Adam Air B737-400 fatal crash January 2007

[Saintsman]

Adam Air 737 missing in Indonesia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6222629.stm

Not a good start to the new year I'm afraid.

[Melax]

Interesting wikipedia link relating to the state of the airline industry in the area.
http://bialoglowy.********.com/2006/02/fear-factor-flying-in-indonesia.html

[Phil Space]

Not looking good
....this from REUTERS
JAKARTA, Jan 1 (Reuters) - Contact was lost on Monday with an Adam Air passenger plane flying from Surabaya on Java island to Manado on Sulawesi with 96 passengers and six crew on board, a transport ministry official told Elshinta news radio.
Tatang Ikhsan, director general of air transport at the ministry, said the plane was a Boeing 737-400 and the flight originated in Jakarta with a stop in Surabaya.
It left Surabaya at 1 p.m. (0600 GMT) and was scheduled to land just over two hours later in Manado in North Sulawesi.
Contact was lost when the plane was at an altitude of 35,000 feet, about one hour before it was due to land, Ikhsan said.
This from Associated Press:
Associated Press
January 1, 2007
JAKARTA, Indonesia — A commercial Adam Air passenger plane with more than 100 people onboard lost contact with flight controllers Monday on flight between Indonesia's Java and Sulawesi islands, officials said.
Adam Air flight KI-574 was still missing more than five hours after the scheduled arrival time.
A senior Transport Ministry official, Ichsan Tatang, said aviation authorities were gathering information from other flights which "might have picked up the plane's distress signal."
Adam Air's chief executive, Gunawan Suherman, confirmed to The Associated Press that controllers had lost contact with Adam Air flight KI-574.
The plane left Surabaya in East Java at 1 p.m. local time on a two-hour flight to Manado on the northern tip of Sulawesi island, Tatang said.
An Indonesian air traffic controller told Metro TV the plane hit "very bad" weather and may have run out of fuel because, if still airborne, it would be "over its (fuel) limit."
"This is an emergency," Bhabr, who like many Indonesians uses one name, told the broadcaster.
The missing plane is a Boeing 737-400, carrying six crew and 96 passengers, including 11 children, Indonesia's El-Shinta radio reported.
It's last contact with flight controllers was at 2:07 p.m. near southern Sulawesi, Tatang said, adding that it only had enough fuel for a four-hour flight.
Transport Minister Hatta Radjasa confirmed the plane had lost contact, but could provide no more details.
Adam Air, a privately owned low-cost airline, began operations in Indonesia several years ago and most of its flights are domestic.
Last year, one of its jetliners lost all communication and navigation systems for four hours during a flight between the Indonesian capital Jakarta and Makassar on Sulawesi Island forcing the pilot to make an emergency landing.
The transport minister said at the time he would investigate.

From Wikipedia
Adam Air was founded in 2002 by Mr Agung Laksono, a well-known Indonesian businessman and politician, and Mrs Sandra Ang.

The airline was established in 2003 and started operations on 19 December 2003 with 2 Boeing 737 aircraft leased from GE Capital Aviation Services. It is entirely owned by and named after Adam Adhitya Suherman, the Chief Executive of the company (?? inconsistency here with the statement that Adam Air was founded by Mr Agung Laksono and Mrs. Sandra Ang. Do they sell the shares to Adam Adhitya Suherman? or what?).

On 1 January 2007 one of the fleet's 737-400 aircraft, carrying 96 passengers and 6 crew. Flight KI-574 lost contact with air traffic control flying between the islands of Java and Sulawesi in Indonesia.

[alexmcfire]

Rumored to be this aircraft, http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b737-24070.htm

[Phil Space]

History of the aircraft
Delivery Date Operator Registration Remark
26/01/1989 Dan-Air London G-BNNL lsd ILFC
07/11/1992 British Airways G-BNNL
19/03/1995 GB Airways G-BNNL lsd ILFC
06/04/2001 National Jets Italy G-BNNL
26/02/2002 WFBN N112TR
04/03/2002 Air One EI-CXH
11/12/2002 JAT YU-AOO ret to ILFC 10/2005
01/12/2005 AdamAir PK-KKW

[GroundScot]

Latest from Jakarta is that wreakage has now been found just outside Monado - 96 souls on board

sad news

[Blues&twos]

Just reported by BBC that a distress call was received before contact lost, no further details relating to nature of distress call.

[Phil Space]

Very bad weather here over the last few days.

Looks like it hit a thunderstorm.

[bekolblockage]

Looks like it was only a matter of time.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082&highlight=adamair
Sad news indeed.

[Phil Space]

Just as well they are not flying 747's with cargo out of Africa via a UK ofice then:eek:

[Phil Space]

latest here

An Indonesia military airport official says a passenger plane missing for several hours probably crashed.
Rescue teams have been dispatched to look for the Adam Air flight with more than 100 people on board.
It sent out a distress signal in bad weather. The military airport chief in the region says the type of signal sent by the plane before it went missing indicated - in his words - "a big chance it had an accident or a crash."
Officials don't know if the plane went down in the sea, or on land. The Navy has been contacted about a possible sea rescue operation.
An Indonesian passenger plane carrying 102 people disappeared in stormy weather on Monday, and rescue teams were sent to search in the area where the aircraft sent out a distress signal.

Transport Minister Hatta Radjasa said a radio communication was picked up over central Sulawesi, an major island in the Indonesian archipelago about 470 miles from the Adam Air flight's destination. He said emergency crews were on their way to search for survivors.

"Let's hope the plane had an emergency landing," he told El-Shinta radio.

Eddy Suyanto, military airport chief in South Sulawesi, said the distress signal indicated "a big chance it had an accident or a crash."

Air traffic lost contact with flight KI-574 while it was flying at 35,000 feet from Indonesia's main island of Java to Sulawesi. It was still missing more than six hours after its scheduled arrival.

The plane - on a two-hour flight from East Java to Manado, on Sulawesi's northern tip - carried six crew and 96 passengers, including 11 children, Indonesia's El-Shinta radio reported.

Weeks of seasonal rains and high winds in Indonesia have caused several deadly floods, landslides and maritime accidents, including the sinking of a ferry in the Java Sea on Friday that has left dozens dead and some 400 still missing. That accident was hundreds of miles from the area where the Adam Air plane disappeared.

An Indonesian air traffic controller told Metro TV the plane hit "very bad" weather and may have run out of fuel because, if still airborne, it would be "over its (fuel) limit."

"This is an emergency," Bhabr, who like many Indonesians uses one name, told the broadcaster.

Adam Air, a privately owned low-cost airline, began operations in Indonesia several years ago and most of its flights are domestic. Last year, one of its jetliners lost all communication and navigation systems for four hours during a flight between the Indonesian capital Jakarta and Makassar on Sulawesi Island, forcing the pilot to make an emergency landing.

[PK-KAR]

latest:
It has crashed... around Rantepao Area... mountaineous area. Or in the sea... Air Force will confirm tomorrow with a search. Location is about 1hr normal cruise time away from Manado.
96 pax, 6 crew.
The Handling of this accident is shocking...
Relatives in Manado were told flight was cancelled and gave no further details, so they went home.
Relatives in Surabaya went to the airport to check what they saw in the news, and they were told it was delayed, and went home.
Then, came the confirmation from the DGAC that it was missing.
Adam Air in Manado is silent, making the relatives angry... Adam Air Manado was refusing to release the names of the passengers.
Adam Air Surabaya is suspected of intimidating the relatives into silence. The press has been intimidated and prevented from getting any information.
Press conference in Jakarta was a total joke.
Looks like they'll blame the pilot and/or weather, regardless of what the truth is.
Upon news that the aircraft was missing, Adam Air closed all of its offices, leaving a few to handle the flights still not due in... except for Manado. Surabaya ticket office was closed quite early.
Busy afternoon thanks to this... and bad start for the year...
PK-KAR

[RoyHudd]

Getting to be a veritable blood-bath. Extreme criticism, but just take a look at the country's safety record...atrocious. Who is responsible? Indo regulatory authorities/IATA? There is clearly a big problem with standards there, and people are losing their lives.
Please can somebody with responsibility offer a response. I fly there frequently, and I can say with knowledge and conviction that, Garuda aside, the local carriers of this huge country are downright dangerous. Pick any, and review their record, and compare to other countries in the region.

[Longtimer]

Getting to be a veritable blood-bath. Extreme criticism, but just take a look at the country's safety record...atrocious. Who is responsible? Indo regulatory authorities/IATA? There is clearly a big problem with standards there, and people are losing their lives.
Please can somebody with responsibility offer a response. I fly there frequently, and I can say with knowledge and conviction that, Garuda aside, the local carriers of this huge country are downright dangerous. Pick any, and review their record, and compare to other countries in the region.
IATA has no regulatory authority over aircraft operations. Perhaps you meant ICAO but even then the Licencing authority of the operating country usually has the last word (at least over operations within their country)

[roadrunna]

Getting to be a veritable blood-bath. Extreme criticism, but just take a look at the country's safety record...atrocious. Who is responsible? Indo regulatory authorities/IATA? There is clearly a big problem with standards there, and people are losing their lives.
Please can somebody with responsibility offer a response. I fly there frequently, and I can say with knowledge and conviction that, Garuda aside, the local carriers of this huge country are downright dangerous. Pick any, and review their record, and compare to other countries in the region.

I fly to Manado occasionally and what you say is true. I caught a flight from Singapore to Manado back in 2001, flight MI274 ( Silkair ) and due to poor visibility we were not able to land, after the 4th or 5th failed approach the pilot decided to divert to Hassanudin, Makassar in South Sulawesi as we were running low on fuel.

Upon arriving we were given a choice to stay in Makassar for the night or board a 737/Mandala airlines and arrive in Manado the same night. The cockpit door was not closed and the Captain occasionally leant over his seat to talk to one of the female flight attendants standing in the isle, this went on for about 40 minutes in between taking off and landing. The most surprising thing was that the other passengers did not seem disturbed about it which seems to indicate that this happens frequently.

[Rollingthunder]

If the reports have been correct, the airline's behavior has been truely reprehensible. Run away, run away and hide seems to be their mission statement. Abandoning their responsibilites to the relatives is just inexcuseable. Some management should not be allowed to operate airlines, period. Especially in third world countries.

[View From The Ground]

This is a tragic accident, and my sympathies go out to all the families of those involved. The reality of our current world is that there are places where standards are different...and these may be for a number of reasons, including the poverty within that country. We should all assess our own risks and make choices based upon that, for example if I choose to go to an Indonesian nightclub I do so knowing that it is unlikely the safety standards are up to those in the UK, and I would scope out the exits more carefully as a result. Of course many of those involved will not have been in the position to make that judgement, so what is the solution? I do not have an answer to that, however I do believe we must not make the mistake of forcing our own values on those of other countries. For example in Thailand many times you will see 4 or 5 people on one motorcycle, simply they have no option, of course such behaviour would not be accepted or tolerated in the UK or US. As for the Mandala Airlines Captain sounds like a non issue not all countries enforce the same draconian cockpit door regs and if it is not in the critical stages of flight why not talk to a Flight Attendant? Wasn't there a USAir crew some years ago who let a cabin crew member sit on their lap for landing? A bit of a ramble I know but in summary economic realities do apply to aviation and once again sympathies to the families concerned

[roadrunna]

As for the Mandala Airlines Captain sounds like a non issue not all countries enforce the same draconian cockpit door regs and if it is not in the critical stages of flight why not talk to a Flight Attendant?

When you consider it was just after the 911 attacks, you would at least hope that some door reg's would have been enforced. Besides that, it just doesn't look right to see a pilot slouching over the back of his seat so casually.

[AerocatS2A]

When you consider it was just after the 911 attacks, you would at least hope that some door reg's would have been enforced. Besides that, it just doesn't look right to see a pilot slouching over the back of his seat so casually.
What do you expect him to be doing? Leaning forward tensely surveying the sky ahead?

[mini]

Adamair have published a list of PAX on their website. They have also posted the GR given by Changri radar as last record of the flight - seems to be deep ocean.

[G-CPTN]

Reuters now reporting sighting of the missing aircraft 'in the mountains of Sulawasi'.

[ZeeDoktor]

Looks as if weather might indeed have been a factor. Check out the satellite image that's been put up on http://www.openatc.com

Cheers

[roadrunna]

Sad news. According to SMH the wreckage was found, there are no survivors and there are bodies everywhere.

RIP.

[Speedpig]

Latest from BBC website http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6223825.stm

A very sad start to the New Year RIP all onboard and condolences to all families

[airsupport]

Very sad indeed.

However according to Skynews there are some survivors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Plane wreckage found


Search teams have found the wreckage of a Boeing 737 that went missing in wild weather over Indonesia.

An Indonesian official has told a local radio station at least 90 people have been killed, while the remaining 12 on board survived.

He said the plane was 'destroyed' and had crashed in a mountainous region in west Sulawesi province.

The plane was carrying 102 people, including 11 children, when it sent out two distress signals while flying from Surabaya on the island of Java to Manado on Sulawesi.

The Surabaya airport duty manager says there were no technical problems with the plane when it took off.

The area north of east Java is subject to violent storms, experiencing high winds since last weekend.

The Department of Foreign Affairs is trying to determine whether any Australians were onboard.

[JJflyer]

Anyone... Name of the crew please. I cant get a hold of a friend of mine on any number nor email and he flies the -200's lately from Surabaya.

[Self Loading Freight]

JJFlyer -

I've PM'd you with that info.

R

[flyingcrazy]

List of Crew and Pax are published on their website: http://www.flyadamair.com/



A satellite image (01Jan07 0733UTC) can be found also here:
http://www.nea.gov.sg/cms/mss/jpg/ai07.jpg


Very sad start indeed and my deepest condolences to all families

FC

[visibility3miles]

Twelve survive plane crash in Indonesia
By John Aglionby in Jakarta
Published: January 2 2007 04:23 | Last updated: January 2 2007 04:23
Rescue teams on Tuesday morning were struggling to evacuate the 12 survivors of a plane crash from the remote, rugged mountains on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi.

Authorities said the other 90 people on board the Adam Air flight which crashed in bad weather on Monday afternoon in Palewali district, West Sulawesi province, had died. Smouldering wreckage and corpses were strewn across “quite a wide area”, Ali Bahal, the district chief, told local radio.

“The latest reports from the crash site that we’ve received are that 12 people survived,” Capt. Hartono, an Adam Air official, told the Financial Times. “They’re in a bad condition and we’re trying to evacuate them as soon as possible. But the weather is too bad for helicopters to land so we’re probably going to have to take them out by land.”

Rescuers reached the crash site, some 250km north of Makassar, the main city in southern Sulawesi, at 6am on Tuesday. Access to the site was restricted to two-wheel vehicles and was out of mobile phone range. Capt. Hartono said it would take at least five hours to get the survivors to hospital...

...Capt Hartono said the plane’s black box had yet to be found and that it was too early to determine the precise cause of the crash...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0c99e62a-9a18-11db-8b6d-0000779e2340.html

[RoyHudd]

View from the Ground....what a feeble politically correct posting.

In the field of aviation, the highest safety values must be IMPOSED on all countries. International air travel covers almost all countries. We are not talking about motor scooters in Thailand. Or politics. THis is about professional standards, and their regulation.

Pprune.org is a professional pilot's forum. Not an open forum for folk with opinions but no expertise. Evacuate! Evacuate! Unfasten Your Seat Belt and Get Out!:=

Incidentally, IATA make much of their income from their well-respected safety audits and monitoring of most intenational carriers. They are an important and relevant body in the field of Air Safety. As indeed are ICAO.

[alexmcfire]

Passengerlist can be found here, http://www.flyadamair.com/info/admin/fullnews.php?id=1
It´s claimed that 3 of the passengers where US citizens, the rest seem to be
Indonesian? Crews name can also be found on the homepage.
May the unfortunate ones rest in peace.....:{

[Capt.KAOS]

Seems that 12 people survived the crash, inc.the pilot, which is not confirmed yet.

[Raider1]

Australian TV news reporting that there are 12 survivors. A small percentage of total pax but good news that at least some survived.

[MrBernoulli]

Survivors? Wow, thats amazing.

I just hope that this isn't one of those cases where a passenger aircraft has continued to operate without important bits of kit - like serviceable weather radar. Weather around that part of the world can be sudden and vicious.

Reminds me of the time I was told to operate from Europe to Malaysia via Sri Lanka in a military transport jet. It didn't have an APU so I asked if it was possible to get a completely serviceable jet, even if it meant a delay. Alternative offererd had u/s weather radar. As it was monsoon season I opted for the original aircraft. The buffoons who allocate these things don't have a bloody clue ........... :ugh:

[mainwheel]

Mr B,

Lets wait for the facts.

Your attitude towards this sux.

[hetfield]

Not too much fuel?

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

.. assuming the report of survivors is correct, one might hypothesize slow speed, minimal descent rate just prior to ground contact!
.
.. weather … engines .. ??
.
.. very sad start to 2007 :(

[Skylion]

Times this morning has morphed the 737 into a 747-400. So much for the former "top people's paper".

[MrBernoulli]

mainwheel,

You missed the point I think! Yes, there is a lot of water to go under the bridge yet so it will be some time before we know, with any clarity, what happened.

How you surmise a problem with my attitude is interesting. All I said was what I hoped the accident WASN'T the result of. The rest is purely a personal illustration.

And it is 'sucks', by the way .......

[desmotronic]

SBS news tonight reported the aircraft had in fact not been found and previous reports were in error.

[London legend]

Yep, here's the wire...

MAKASSAR, Indonesia, Jan 2 (Reuters) - An Indonesian air
force official said on Tuesday reports that an airliner with
102 people on board had been found on Sulawesi island were
wrong, and that the plane was still missing.
Officials had earlier said that wreckage of the Adam Air
plane had been found after it had crashed into the mountains in
heavy rain. There were reports 12 people had survived the
crash.
"The location has not been found. We apologise that the
news that we conveyed was not true," said First Air Marshal
Eddy Suyanto, commander of Hasanuddin air base in Makassar.
The Adam Air plane lost contact with the ground on Monday
about an hour before it was due to land in Manado in North
Sulawesi, the transport ministry said.
There were 96 passengers and six crew on board the plane. A
copy of the plane's manifest showed three passengers as
non-Indonesians. The United States embassy in Jakarta confirmed
they were Americans.
Suyanto earlier told Radio Elshinta an air force plane had
spotted the wreckage of the Boeing 737-400.
"The plane was found around 20 km (12 miles) from Polewali
(town) in the mountains. The weather is clear," Suyanto had
said.
Air travel in Indonesia, home to 220 million people, has
grown substantially since the liberalisation of the airline
industry after the Asian financial crisis in the late 1990s,
which enabled privately owned budget airlines to operate.
(With additional reporting by Jerry Norton, Telly Nathalia,
Achmad Sukarsono, Mita Valina Liem and Muara Makarim in
JAKARTA)

[DX Wombat]

This is horrendous. What an appalling thing for the relatives who may have had a tiny spark of hope dashed again. How is it possible to identify something as large as the site is likely to be then decide you were wrong having apparently seen "smouldering wreckage and corpses strewn over 'quite a wide area'"? Why are two different versions of the weather being given? For the sake of all the families involved I hope they find them soon.

[StudentInDebt]

You've never been to Indonesia have you Wombat. Such confusion, and grandstanding is quite common.

[DEXY]

Absolutely terrible news and my thoughts are with those who have lost friends and family.

I just wish I could say that I'm suprised by these kind of events. I am spending the winter based in Indonesia and have been shocked by the casual attitude towards safety. It seems that there is a totally different safety culture in Indonesia - travelling by air, sea or road is a nerve-wracking experience. In just one week I have seen a Lion Air aircraft in a less than serviceable state on the grass in Sulawesi and witnessed an Adam Air coming within feet of an over-run in Sumatra.

Indonesia is not a wealthy country, it is rife with corruption at every level and suffers from some fairly extreme weather conditions. These factors may explain (if not excuse) the high accident rate, but what needs to change above all else is their attitude. Even if they use the very latest aircraft, invest in world-class Air Traffic Control, make every runway 12000ft long with a precision approach accidents will still happen as long as life is considered cheap.

[DX Wombat]

No, SID, I haven't and the more I hear and read the less I am inclined to visit there which is probably a bit sad as there are, no doubt, many interesting places to see. It goes without saying that I don't believe all the Indonesian people to be so inept and callous as those dealing with the situation appear to be. A very, very sad situation.

[Capt.KAOS]

Seems that 12 people survived the crash, inc.the pilot, which is not confirmed yet.Most unfortunately this news proved to be premature and has been retracted. My sincere apologies to all involved.

[DX Wombat]

Capt.Kaos, I'm quite sure nobody here blames you for that bit of misinformation. I saw it first on my ISP's website. They, presumably, got it from a reputable source. It is the misinformation dispensed by those most closely involved which is deplorable, NOT the bringing in good faith of potentially good news.

[UNCTUOUS]

It never made sense to me that they'd have crashed into a peak on Sulawesi if they were overflying for Manado at Flight Level 350.
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/maps/world/indo.msg.plane/popup.indonesia.java.gif

[Another Number]

It never made sense to me that they'd have crashed into a peak on Sulawesi if they were overflying for Manado at Flight Level 350.
My guess is that they EITHER took a large drink of heavy precipitation and lost both engines (just like’s happened a number of times before with the 732) OR Alternatively that they had an upset as they were very very near “coffin corner” for a 737-400 (i.e. close to the high altitude stalling speed at FL350). That’s a very high cruising altitude for a loaded 737-400 less than halfway along their 2 hour route of flight. There could also have been some orographic wave turbulence over the mountains of Sulawesi (depending upon wind direction at the various levels).
If so, the aircraft may have stalled and spun in sudden severe turbulence and may now be somewhere on land/in the ocean – having broken up during recovery efforts at high speeds/g on the way down. This latter guess gets my confident vote for a more likely cause. At FL350 the precipitation shouldn’t be as heavy as at lower/medium levels. However turbulence in and around thunderstorms, even without the orographic influence of high terrain, can be severe. That area has had lots of very nasty ITCZ related weather just lately (ferry sinking etc).


Having seen the satellite image posted at the start of the thread, given the scenario of the pilots being ordered "yes, you are going over that, and thats right we've given you minimum fuel", and the characteristics over storm cells, I assumed that down over ocean was more likely.

Regards the "12" survivors in mountainous crash site, captain's mobile ringing, footage of rather un-mountainous site ... then complete 360 reversal on that "story" ... we are talking about Indonesia, after all. :(

[visibility3miles]

My apologies for having quoted a press report about 12 survivors in a remote location. Although I realize that the press and everyone else can confuse facts in the aftermath of a sudden disaster, this is beyond what I expected.

My sympathies and condolences to the friends and families of those lost.

[Kato747]

As of 1131Z 2 Jan. The Jakarta Post states the ADAMAIR flight has NOT yet been found.

see: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20070102203148&irec=0

Sorry for any raised hopes.:rolleyes:

[PK-KAR]

Geez, my phone's been ringing too many times since yesterday... This whole thing is going crazy down here!

Guys, beware, there's heaps of misinformation on this accident.
As unsafe as Adam Air is, I know people who work(ed) there and no, they do not play with fuel. The aircraft state however, is a different story. Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary.

I do not think the aircraft didn't have enough fuel, the aircraft was fueled for 4 hrs flying (destination + alternate + holding)... the aircraft has been light enough because of the lack in cargo between Xmas and New Year's.

The current scandal is that the plane hasn't been found and that the authorities have been led on a wild goose chase by someone... if the owners are involved in the mis/disinfo, I wouldn't be surprised. This is an airline that had played hide-and-seek with the regulators earlier last year when one 733 went 400NM off course thanks to shoddy maintenance on the IRS.

The NTSC's go-team are knackered tonight thanks to that goose chase. They're out of ideas.

I fear this is actually a simple repeat of last year's Nav error, but this time, luck ran out, the plane descended without Navaid IRS corrections to the FMC, and probably ended up >100NM from the intended destination, and ended up ditching somewhere north of Sulawesi. It was 1st Jan, I doubt the HF freqs were manned...

The NTSC is now considering that as an explanation... somehow...

God Bless those on board.

PK-KAR

[PK-KAR]

Unbelieveable huh? Well, it happened! And one wouldn't think it was possible to cover up such a mess, well, they did it, albeit costly and not all were willing to shut up.
And they somehow prevented the accident investigators from reaching the aircraft before it was flown (and no one knows who authorized the ferry flight other than saying "classified") to somewhere else for repairs...
PK-KAR


For Background reading

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082

[flash8]

>when one 733 went 400NM off course thanks to shoddy maintenance on the IRS.
You mean both IRS? Whats the DME situation like down there?

[CargoOne]

What's about ELT? Are they mandatory in Indonesia?

[lanciaspezzata]

Lots of the reports on this calamitous event quote that the aircraft was lost from ATC radar. Do they have ATC radar based on the southern end of Sulawesi? Do they, in fact, have chain coverage of the intended flightpath of the aircraft?
It would appear that they don't. Conversely, if radar coverage does exist, some critical part would appear to have been unserviceable at the time of the disappearance. If all radar had been serviceable then surely the ATC responsible would have been able to more accurately pinpoint the track and point at which the aircraft went missing off screens?

[In trim]

My thoughts and condolences to all the families involved as a result of this disaster.

It is obviously too early to start apportioning cause or blame, and this may be unrelated to the apparently awful safety culture which PH-KAR has so clearly highlighted in this and the separate post. I only hope the problems he describes do not get in the way of the truth coming out, and ideally, whether related or not, that the investigation highlights some of the practices which have been described so as to make aviation in that area perhaps just a little bit safer!


RIP.

[AN2 Driver]

If the registration is correct, its PK-KKW

Started out with DANAIR, delivered 1/89, G-BNNL
Went to GB Airways and BA
Then onto JAT as YU-AOO. Saw her a few times in ZRH with that register.

What a madness. I hope they find her and those on board soon.....

Best regards
AN2 Driver

[PK-KAR]

As far as I know, radar coverage on the island only goes for the southern part of the island... about 100 - 150NM surrounding Makassar... and thats it.

Last contact was radial 340 at 100NM... so, it might not have been lost, but simply left the radar coverage area...

PK-KAR

[Willie Everlearn]

PK-KAR
"Crews have been intimidated into accepting aircraft that shouldn't fly, those who has tried to leave, have been sued to oblivion... The owners of the airline, what they'd go to to get what they want, is scary.":confused:
While I understand and appreciate your comments about possible intimidation 'tactics', if it applies in this case, one must bear in mind that the regulations (even in Indonesia) do not allow for this or any other crew to accept or operate an aircraft that is not Airworthy. := It's part and parcel of your responsibility as PIC. It's up to the company to maintain its' fleet of aircraft to that standard. So, if you clearly understand your responsibility under the regs, you can't be intimidated into accepting an aircraft that shouldn't fly. Even in Indonesia. It IS that simple.:ugh:
If you aren't prepared to lose your job for doing your job when you know your company operates this way, then how can any responsible crew accept the kind of intimidation you're suggesting from management which might result in this kind of (yet to be determined) accident? What decision would you have made??? (...after the fact, of course) :confused:
How difficult would a wrongful dismissal lawsuit award in favor of the PIC if the company, as it were, decided to sue the crew for not operating or accepting an unsafe aircraft??? What you're suggesting here MAY be a company culture issue as much as it MAY be a potential safety issue if what you're implying is that the crew MAY have been intimidated by the big bosses to operate with deficiencies that MAY have been unacceptable in signing the aircraft out as airworthy.
Whether you lose or will lose your job is a matter of litigation on a separate day. You have a greater responsibility of care under the law, to yourelf and your passengers. Correct? :ok:
If this crew did not operate within the confines of Indonesian air law and gave into 'intimidation' then this one MAY very well end up as Pilot Error.
(please note the number of "ifs" and "mays" in my post)
all the best for the New Year,
Willie :ok:

[barit1]

If you are lucky enough to draw an impartial judge, all you are out is legal expenses.

But if your judge is a cousin of the airline owner...:ugh:

[bomarc]

cost of flying:

so, if we could verify that low cost carriers around the world are less safe than high cost carriers, the passengers would make their choice and take their chance.

but there are crashes involving high cost carriers.

we are coming to a huge changing of the guard in the US in terms of senior pilots and retirement.

I wonder how things will shake out here, let alone in the aviation third world.

[ZeeDoktor]

A piece of high altitude enroute chart showing the various locations of interest: http://www.openatc.com/images/adamairmap.png

[MELT]

Cargo One
Yes, the aircraft would normally have had an ELT, (Automatic Fxed) and maybe also a couple of Survival ELTs on board.
However it is possible that the ELT may not have transmitted for one of several reasons; ELT submerged in water, co-axial connection to external antenna or external antenna broken in crash, location of ELT in certain mountainous terrain.

[PK-KAR]

Willie,
Sure, the ideal is as what you said... but most unfortunately, here, those are just... ideals... in particular regarding Adam Air.

The 17 pilots that were sued had a hell of a time finding legal help. The law here isn't just "law" but more like "law and a few extra baggage". I've been through lawsuits before here mate, and despite having been 100% right, the case was almost lost thanks to the "extra baggage"... the law is never certain here, regardless of what the written law is!

Adam Air in the case of the 17 pilots took them off duty after they raised safety concerns. With flight pay going to about 50% of their salaries, it was only a matter of time before they would tender their resignations... and that's when Adam's revenge attacked back... Because on paper, the pilots were legally bound to stay, and if they left, they were to pay damages. Sounds silly? it happened.

It was said that Adam Air reported some to the police too for having had deliberately flown an unairworthy aircraft despite the management being the ones who made the "force order"... This would cost extra money to the accused... why? because no matter how crazy the accusation is, it'll cost money to get a fair investigation... and a little more money can turn it your way. Guess who has more money?

With high unemployment, and low pay, those who can leave and pay off the bond would do so on the spot.... those who cannot, suffer... A license in Adam is an expendable commodity... One that many have invested a lot in. I feel sorry for those who'd just joined and didn't hear anything about the conditions within Adam, having spent their family's fortunes in getting a pilot's license, they now have a long term working bond, valued at >1x the amount they invested...

It's sad I know... I'm just happy I'm not working there... and happy my close friends managed to find loopholes or blackmailed the company back for a safe exit! For the momeny, I tell my friends not to even touch that company with a bargepole for work or as a customer.

PK-KAR

[bomarc]

anyone who hasn't heard of this type of pilot pushing (though this seems extreme) simply hasn't been around aviation very much.

what pilots do to keep a job is almost shocking...and I wish pilots could know that before their first training flight.

even in the usa, I have seen something called a 'training contract' which is almost like indentured servitude (thankfully found illegal later on, almost against the constitution).

I believe the poster who has indicated such. and to the guy quoting regulations...that is like saying it is illegal to drive faster than 65mph in the us...it is illegal in most places, but it happens

[Willie Everlearn]

I've been flying aeroplanes since 1976.
I've flown for a small number of airlines, in a variety of operations, environments, cultures and countries. I've flown several airliners, both scheduled and IT, including the B737-200 and NG series aircraft. I've also had the good fortune to never had to work for an operation that used intimidation as motivation. :confused:
What struck a chord with me in this tragic event is the suggestion (and I believe it entirely possible) that the crew MAY have been intimidated into accepting an aeroplane that might not have been airworthy.:=
Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why? :confused:
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows. :=
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news??? :confused:
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error.
"It's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground." :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
Keep it real,
Willie :ok:

[PK-KAR]

Willie,
Those who can and wanted to leave have left... that's the good news.
For me, after hearing all the stuff that has gone in in there, I still wonder why some would join them (and only to hear them complain about regretting that decision).

Being alive is surely better than dead, but having a huge debt to some people is worse than risking one's lives and licenses but with no debt at all. The bonds are high, the pay is too dirt low (especially in Adam Air).

If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
And make the rest of your life paying for it, and sometimes, even your children... Or... you might loose your license in the meantime, then, go bankrupt and live on the streets...

YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
Here, licensed dispatchers do sign their lives on the loadsheets.

I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Well, this is one case where he doesn't understand that this is the outcome. The finance director is loyal only to 1 thing, profits...

Bad advertising? Yes, but people still fly on them (and complain but still fly them again). Bad press? Oh yes, Adam gets heaps of them, but then again, people still fly them. Investigation? OMG! What investigation? The investigation on -KKE's 400NM nav error was nothing short of a tragic comedy... yet people still fly them.

The only things for certain are, it'll just be a matter of time before things break/crumble one after the other... or that change will eventually happen for the better (well, seeing the maintenance bill climbing could eventually be a factor). The problem is, how long would that take and how many lives are lost before then...

It's real all right...

PK-KAR

[fox niner]

Hi there everlearn,
You're completely right. However, unfortunately, this accident happened in Indonesia.
Therefore, some things are better not discussed or investigated, because it is TABOO to do so.
Which, by the way, is an Indonesian word....

[PK-KAR]

Fox Niner,
I never knew TABOO is an Indonesian word...
Well, learn something everyday...

PK-KAR

[Casper]

Does anyone know the actual words used in the two distress calls from the aircraft?

Does anyone know if the weather radar was u/s at the time of departure?

[bomarc]

I read an article that indicated that 2 different elt signals were being tracked...one on 121.5mhz and the other on 460 mhz.

one part of the article suggests that the plane broke apart in flight, possibly an explosion.

may I theorize the following: perhaps the plane was not well cared for and the continutity of the airframe had a gap in which a lightning strike did not pass through the plane WITHOUT creating a spark gap, perhaps in a fuel vapor area causing an explosion.

as we all know, a plane which is properly allowing for a lightning strike to pass through it will perhaps show a small hole exiting the structure...but a gap which allows this spark to jump, just MIGHT cause an explosion.


we shall see

[219joochiat]

Fox Niner,
I never knew TABOO is an Indonesian word...
Well, learn something everyday...

PK-KAR

Well then, forget about this and learn that:hmm: :
Taboo is not Indonesian at all, it's Polynesian and based on religious grounds, ie Gods are so powerful, it's not even worth talking about, it's TABOO...
To relate Polynesians and Indonesians...:ugh:

[gengis]

Willie,

"Having also invested many of my 'airline' years to safety and safety program management, I find it absolutely embarrassing that in this day and age regardless of 'contracts' for type ratings, training bonds, in whatever form, that those who take on the responsibility of flying a commercial transport with fare paying passengers haven't got the fortitude to refuse the flight.
I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment. Why?
Because, if you allow yourself to get bullied/intimidated by some 'management' type who doesn't fly and certainly may never have sat at the pointy end of a B737, at Flight Level 3-5-0, on a dark and dirty night, and who may not even know the rules by which YOU operate the aircraft, then tell him/her to get stuffed (if you like) or reject the despatch due to the applicable regulation. It's that simple.
I certainly understand companies like this may have politicians or judges in their pockets but that's life.
YOU'RE the one signing the Techlog, not the despatcher, operations manager, or CEO.
I can't imagine the CEO of this or any other LCC wanting to see this as an outcome to one of their scheduled flights. BAD advertising, not to mention the scolding to follow in the press during the investigation that follows.
Could it be that some managers don't wish to give the boss the bad news???
They might have to answer his questions about why the aircraft had faulty IRSs, or why they had no operating WX radars?
Are you working for a company that operates like you're suggesting???
One that operates by shoddy maintenance and by intimidating crew???
Then my best suggestion would be to get out while you can.
If that means you take a 30,000 (whatever currency) debt with you.....
at least you are alive.
If this crew found themselves operating under this kind of duress, with a suspect airframe, during a monsoon in coffin corner then I say again, pilot error."

You are right in the drive of your argument, and you are also right in admitting naivete. I note - by your own admission - that you have never flown with 3rd rate outfits like those in Indonesia. Nor have i, but i do live in a not-so-very-far-away place, and i understand all too well these "types". Especially to quote you in saying "I know that sounds naieve to many posters but it's up to us to put our responsibility as PIC ahead of our employment.", perhaps when you have actually had the experience of doing this yourself would you have the moral authority to say those words. I do know 1 person, in a different (but in some ways similar) circumstance to be told that "career prospects are at stake" & "you will never work in another airline again".... under that kind of duress, when your wife & 3 kids are relying on you to put the bread on the table, make the mortgage payments.... if & when YOU have actually done this yourself, please do let us know....

I myself have had the fortune not to have been placed in that situation; but i stop short of making those kinds of statements.

As i said, you are absolutely right in your facts, but completely wrong in making the assumption that things in Indonesia work the same way they do in Canada....

[Load Toad]

One thing that people should realise is that Indonesia - whilst a wonderful place populated with wonderful locals etc blah blah...
...can be a very threatening place where very strange things can happen and being 'right' or 'within the law' will not help. I'm not in the airline industry but my experience in business has shown that if someone wants to make your life difficult - 'they' can make it very, very difficult indeed.

[airmen]

Speculation and assumption, this is not a market place here and the fact that there is a deadly crash impose some respect, get the facts and then discuss about them...

Like for the ones that say "I will never do that", you better say nothing unless you have already faced the same situation, you will be surprised...how money is every thing in this world, believe me:uhoh:

Lets wait for some "correct and unbiased" news and facts first!

[ppvvmm]

Is it possible that the wreckage IS where the authorities originally said it was, but that they now want 'finding' it to be delayed for some reason?

The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!

pvm

[Stubenfliege 2]

Is it possible that the wreckage IS where the authorities originally said it was, but that they now want 'finding' it to be delayed for some reason?

The confidence with which the authorities were quoting the eye-witness scene, and the exact co-ordinates, and the 'epirb' signal lat/long lead me to think it may well be exactly where they said it was!

pvm

And the authorities do this due the following reasons: ............?

[CPL_Ace]

Aircraft from Singapore on Thursday joined Indonesia's search for a plane that disappeared in bad weather with 102 people aboard four days ago, while navy vessels combed rough seas. First Air Marshal Eddy Suyanto, commander of the air base in Makassar, said a new report had been received that an emergency signal had been picked up south of Manado, the lost plane's
Destination in North Sulawesi province, three days ago.
Until now, military and civilian aircraft have been mainly scouring the jungles and rugged mountains of western Sulawesi, while ships searched the Makassar Strait between the islands of Sulawesi and Borneo.
I don't think they have found it Beril
A Reuters photographer on one of the military planes said most of the aircraft circled over a rugged mountainous area in the Toraja highlands, a remote region popular with tourists.
The confusion over the plane highlighted the logistical difficulties of dealing with disasters, from quakes and volcanoes to floods and forest fires, in an archipelago of 17,000 islands
.......and more interestingly
President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system.

[RiverCity]

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has ordered a full investigation into the condition of all commercial planes in Indonesia and what went wrong in the Adam Air case, as well as an evaluation of the nation's transportation system.

And, as a long-time reporter, let me add to his statement: "...And then we will break for lunch..."

Sounds like boilerplate to me.

[barit1]

Inasmuch as no productive ELT "hit" has turned up, it may be a VERY long time before the 737 is found. There was a WWII B-24 crash on Celebes (Sulawesi) that remained hidden for 25 years (http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/celebes.htm).

[EFHF]

I read an article that indicated that 2 different elt signals were being tracked...one on 121.5mhz and the other on 460 mhz.
AFAIK modern ELTs transmit their primay signal in 406 MHz, but in some models a separate old system lower power 121.5 MHz "homing signal" is provided in the same unit for use by air searches. I think it's extremely unlikely that the two signals could be from PK-KKW and be over 200 km apart (one in Sulawesi mountains and the other in Makassar Strait). A more plausible explanation is that only one or neither is from PK-KKW, but other aircraft/ships/hikers in distress. After all, it's likely that there were many other people in trouble during the storm which claimed even a large ferry, of which BTW, survivors are still being picked up (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6227093.stm) hundreds of km from the sinking location due to high winds and currents spreading the life rafts around.

The 406 MHz signal should provide positive identification though, but considering that they are so horribly confused that the story of what is known changes daily, you must really wonder. Perhaps they are not really tracking any 406 MHz signals but several anonymous 121.5 MHz ones. Who knows. There is also a confusion about two emergency calls from the cockpit, which the local officials reported about originally, but even this is now retracted (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/indonesia_plane). Possibly the spokesmen mixed the ELT signals with distress calls to the ATC.

I think this quote wraps up the situation pretty well:
Indonesia is a place full of miscommunication, contradictory information and confusion during an accident like this. There is gossip and rumor and you never know what the facts are.

The coordinates for ELT positioning (030 13'92" S 1190 09'17" E) given in the Adam Air (http://www.flyadamair.com/info) site (after you correct the end zeroes which apparently are meant to represent degree signs) point to a location which matches the first reports (http://ca.today.reuters.com/misc/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=uri:2007-01-02T110332Z_01_JAK149439_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-INDONESIA-PLANE-COL.XML) about a wreckage location 20 km from Polewali (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=-3.242222,+119.154722&ie=UTF8&z=13&ll=-3.242153,119.154797&spn=0.117228,0.21698&t=h&om=1&iwloc=addr).

This is on the west slope of mountain Bulu Kananmanu (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/indonesia/txu-oclc-21752461-sa50-16.jpg) (grid 50MQM4643) between Sabura and Suprakit and at elevation of about 1,950 ft above MSL.

Also, the same Adam Air bulletin gives mention of Singapore Satellite Detection Signalwhich probably means the COSPAS/SARSAT ground station (LUT) in Singapore. This should mean a reception of an ELT signal which supports at least 20 km accuracy and the search should have yielded results by now.

However, this later article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070102/wl_asia_afp/indonesiaaccidentair_070102140118) contradicts any possible interpretation of the location information from Adam Air, giving the ELT signal location as Bambang Karnoyudho, head of the National Search and Rescue Board, told MetroTV Tuesday.

He said the last signal detected by a Singapore satellite indicated the plane was in the water 30 kilometres northwest of Makassar, the capital of South Sulawesi province.That would put the location in grid 50MQK45 in this map (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/indonesia/txu-oclc-21752461-sb50-4.jpg).

Then there is this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?&p=3047878&postcount=61) about the latest radar contact at 100 nm, 340°, I presume from WAAA, which would put it quite near Bulu Kananmanu. Also had it gone to sea "30 kilometres northwest of Makassar" according to the second ELT location claimed by Bambang Karnoyudho, it would have still been with good radar coverage which contradicts the information from "PK-KAR".

[ppvvmm]

And the authorities do this due the following reasons: ............?

... to give them time to tamper with evidence of institutional negligence. Seems far fetched I know, but one recalls how the previous AdamAir navigation problem incident was dealt with, where most of the evidence was unfortunately never seen by investigators.

pvm

[roadrunna]

As mentioned, it may take a long time before they locate the plane. Sulawesi is mostly dense jungle and the roads are very narrow & winding which makes it uncomfortable to travel on, there are areas that are notoriously difficult to reach let alone trying to conduct a thorough search.

Hopefully they find the plane soon.

[colt_pa22]

However it is possible that the ELT may not have transmitted for one of several reasons; ELT submerged in water, co-axial connection to external antenna or external antenna broken in crash, location of ELT in certain mountainous terrain.
What about the reason for the ELT not transmitting due to its unserviceability?

[mini]

Can somebody please explain the mechanics of this ELT? I'm under the impression that its reliant on an external antenna, connected by co-ax to the transmitter. If this is the case then it would seem not to be much use in locating an aircraft following a typical impact?

[arba]

As AdamAir is "scheduled operator" the ELT/ELBA is NOT mandatory.

But this particular aircraft has one, maybe the previous operator install it.

[airsupport]

Fate of Indonesia Jetliner Carrying 102 Remains Mystery

Thursday , January 04, 2007
FoxNews


MAKASSAR, Indonesia — Indonesia's Adam Air Flight KI-574 took off on New Year's Day with 102 people. An hour into what should have been a short hop between islands, the pilot reported heavy winds. Then the plane vanished, sparking a massive search.

Thousands of soldiers battled rugged jungle terrain, a fleet of aircraft took to the skies and ships scoured the sea for a third day Thursday, spanning a 28,000-square-mile area — roughly the size of Ireland, or the U.S. state of California.

But by nightfall they had found no trace of the Boeing 737.

"We know nothing, whether it disintegrated in midair, flew into a storm or there were technical problems," said Nicholas Ionides, managing editor for Flight International Magazine in Asia. "We just don't know."

A top aviation official said the Adam Air plane that left Indonesia's main island of Java on Monday for Manado on Sulawesi island did not issue distress signals or complain of mechanical problems. The statements contradicted earlier reports and capped days of confusion.

On Tuesday, authorities wrongly claimed they had found the jetliner's charred wreckage and a dozen survivors, causing anguish among families of the plane's passengers, including an American man and his daughters.

Hundreds of relatives have camped at airports and hotels in Manado, which was supposed to be the flight's final destination, as well as Makassar, initially believed to be closer to the crash site.

Many are grappling to understand how a 120-foot-long aircraft could vanish.

"It's impossible. How could a plane disappear for several days without any clues whatsoever," said Junus Tombokan, 53, who was waiting news about his nephew.

Iksan Tatang, the director general of air transportation, said that while the 17-year-old plane did experience severe weather halfway through its two-hour flight, there were no complaints from the pilot about navigation or mechanical difficulties.

But he told reporters Thursday that at least two signals from its emergency beacon — which is activated on impact or when a jetliner experiences a sharp, sudden descent — were picked up by a plane in the vicinity and by a satellite.

Eddy Suyanto, the head of the search and rescue mission, later put the number of so-called Elba signals at six, putting the last one over waters just south of Manado, but did not explain the discrepancy.

With no Mayday distress call, industry experts and pilots said it was possible the plane experienced a sudden, catastrophic mechanical failure, serious navigational problems, or even an explosion.

But Indonesia's transport minister cautioned against making guesses.

"I urge people not to speculate," Hatta Radjasa told reporters. "We must wait until the National Commission for Transportation Safety has located the ill-fated plane."

In the U.S. state of Oregon, the mother of two students who were on the plane with their father said she is holding out hope for them.

"There are times that I'm extraordinarily competent in all this, and times when I break down," The Oregonian newspaper of Portland quoted Felice Jackson DuBois as saying.

Stephanie Jackson, 21, and Lindsey Jackson, 18, were visiting their father, Scott Jackson, 54, Felice's former husband, who lives part-time in Indonesia.

Adam Air is one of at least a dozen budget carriers that have emerged in Indonesia since ex-dictator Suharto was ousted from power in 1998, when the industry was deregulated.

The rapid expansion has led to cheap flights to scores of destinations around the sprawling nation of thousands of islands, but has raised some safety concerns, since maintenance on the leased planes is reportedly poor.

Professional pilots discussing the accident in online chat rooms allege cronyism and political favoritism in Indonesia's aviation sector often undermine public safety.

[AdamAir]

Hi Guys.

I'm Indonesian and I already knew what will happen next prior to the accident.

There will be many teams of investigation. The results: "It's because of bad weather"
For the victims family, there are some insurance claim about 100-200 Million Rupiahs (About USD 11,000-22,000)
Cases ended

Adam Air will fly again, like there's nothing happened. In the months, people will forget it. And life goes on.

It's a good tactics to give some empty share of the company to the Chief of Parliament. He will be a bodyguard if something bad happened.

Regards,

ADAMAIR

[vapilot2004]

Can somebody please explain the mechanics of this ELT? I'm under the impression that its reliant on an external antenna, connected by co-ax to the transmitter. If this is the case then it would seem not to be much use in locating an aircraft following a typical impact?

ELTs come in 2 varieties - the older 121.5 MHZ unit and the newer 406Mhz type. Both are activated by the G force associated with a crash and both are usually installed in the tail section of the aircraft and will have a remote antenna placed nearby.

The newer units are far more reliable and in addition to a distress signal, include the reg of a downed aircraft and country of origin in a data burst about once every minute for at least 24 hours - often for 50 hours or more.

All ELTs are designed to withstand a moderate impact force, however they are not required to have the same crash and fire protection specs as a DFR would. Your point regarding the antenna and interconnecting coax is a valid one. Engineers consider survivability and transmission line power loss when choosing the location of the antenna.

News reports of both signals being detected seem to indicate that this aircraft has the newer 406mhz ELT which also transmits a lower power signal on 121.5 to assist in locating the crash site by rescue aircraft.

[PK-KAR]

Then there is this post about the latest radar contact at 100 nm, 340°, I presume from WAAA, which would put it quite near Bulu Kananmanu. Also had it gone to sea "30 kilometres northwest of Makassar" according to the second ELT location claimed by Bambang Karnoyudho, it would have still been with good radar coverage which contradicts the information from "PK-KAR".

The information I received was that at 340/100NM MKS, the aircraft was heading NW. This is so far roughly the only information that has not changed since.
If that was wrong... then why after 4 days, they have not found it and have now started search an area 400NM further northwest from the area?

We're all baffled!

PK-KAR

[jet_noseover]

"Troops, police, villagers and volunteers Friday headed back into the jungle-covered hills near Majene while another search and team in dinghies was scouring the seas close to the shore to search for any bits of the missing plane.
But the main focus has shifted to areas south of Manado, the plane's original destination, after Manado's Sam Ratulangi Airport reported detecting a signal from the plane.

The signal was detected on Monday around the coastal village of Nuangan in Bolaang Mongondow district, some 110 kilometres (68 miles) southwest of Manado but only reported on Thursday.

:ugh: :ugh:

"We have received a new lead based on the emergency locator beacon aircraft (ELBA), which was detected by the air traffic control at Sam Ratalungi," Air Marshal Eddy Suyanto, commander of the Hasanuddin Air Base at Makassar in South Sulawesi, was quoted as saying in the Republika newspaper."
More at:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070105/wl_asia_afp/indonesiaaccidentair

[ATC Watcher]

As AdamAir is "scheduled operator" the ELT/ELBA is NOT mandatory.
But this particular aircraft has one, maybe the previous operator install it.

An ELT not mandatory for a " scheduled operator" 737 carrying pax ? Whose regulations say that ?

[Graybeard]

An ELT not mandatory for a " scheduled operator" 737 carrying pax ? Whose regulations say that ?
ELT are not required for US part 121 carriers. I remember one being fitted for the first time to an ex-Delta 727 going to a Euro carrier.

GB

[airsupport]

missing plane still unfound in Indonesia


Rescue teams still have no clues of the location of the commercial plane with 102 on board that missed on Monday, Indonesian Transport Minister Hatta Rajasa said.

The Boing 737-400 commercial plane operated by Adam Air Corp., lost contact at 15:07 Jakarta time on Monday, official of the company said.

Singapore's radar has informed two possible spots of the plane crash on land and sea waters, but the minister said that in Makassar city, eastern Indonesia, only one spot on the ground was indicated.

The operation for the searching of the plane is carried out in Tator regency of West Sulawesi province and Mamuju regency of South Sulawesi province, and in the waters of Majene of the island, said Hatta.

Adam Air is one of more than dozens budget airline companies that have established in the country since 1999.

Source: Xinhua

[helirider]

You can find the indonesian regulations online at: http://www.dephub.go.id/udara/dsku/prod01.htm
(english text) and in CASR 121.339 (a) (4) (relative to Extended Overwater Operations), it is required "an approved survival type emergency locator transmitter".
Same text in the parag. 121.353 (b).

[Kulwin Park]

Initial thoughts:

Maybe the aircraft was accidently shot down by the military ... a training exercise gone wrong? Maybe a military cover up? What are the possibilities?
There is always a satellite watching the world from above. They would have a recorded trace of its flight path right? And if a explosion, a heat type cloud, or picture! The US & world commanders are not silly!
Maybe a hijacking took place?ALL POSSIBLE COVER UPS !!!!

Wot do you think?

[eman_resu]

1. Probably not, as there would have been little chance to get the alleged 2 maydays off
2. If they are not 'silly', then why would they have shot it down, and if satellites were tracking all aircraft then why would we bother with ground based radar anymore?
3. Then why wasn't the squawk changed?

Can we stick with the facts????.... Or stick posts like this in JB?

[vapilot2004]

You can find the indonesian regulations online at: http://www.dephub.go.id/udara/dsku/prod01.htm
(english text) and in CASR 121.339 (a) (4) (relative to Extended Overwater Operations), it is required "an approved survival type emergency locator transmitter".
Same text in the parag. 121.353 (b).

The 'survival type' ELT in the Indonesian regulations refers to a portable unit which would be manually activated by crew or passengers and is part of the life raft equipment.

The ICAO has ruled all carriers worldwide equip their aircraft with the 406Mhz ELTs. Carriers were recently given an extension to implement these installations. (I think by Jan 2007)

[airsupport]

U.S. Team Joins Investigation of Missing Indonesian Airplane


Jan. 6 (Bloomberg) -- A team of U.S. transport safety officials have arrived Indonesia to help investigate the disappearance five days ago of a passenger jetliner carrying 102 people.

The Adam Air plane, operated by PT Adam Skyconnection Airlines, was flying from Surabaya in East Java to Manado in North Sulawesi on Jan. 1 when contact was lost with air traffic controllers at Makassar airport.

The six-member team consists of two officials from the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, one from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration, two from Boeing Co., and one from General Electric Co., said Agung, an officer at the rescue center at Hasanuddin airport in Makassar, North Sulawesi.

``They're here to work with the Indonesian transportation safety committee to support the investigation of the crash,'' Shannon Quinn, assistant press attaché at the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, said by telephone today.

The Singapore Air Force has sent a team of 22 with a Fokker 50 aircraft to help Indonesian officials search for the missing 17- year-old Boeing 737-400 aircraft.

Authorities have expanded the search to Central Sulawesi and Gorontalo after previously focusing on South Sulawesi. More than 2,000 people including police, military, government officials and volunteers are involved in the search.

``So far, efforts have not been able to locate the plane,'' Agung said.

No Deadline

Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has instructed that every resource be used in the search and has set no deadline for it to end, M. Ikhsan Tatang, the country's director general for air transport, said yesterday.

Vice President Jusuf Kalla today is scheduled to visit Makassar to check search operations for the aircraft.

He will then visit Surabaya to meet survivors of a sunken ferry. Eight people are confirmed dead in the sinking and more than 300 people are still missing. The ferry Senopati Nusantara sank three days before the Adam Air plane went missing.

The plane crash is Indonesia's worst air disaster since Sept. 5, 2005, when a Mandala Airlines jetliner crashed into a residential district in Medan, in North Sumatra province, killing 149 people, including residents.

[OldChinaHand]

Please God there may still be some hope of survivors from this loss.

One thing that strikes me, at a first glance and pre empting the accident reports, is the number of large public transport lost in severe weather over the last 12 months.
1....737-200 Africa (Nigeria I think)
2....Tu 154.(just north of Black Sea, Russian Carrier I think)
3.....Now Adam air with severe weather the prime suspect.

Perhaps with Global Warming severe weather is becoming more severe, or perhaps we really need, as an industry, to press for a re-evaluation of pilots and operators methods and strategies for dealing with same.

While some I fly with are very weather conscious, others leave a lot to be desired.

This is a general comment on severe weather ops and in no way suggests that the Adam Air crew were negligent in relation to this issue.

God speed the SAR mission.

[robmac]

Old China,

You could be right, read the thread about continued ops at EDI on New Years Eve when the winds were gusting 55-85KT, and in the event of an emergency the slides would have been horizontal down the side of the aircraft. In one case the wind was too strong to open the cargo doors, but the aircraft still departed outbound pax to LHR, with inbound pax bags still in hold, and outbound pax bags left in EDI :uhoh:

It is rumoured that recently an LHR inbound short haul, flew right through the storm which was busy creating the tornado that knocked the roofs off of a whole street.

With the multiple back up systems and fantastically strong designs of Mr Boeing and Mr Airbus, and all of the automation available together with first class training of crews, flying on modern fleets with reputable airlines appears to be almost workable in those conditions.

However on the outside of the herd are less reputable operators, with less cash, lower standards for crews and very old equipment, where the cockpits have a similar level of backup and automation as the light twin that I fly (not very much). I think that as worse weather has crept up on us, it may now be beggining to pick off those whose safety margins are already significantly eroded.

Perhaps you are right and there needs to be a review, before the conditions start to bite the main part of the herd.

[Melax]

It's getting better and better !

"Searchers slaughtered a buffalo in a traditional ceremony and consulted psychics Friday, the fourth day after an Adam Air jetliner went missing over Sulawesi."



http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20070106.@01&irec=0

[Newforest]

Phsycics are getting involved !!

Let's leave science out of it, the Psychics are now looking!

[172driver]

Interesting snippet in the online edition of Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,458145,00.html) (German newsmag, usually quite reliable).

In brief, the article states that the ELT has stopped transmitting today:confused: , but more interestingly paraphrases the last known transmission by the 737 as 'we are fighting crosswinds and need reliable coordinates'. If true, a hint of a nav system malfunction ?

[LatviaCalling]

If Der Spiegel says that the transmitter stopped transmitting at a certain time, then it also should know approximately from where it was transmitting, shouldn't it?

Re the NTSB, the FAA and Boeing, they are there mostly as window dressing. You can be sure the NTSB is not going to hold a public news conference on this one.

As far as the psychics and shamons are concerned, they also have to make a living. Yet on another subject, I don't think this incident has anything to do with global warming.

[TheSailor]

Hello,

If Der Spiegel says that the transmitter stopped transmitting at a certain time, then it also should know approximately from where it was transmitting, shouldn't it?


Well.... not at all.... :)
If Der Spiegel.. know as many of us...how long is the battery duration after the safety device is triggered.... (begin to emit if any......) it's no need of psychics for know the end of transmission (if any...) :ok:

Just a tough .... :)

Regards. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a/bye.gif

[HotPete]

The ELT wont work very well if it's at the bottom of the ocean!

[172driver]

Guys, I posted this comment from Der Spiegel not because of the ELT, but because of the (if true), last known transmission by the 737: 'we are fighting crosswinds and need reliable coordinates'.

In view of a previous AA 737 going hundreds of miles off course because of faulty navigation equipment, I think this is the interesting part of the article.

Has this been reported elsewhere?

[broadreach]

Perhaps someone can clarify something that may be puzzling others besides myself. Unctuous’s post No 48 and other linked maps show an elliptical flight path, around the south of Sulawesi, rather than a direct one which would have been pretty much over the centre of the island. Would that have been the usual route or would this one have been influenced by weather?

[AerocatS2A]

Unctuous’s post No 48 and other linked maps show an elliptical flight path, around the south of Sulawesi, rather than a direct one which would have been pretty much over the centre of the island.

I don't know that this is the case for this specific flight, but the shortest distance between two points on a sphere (e.g., the Earth) will appear curved when translated to a flat two dimmensional map using some charting techniques.

[broadreach]

Aerocat, it had occurred to me as well that it might be the projection but I don't think it's the case here. Prior to posting I checked Google Earth which, when you zoom in, tends to smooth that distortion out.

[AerocatS2A]

You're right, I just got a straight piece of paper and marked out the great circle track on a globe. It would've looked pretty much like a straight line on that map, so that's not the reason.

[Al Weaver]

If Der Spiegel says that the transmitter stopped transmitting at a certain time, then it also should know approximately from where it was transmitting, shouldn't it?
Re the NTSB, the FAA and Boeing, they are there mostly as window dressing. You can be sure the NTSB is not going to hold a public news conference on this one.
As far as the psychics and shamons are concerned, they also have to make a living. Yet on another subject, I don't think this incident has anything to do with global warming.

Would you like to clarify your point about the bolded above?

[fox niner]

The line on a map depicting the great circle will certainly be a straight line in this case, because the entire intended route in very close to the equator and even crossing it. there is no curving-distortion that you may see on trans-atlantic flights for example.

The stupid curved flightpath is complete nonsense and drawn by a journo...

[JerryR]

What amazes me is that there was no transponder fixes. Given the comments on Adam Air Maintenance it could be faulty. With the newer ELT there is a broadcast on 406 to the SAR Satellite system that would give a very specific GPS position. One must consider either that the ELT was not working or it went into the water.

In the water there is a Pinger attached to the FDR and or the CVR which activates in water, but the search group must have a receiver. That is a question that very few address until the need arises, unfortunately.

I'm sure the FAA / NTSB and other agencies will assist with technical help as will Boeing. Of course their main interest is to find the reason for the crash and evaluate wether there is a manufactor or regulation change to be recommended.

Good luck to the search parties.
JerryR

[vapilot2004]

With the newer ELT there is a broadcast on 406 to the SAR Satellite system that would give a very specific GPS position. One must consider either that the ELT was not working or it went into the water.


The ELT in question more than likely had no position input option installed. Without GPS/IRS input data to the ELT, immediate location is not possible. We must then rely on multiple satellites to triangulate.

The triagulation method requires several birds to be 'in view' (xx degrees above the horizon and within the bird's footprint) and relaying the ELTs signal. Some of the satellites required can be out of view for an hour or more. Even in a situation where all birds are in view, there will not be an immediate resolution of the ELT position. It can take some time and multiple transmissions to accurately interpret the broadcasts from the ELT although this is usually not more than a few minutes.

[bomarc]

172 driver has a point


let's just say that all the fancy and semi fancy nav stuff quit...and indeed the x winds aloft were bad.

and no radar coverage.

does anyone recall a crappy airline (can I say crappy?) called SPIA? (south pacific island airways).

there were stories that the one 707 they had was flown on trans oceanic routes with just a whiskey compass for nav.

now let's say, just for argument's sake, that this operation didn't keep things up to snuff nav wise on this 737? And the plane is hundreds of miles from the area of search. it may be sheer luck that eventually finds this plane.


or maybe some sharp guy with real winds aloft information and a hunch...


oh well, I prefer flying over land...you can always read the name of the town on the water tower.


(ps...does anyone remember that movie about the c47 /dc3 that was lost...decided to follow the coastline till they found a town...even their compass wasn't working...turned out they were following the coastline of an island and kept going round and round...YIKES)

[EFHF]

The triagulation method requires several birds to be 'in view' (xx degrees above the horizon and within the bird's footprint) and relaying the ELTs signal.
The "triangulation" or positioning of the ELT signal is done with only one satellite using a Doppler shift (http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/DescriptionOverview/doppler.htm) of the signal due to the satellite moving in relation to it. There is no need for multiple satellites to be in view of the ELT (this is a feature of the GPS system instead). However, with the 121.5 MHz signals there is a need for a second pass to resolve on which side of the satellite ground track the ELT is, due to the lower frequency making giving less separation between shifts on the sides due to Earth's rotation.

[ORAC]

Navy ships searching for missing Indonesian jetliner finds metal on sea bed
The Associated Press: January 7, 2007

MAKASSAR, Indonesia: An Indonesian navy ship has detected metal on the ocean floor that might be the wreckage of a jetliner that disappeared one week ago with 102 people on board, a top commander said Monday.

A more sophisticated U.S. Navy ocean mapping ship taking part in the search for the Boeing 737 was heading to waters off Sulawesi Island's western coast to do a more detailed survey, said Gatot Sudijanto.

"If that metal turns out to be what we are looking for, then thanks be to God," Sudijanto, adding it was found in three locations within a several kilometer radius at a depth of 1,500 meters to 2,000 meters.

[DX Wombat]

Orac, for the sakes of all the families and friends let's hope they have got it right this time and that it isn't wreckage from WW2 ships / aircraft.

[trwilliams]

I just want to thank you all for paying attention; I'm with the family in Bend and am using you as one of my sources of information. I wanted to see what the non-media and non-government had to say about this.

We appreciate it, thank you--

--Travis Williams--

[Kato747]

According to www.poskota.co/id , 3 fishermen, working to the north of the Bulumanuk Island, saw the aircraft in flames just before it impacted the sea 10km north of Sapudi Island. One of the fishermen said he was not certain, but the aircraft he saw was light red in colour (Adam Air's livery is white/Orange/Red).
There was no explanation as to when this info was given to Indo autorities, but judging from the earlier false reports from villagers, it seems likely that this "sighting" may have been treated with a grain of salt. Keep in mind that MOST eyewitnesses to any aircraft crash report seeing the aircraft in flames!
The Indonesian Navy HAS indeed located 3 "targets" off the coast of Mamuju, spread over about 6 km between the major "pings". The USN is on the way with a deep-sea recovery capable ship to assist the Indonesian Navy. Hope they have located Adam Air 574!
Before the Indo bashers climb on this..... NOTE that it was the Indo Navy who found the targets. THE USN is only helping with vastly advanced-tech capability to identify these metal masses. Yes, I'm a Yank, with ties to the USN as well!

FOR MELAX: Lighten up on the "Psychics" comments..... the local Bomo, Shaman, or even "Psychics" fulfill a place in this society every bit as germain as that of the local preacher, preist or Imam, or "Dion Warwick's Psychic Friends Network". Some are shysters, most really believe they can help. You don''t have to agree that they have the answers but stop slinging epithets at a culture you don't understand, OK?

[Kato747]

Mamuju is about 70-80nm N of Pare-Pare.... that's still on Sulawesi, about half way up the western side of the Sulawesi "Orchid". Not off NE tip of Java.
Remember the film "Krakatoa, East of Java"..........????? Sorry , but Krakatoa is west of Java, between Java and Sumatra..... Walt Disney has no sense of direction (geographical, at least)
Mamuju airport (MJU) would have been little use to them anyway... it's only 2329' long!

Sapudi Island is, indeed off Madura, significantly farther South. Confused? so am I!

[barit1]

NTSB Preliminary report (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070108X00016&key=1)

(If the link doesn't work, right-click on it, select Properties, then copy the URL & paste it in the browser address window)

[BD1959]

News Ltd is reporting (http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21036410-23349,00.html) that 3 objects have been found in 1km deep water (I'm ignoring the lawsuit bits!!).

How would it be possible for an aircraft to break up (even below the surface) and yet there be no surface wreckage??

BD

[EFHF]

How would it be possible for an aircraft to break up (even below the surface) and yet there be no surface wreckage??
BD
The storm which was capable of dispersing liferafts hundreds of km from the ferry disaster surely was also able to disperse any floating debris in a similar fashion, so if this is really the wreckage of PK-KKW, then it's expected that no floating debris has been found anywhere near the purported underwater location of the wreckage. Perhaps some of the debris will be found in the coming weeks washing ashore all around the Makassar Strait.

[vapilot2004]

MAKASSAR, Indonesia (Reuters) - A U.S. navy ship helping hunt for an Indonesian plane missing for nine days should be able to shed more light later on Wednesday on a metal object found on the sea bed, an Indonesian navy commander said.
The search for an Adam Air Boeing 737-400 that vanished in bad weather on January 1 with 102 people aboard has chiefly focussed on large metal objects, possibly wreckage, detected on Monday by Indonesian ships using sonar in deep water north of Mamuju in west Sulawesi.
"It will take them until 10 p.m. (3 p.m. British time) tonight to confirm the exact position and to figure out what kind of object is down there," Moekhlas Sidik, commander of the navy's eastern fleet, said after returning from aboard a ship in the area.
He said that the USNS Mary Sears, an oceanographic survey ship, had confirmed the findings of an Indonesian ship of metal objects at three points and was focussing on one of the sites.
"Mary Sears has multi-beams to receive noise frequency that will enable them to form a silhouette. We are focussing on the coordinate that has the strongest ping," he told a news conference in Makassar, Sulawesi's largest city and where the search is being coordinated.
The spot being examined was 31 km (19 miles) north-west of Tanjung Rengas at a depth of 1,700 metres (5,600 ft), he added.


Link to entire Reuters UK story here. (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-01-10T081329Z_01_SP180360_RTRUKOC_0_UK-INDONESIA-PLANE.xml&WTmodLoc=HP-C3-World-5)

[threemiles]

For those who want to ask Google maps where the point of last radar contact was enter this:
003°55'S 118°13' E
(As even the FAA seems not to be able to write down coordinates in a correct format these days).
Makassar ACC is using at least 6 MSSR radar stations within its FIR and there is certainly no radar shadowing at this spot, over water and only 100 NM right in front of the main radar site.

EDITED: it is the NTSB, not the FAA

[broadreach]

How ironic that we have such spectacular – and free - tools as Google Earth, with resolution that in places allows us to see peoples’ shadows on the ground, and yet a modern aircraft can disappear just as completely as would have been the case fifty years ago. And fifty years ago we couldn’t have picked up traces of metal 1,500m beneath the surface.

While following this thread I thought if the aircraft went into the sea there would be abundant flotsam which inevitably someone would report, therefore after eight + days and no news it seemed more likely it went down on land and now lay under the forest canopy. A closer look at the coastline and interior of Sulawesi - via Google Earth - is humbling; what a truly mammoth search job it must be. Moreso given the weather conditions that, as EFHF mentions above, could blow a liferaft such a distance from its launching.

[EFHF]

For those who want to ask Google maps where the point of last radar contact was enter this:
003°55'S 118°13' E
(As even the FAA seems not to be able to write down coordinates in a correct format these days).
Makassar ACC is using at least 6 MSSR radar stations within its FIR and there is certainly no radar shadowing at this spot, over water and only 100 NM right in front of the main radar site.The earlier report (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?&p=3047878&postcount=61) of bearing 340° from WAAA (MKS) would put it about 60 km further due course 70° from that NTSB location.

However, from the fact that searches have been conducted all around Sulawesi, including checking at least 7 ELT signals over 400 km apart, seems to indicate that there isn't much confidence in any single clue as to the location of the aircraft (perhaps even the find of metal structures on the seabed). The sonar contact is according to latest reports (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/indonesia_plane) at
The debris was roughly 2 1/2 miles from the West Sulawesi provincial capital of Mamuju (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=mamuju+indonesia&sll=-3.241982,119.154968&sspn=0.937817,1.73584&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=11&ll=-2.601492,118.891296&spn=0.46918,0.86792&t=h) at a depth of about 4,500 feet, he said.
which is about 100 km NNE of the last radar contact as reported by NTSB.

[jfill]

The Jan. 11 9PM (Jakarta time?) release of information about the Adam Air crash has been delayed. They need more time to analyse the sonar data from the USNS Mary Sears.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20070108172809&irec=0

[aardvark2zz]

Nobody mentions specifically the underwater acoustic pinger on the plane and the search for it !!?? Batteries won't last forever.
.

[EDLB]

Given that the pinger is of current design and batteries are still up to specification they should last 30 days. However the acoustic radius is only a few miles.
If it chrashed into the jungle I would assume that at least an ELT is working.
Has anybody here an idea about the likelyhood that the pinger and ELT was operational on this plane?
What is astonishingh, that there is so little reliable information, given that the place where it presumble vanished from the radar should have decent radar coverage.
Was there any transponder Mode C readout of height bevore it disapeared?
Christian

[CargoOne]

Nobody mentions specifically the underwater acoustic pinger on the plane and the search for it !!?? Batteries won't last forever.
.

I have learned from last year Armavia A320 crash in Black Sea that receiving of FDR pinger signal is not very easy and even then it still makes a lot of efforts to locate the site. They knew more or less exactly where the crash was (it was very very close to the shore) and it took them around two weeks or so to locate FDR by ping and to recover it, now you should consider both Russian and French specialists were working hard from day one and having all kind of special equipment and knew where to search.

[jet_noseover]

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200701111311/part_of_missing_indonesian_plane_found_in_sea_-_official


1:11pm on 11 Jan 2007

A part of the tail of an Indonesian jetliner that went missing 10 days ago with 102 people on board is reported to have been found in the sea off Sulawesi island.

The Makassar air base commander, Eddy Suyanto, said on Thursday the left tail's stabiliser number 65C25746-76 was found by a fisherman. He said the find was made 8km south of Pare Pare and 300m from the beach.

[Flightsimman]

Courtesy of "www.news.com.au"
From correspondents in Makassar, Indonesia
January 11, 2007 11:13am
Article from: Reuters
A PART of the tail of an Indonesian jetliner that went missing 10 days ago with 102 people on board has been found in the sea off Sulawesi island.
"This morning I announced that there has been a finding of a part of Adam Air. What was found was the left tail's stabiliser number 65C25746-76. This thing was found by a fisherman in Pare Pare," said Eddy Suyanto, the air base commander in Makassar.
"This thing was found 8km south of Pare Pare and 300m from the beach."

[Re-entry]

A body has been found in the sea. - Reuters

[EFHF]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070111/capt.ekw10201110132.indonesia_airplane_wreckage_ekw102.jpg

The location (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=pare+pare+indonesia&ie=UTF8&z=8&ll=-4.017699,119.701538&spn=3.900771,6.943359&t=h&om=1&iwloc=addr) from where the "stabilizer section" (looks more like a flight control surface such as a part of the elevator instead) was found is 200 km from where the underwater sonar contact is reported (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/indonesia_plane) (and much further by sea around the beach line of Sulawesi) but probably incidentally relatively close (<50 km) to one of the many reports of ELT positions (the one tracked on the 2nd day of the disappearance, "30 kilometres northwest of Makassar" according to National Search and Rescue Board of Indonesia).

If the rest of the aircraft is really 200+ km away from the find of this floating part, that would be consistent with the power of the storm in dispersing any surface debris.

[vapilot2004]

Wreckage of Indonesian airliner found at sea
MAKASSAR, Indonesia (Reuters) - Pieces of an Indonesian airliner which vanished with 102 people on board have been found on the ocean floor, officials said on Thursday, after a painstaking 10-day search from jungles to stormy seas.

Parts including a tail stabilizer and flight attendant seats were confirmed or reported found in the sea and on beaches near the town of Pare Pare on the west coast of Sulawesi island. A top search official later said that a woman's body recovered in the vicinity was not that of a missing passenger.
Exhausted relatives expressed relief that they finally had firm news on the plane, even if the news was not good, after a long wait and an erroneous report that the airliner had crashed in the jungle and some people had survived.

The Adam Air Boeing 737-400 was heading from Surabaya in Central Java to Manado in northern Sulawesi when it vanished in bad weather on New Year's Day. The plane made no distress call, although the pilot had reported concerns over the weather.

"This morning I announced that there has been a finding of a part of Adam Air. What was found was the right tail's stabilizer number 65C25746-76. This thing was found by a fisherman in Pare Pare," said Eddy Suyanto, who has been coordinating search efforts from an air base in the South Sulawesi capital, Makassar.

"This object has the same number as the Boeing catalog," he told reporters, displaying the slightly scratched white stabilizer of about 1 meter (3 ft) in length found on Wednesday.

Two flight attendant seats were also found on a beach on Thursday in the same general area, search and rescue official Immal Yuhani told Reuters.
A stream of other apparent wreckage had also been found and was being examined, said Genot Hardianto, the chief of police at Pare Pare, about 100 km (60 miles) north of Makassar.

"So far there have been eight fragments made of fiber and aluminum in sizes ranging from 25 to 50 cm long, a life vest, an ID card, a flare and a headrest," he said.


Metro Television showed footage of a series of local people holding what appeared to be plane fragments. One elderly woman showed a small square piece of mangled, white wreckage.

Elshinta radio said fishermen had discovered a life vest wrapper 10 km from the stabilizer's location.

Earlier, a police official told Reuters the body of a woman, estimated to be in her 30s, had been recovered, but Suyanto had ruled out her as one of the passengers. He did not elaborate.


the rest here from the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/11/AR2007011100019.html)

[pingopango]

What chance of a bomb?

[bobusse]

What chance of a bomb?

So far,documented bad weather is enough to start with speculating

[Another Number]

What chance of a bomb?

Near zero.

Apart from the obvious likely causes so far mentioned, and the fact that this flight would be a comparatively low preference target ... the big give-away is that no-one (AFAIK) claimed:
"victory for the glorious [I]in the heroic struggle against [insert-offending-way-of-life/nation/political-system]."

[matkat]

As remote that there will be any good news the number quoted is a part number and NOT a serial number.

[Rollingthunder]

Yes a panel assembly and not serialized and not the "right tail's stabilizer". A floater.

[Rockhound]

Does anyone have any info or thoughts on what altitude the aircraft was at when the pilot reportedly (according to an earlier post) advised ATC that he was "fighting crosswinds"? If he was at FL 350, would this not be unusual phraseology to describe turbulence - if that was what he found himself in?
Rockhound:confused:

[lomapaseo]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070111/capt.ekw10201110132.indonesia_airplane_wreckage_ekw102.jpg
The location (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=pare+pare+indonesia&ie=UTF8&z=8&ll=-4.017699,119.701538&spn=3.900771,6.943359&t=h&om=1&iwloc=addr) from where the "stabilizer section" (looks more like a flight control surface such as a part of the elevator instead) was found is 200 km from where the underwater sonar contact is reported (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/indonesia_plane) (and much further by sea around the beach line of Sulawesi) but probably incidentally relatively close (<50 km) to one of the many reports of ELT positions (the one tracked on the 2nd day of the disappearance, "30 kilometres northwest of Makassar" according to National Search and Rescue Board of Indonesia).
If the rest of the aircraft is really 200+ km away from the find of this floating part, that would be consistent with the power of the storm in dispersing any surface debris.

Assuming of course that the piece didn't come off inflight at altitude earlier.

so may possibilities, so little facts

[EFHF]

Assuming of course that the piece didn't come off inflight at altitude earlier.
But that doesn't agree with reports of other debris found near this piece (food trays and shards of fuselage, piece of a chair that said "fasten seat belt," a food table and part of a tire). If those parts came off during flight, it's almost impossible that the aircraft went for 200 km more before coming down. Also, the location where the debris was found is within good radar coverage, 70-90 km from the last radar contact depending on which source to believe about that bit of information.

[lomapaseo]

But that doesn't agree with reports of other debris found near this piece (food trays and shards of fuselage, piece of a chair that said "fasten seat belt," a food table and part of a tire). If those parts came off during flight, it's almost impossible that the aircraft went for 200 km more before coming down. Also, the location where the debris was found is within good radar coverage, 70-90 km from the last radar contact depending on which source to believe about that bit of information.

Agree, your new data supports your comments

[pingopango]

Near zero.

Apart from the obvious likely causes so far mentioned, and the fact that this flight would be a comparatively low preference target ... the big give-away is that no-one (AFAIK) claimed:
"victory for the glorious [I]in the heroic struggle against [insert-offending-way-of-life/nation/political-system]."


Misguided comments. I would cite the recent research carried out by the McKenzie Institute which would infact make it more likely that no one would claim the action as they were most probably on board and acting in a lone capacity.

[geo7E7]

Ladies and gentlement, lets not speculate...the media and some insensitive parties have done a lot of damages in doing so. Someone here did mention that so far the last reported message was something to do with mother nature - weather. Lets hope more findings will surface soon. On a personal note, I may have lost a friend travelling on that flight....God speed the recovery and search parties!

[219joochiat]

Misguided comments. I would cite the recent research carried out by the McKenzie Institute which would infact make it more likely that no one would claim the action as they were most probably on board and acting in a lone capacity.


Ridiculous...
Then if there is no statement against the "evil states", no claim of being the "chosen by God" and all this crap, what the need of any terrorist action?
If "no one would claim anything" , how can they prove their point?:hmm:

[Another Number]

Misguided comments. I would cite the recent research carried out by the McKenzie Institute which would infact make it more likely that no one would claim the action as they were most probably on board and acting in a lone capacity.


:suspect:

Bizarre!

Maybe you should tell all those behind the "War on Terror" that they needn't worry about Lashkar-e-Toiba, Al Qaeda and Co.

Now they have to think about lone crazed bombers, travelling the skies taking out aircraft for wierd personal reasons they don't want anyone to know about! ;):ugh:

[howflytrg]

lets hope all the tail section is recovered to find out wether or not this was another 737 uncommanded rudder hard-over.

[ironbutt57]

It's not likely an uncommanded rudder hardover would cause loss of control in cruise flight as the aircraft is well above cross-over speed, unless it suffered a complete rudder input reversal (full left then full right in quick sequence ala AA in NY) which then could have failed the vert stab anyway just let the events unfold and see what happens...

[Tee Emm]

With some ethnic cultures it is a fact of life and at the very minimum a reasonable bet, that a jet upset due severe turbulence IMC at high altitude would result in loss of control if only because realistic unusual attitude recovery training from extreme attitudes is not covered in their simulator training.

Throw in possible dual flame-outs - and subsequent intricate QRH procedures required - as has happened in the past in the CFM 56 engines (some may remember the other Indonesian 737 that had a double engine failure in heavy weather and was fortunate enough to dead stick into a river bed with minimum casualties) - and unless the crew were coldly professional, calm and collected (not a normal characteristic of some cultures) then the sad ending was inevitable.

[RatherBeFlying]

Pinnacle Airlines comes to mind as an example of one of those "ethnic cultures"

[visibility3miles]

Echoing earlier comments:
AP: Indonesia Budget Airlines Questioned
Monday January 15, 12:32 am ET
By Anthony Deutsch, Associated Press Writer
AP: Pilots Say Poor Maintenance, Rule-Bending Rife in Indonesian Budget Airlines

JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) -- Four years ago, young pilots lined up to join a new contender in Indonesia's booming aviation industry. But at least 20 left Adam Air within months, citing concerns that poor maintenance, corruption and rule-bending could lead to a crash -- charges the airline denied.

"I didn't want to wait until I had lost my friends," said Feisal Banser, 30, a former Adam Air flight captain who knew several crew members on a passenger jet that crashed Jan. 1 with 102 people on board.

Adam Air, founded by Agung Laksono, the speaker of the House of Representatives, is one of dozens of privately held airlines to have emerged since Indonesia started deregulating the industry in the late 1990s, bringing cheap air travel to the sprawling island nation.

Experts say there is no evidence budget airlines are less safe than full-fare competitors, but the rapid expansion of the sector has raised concerns that, in Indonesia at least, growth has outpaced the supply of trained aviation professionals, regulatory oversight, parts and ground infrastructure.

"The industry growth is so fast and it's not matched by the growth of human resources," said Dudi Sudibyo, an aviation expert called on to advise President Bambang Susilo Yudhoyono about Adam Air Flight KI-574, which disappeared on New Year's Day during what was supposed to be a short hop between islands.

"There are not enough regulators, flight inspectors or planes," he told The Associated Press.

The Adam Air pilot did not issue a mayday before his plane fell off the radar in severe winds, and with the flight data recorder still missing, experts do not know yet what happened.

But the crash off Sulawesi Island's western coast -- 16 months after a domestic Mandala Airlines passenger jet slammed into a bustling neighborhood on takeoff, killing at least 149 people -- put the spotlight back on the aviation industry.

Adam Air has a fleet of 17 aircraft that fly to popular tourist destinations like the resort island of Bali and the country's cultural hub of Yogyakarta, as wells as routes to Singapore and Malaysia.

Sutan Salahuddin was among 17 pilots who jointly resigned from Adam Air in May 2005 citing alleged safety concerns. They are now being sued by the airline, which alleges they violated their contracts and owe the company training fees, according to the West Jakarta District Court, which is expected to issue a ruling within weeks.

The demand for pilots with ratings for jets such as the widely used Boeing 737-400 is so great in Indonesia that companies often poach them from each other, sparking lawsuits to recover training costs.

Banser and Salahuddin alleged that as part of efforts to save costs, parts were replaced or recycled, regulatory officials were bribed, or pilots were pressured to break international safety regulations.

Salahuddin, who joined Adam Air at its inception, says he left after essential problems with his plane's inertial reference unit, a key navigational tool, were repeatedly left unfixed.

"I saw how Adam Air managed the maintenance of the aircraft and I resigned to protect my life and the life of the passengers," the 35-year-old said, adding that he was once asked by the company's operations chief to sign documents clearing a flight because there was no technical engineer at the airport.

"He called me in the cockpit and told me to fly, but the aircraft was not airworthy," said Salahuddin who refused to take off, enraging his managers.

Adam Air's director of safety and security, Capt. Hartono, denied the allegations and all others claiming that the company knowingly violated international safety guidelines.

"These are just rumors," he said, refusing to comment further.

No other officials from the airline could be reached, several employees are believed to have changed their phone numbers since last week's disaster, and large sections of corporate information on Adam Air's Web site have been removed.

The Center for Transportation and Logistics Studies, a private policy group, said Indonesia's discount airlines have increased the amount of time planes spend in the air, from 70 percent to up to 95 percent to boost profit margins, putting a crunch on servicing.

But there is not enough data available to say if that was jeopardizing safety, said Danang Parikesit, a leading researcher, though cost-cutting was "probably reducing the safety standard."

Bansar, one of the former pilots, said there was no doubt in his mind that was the case.

When mandatory aircraft part replacements were due, including essential navigational instruments, Adam Air officials "swapped with another aircraft, so as not to replace it ... then if they didn't find the part for another 30 days, they would swap it again," he claimed.

Banser said he flew on a plane with a cracked door handle "for several months" because there was no spare in stock. He asked an engineer if it was legal to fly with the defect and "he just smiled."

"Every time you flew, you had to fight with the ground staff and the management about all the regulations you had to violate," said Banser, who says he was grounded for a week in 2005 after refusing to fly because he would exceed the maximum of five daily takeoffs.

He said he gave in to demands that he fly the plane -- which also had a damaged window -- after managers agreed to pay each crew member an additional $110 -- an offer Bansar accepted.

But eventually the pilot said he lost faith and quit.

Sudibyo, the aviation expert advising Yudhoyono, recalled a still-unexplained incident last year when one of its Boeing 737s went missing for hours following a navigation and communications breakdown, eventually making an emergency landing in Tambolaka, hundreds of miles from its final destination.

The airline broke several civil aviation regulations that day, including flying the plane away from the scene before an inspection by aviation authorities, he said. The pilot was fired, but government regulators would not say if the airline was fined, citing confidentiality regulations.

"The safety report on that company is a big question mark," Sudibyo said.

Iksan Tatang, Indonesia's top civil aviation official, said he had heard about the accusations, but could not respond in detail until reviewing formal complaints from the pilots.

"I invite the pilots to give me the information. Why did they give it to everybody, but not the regulators?" he asked. "As far as I know, we have to follow the international regulations."

Pilots said they regularly reported maintenance problems to technical staff, but were grounded or docked pay when they confronted managers. Filings on aviation incidents are confidential and several officials said they were unaware of any company ever having been held criminally liable in a fatal Indonesia transportation accident.

[flyingoli]

Interesting thread don't you think, especialy if you see the the starting date of this thread:

Adam Air - The Flying Circus Nightmare (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082)

[V1&urRockin]

I am really shocked and sad to read all of the things stated in this thread...and ask myself if it wouldnt have been possible to have the operating licence of this airline taken long ago..maybe it would have saved a few lives now..
And for PAK-KAR I think its great that he has opened his mouth about the allover state of this company but I wish he would have had the courage to pursue it further...No offence its everybody own choice..but he stood up here so he might as well go all the way..
As for the managment of this company..they have blood on their hands..
Somebody should get this airline out of business

I just wish the families and relatives of the lost Adam Air Aircraft to find their peace ..and may God bless the victims.

[PK-KAR]

V1,
Many are now speaking, and previously expected, no one would listen until there is a smoking hole in the ground somewhere. My friend left Adam because they shunned him after he raised safety concerns, but thankfully he wasn't sued, because he was type rated when he came in, so the contract bond was negligeable.
Another friend left Adam after almost being killed on an unreported accident.
Another left as soon as his bond period was over.
Another friend left because she ended up in hospital with typhoid & fatigue thanks to >100hrs a month flying (let alone duty), and 6-1 roster.

Many of them have preferred to just leave and not say anything, the reason is that, employment is not easy over here nowadays, but this company abused it. One by one people will break and leave... Talking would just make them and their families suffer, and employment in the industry will be harder.

As for me, I never was in Adam, hence the options of taking it further safely was limited, and I'd put those who were talking at an even greater risk. As you said, it's everyone's choice, and not an easy choice it is. Especially those pilots with a huge contract bond, a mortgage and a wife with three kids to feed... a lawsuit for some silly reason because he left the company would put them out on the streets, literally!

I'd leave you with a quote from one who worked in Adam tried to speak up, but then realised it was best to leave than fight a loosing battle... Even he feels saddened.
Inallilahi KKW.

I touched you many times . I reduce your load with my own bare hand due to your engine condition at that time. I yell at another person at that time because I know you weren't fit to fly. I re-calculated your plan because you can not legally fly RVSM airspace sometimes. I don't mind loosing my job at that time as long as you, the crews, the passangers, are save and sound.

The engineers, operations personnel, crew, we all know that you need to rest. We all know that you are tired.
Too tired to fly. Too tired to do anything. All you need is just a little bit of Tender Loving Care from the "upper hands."

No more the non-bright-couloured PKKKW. You are one of a kind. In the sea of oranges, you are the brightest one.
You are gone now. Taking all the crews and the passangers with you.

I am sorry. I am very sorry for not being to be able to protect you anymore. I wasn't there at the time. I was unable to protect you, the crews, and the passangers. Now you are gone...

My heart is always with you... I'll see you when my time comes

Sigh...

God Bless Them.

PK-KAR

[V1&urRockin]

Thank you for replying so quickly...It grieves me deeply to read all of this...everyone knew that it was just a matter of time till this aircraft would have fallen from the sky..
I can also understand the plight of all the people employed at this company who have families to feed and careers to pursue..but amongst all this corruption there must be a slight chance of turning the tables on this company ..there must be a higher authority who will investigate this affair.
As for the quote from your friend...he must be feeling distressed at this incident..but people are dead ..the aircraft gone ..nothing will bring them back.But future incidents must be prevented.
It is time to grieve and take justice for the deceased and for all the harm this company has caused to its employs and to your friends.

Inallilahi Wanilehi Rajiun.

[A380lover]

Ok what are we speaking about here, we are not speaking about a bloody bus which can stop by the side of the road if there is a problem. My god i think that in french it's call" non assistance à personnes en danger", I am pretty sure that a lot of persons who where knowing before would have never allowed a friend or a member of his family to climb in such a crap aircraft in such a crap company. Thank god i am not in this situation so i don't know how i would have reacted but as a pilot i know that my reaction must not be like this one otherwise I would be f*** with conscience and then i would prefer to be a bus driver.

[theamrad]

With some ethnic cultures it is a fact of life and at the very minimum a reasonable bet, that a jet upset due severe turbulence IMC at high altitude would result in loss of control if only because realistic unusual attitude recovery training from extreme attitudes is not covered in their simulator training.

Throw in possible dual flame-outs - and subsequent intricate QRH procedures required - as has happened in the past in the CFM 56 engines (some may remember the other Indonesian 737 that had a double engine failure in heavy weather and was fortunate enough to dead stick into a river bed with minimum casualties) - and unless the crew were coldly professional, calm and collected (not a normal characteristic of some cultures) then the sad ending was inevitable.

Instead of making ill-formulated speculation that the cause of this accident was caused by the ethnicity of the pilots, passengers, country in which the accident took place,etc,etc, you might spend your time better by watching "big brother" and the behaviour of some of your equally racist compatriots at the moment.

If I'd ever been stuck as a passenger in the same situation as those in Garuda flight 421 - I'd be more than happy to have had INDONESIAN pilots in control: Loss of both engines, failure at restart attempts, TS with heavy rain and IMC down to 8000 ft, SUCCESFUL ditching with NO OTHER option available in that area - only 1 (INDIRECT) fatality. I call that admirable at the least - some might even say possibly a "characteristic of 'their' culture"!

As for the pilots who face future proceedings in Indonesia (for doing the right thing)- I genuinely wish you the the best of luck dan saya harap pengadilan mampu bersikap adil dalam mengambil keputusan - bebas dari tekanan politik yang mungkin menyertai. I hope the relatives of ft574 find peace soon and have their questions answered ultimately. We can only hope that this will be the final accident to make the regulatory authorities (and moreso government/certain politicians) wake up!

[A37575]

Relax Theamrad old chap. The points made by Tee Emm are borne out by numerous incidents and accidents in the SE Asian region over the past decades. Of course it is speculation. Would you prefer zero discussion on Pprune pages - a sort of information black-out from which pilots learn nothing.
It is called freedom of expression - something very much frowned upon in some cultures.:ok: :ok: :ok:

[theamrad]

Naturally I would want discussion on these pages, after all that's what there here for. Even though never posting before, I've been reading here on a wide range of issues for quite a while. Obviously discussion here helps in many ways - and biven me personally a greater insight on many issues.

But there's one hell of a difference between criticism of pilot training/suitability, non-enforcement of regulations, lack of politicial will to ensure safety to the travelling public (in any country)etc; and making sweeping generalisations based on ethnicity and not fact. Remarks like that don't point to a valid criticism of pratices - but nothing more than a statement of fact that "certain cultures" are not even capable of practising them. That's racist bigotry - NOT freedom of expression.

As for assumptions about pilot training - am I supposed to assume that every pilot not belonging to "some ethnic cultures" have had completely adequate upset recovery training - if so it's news to me - and I'm sure to a good few others besides. I can remember quite a few accident reports pertaining to US and European airlines citing inadequate pilot training as factors.

While many of the posts here are highly critical of the situation with Adamair - this is criticism that I think is more than welcome and well placed based on past history - especially from those who are Indonesian or expats who have worked there and know where the real fault lies ( and therefore what they are talking about). But I think that this criticism is made with the hope of bringing change - not just slagging off all Indonesians.
As for being professional, calm and collected - my personal experience of Indonesians in general versus any other countrys' inhabitants rates them pretty near the top - especially at calm and collected. And, after all 17 pilots resigned last year en-mass (with full knowledge of the potential consequences) - I guess they weren't being professional, since in the opinion of Tee Emm they belong to a culture which isn't capable of excercising professionalism.

Freedom of expression is not freedom to abuse. And while we're on the subject momentarily - if someone was to try, for example, denying the holocaust in Austria or a few other European countries - the "Freedom of Expression being a pillar of Westerm democracy" waffle won't be a valid excuse/reason when they're prosecuted.

I don't want to discuss this particular matter any further here - purely for the reason that I've made my point and i think this is going way of the vein of interest for the matter at hand and most contributors.

[Wizofoz]

Loss of both engines, failure at restart attempts,

Err..... Loss of both engines due to deliberate penetration of a CB- Perhaps not the best example of superior Asian airmanship...

[Charlie Hotel Xray]

Adam Air is also on my IWNFWT * list!

The posts above show what a terrible record they have.:yuk:

* I Will Never Fly With Them:}

[PK-KAR]

Well, GA421 was a case of entering a MilZone with little leeway eitherside. If I remember correctly they did not fly into a CB, but encountered heavy precipitation along/near the "Purwo Corridor" (which is rarely a nice experience in monsoon season). After the incident CFM issued a bulletin regarding the limitations in precipitation.

Whether that's bad airmanship or not, I'm not here to decide... wasn't there when it happened.

PK-KAR

[PK-KAR]

CHX,
IWNFT list? I got them on the same list, but my "W" is "Would" instead of "Will"... *evil grin*

My former company tried to force me to fly on Adam on cost grounds, I flatly replied "feel free to fire me, otherwise, put me on a different airline." Trip aborted instead! LOL

PK-KAR

[barit1]

...
But there's one hell of a difference between criticism of pilot training/suitability, non-enforcement of regulations, lack of politicial will to ensure safety to the travelling public (in any country)etc; and making sweeping generalisations based on ethnicity and not fact. Remarks like that don't point to a valid criticism of pratices - but nothing more than a statement of fact that "certain cultures" are not even capable of practising them. That's racist bigotry - NOT freedom of expression...

Well put. The culture of professional aviation requires thorough top-down and bottom-up inclusiveness. If the national will allows corner-cutting, and isn't requiring accountability at every level of its airlines, the result is sadly predictable.

One wonders if Mr. Agung Laksono flies in private aircraft maintained to the same -- ummm -- standard as his airline?

[EY777]

Perhaps not the best example of superior Asian airmanship
Obviously Wizofoz, you have never flown in the tropics in South East Asia when monsoon is in full swing.For one small blip in safety record wherever that may be, there are numerous others in some other part of the globe.....,luckily accident investigators are more objective than basing their investigation on ethnic/racial lines. :D
Again, let the investigators do their job.Any stuff ups will be made known & we (the professional pilots) will be wiser about it.

[lomapaseo]

I'm bothered by the unsubstantiated and speculative linkage of past history with this accident.

There is very little facts available to us at this point and if one is going to openly link past history with this accident, then please share with us your expertise that not only raises the speculative possibility (speculation) but also the probability which requires expertise to sustain in a discussion.

I have seen no serious arguments at this point for a probable cause.

Regarding the flameout scenario. Were not all the previous events associated with reduced power approaches where the engines have more difficulty in processing precip?

[ABX]

PK, that summary is one of the scariest things I have ever read!:yuk:

Thank you for posting it, people should know.:D

ABX

Ps. I think I might start a List like CHX!:ok:

[Wizofoz]

Obviously Wizofoz, you have never flown in the tropics in South East Asia when monsoon is in full swing.

Writting this from SIN actually!!

let the investigators do their job

Based my comment on the NTSB report as it happened.

I did not mean this to sound like a general swipe at Asian pilots. I know and have flown with many excellent pilots of many nationalities. It was, however, a response to theamrad's post which suggested the Garuda 737 crash was an example of great airmanship. It seems they did a sterling job once the flame=out occured, but got in the situation by flying through a very small gap between two very big CBs- There but for the grace of god, sure, but it still is not a shining example of great airmanship.

[PK-KAR]

I thought this would be interesting to know...

Well, just today, Adam Air was reported to have gone to one of the most critical TV stations, and said they were and had a plan for a new PR campaign and would like to put it on that station and pay for it, but would like that station if possible to not view Adam Air unfavourably...

The silly thing was... they went not to the commercial office or the management, but went to the news section! So it received a NICE coverage... with one anchor saying... "feel free to pay for the advert slots, but we'll still air what we find.."

Major embarrassement...

The link is here, but Indonesian only...
http://www.liputan6.com/view/3,135979,1,0,1169051059.html

On another front, that TV station found out that Adam Air only has 1/4 of the staff and crew covered by the compulsory social security insurance... and guess what, they asked the social security insurance (Jamsostek) if the crew were covered and the reply was, none of their names are on the program... This "lapse" of social security cover was denied by Adam... unsurprisingly.

And again, the 17 pilots that were sued by Adam is preparing to countersue with allegations that their contracts had been changed. The evidence issued in court was different from the one they had, and Adam Air denied it and is now also preparing a counter-countersuit alleging the 17 pilots had instead submitted altered/forged contracts... The investigation from the TV channel revealed the deficiencies in the documents used by Adam... ie: possibly invalidating the contract.

Oh well, on another front... the guy in Adam heading the disaster coordination for this accident doesn't even know if Adam had 1 or 2 aircraft painted in white, and he's the commercial director... I guess he never sees his aircrafts.

Interesting that the media coverage on this is continuing, and that SCTV has exposed a heck of a lot on Adam, some more so than the dirt we can find through the rumour network...

Even after writing all that was written, I'm stiff baffled at what these guys have exposed on Adam... amazing stuff...

PK-KAR

[LLuke]

If it wasn't for this disaster, I'd have called it funny. Glad to hear the news dept. chose for integrity. Hope the goverment will take its responsabilities too.

[Weizenjaeger]

When I read that a fisherman (named Bakri) found a piece the tail stabiliser, I assumed that he had found it at sea.

I now read reports that he found it 300 meters from the beach, along a roadside, on Tuesday January 9.

Here is one such report (http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=241120).

Try Goggle search words: Bakri Air Adam Fisherman

[EY777]

Then Wizofoz you should have written bad & poor airmanship & not associate it with any gender,race or genetic pool.

As you have now known there are bad apples in any group of humans, just generalising someone's mistake & tar a whole community,society or even genetic makeup is very misleading :=

As you're in SIN, then you would know that dodging CB's are part & parcel of the flying job here.What not many people don't know is the unpredictability of those CB's to pour their guts out even when you're well clear of them,not to mention the associated windshears that come with them.What we now learned from the NTSB report with ref to the GA421 is that all operators of the said a/c have to change their operating procedures when entering heavy precipitation....which before was never in any manual & the manufacturer of the engine did not anticipate to happen.But like you so aptly said There but for the grace of god,

[PK-KAR]

Wizen,
That's odd, he stated to the news media here that he found it in the water... unless I am mistaken, but I just saw it again last night on Metro, and a trace back to SCTV's sites mentioned water too IIRC...

PK-KAR

[Wizofoz]

EY,

Before getting hot under the collar, READ THE THREAD!!

theamsrad said this incident showed how good Indonesian pilots are. I didn't say they're not, I said THIS INCIDENT was not a good example!!

I take it holding your own ethnic group up as being superior is national pride, whilst suggesting they make mistakes like every one else is racist??

[Another Number]

Not intending to throw more fuel on the flames, but there is no "Indonesian" ethnicity. "Greater Indonesia" was the result of the Javanese invading surrounding islands when the colonial occupiers departed.
Even talking about "ethnic traits" is misguided. Its the cultural rather than ethnic traits that is more likely to distinguish between people in certain situations. Some would argue that some Asian cultures lead people to act in specific ways when "saving face" is a factor (and I'm sure we all know the stories and sitauations where this may have been a factor) ... but I'd venture that this is far more present in more northern Asian cultures than that of the Javanese.

However ... back to the real story here!

[EY777]

Wizofoz, if your post doesn't contain any malice, I apologize but I do hope you will make it clear next time.It's perplexing that some posters here associate superior pilot skills with a certain gender/race or genetic makeup.

What some posters don't realise is that the professional pilots throughout the world are exposed with enough publication about CRM & power gradient in the cockpit, but sometimes work culture & environment thrashes that idea the moment they stepped in to work.More so when that's the only means for them to eke a life & put food on the table till a better job comes along (sometimes...never!).

Hopefully, we can all learn something objectively from this disaster.The good news is that Adam Air & the aviation industry in Indonesia in paticular will have a lot to answer for.

Btw, I am not Indonesian, just someone close to that neck of the woods & definitely emphatise witht their predicament.

[PK-KAR]

Weizen,
From http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/01/14/10096624.html
The poor fisherman said he had never expected the piece of white material, he found snarled in a fishing net 300m from the shore and which he initially thought was plywood, would put him in the media spotlight.

This one is consistent with the TV interviews on the man.
---

Theamrad,
Just thought U might be interested... Final verdict on Capt. Sutan vs Adam Air is delayed until 23Jan... and... it is reported that Adam has instead settled...

1. Adam to write reference letter stating Capt. Sutan is a good pilot
2. Revoke the letter Adam sent to DGAC stating Sutan is not suitable for flying
3. Reach an agreement on how much Adam should pay Sutan in loss of income
4. Reach an agreement on how much Adam should pay Sutan in damages
5. Pay damages caused by loss of income in terms of Capt. Sutan's car lease!

Verdict not finalized today because the amounts on #3-5 have not been agreed and still needs to be negotiated.

PK-KAR

[barit1]

Perhaps this is throwing petrol on the fire, but this (http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/at-least-400-still-missing-after-ferry/20061230095709990019) is a remarkably similar accident within a few days of the present thread.

Makes it pretty hard to disclaim cultural issues. :eek:

[Techman]

In 2006 there were more fatal aircraft accidents in North America than any other continent.

What does that tell us?

[Codger]

In 2006 there were more fatal aircraft accidents in North America than any other continent.

What does that tell us?

Absolutely nothing.
Fatalities per flt hour might indicate something.

[theamrad]

Thanks for letting me know, PK-KAR. Definitely sounds like a good outcome so far - and better than I would have anticipated. I wonder how much the potential bad publicity from loosing the case played in deciding to settle the case. Ok - stopped wondering! lol.

To be honest, I definitely feel cinical about the chances that this particular accident will make any difference from a government/"top-down" enforcement perspective. I think in the aftermath, it will be business as usual - unfortunately.

[PK-KAR]

Yes... business as usual, with at least the normal loads of lemmings/self-loading suicidal pax/those who'd rather risk their lives for a $5 savings in cheaper fares by flying Adam Air and Madam Sandra Ang is still laughing all the way to the bank (or hell?) unfortunately.

*shakes head*

PK-KAR

[B772]

You've never been to Indonesia have you Wombat. Such confusion, and grandstanding is quite common.

Lots of rumours in S.E Asia about Adam Air and this accident in particular. They include aircraft and equipment serviceability, crew training and compentency, flight in hazardous forecast weather conditions.

In an effort to further confuse the possible reasons for the loss of the aircraft and crew/passengers Adam Air announced 2 days ago they are going to replace all their Boeing fleet with A320's.

[jet_noseover]

Lots of rumours in S.E Asia about Adam Air and this accident in particular. They include aircraft and equipment serviceability, crew training and compentency, flight in hazardous forecast weather conditions.
In an effort to further confuse the possible reasons for the loss of the aircraft and crew/passengers Adam Air announced 2 days ago they are going to replace all their Boeing fleet with A320's.

Exactly what EgyptAir did after their flt990 loss in 1999.


Guess what their fleet is mostly composed of now.....?

[vapilot2004]

In an effort to further confuse the possible reasons for the loss of the aircraft and crew/passengers Adam Air announced 2 days ago they are going to replace all their Boeing fleet with A320's.

All of Adam Air's 737s are high cycle machines with the majority being classics over 15 years old. Considering the reported lack of proper maintenance at Adam Air, they certainly would do very well to order some newer aircraft.


Exactly what EgyptAir did after their flt990 loss in 1999.
Guess what their fleet is mostly composed of now.....?

EgyptAir's current jet passenger fleet consists of 26 Airbus and 21 Boeing aircraft. Of the 16 A320 series aircraft they own, 11 of them were delivered before FLT990 and 3 A340s were also ordered prior to the apparent suicide by the FO.

The jet orders Egypt Air made after 1999 were split between Boeing and Airbus. They have recently ordered 12 more 738s. (2005/2006)



Commercial aviation safety worldwide could benefit greatly if the third world operators (and LCCs) were to replace their aging high-cycle fleets with new aircraft and include a top tier maintenance deal when they buy.

All they need is money.

[Podunk]

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus? Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives.

Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX.

Air Asia (Malaysia) has the largest feet of NEW A320's going..... on my LAST (and I DO mean LAST) Air Asia flight ex KL, I caught a glimpse of the flt deck on boarding one of theiir NEW A320s and was amazed by the sea of orange DMI stickers on the panels. I thought they had changed the Airbus cockpit colour scheme...:eek:

My family does NOT fly Air Asia or Adam Air any more. Neither do I ! Flights with MAS only accepted if it's on a Boeing.

[PK-KAR]

In an effort to further confuse the possible reasons for the loss of the aircraft and crew/passengers Adam Air announced 2 days ago they are going to replace all their Boeing fleet with A320's.

I wouldn't want to know what would happen if they change from 733/4/5s to A32Xs without a change in the rumoured/reported maintenance standards/practices... Perhaps Adam Air would be "direct law specialists"...

In an effort to further confuse the possible reasons for the loss of the aircraft and crew/passengers Adam Air announced 2 days ago they are going to replace all their Boeing fleet with A320's.

As far as research/inquiries has allowed, Adam did order the A320s, but "all subject to finance", and that, was the problem. I guess lack of financial transparency was part of the problem. Then, about 3 months or so ago, Adam Air declared that it was disappointed in Airbus in that "they lack ability to deliver the A320s within the timeframe wanted." *YEA RIGHT*

So, as we write this, and since Christmas, I've heard that there have been some Adam Air engineers over in Turkey, now, would this be getting more 734s? or perhaps they're looking at Onur Air A320s? *sarcastic grin & excuse the pun*

As for Adam operating the 320, I'd have to follow what Podunk indicated... ie; won't be a pretty picture.

Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX.
Well, it's not that bad, though it is more like quick profit from initial low maintenance, then they IPO and cash their stakes in, then the maintenance bills start climbing...

Frankly, I don't care what the plane is made by, I care more about the operator... (ie: give me an A320-100 by say, BA or AF, over a 777-300ER by say, Adam Air, ANYDAY!)

PK-KAR

[jet_noseover]

JAKARTA, Jan. 21 (Xinhua) -- The search and rescue (SAR) team has received an orange box, suspected as a black box of Indonesia's ill-fated Adam Air plane, which has been disappeared with 102 people aboard since Jan. 1 when it was on its way from Surabaya to Manado.

The box was found by Ridwan, 41, a fisherman in Somba Utara waters, Majene regency, South Sulawesi province, Antara news agency reported Sunday.

Pare Pare Police chief Sr. Comr. Gatot Hariyanto said that the box was handed over to the joint SAR team tasked to track the missing plane for further investigation by the Transportation Safety National Committee.

The box measuring 21 centimeters long, 6 centimeters width, and 4.5 centimeters high, is being kept in the SAR Command Post in Hasanuddin airport, South Sulawesi provincial capital of Makassar.

Air Force chief of staff Marshall Herman Prayitno said that the box found in Majene is like a plane black box, but he could not confirm that it came from Adam Air plane until the investigation completes.

SAR team has collected dozens of goods, which are suspected coming from Adam Air plane, but the team has not found the main body of the ill-fated aircraft as well as bodies of its passengers.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-01/21/content_5633282.htm

[PK-KAR]

I think that box was determined to be an "emergency ration box" with the writings clearly stating it... was dismissed this late afternoon as such.

PK-KAR

[Centaurus]

NEW A320s and was amazed by the sea of orange DMI stickers on the panels. I thought they had changed the Airbus cockpit colour scheme...


That is a good sign they are sticking to the rules that all unserviceable items must be placarded.:ok:

[StarAllianceGold]

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus? Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives.
Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX.
Air Asia (Malaysia) has the largest feet of NEW A320's going..... on my LAST (and I DO mean LAST) Air Asia flight ex KL, I caught a glimpse of the flt deck on boarding one of theiir NEW A320s and was amazed by the sea of orange DMI stickers on the panels. I thought they had changed the Airbus cockpit colour scheme...:eek:
My family does NOT fly Air Asia or Adam Air any more. Neither do I ! Flights with MAS only accepted if it's on a Boeing.

:eek: Sometimes I hope that people who claim to be pilots on here actually aren't.

[Phil Space]

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus? Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives.
Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX.
Air Asia (Malaysia) has the largest feet of NEW A320's going..... on my LAST (and I DO mean LAST) Air Asia flight ex KL, I caught a glimpse of the flt deck on boarding one of theiir NEW A320s and was amazed by the sea of orange DMI stickers on the panels. I thought they had changed the Airbus cockpit colour scheme...:eek:
My family does NOT fly Air Asia or Adam Air any more. Neither do I ! Flights with MAS only accepted if it's on a Boeing.

Nice USA bit of gripe there because Boeing is threatened by superior technology. I Guess Jap and Euro cars will fall in to the same catagory in America and be 'dissed' for their inferior pedigree!

[Bokkenrijder]

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus?
Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX. I don't want to take the bait of starting a Boeing vs Airbus discussion, but what does you post have to do with the Adam Air story? If Adam Air managment puts pressure on it's pilots to fly unsafe aircraft, then it doesn't matter if they receive their kick-backs from Seattle or Toulouse now does it? :rolleyes:
My family does NOT fly Air Asia or Adam Air any more. Neither do I ! Flights with MAS only accepted if it's on a Boeing. Thanks for this 'insider knowledge' that Boeing aircraft are immune to crashes! I like that in Americans: many of you always find a way to simplify even the most complicated problem! OK I'm off now, running to my stockbroker to buy some Boeing shares... :)

[vapilot2004]

Please forgive this outside-of-the-discussion-excursion, but I am compelled to post the following:

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus? ....Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS.....


While Airbus do aggressively price their wares, Boeing now sees fit to offer some real discounts to the lowly and under-$1B-order customers also.

Manufacturer sanctioned maintenance arrangements can obviously augment local *cough* engineering capabilities.

The ingenious Airbus FBW system and thoughtfully programmed computer system are a boon to airlines with inexperienced crew and/or where their first language may not be English. Consider limited local training resources as well.
Competence should be more.....attainable. :ok:

Passengers worldwide seem to enjoy the IFEs and may even notice a slightly wider cabin compared to the competition.

Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives.


Disposable? - While quoted A320 cycles may not be equal to the long-lived 737, not every airline requires such endurance. Besides, resale values for A320s still seem to hold up quite nicely, thank you.

Sorry for this - but even Boeing has sense enough to avoid quoting safety when it comes to the competition.:ugh:

Airbus is about to deliver the 3000th A320 series sometime later this year. They must be doing something (perhaps several 'somethings') right to attain this goal.


Now back to our regularly scheduled thread....

[geo7E7]

Adam Air does, indeed, have a lot to answer for........but why on earth would any airline intentionally opt for Airbus? Initial economies, and kick-backs to management from EADS must be wieghed against risk in operating "disposable aircraft". The bottom line still doesn't make sense when weighed against safety and lives.
Many LowCost Oper8rs, have bought the Airbus "line". Quick profit for the management and owners. Delays, inconvenience and increased risk for the PAX.
Air Asia (Malaysia) has the largest feet of NEW A320's going..... on my LAST (and I DO mean LAST) Air Asia flight ex KL, I caught a glimpse of the flt deck on boarding one of theiir NEW A320s and was amazed by the sea of orange DMI stickers on the panels. I thought they had changed the Airbus cockpit colour scheme...:eek:
My family does NOT fly Air Asia or Adam Air any more. Neither do I ! Flights with MAS only accepted if it's on a Boeing.

Thanks for the info Podunk, shocking but it's nothing new. However, we're here not to discuss about the conditions of an AirAsia A320s, nor why SilkAir opted to revamp their whole fleet from B737 to A320 after the crash. The talks about Adam's plan to buy A320 is not relevant either. Why you opted to fly with MAS and that's ONLY on Boeing is way below anybody's tolerance who happen to be on the airbus! I do sense some irregularities so lets not start the "Boeing VS Airbus" issue here.:= and stick to the actual thread please....!

[Another Number]

"The USNS Mary Sears has detected ultrasonic pinger signals from the ocean floor on the same frequency as the black boxes from the missing plane." (ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1833995.htm))

[G-OPCON]

Does anyone know, if this is the longest time taken to find a downed aircraft?:confused:

[Bof]

There must be many that are still lost, but for starters how about the BSAA Lancastrian that crashed in the Andes around 1950. That was well over 50 years before they discovered the wreckage, having flown into a mountain in terrible weather.

[Bof]

Further to my last, BSAA Lancastrian 3 GAGWH lost on 2nd August 1947 with 11 pax and crew on board. Discovered at 16000 ft in Andes in January 2000.
Google

[barit1]

Saw the video on this crash & belated recovery.

To be more specific, it crashed on a glacier near the Argentine - Chile border, became buried in snowfall, and slowly moved down the mountain with the glacial flow, until the melting runoff revealed it five decades later.

I believe a similar fate befell a WWII training flight discovered in California only a year ago.

And a Lockheed 14 "Super Electra" (basically a civil Hudson) disappeared between Italy and Corsica (not Sardinia) around 1950. It was not found until Comet I YP went down in the same area off Elba a few years later, and the search teams found the Lockheed debris also.

[salju]

Some details of prior problems with the crashed Adam Air plane are starting to leaking out. Problems were listed with systems including the weather radar, vertical-speed indicator, left-right inertial reference system, fuel differential light, cockpit instrument lights and wing flaps...

Adam Air jet subject of pilot complaints before crash
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/30/news/adamside.php
(http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/30/news/adamside.php)
also,

An Indonesian transportation investigator said the pilot reported strong crosswinds from the left in his last radio transmission, but the control tower said the wind was coming from the right, pointing to possible navigational problems.
The plane, which twice had to change course because of the rough weather, also could have been turned around, Ruth Simpatupang said.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/27/asia/AS-GEN-Indonesia-Plane.php
(http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/01/27/asia/AS-GEN-Indonesia-Plane.php)

[lesenterbang]

Excuse me, but since when does strong x-wind become a problem during cruise?

[bluepilot]

if nav systems are failing then it will blow you off course very quickly if drift is not corrected!

[barit1]

Wind correction - see here (http://www.delphiforfun.org/Programs/Math_Topics/WindTriangle.htm)

[ABX]

salju,

PK-KAR has been highlighting saftey issues inside Adam Air (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240082) for quite some time.

[salju]

Thanks ABX. There is also a growing body of information at wikipedia here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Air_Flight_574

Salju

[ema74]

Hello,
I am Ema74,
About Boeing 737 of Adam Air that lost at North Sulawesi on January 2007, how about seeking opinion from academicians who has some partnerships with airlines in Indonesia ?

Indonesia has some universities that having Aerospace Department, the oldest and the best is at ITB (Institute of Technology Bandung).

Well, I will try to contact colleagues who are experts on air transportation, aircraft maintenance and airlines management.
They have scientific knowledge about it, they are Indonesian, and they knew situation of airlines in Indonesia to some extent because some partnerships they have been done with some major airlines in Indonesia.

I think it is good to seek and listen to their opinions about the Adam Air's accident at North Sulawesi mentioned above.

Regards,

:cool:

[Evanelpus]

I think technology has moved on from the 50's and 60's. I am still amazed that in 2007, a downed commercial airliner, is still missing. I can only imagine what the families of those on board who perished are going through. My thoughts are with them.

[ABX]

Hi ema74,

Welcome to PPRuNe, I hope you enjoy the experience.:ok:

My question for you:

How can academic experts have a reasonable opinion about Adam Air's latest disaster when the wreckage hasn't even been found yet, let alone examined?

Regards,

ABX

[PK-KAR]

ema747,
There was one article covering one academic's (from ITB if I remember correctly) view on the accident, and sorry to say, it was nothing short of a hilarious disappointment.

And, if I understood a comment from one investigator, "there are just too many people trying to get publicity and betting that they're right because nothing concrete has yet to be found."... so follow his advice, "filter cautiously!"

You wouldn't believe how many debates I've had with so called "academics" / or even "former professionals turned academic" on today's world of aviation... I wished I've recorded some of them on video... *evil grin*

PK-KAR

[moosp]

Yes PK I agree, the skills most needed right now are engineering and accident investigators. Perhaps some good detective work thrown in.

Academics can come later, to give us insight into the human factors, both at pilot, air traffic and management level. Even then, we have to be careful that the academic tail does not wag the operational dog.

Sad this has drawn out so long. If this was a B2 with nukes onboard it would have been found a month ago.

[skorpio]

It was located 3 weeks ago.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=27504

[Swiss Cheese]

"The International Herald Tribune reported on Jan. 30 that Adam Air had safety issues before the accident, citing complaints by pilots alleging low maintenance standards. Suherman said the airline has tight safety requirements and planes leased from GE Capital Aviation Services have been inspected at random.
Aam Air has also been in contact with the salvage companies Smit Internationale and Phoenix International to recover the flight data recorder of its missing plane from the ocean, Suherman said."

Rumour in Java is that CVR/FDR recovery costs will not be met by NTSC, so Adam Air (presumably assisted by other interested parties including aviation insurers) may pay for them to be hauled up from 5500 ft below the Straits of Makasser (if they have not moved in the 40kt current).

[ABX]

Rumour in Java is that CVR/FDR recovery costs will not be met by NTSC, so Adam Air (presumably assisted by other interested parties including aviation insurers) may pay for them to be hauled up from 5500 ft below the Straits of Makasser (if they have not moved in the 40kt current).

Do you think Adam Air want them to be found? I bet they would be happy if they were never found. Then their spin doctors can do their work and the real facts of the crash will never be known.

How long do those things ping anyway? I bet AA can stall the search long enough to make them go away...:yuk:

[vapilot2004]

How long do those things ping anyway?

30 days is the regulatory requirement.

[barit1]

Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IA24Ae01.html) article about the state of Indonesian aviation.

[Zeffy]

http://www.phnx-international.com/Feb%2020,%202007.htm

PHOENIX LOCATES ADAM AIR FLIGHT 574

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 --Washington, DC -- Phoenix International, Inc., (Phoenix) announced its key role in the successful discovery of Indonesian Adam Air Flight 574 lost west of Pare Pare, South Sulawesi in 5,500 feet of water. The Boeing 737-400 aircraft and its 102 passengers and crew were lost on a flight between Surabaya, Java and Manado. Indonesian authorities were uncertain of the cause of the crash, and whether or not the airplane crashed on land or at sea. After 11 days, parts of the aircraft washed ashore at Pare Pare confirming Flight 574 crashed in the ocean.

Phoenix, under contract to the U.S. Navy’s Supervisor of Salvage and Diving, NAVSEA 00C (SUPSALV), mobilized a Towed Pinger Locator (TPL-40), L-3 Klein System 2000 side scan sonar, and operations crew to conduct the search and mapping effort. The TPL-40 is a passive listening device capable of receiving the acoustic emissions of the salt-water activated beacons that are common emergency equipment on board all commercial aircraft. Upon deploying the TPL and acquiring signals from the beacons, the Phoenix operations crew methodically worked to home on the beacons to refine their locations. Once done, the crew conducted a detailed side scan sonar survey of the entire debris field. All information and survey data were then passed to Indonesian representatives for their consideration in a recovery decision.

The successful search and mapping effort was conducted aboard the U.S. Naval Oceanographic Office survey ship, USNS MARY SEARS (T-AGS 65).
Phoenix is SUPSALV’s prime contractor for conducting underwater search and recovery operations to water depths of 20,000 feet worldwide. The company provides quality manned and unmanned underwater operations and engineering services to an international customer base. Areas of capability include Underwater Ship Inspection & Repair, US Navy & ABS Certified Underwater Welding, ROV Operations, Deep Ocean Search & Recovery, Subsea Construction Support, Submarine Rescue, and Underwater Equipment Design. Available resources include divers and diving systems, one-Atmosphere Diving Systems (ADS), Remotely Operated Vehicles and associated tooling systems, and turnkey engineering design and development capabilities.
------------------------------------------------

[Yusef Danet]

These same contractors are pulling up an Australian Army Black Hawk and a deceased soldier from 2900m below the Pacific. If they can find and retrieve that they should be able to pull up at least a CVR and FDR, perhaps a whole lot more plane.

They would need someone to foot the bill though, they don't work free. The Aust govt paid for the Black Hawk retrieval, even though there is unlikely to be much mystery in the circumstances of the loss.

[SIDSTAR]

Does Adam Air or the Indonesian DGAC want to find it?? If it was caused by a rudder hardover does Boeing want it found? Maybe I'm just too cynical!!

[boristhemini]

Does anyone know if the CVR or FDR have been retrieved yet. I've trawled the news networks but without success. Seems to have gone very quiet as regards the investigation and as you chaps (and chapesses) are at the leading edge of any news, I thought I'd ask here first.
Thanks

[CaptainSandL]

From Reuters

JAKARTA (Reuters) - A U.S. salvage company has retrieved the flight data and cockpit voice recorders from an Indonesian plane that crashed into the ocean in January with 102 people on board, officials said on Tuesday.

The Boeing 737-400, operated by budget carrier Adam Air, went down on New Year's day in the sea off south Sulawesi in one of the country's worst air disasters.

An underwater robot scouring the sea off Majene on Sulawesi retrieved the flight data recorder on Monday and cockpit voice recorder on Tuesday, said Tatang Kurniadi, chief of the Indonesian Transport Safety Commission.

The two devices were found at a depth of around 2,000 metres and were 1,400 metres apart, he said.

The search effort was conducted by the U.S. seabed salvage company, Phoenix International, in cooperation with the U.S. National Transport Safety Board and the Indonesian commission.

"The black box will be sent to Washington for analysis," Kurniadi told a news conference in Jakarta. The analysis to try to determine the cause of the accident could take months, he added.

The black box refers to the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder.

Efforts to recover the black box were delayed due to disagreements between the government and Adam Air over who should bear the cost.

The 17-year-old plane was heading from Surabaya in East Java to Manado in northern Sulawesi when it vanished in bad weather. The plane made no distress call, although the pilot had reported concerns over crosswinds.

[fox niner]

For how long can the FDR and CVR remain in salt water without being damaged? What are the design parameters for such situations?

[green granite]

For how long can the FDR and CVR remain in salt water without being damaged? What are the design parameters for such situations?

The design parameters appear to be:



In a crash impact test, a gas cannon fires the recorder into an aluminium honeycomb target, causing a 3400g deceleration.
In the penetration resistance test, a 225kg weight with a 6mm hardened steel spike is dropped on the recorder from a height of over 3 metres.
A static crush test applies 2.3 tonnes of force to each of the unit's six major faces.
Deep sea pressure is recreated in a special chamber filled with pressurised salt water, with the tested unit staying in the pressure chamber for 24 hours. It must then survive in a salt-water tank for 30 days.
The temperature test is fuelled by three gas-powered torches, with the recorder placed in the middle of the fireball.

The memory chips if they are not damage can be removed from a damaged unit and placed into a good one to enable the data to be extracted.

[atakacs]

fforts to recover the black box were delayed due to disagreements between the government and Adam Air over who should bear the cost.


How was this settled ? I guess this type of deep sea operation is ridiculously expensive...

Hope there will be something to extract out of those recorders...

[threemiles]

The 17-year-old plane
Doesn't sound to me as there are memory chips in there.

Anyhow, recovering these units after such a long time is a great performance.

[Rockhound]

If the Reuters report quoted by CaptainSandL is correct, surely it is high time some sort of fund be set up (by the World Bank perhaps?), which could be drawn on to pay for a salvage operation such as this without delay. Haggling over who pays back the money could be left for a later date.
Rockhound

[Rwy in Sight]

Isn't very convininent that the government has the right not to pay for a recovery operation so some accident causes annoying to the government can remain unknown?

I am wondering if a close relative of the minister or transport or the prime minister was on board this flight it would have taken so much time to retrieve the recorders?

Rwy in Sight

[fox niner]

That might seem "convenient" but I truely believe that the government of Indonesia does not have the money to pay for such a salvage operation. However, the Indonesian govt is responsible for the oversight of its civil aviation, but not at all costs.
And to be honest, the readout of this FDR/CVR is not going to have great influence on the state of jeopardy that the Indonesian civil aviation sector is in. No matter what the outcome, getting in an Indonesian plane is still not safe.
Now then. Since the FDR/CVR are brought to the USA, I suppose that we can expect a preliminary findings report in the near future, right?
The US does not have the same legislation as Canada for instance, which prevents any Canadian investigative body to reveal anything for years.
(AF358/YYZ, Kenian Airways/DLA)

[lomapaseo]

ICAO is making signifcant progress in suggesting standards for who pays. Think of it as a fund (much like how aviation is ensured) and ultimately allocated afterwards via culpability.

[punkalouver]

The Canadians and the Americans will never reveal what has been said on the CVR's but if you look at my post on the Kenya Airways thread you will see what the cause was.

[PK-KAR]

UPDATE on Adam AIr 574 that went missing in January.
NTSC and NTSB is reported to have started retrieving data from the FDR and CVR as of 10th Sep (if I remember the date correctly).
Current info is that IRS error and weather radar failure suspected.

PK-KAR

[atakacs]

Do you imply that the CVR/FDR are actually readable ?

[jet_noseover]

JAKARTA: The Adam Air black box recovered from the Majene Sea off West Sulawesi after an aircraft accident this year has been opened and can be read, said a spokesperson for the Transportation Ministry.

"I've received an SMS from chairman of the National Air Transportation Safety Commission (KNKT) Tatang Kurniadi to say the black box could be read.

"I received the message Sept. 10, local Washington time, this was only a few hours ago," Bambang S. Erva, told detik.com.

"The attempt to read the black box began last Tuesday (September 5)," he said.

An Indonesian team, with the assistance of the Washington-based National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), managed to open and read the black box of the Adam Air aircraft, which fell into the bottom of the Majene Sea off West Sulawesi.

The aircraft went messing on its way from Surabaya to Manado on New Year's Day.

Those involved with the black box reading project include Indonesian Defense Attache Brig. Gen. Erwin Barley, Air Force Attache Col. Yuyu Sutisna, representatives of the U.S. NTSB, the Federal Aviation Administration, the Australian Transportation Safety Bureau (ATSB) and Boeing.

But Bambang declined to mention the results of the black box reading.

"We cannot publish it yet... we have to evaluate it first." -- JP

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailnational.asp?fileid=20070912.H05&irec=4

[fox niner]

If I remember correctly, in case of an IRS failure, one of the consequences is....WX FAIL.
I also recall that an Adam Air landed at a wild airport because they had an IRS failure before.

[SIDSTAR]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - don't fly on any Indonesian carrier, including Garuda, if you fancy your life. As long as corruption is as endemic as it is, their airlines will never be safe and their DGAC will never exercise proper oversight. Be very aware.

[PK-KAR]

SIDSTAR,
Well, I fly them all the time... but I do have ones I avoid...
So if you ever come down here, take the bus or the ferry or the train or the car, where the chances of you getting in an accident is significantly higher...

I fly them because I have no choice... and even if there were, I'd still choose the locals but without the cowboys...

*grin*

PK-KAR

[malcolmyoung90]

Are there any updates on this saga? It has been almost 6 months since the black boxes were recovered - surely enough time to complete an analysis.

But the issue has gone very quiet.

[PK-KAR]

Nothing public yet. But I hear it's a severe Inertial malfunction, in weather, loss of attitude orientation, with the A/P still engaged on single IRU and no one was flying the aircraft as they were trying reconfirm their positions... possibly no NAVs were tuned (hey that's what happened in the Tambolaka 400NM wandering excursion)... whether that is true or not, I guess we'll have to see if the report is going to be released or not... the above is based in info leaks so far. The leak also said the aircraft started a slow bank to the right and ended up over vertical... :uhoh:

If this sounds surprising, about 1 - 2 months ago, an Adam Air captain was overheard asking his first officer on how does one notice an engine failure on take off (and in a genuinely clueless tone). :ooh:

[gengis]

PK-KAR

1) IRU toppled in severe wx/single IRU remaining - the standby attitude is an electric gyro is it not?

2) Question about how to identify an engine failure on takeoff - surely this is a wind up?????

[PK-KAR]

Gengis,
Re. #1... Indeed it is, but then, that's useless if the crew didn't realize that their individual ADIs are no longer reliable. The sad thing is, more than a few doesn't know that the IRU gives orientation data to the SG then to their ADI as well as POS input to FMC... and that the A/P takes the orientation (incl. heading) from the IRU... A/P on single IRU is a no-no... going into IMC on a single IRU is also a no-no... but this accident isn't the first or the last time an Adam Air crew did the same thing... training short cut is likely to be a contributory factor.

Re. #2... As far as I am told it was a genuine question posed by the capt to his f/o... this is an airline with a history of training short cuts, hey, they even let someone continue flying after being caught out not doing checklists... and still let him fly after 1 take off with no checklist ended up with a zero electrics dive recover at 500' AGL and a flapless landing. These types of jokers are in a minority in Adam Air, but the problem is, they still exist!

PK-KAR

[malcolmyoung90]

PK-KAR,
Thanks for the update.


whether that is true or not, I guess we'll have to see if the report is going to be released or not


Who controls whether a report is released or not? I presume in this case, the Indonesian authorities.

I am surprised to hear that there is some doubt as to whether the release of the report is going to happen. My (obviously mistaken) understanding is that all major aircraft crash reports are made public, or at least the major salient points are divulged to the media. Given so many people from so many countries generally perish in these accidents, it's no wonder why.

[MikeAlphaTangoTango]

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/aaic.htm

Lost on 1 Jan 2007; Crew became focussed on apparent IRS failure, failed to recover from UA correctly before structural failure.

[Finn47]

Here´s the news as reported by Xinhua news agency:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/25/content_7855402.htm