 20K+ hours.

Same for you jetbrett, by your own numbers the training hours would be 21,300. Yet in reality I think it would be higher as your allowance for this:
Private and/or Other : 500 hours per year.
is way too low, do you think that they only train 3 or 4 private trainees per year? Come on.

So, let round three of the "GFS hours per year game" now begin.

I would be genuinely interested to hear from someone who works/worked/trained at GFS MB (we know you're reading this) to find out if our estimates are in the ball park.

Standing by for correction.:ok:

ABX

[scrambler]

5 000 hrs, 10 000 hrs, 20 000 hrs
It is still a sausage factory.

[Spelunker]

oops, I stand corrected.

You are right about the figures ABX. But what do you expect? I wrote my reply at 3am, and thats no time for mental arithmetic :)

I'd say jetbrett's figures are in the ball park. From the photos he posted in the "more photos" thread, I'd say he is/was a student.

[ABX]

My turn for a late night tonight ...:zzz:

I'd love to know for sure how many hours they really do.

I do tend to agree with scrambler though, that is the main reason I chose against them, also some posts on the Tailwheel Vs. Tricycle thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256291) regarding getting experienced instructors to teach you.


I'd say jetbrett's figures are in the ball park. From the photos he posted in the "more photos" thread, I'd say he is/was a student.


I thought that when I saw them his pix too.

Are you still an active cave man (or woman) Spelunker, or did your monika come from a previous life?

Cheers,

ABX

[ABX]

Does anyone know when the accident report or preliminary finding will be released?

Also, did they decide to repair their shiny new C172 or sell it off?

Cheers

[Sunfish]

I think I heard the other day that it is a write off, but that may just be gossip.

If the accident/incident happened on 13L with a southeasterly, I could easily understand how something like this could happen.

In addition to the usual lift/sink on short final you get a little turbulence just before you set down from the warehouses to the left. If perhaps you were a little fast as well, you might easily find yourself in a bounce/float heading anywhere but where you should be heading. Done it myself when I was new to Cessna's....but the aircraft was repaired:}

Hope the only damage is to pocketbook and he/she gets back in the saddle.

[training wheels]

If the accident/incident happened on 13L with a southeasterly, I could easily understand how something like this could happen.
In addition to the usual lift/sink on short final you get a little turbulence just before you set down from the warehouses to the left.

It's been a while since I've flown from MB, but aren't those warehouses you refer to at the other end of the field (prior to d/w threshold of RWY 35 ?)

Sad to hear that the C172 was a write off ... it makes you wonder how on earth did they get that QF1 744 (which ran off the runway at BKK) flying again.

[bentleg]

it makes you wonder how on earth did they get that QF1 744 (which ran off the runway at BKK) flying again

This is going off topic. The Bangkok event would have cost heaps. It may have been important for insurance and other reasons for QF to fix it and thereby avoid a hull writeoff (and the increased premiums and reputation damage that could follow).

[Diatryma]

I think I heard the other day that it is a write off, but that may just be gossip.

Just gossip.

It is advertised in today's Australian and February edition of Aviation Trader.

Di ;)