Licence Questions (requirements, costs, hours, LASORS etc.)

[EQUINOX]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a UK PPL which requires revalidation in a couple of weeks. I live in Sydney, Australia and so I need to do the flight test somewhere local. Is this possible?

Does anyone know any schools who do this, or whether the flight test can be carried out by any local instructors?

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[robione]

I think u should try posting in DUNNUNDA and questions,u might have a little more response.

[Stan Evil]

You can revalidate by experience if you have 12 hours in the last year, including 1 hour with a flight instructor. However, I guess the FI needs to be a UK or JAA one and you'll still need a UK Flight Examiner to sign your licence. If you want to revalidate by flight test then you need a UK Flight Examiner PPL (FE/PPL) or FE(CPL). There was one at Adelaide - don't know if he's still there.

[DB6]

If your UK PPL is more than 5 years out of date you'll need to speak to the CAA, if not then you need to do an LPC (Licence Proficiency Check) which can be done at most flying clubs, as long as they have an examiner available. Where in the UK will you be, then we can tell you where to try? If by local you mean local to Sydney then you probably can't get it done over there but why bother? Just do an LPC next time you're in UK.

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 12 March 2001).]

[Red Ronnie]

Can anyone advise me of the cheapest way to revalidate an expired IR?

Help is appreciated!

[Ex Oggie]

If you want the cheapest for just an IR standalone renewal, use an approved simulator, but not the way I would choose to go.

Cheers

[Manflex55]

Which IR are U talking about ? Rules (& prices) are quite different for FAA & JAA !

MF

[Red Ronnie]

It is for a JAA/CAA IR renewal.

The cash is running out and many companies have said that my IR needs to be current before they will consider me.

Any ideas?

[JUMBO400]

HI
The cheapest way and the best in my opinion. Is on a cheap twin £210/Hr and the Examiner for £160 that will give you a MEP renewal and IR. If I can be of any help as I'm an CRE/IRE send me message

[flyingdog]

Hi Guys !. .I need a revalidation for my multi MEP and IR.. .What is the best place to do it in the UK ... and not too expensive if possible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Flysundone]

Flying Dog,. .. .Try Plymouth School of Flying.. .. .They've a BE76 Duchess available at reasonble rates and can organise an Examiner.

[Flysundone]

Flying Dog,. .. .Try Plymouth School of Flying.. .. .They've a BE76 Duchess available at reasonable rates and can organise an Examiner.. .. .Tel: 01752 773335 and ask for Richard

[flyingdog]

Thanks very much Gear Up, very much appreciated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[IRRenewal]

Contact me directly (I am a CRE.IRR) and let me know what you are looking for as far as location, training required and aircraft is concerned. It would surprise me if we cannot sort something out.. .. .Regards

[STOL 28]

Hi,

My Multi IR is up for revalidation in July, can anyone suggest a good place do this with reasonable charges. Also looking for somewhere to do some cheap hour building in the South East, or possibly would look into buying a share.

Any Ideas ?

[Nevergo]

I'm in a similar position. Any recommendations?

Thanks,

N.

[Flysundone]

Try Plymouth School of Flying.

BE76 Duchess available at very competitive rates and can arrange examiner.

Plymouth Airport has all radio aids except radar.


Tel: 01752 773335

[OscarTangoRomeo]

You can revalidate within 3 months of expiry and www.Humberflyingclub.co.uk is as cheap as anywhere with PA44 sim and aircraft available and a freindly IRE as well.

[IRRenewal]

Feel feel to contact me on directly or through my WWW link above with your requirements with regards to ME/IR renewals/revalidations.

Regards

[Nevergo]

Thanks guys,

I'll have a look at all the suggested emporia of learning.


N.

[rolling20]

Try SOUTHEND FLYING CLUB..they have a recently qualified IR Examiner for ReValidations i hear!..AIRPORT OPEN 24hr..good facilities...

[JUMBO400]

I have been conducting SPA & MPA IR renewals/LPC's,1179,170a's for numerous years around the South East, I have access to various A/C - Aztec, Seneca, Chieftain, Beech200/90 etc (with RBIorRMI) at a very good rate. If you want no b.....it recurrent training/test give me a shout.
Arwyn Jones

[mboulton]

STLO 28 and NEVERGO

Cal me on 01202 476848 or 07799887274 and revalidate on my PA 44 FNPT 2 at Bournemouth European Aviation Charter sim building. Examiner on site only half the cost of the aircraft. Captain Mike Boulton

[hydroplaner]

JUMBO400 - I am a flying instructor (still !) and I would like to revalidate my IR / MEP in the next 3-6 weeks or so, preferably in a seneca 1.
Perhaps you would email me with your availablility/rates.
Thanks.

[email protected]

[Localiser Green]

If I renew my IR before the 1 year anniversary of the skills test pass date, it is called a "revalidation" but if I renew after that date it is a "renewal".

So what's the difference, or is there one?

Cheers.

[Stan Evil]

In the case of an IR there's not really any difference (unless you allow it to lapse for years and years) but, in the case of other ratings like the SEP and FI ratings allowing the rating to lapse by even a day changes the test requirements so renewal and revalidation become different.

[Localiser Green]

Thanks, I suspected there was no difference to the practical renewal test requirement until it got to the 5+ year point.

[Keygrip]

Satn - can you tell me what the difference is for the SEP then?

[RodgerF]

The SEP rating can be revalidated by LPC or by experience (12 hours in last 12 months preceding expiry to include 1 hour dual).

Renewal is only by LPC.

[Jagbag]

If a 12 hour experience in the preceding 12 months is required to automatically revalidate a SEP rating, what is the requirement to revalidate an IR on ME MPA, if the IR conducted is by a non JAA state?

What I mean to ask is do I have to revalidate my JAA IR every year to keep my JAA License valid or will the CAA accept my non JAA IR and flying experience in the subject year to keep my license valid?

Thanks in advance..

[Ipsos]

Hi guys !
I have to renew my MEP (without IR) and I am looking for a Partenavia a/c to do it. Any idea where I can find a Partenavia in the UK ?
Thanks ;)

[coboat]

Unless it has changed hands in the last few months, Bournemouth Flying Club have a Partenavia available.
01202 578558

[strafer]

I believe there's one at Elstree.

Here it is...

http://home.btconnect.com/flyteam/elstree/index.html

[smithgd]

I have been reading JAR FCL1 in an attempt to clarify how you renew/revalidate the JAR CPL(A).

From what I have read the CPL is valid for 5 years, after that period there is a CAA fee paying exercise needed to renew the CPL? Is that correct?

I can't find any revalidation "Skill Test" requirement? I mean for example the IR rating is revalidated by skill test every year. What about the CPL? I can't believe that after the initial skill test you never get tested again??????

Thanks
smithgd

[redbar1]

Smithgd,
You are in general right. You can't use your CPL for anything, however, without a valid Class/Type rating, which you will have to revalidate every 12 months (24 for SEP Class).

The CPL and ATPL can be regarded as licenses permitting you to transport people/goods for renumeration, they do NOT allow you to actually fly any particular Class or Type of aircraft.

Cheers,
redbar1

[smithgd]

That's what I suspected...so in theory.... if you own a plane the insurance would (I guess) be less for a CPL pilot compared to a PPL... the question is whether the cost savings over the years would cover the cost of doing the CPL?????? I would assume they are since it only cost £5000 ish to do the course. Just a thought I had that's all:ok:

[BEagle]

It's just a Eurocratic scam to wrest a re-issue fee out of you every 5 years.

The Type/Class Ratings, IR and FI ratings all have unique re-validation requirements and are to only things that really matter. The licence itself is just a piece of very expensive paper; there is absolutely no rationale behind having to get it re-issued.

[RVR800]

Actually if you have an FI rating and renew it at >5 years since expiry Lasors says you have to resit the CPL exams!!

Section H page 12 for those that dont believe me...

Presumably an ATPL working for an airline or a CPL guy para dropping would also have to do this. Ludicrous.

What is all this about. Oh silly me. It's all valuable revenue for our hard working guys and gals at Gatwick!

I can't understand the CAA obsession with constantly having to resit theory exams..unless it is revenue related..

[papichulo]

actually is the same question:confused:
i have to renew my uk jar cpl,i have not flown in the uk
sans my test,i fly in usa with a faa atp.
anybody know the procedure concerning the renewal?????????
of this very expensive booklet.

[Quarto]

Hi,
I am looking for a little advice from some wise people.
I currently hold a JAA PPL(A) and I am looking at undertaking the ATPL. I have looked into both methods (integrated and modular) and due to personal circumstances i.e. I need to keep working to help finance the studies, modular appears to be the best option. I am very fortunate in my current work (I’m a physics teacher) that I have six weeks in the summer and other holidays available. Due to a variety of reasons (university, work and geographical location) I have been unable to fly since I obtained the PPL in 2004. Consequently I have the problem that I am not current and my SEP rating is about to expire. My question is this: should I spend my time over the summer revalidating the PPL and building a few hours or should I commence the ATPL theory work with an organisation like Bristol GS?
I am genuinely unsure about the way forward and would welcome any advice that anyone has to offer. It will be gratefully appreciated.
Thanks,
Quarto

[hollywood285]

If I was you I would go and get the class 1 medical first, had my eyes checked( I were glasses) which I thought would be ok but to my misforture were to far out of balance. Of well stick to flying the spam cas, dont think thats a real bad thing, doing my twin rating this month!!

[Keygrip]

Financially?

I'd do the medical first.

Then the ground school - get it all done and dusted.

Then renew the PPL - with however much time that takes to "get it right" (consider a commercial school/instructor to get you back to speed - including the CPL level navigation and general handling).

Then go do some experience building, on your own.

Then do the instrument rating (to include the multi engine rating), then the CPL.

[wasntme]

If you don't manage to do the 12 hours leading up to the expiry of your ppl you can do a flight test with an examiner. It will involve a short cross country and some general handling.

Obviously if you do the 12 hours you will only need to do a flight check with an instructor.

It would work out cheaper if you did a couple or so hours with an instructor to get comfortable with the a/c and then when your happy do the test.

But do get the class 1 medical out of the way before committing to any ATPL/ CPL ideas.

[Quarto]

Hello,

thanks for the advice so far. To clear something up I have already taken the pilgrimage to the CAA medical department to get the Class 1 medical.

Quarto

[Re-Heat]

You can do the flight test to revalidate it in a couple of weekends - keep it current first and foremost IMHO.

You don't need 12 hours if you do the test itself with an examiner instead.

[Keygrip]

Keep it current?

What on Earth for?

If Quarto hasn't been able to keep the exciting, shiny, new licence (well, class rating) "current" for two years, then he/she/it is extremely unlikely to keep himself/herself/current for the duration of the ATPL groundschool.

Financially, I'd let it lapse and then renew it with a few lessons and a flight test when ready to do the experience building.

Just having a current rating doesn't make you fit to fly an aircraft - and if you haven't done any whilst not studying the ATPL, there's no way you are going to find time whilst doing them.

[aviate2day]

If you want to fly for a living then get moving, the job market is already busy and not withstanding some world event it is going to be busy for the next few years.
I had a ppl which was lapsed by over 2 years as I remember. I chose to revalidate it. As said just a few lessons then a test with an examiner. I needed to build about 50 hours. So I signed up with Bristol GS in August 02. When the weather was bad I studied, if it was good I flew. Passed all 14 exams by May 03 and had my CPL/IR finished by August 03. No airline jobs for guys with 250 hours at that time so I got an FI rating and instructed for a year. the money was crap but it was fantastic fun.
Depending on your circumstances you have a very flexible job. Reasonable holidays and the ability to do contract/supply work. Don't bumble through the training research your own requirements and make a plan!
Funny old thing I was flying with a guy last week who used to be/is a Physics teacher.
Send me a pm if needed:ok:

[Quarto]

Thanks to all those who responded. I have thought about what everyone has posted so far. I have just sent of an e-mail to BristolGS and plan to spend the summer vacation to study for the ATPLs (or part of!).
Cheers,
Quarto

[microfilter]

My advice is based on if you are watchin every penny. Let the SEP lapse for now- you're unlikely to need it for a while. Get the groundschool done distance learning- Bristol or Oxford. Oxford do have some very good lecturers- I'm pretty sure they use these good ones for the brush-ups. Can't speak for Bristol as didn't go there- although i'm sure it's just as good. Get the bristol database- a vast majority of JAA questions are in there- it is the best help you can get. That's it- that should get you through......good luck!

[potkettleblack]

Quarto I can count on a few fingers the people I know that have kept current whilst doing the ATPL's. One guy had a group share so in a sense had to find time to fly in order to get value for money. Another had found a discounted rate on a 152 somewhere so was happy doing a few hours a month.

Everyone else I know have all let their ratings lapse and all yearn for finishing these pesky ATPL's so we can get stuck into the real flying training.

[learboys]

Potkettleblack agreed, there are very few who can afford to fly, I can only speak for myself. There just isn't time, to much to learn and if you one of the lucky guys like us the money is seriously short and tight, so no flying, at least for 9 months, Let your PPL lapse its not the end of the world, its easy to get a PPL back so you don't mind.

I would suggest you invest in Bristol(question bank) if you want to
pass first time round. I have done my ATPL distance learning and
will be finished next week.

Good luck

[dowcipnis]

Hi,
Would appreciate some input from you guys out thre. I am looking at conducting flights from within an EU country, internally and to other EU countries in a small twin as a commercial venture.

Can someone tell me what the requirements are beyond PPL (already have :O ) and Multi. I assume Instrument would also be required but not sure if CPL will be sufficient. The flights will be for ariel sightseeing and short hop business trips for paying clients.
Also wondered what medical I would require, and should I go FAA or JAA? I have no intention of flying to the UK or in the US but will no doubt complete my training in the US.

Thanks for your input in advance.

[weis]

I would have thought you need a CPL/IR/ME/MCC at the very least. Since your'e going to be flying in an EU why bother with FAA and have the added hassle and cost of conversions etc?

[Hour Builder]

There is no need to have a MCC at all. Single pilot twins, do not require you having a MCC. MCC is not a licence endorsement, and is only required when you apply for your first multi pilot aircraft.

I think you want to do more research into what you actually want to do in the end. If you want to fly UK or any JAA registered aircraft you'll need a JAR FCL CPL (A) with a MEP rating. I do not think you'd need an Instrument rating, although having one would definately be advisable. Not having an IR, may require you to cancel a lot of flights, you'd otherwise not needed to had you obtained the IR.

If you do training for this in the US, and unless you are flying an American registered aircraft over here (N-reg), you will want to find a JAR approved school in the USA. You'd be required to have a FAA medical to complete your training there, and when you get your JAR licence issued back in the UK (or another JAA member state depending on where you did your exams, and which NAA approved your FTO) you'll need a JAR Class 1 medical.

HB

[dowcipnis]

Thanks for the feedback gus. I reckon the IR is a must due to the weather over here. The multi is something I need to look into, although to be honest I dont fancy some of the over mountain flights in a single, hence possibly getting a twin for thos trips.
First thing Im gonna do is get my Class 1 med, at 40 you never know :bored:

[FlyingForFun]

I think you have a far bigger issue than just worrying about what license you require.

In order to carry out any form of passenger-carrying flight, your company will require an Air Operators Certificate (AOC). The AOC is a document you will need to write (I've never actually seen one properly, but I gather it's usually several hundred pages long). It will describe exactly what your company will do, what routes it will fly, whether it will operate VFR or IFR, what types it will operate - and how it will ensure its pilots are appropriately qualified.

Once you've got that sorted out, you can then go on to think about your original question of pilot qualifications. The question is whether you will be happy to operate 100% VFR, or whether IFR flight will be required. If you can operate VFR, and convince the CAA of the country you are based in that you can operate VFR, then a CPL/Multi should suffice. If there will be any IFR flight, then your pilot(s) will need a CPL/Multi/IR, and 700 hours total time (the minimum for single-pilot IFR operations).

Also wondered what medical I would require, and should I go FAA or JAA?

If you go FAA, you will need an FAA medical. If you go JAA, you will need a JAA medical. If you go FAA, you may find legal problems operating American-registered aircraft within the EU - there are plenty of people who do this for one reason or another, and I'm not sure about all the legal loopholes. Since you're talking about operating in Europe, I would suggest JAA will make your life much easier.

My main point, though, is don't under-estimate what's involved. It's not simply a case of getting the license, buying and aircraft and then ferrying people around - there's far more to it than that.

FFF
---------------

[Hour Builder]

If there will be any IFR flight, then your pilot(s) will need a CPL/Multi/IR, and 700 hours total time (the minimum for single-pilot IFR operations).
where'd the 700 hours come from? Once you get IR-SPA-ME you are set to operate IR-single pilot aerosplanes-multi engine.....
My main point, though, is don't under-estimate what's involved. It's not simply a case of getting the license, buying and aircraft and then ferrying people around - there's far more to it than that.
that much is true :ok:

[mcgoo]

where'd the 700 hours come from? Once you get IR-SPA-ME you are set to operate IR-single pilot aerosplanes-multi engine.....
that much is true :ok:

Hour Builder try JAR-OPS section(ii) here:


JAR-OPS 1.960 Commanders holding a
Commercial Pilot Licence
(a) An operator shall ensure that:
(1) A Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL)
holder does not operate as a commander of an
aeroplane certificated in the Aeroplane Flight
Manual for single pilot operations unless:
(i) When conducting passenger
carrying operations under Visual Flight
Rules (VFR) outside a radius of 50 nm from
an aerodrome of departure, the pilot has a
minimum of 500 hours total flight time on
aeroplanes or holds a valid Instrument
Rating; or
(ii) When operating on a multiengine
type under Instrument Flight Rules
(IFR), the pilot has a minimum of 700 hours
total flight time on aeroplanes which
includes 400 hours as pilot-in-command (in
accordance with [the requirements
governing Flight Crew Licenses]) of which
100 hours have been under IFR including 40
hours multi-engine operation. The 400 hours
as pilot-in-command may be substituted by
hours operating as co-pilot on the basis of
two hours co-pilot is equivalent to one hour
as pilot-in-command provided those hours
were gained within an established multipilot
crew system prescribed in the
Operations Manual;
(2) In addition to sub-paragraph (a)(1)(ii)
above, when operating under IFR as a single pilot,
the requirements prescribed in Appendix 2 to
JAR-OPS 1.940 are satisfied;

[dowcipnis]

Again, I appreciate the input guys. Im only looking at this at the moment from a prospective opportunity. If the costs are not prohibitive then I may take it further. I would appreciate a link if anyone knows where I can look at operating costs according to aircraft type, sort of "for every hour wet/running & maint. costs".

I understand that there is more to this than smply get a plane and fly, but I have the time and funds so no reason not to at least check it out is there.

:) Watch this space

[ForeverFlight330]

I currently have a JAA SEP / MEP though as I have not flown in a while, both need revalidating. I obtained the licenses in 2003 / 04 respectively but since then have not been able to fly for various reasons.

I am now however looking to re validate both these licenses. I understand to keep current in a SEP its 12 hours over two years (although it has to be the second part of the two years) with 12 take off and landings and 1 hour with a flight instructor.
I assume it is the same for the MEP but rather than two years it is one.

My CAA Class 2 medical is still valid, as is my FAA Class 1 as I will be doing the re validations out in America.

After looking through Lasors and JAR-FCL 1.125 I am even more confused than the beginning and am not clear on what flight hour requirements I need to do, how many hours with an instructor and also whether I need a proficiency check or a skills test n both. :confused:


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ForeverFlight330

[Baron Von Mildred]

You will need two LPC flights one for SEP one for MEP.

[davey147]

If I have a IR and MEP ratings on my JAA PPL, will they automatically be moved over to my CPL when the CAA send it to me?

Thanks

[Hour Builder]

yup.

if your CofT's have been recently renewed and signed up by an examiner then you'll need to remove these pages from your PPL and put it in your CPL when it arrives.

HB

[davey147]

Thanks for that, thats what I thought.

I do the same with the ATPL when that arrives in many many years :)

[Felix Saddler]

What does the CPL consist of i.e, licences, training and privileges. And how far off a CPL is an ATPL? Sorry if this makes no sense i cant find away to put it.

[CCLN]

CPL can be done indepently of ATPL. ATPL starts as a CPL (ATPL frozen) until 1500hrs, after which it becomes unfrozen. Google it. Tons of information online.

[geraldn]

What does the CPL consist of i.e, licences, training and privileges. And how far off a CPL is an ATPL? Sorry if this makes no sense i cant find away to put it.
A F-ATPL is a fancy name given to a CPL/IR with an MCC.

[Hour Builder]

A F-ATPL is a fancy name given to a CPL with an MCC.
Thats actually wrong. Frozen ATPL is a fancy name for a CPL and IR obtained with the ATPL 36 month exam validity, and this in turn has banked and/or frozen the ATPL theory.

Nothing to do with MCC.

CPL can be done indepently of ATPL. ATPL starts as a CPL (ATPL frozen) until 1500hrs, after which it becomes unfrozen. Google it. Tons of information online.

Dont forget as well as 1500 hrs total, you need 500 hrs multi crew...

HB

[Tinstaafl]

Felix, this thread I wrote might help: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134076

It, along with many other useful threads, is linked to in the sticky thread at the top of this forum:

[SingSong]

Just a quick question,is there a time limit (e.g. 10 years) on obtaining the 1500 hours necessary to "unfreeze" a fATPL?

[anybodyatall]

Frozen ATPL is a fancy name for a CPL and IR obtained with the ATPL 36 month exam validity
I was wondering what that time limit is... does this mean that you have 36 months from the issue of the theory exam cert. to complete the CPL and IR?

[KrazyKraut]

If you need the authoritative answers to the questions on this thread, look in LASORS here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf

or in JAR-FCL 1 here:

http://jaa.nl/publications/section1.html .

This thread contains misinformation and isn't helpful to those who need to know the accurate answers.

KK.

[robione]

Please anyone help or piont me in the right direction for info on possibly renew or is it reval my jaa cpl. I know its valid only for 5 yrs, and that its lapsed .It says to be re-issued no later than 06/03/2006. Ive been searching on here and the belgrano website to no avail.Im out of the picture chaps,behind the curve,4 yrs no flying and im still pining for it.I rather hoped it would go away this feeling , but the dream as dead in the water as it is,keeps popping up.:confused: Whats required ?i am aware a valid class 1 is required,mine expired Jan 2004,but what else is required ?
I held a JAR-CPL-MULTI-IR_frozen ATPL_instructor-instrument instructor about 600hrs.Sat the CAA ATPL exams but got issued a JAR CPL,was in the middle of the changeover.
Ive got a feeling its gonna be bad news.
Thanks in advance people

[helimutt]

I believe section G5 in Lasors 2007 may help you but download a copy from caa website (the only free thing they give you). It has pretty much everything you need to know.

Hope it helps.


http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

[FlyingForFun]

Your Frozen ATPL consists of 4 elements: a CPL, an MEP rating, an IR and passes in the ATPL written exams.

The CPL can be renewed by sending form SRG\1102 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1102.PDF) to the CAA, along with payment. (Check the CAA website for the list of charges to find the amount of payment.) In order to be able to do this, you must have a class or type rating (either SEP or MEP, or a type rating) which has expired by less than 5 years in your license. (N.b. this is not the expiry date of your license, which you quoted in your post, but the expiry date of the rating which can be found in the ratings page of your license.) If you don't, you will have to renew your MEP rating before you can renew your license.

The MEP rating needs to be renewed with an examiner. The process depends on how long ago it expired. If it was less than 5 years, you simply do a test with an examiner, and the examiner signs the ratings page of your license. If it is more than 5 years, then you will need to do a written exam as well as the test, and then send a form to the CAA who will send you a new ratings page for your license (for which they will charge a fee).

The IR ratings also needs to be renewed with an examiner, and again how long ago your IR expired will determine what needs to be done. This can also be found in the ratings page of your license. If it's expired by less than 5 years, you can do a test with any examiner. If it's expired by more than 5 years, then the test must be done with a CAA staff examiner.
It is normally possible to combine the MEP and the IR test flights into just one flight.

The IR written exams don't need anything doing to renew them as long as your IR hasn't expired my more than 7 years. If you IR has expired by more than 7 years, then you will need to re-do the written exams.

Hope that helps,

FFF
------------------

[M80]

I think to renew the ME/IR will require an hours instruction before the flight with an examiner if it is a renovation less than five years expired. AFAIK.

[FlyingForFun]

M80,

For the MEP, there is no re-training required if the rating has expired by less than 5 years. For more than 5 years, training is requird at the discretion of the Head of Training of your school, and there is space on the test forms to specify what training was done.

For the IR, there is no mention of any re-training being required.

However, I would suggest that if Ribione has not done any flying for a while, he/she will need a little re-training, and should discuss this with a school.

FFF
--------------

[M80]

OK - FFF. However from my experience I had an ME/IR lapsed by 3 months and had to have a one hour flight with an instructor, and the signed paperwork from this needed to be presented to the examiner upon taking the renewal. This is from two weeks ago. Perhaps the examiners here have a blanket policy specifying training for any lapsed ME/IRs.

I spoke to three examiners and two schools whilst looking for quotes, and it was the same with all parties. Anyway, 600 GBP for two and a half / three hours in a Seneca and the test can't be frowned at and it's another flight in the logbook ;)

[expedite08]

Hi all,

Ive got a question about the ATPL validity period. I fully understand about the 18 months to complete, from taking the first exam, and also the 36 months to get all your flying training done.

However, it says that from passing your IR the validity goes from three years to seven years. My question is this.. If you were unfortunate enough not to get a job in seven years or wanted to become a pro instructor, after that seven years would you have to take the lot again? From the wording it comes accross as that.

Would appreciate any help or a definitive answer

Cheers

Expedite :ok:

[potkettleblack]

The way I read LASORS is that if you keep your IR reasonably current then you will NOT lose your ATPL theoretical examination credits. But if you let your IR lapse by more than 7 years then you get to do all those lovely exams again. Could be fun, there might be 20 of them the way the EU is heading:) Moral of the story I guess is that if you intend to instruct for the forseeable future and don't have any use for a current IR then let it go but beware of the time expiry and the fact that the longer you let it go the harder and more costly it will be to get it back.

Thinking more about it.....isn't there a new rule/law coming in that you can only revalidate an IR in the sim every 2nd time around? Would make the case even stronger then to knowingly let it lapse if you are going to instruct PPL stuff as it will be cheaper to revalidate it in the sim when you need it for an airline interview/sim ride etc. Otherwise it could get very costly.

[FlyingForFun]

Potkettle is correct in saying that your exams remain current unless your IR expires by 7 years or more.

Regarding renewing/revalidating your IR in the sim, it is true that there is a new rule that you can only revalidate in the sim every second year. I believe that the rule also says that you can not renew in the sim (if your IR is expired) at all - this must be done in the aircraft. I may be wrong, though... it's all new and I haven't quite got to grips with it yet.

FFF
-------------

[Hour Builder]

FFF you are referring to JAR FCL 1 amendment 5 for which the CAA has not adopted yet, amendment 3 is still current (as the ANO refers to this one).

Back to the main question.

Once CPL and IR are obtained within initial 36 months, the ATPLs are valid for 7 years from the expiry of the IR. Say you dont renew for 6 years, when you do renew you get another 7 years from expiry of that new IR validity.

Now say you dont get the IR only the CPL. You have 2 options.

1) just do IR exams again for which there are 7-but doing these does not reinstate your ATPL theory, so if you want to upgrade to ATPL you wont be able to.

2) do all ATPL exams again and get 36 months initially to get IR, and once obtained you get 7 years again.

HB

[High Wing Drifter]

The alternate Sim/Aeroplane IR reval requirement is in LASORS 2006.

[MorningGlory]

I remember worrying about this too a few years ago. Fact is 7 years is a long time because when you're qualified you'll be continually searching for your first airline job.

Luckily for you guys the industry is very good at the moment and you will probably have a job within the first year after your MCC.

All the best! :ok:

[Linda Mollison]

HWD

It may be in LASORS but, as Hour Builder says above, it is not yet in the ANO so it is not UK law yet.

Therefore version 3 of JAR FCL still stands - you can do renewals in the FNPT2and every revalidation can still be done in the FNPT2.

I checked this last week with my contact at the CAA and he confirmed it. Interestingly enough, he also said that some schools are choosing to apply the new rule even though it is not yet in the ANO.

Linda

[robin28]

hie guys
how does it work when one has a JAA ATPL and gets a job in an ICAO region , do you have to convert you license or............?

[Hour Builder]

JAA licences are to ICAO standards.

[BlueRobin]

As HB says, an ICAO contracted State should permit the conversion of a foreign licence from another contracting state. What the foreign state deems appropriate for a conversion though can depend on their standards. This is what seems to have happened when converting to JAR :rolleyes:

Which country were you considering?

[robin28]

No country inparticular but within the Southern African region. Thanks for the reply guys.

[Peter Plane]

Just on the Subject of Jaa ATP's

Was wondering once or before I have my ATP Exams..

To get a Frozen ATP Do I have to get instument rated in Europe or is it possible to get IR in Say South Africa,

Or if i do it in SA would i have to do the conversion here in the 36mnths to get a Frozen JAA ATP.

Commonsense tells me you have to do it in Europe, tho I hope theres another way around paying £11 k to do it here in the Uk..

[3bars]

The requirements for ISSUE of your CPL are as follows:

Upon completion of the CPL course, you must satisfy the following conditions in order for your licence to be issued:
Have accumulated 200 hours flight time, of which must be 100 hours PIC, 10 hours instrument time, 5 hours night time, and 20 hours of cross country time
Have completed a 300 nm cross-country flight including 2 full stop landings at airfields other than your starting point.
Hold a valid Class 1 Medical certificate
Have successfully completed all 14 CPL or ATPL theoretical knowlege exams

Since there is no P1 time on the CPL course, it follows that you must have 100 hrs PIC to commence training. Hope this helps

[Linda Mollison]

3bars is right in that those are the requirements for the ISSUE of a CPL. However, the only requirement to start training on a CPL course is to have 150 hours. You will need to have passed all 14 ground exams in order to take the test, but the rest is only for the CPL issue.

You also need to have 'met all the requirements for CPL issue' before you start your IR in order to get the 5 hours dispensation on the 55 hour course.

Linda

[chrisbl]

I suggest you get hold of this and understand it well.

Go to section D and work through the text and it will answer your questions.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

When you wait for the CAA to issue you the new license with a new aircraft endorsement, is it possible to fly without the "the new" license,
Just with your "old" license and a paper that shows that you have passed the typerating skills test until you receive the license that has the endrsment on it. Is it legal to do so? Can a JAA examiner issue you a temporary license like in the U.S.

[geordiejet]

Hi there. I am hoping to complete my ME IR and FIC in Madrid this Summer, back to back. However I have came accross a possible snag.
The minimum requirements for the FIC state I must have completed at least 200 hours of flight of which a PPL holder must have at least 150 as PIC.
I currently have 150 TT, around 100 of which is PIC. My question is this basically - would the time I get in the air during the IR count. Would I be PIC or PUT? It does however also say that a CPL holder needs only 100 hours PIC.
So will I have to do my IR, then my CPL and then my FIC last? Any advice would be much appreciated.
Kind Regards,
Alex

[potkettleblack]

Its all P/UT. Also any time spent in a sim (FNTP1 or 2 ) is not loggable in the strictest sense. It can count towards the rating or licence you are going for but you can't add it into your "hours column" in your logbook. You could always burn 50 hours out there after your ME/CPL and IR to get your time up before the FIC.

[geordiejet]

Aw :uhoh: - that is not the answer I was wanting! I think I will just get CPL first. Then I will only need 100 PIC (which I already have). What a nightmare! So am I 100% right - If I have a CPL I will only need 100 PIC? And then I can start FIC training straight after my IR.

Why is life to blinking hard!?!?!?!? :ugh:

[Helipilot1982]

Welcome to Aviation!!!!

[Blinkz]

As I read LASORS, there isn't an hours requirement if you hold a CPL licence. Its states that you need 200hrs TT with 150hrs PIC if holding a PPL.

Have at least a CPL(A) or completed at least 200
hours of flight time of which 150 hours as
Pilot-in-Command if holding a PPL(A).

[Blueskyrich]

Hello everyone,

Now this very lucky boy has completed his ATPL theory (one hell of a feeling let me tell you - 18 months of distance learning hell!), I need to focus on the next stage.

Now, I'm hoping that some of you lovely people out there can help with regards to the ME/CPL stage.

I'm a modular student and I'm having some issues in clarifying the minimum amounts hours I need to firstly begin the ME/CPL module and to have the CAA to sign me off?

The reason I ask is that some schools quote a minimum of 70hrs PIC and 150TT to start the training, with others quoting a figure of 100hrs PIC to begin.

Then, once you have successfully completed a CPL, can you wait until you complete an IR to save money in CAA fees? Does this make any difference with regards to the minimum hours you need for licence issue.

Whilst LASORS etc. show certain figures, it all seems a bit contradictory - can anyone clear this up?

Many thanks,
Bluesky

PS. To anyone struggling with those ATPL exams - hang in there. Keep grafting. Don't lose sight of what you want. There is hope and there is light at the end of the tunnel. Believe in yourself and it CAN happen!

[preduk]

Congrats on passing your ATPL Theory! :ok:

[PIGDOG]

There are different requirements for Integrated students than for modular.

Since you say you're modular; you need to have 100 hours PIC, and have a total of 150 hours. It's all there in Lasors, it just takes some headbashing to figure it out.

As far a I know you can wait and send off the two together and save a bit of money. You'll need it!

[philltowns]

Yes, well done. Its a big stepping stone to get your theory out of the way.
From the way I read LASORS, the requirements to start a modular CPL course are 150hrs TT. There doesn't appear to be a PIC requirement specifically for starting the CPL.

The requirements for CPL issue are:

200hrs TT, including...
100hrs PIC for modular (70 for integrated)
20hrs VFR X-C, including your 300nm nav
10hrs instrument dual time, no more than 5 of which is in a sim
5hrs night flight (3 dual, 1 X-C, 5 t/o + ldgs)


Different schools ask for different pre-course requirements. I'm about to start the CPL, and don't have the X-C time they ask for. On speaking to them, they said I could still start the course, I'd just need to make up the hours before test.

Hope that's of use.

[philltowns]

If its of any use, I used LASORS, Section D, Part 1.2(D). Its on Page 5 of Section D. Or if you've downloaded the whole LASORS document, page 147.

[jonjon]

Hi There,

Well done for your ATPLs.

Having finished mine in February and being almost done with my CPL now, the requirements are:

150 hours total to START the training.
100 PIC to get your license issued.

It means that you don't need 100 hours to start and even get to the skill test, you only need the hours when you send your logbook to the CAA to get your license validated. You still need to have the 300 nm qualifying flight, your night rating of course (again, not to start the course, but to present the skills test).

Some guys here don't have the 100PIC and others still have to finish off their night rating, they only firm requirement to start the course is 150hrs total.

Hope it helps a bit

[balboa]

Saying that and on a similar note, what are requirements for starting IR if you do it that way round...some people go for that option- make up some time then do CPL?

[philltowns]

Looks like a PPL(A) with night rating. Also says 50hrs X-C time, at least 10hrs of which should be in aeroplanes, but I'm unsure whether that's to start the course, or for IR issue.

[tony2F]

If you look in Jar fcl 1 or lasors for the 100hr pic requirement under an integrated CPL/IR program they allow the 100 PIC requirement to be made up of 50 hr vfr and 50 ir pic (supervised -under the hood). Is there any allowance in the modular system for an amount of hours flown under the hood as pic (supervised) to count toward the total?? thanks

[Blueskyrich]

Many thanks for the quick responses to my questions :ok:

Just out of interest, could anyone tell me how hours flown whilst doing the ME/CPL are logged?

Ta muchly again!
Rich

[potkettleblack]

Flying hours during your training are logged as P/UT. Also any hours spent in an FNTP1 or 2 can go into your logbook for the purposes of licence issue but cannot be added into the "total" column.

[jamestkirk]

Sorry. Don't really want to start a thread on this, so if someone PM's me, thanks.

I cannot find it in lasors, what a surprise!.

Do you have to have a current IR to do a type rating.

I was asked the question but have no idea.

Thanks

[TheFlyingDJ]

affirm, you at least need a valid me-ir in most cases

[stephen_b]

yeah an ME IR is well and truly needed. I had a friend who went to do his A320 TR and then realised his IR had expireed resulting in his TR place being given to someone else!!

[TheFlyingDJ]

AUCH... well, if you forget your licence validity...

anyway, common sense: no IR? no commercial flying. Makes sense?

[Han 1st Solo]

I think this is where current and valid, come into play. As I understand it the CAA say that your IR is valid for 5 years after which if you want to renew it, it is classed as an initial and has to done with a CAA examiner. It remains current for 1 year and if renewed within the 5 years then can be done by an IR renewal examiner who doesn't work for the CAA. A friend of mines IR was not current when he did his type rating but was classed to be valid by the CAA. I do believe it depends on individual company policy though, that of course may differ from the CAA. I am currently undertaking a type rating and my IR lapsed in January. When I asked if the company wanted me to renew it before I started my type rating I was told that this wasn't necessary. As part of the type rating you will be issued with a Multi Pilot IR, so if you then wish you needn't renew your single pilot IR ever again if all you intend on flying is a multi pilot aircraft.

I standby to be corrected!

regards,

Han.

[potkettleblack]

Its in LASORS. Section F4 page 18. Under section b of the section on pre-requisite conditions for training you will see that you need a current and valid multi engine instrument rating along with 100 hours PIC and a few other bits and pieces.

Use the "find" function in adobe and answers to all these sorts of things take stuff all.

[jamestkirk]

thanks everyone.

[BillieBob]

I think this is where current and valid, come into play.Not any more. JAR-FCL says, quite clearly, that a 'valid' MEIR is a pre-entry requirement for the first MPA type rating course. It also says, quite clearly, that an IR is 'valid' for 12 months. Even the UK CAA has, at long last, come into line on this one - there is no longer any distinction between 'valid' and 'current'. To start a first MPA type rating course, you must have passed an IR Skill Test or Proficiency Check within the preceding 12 months.

[Lightheart]

I am to apply to the CAA for one.

Does anyone know if you should have your JAR CPL license first or is this just a piece of paper that's issued and carried separately?

[Longchop]

Does anyone know how much it costs for the issue of the INITIAL JAR ATPL in the UK???
Cant find the info anywhere....Lasors, CAA, SRG.....no idea!!
thanks!
:ugh: :{ :ugh:

[Token Bird]

Do you mean the upgrade from frozen to full ATPL? Or do you mean the issue of a CPL/IR?

[BEagle]

See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_SCharges_prof_07_08.pdf

[Longchop]

216 quid

Thanks Beagle

:ok:

[dartagnan]

i am not willing to pay this scandalous amount of money just to change the color of my license:eek:

we dont need an ATPL anyway...:suspect:

[chlong]

you spent all that money on training and you cant afford 216 stg to get the top license, i dont know we should give up.!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[potkettleblack]

Well clearly he wants to be an f/o for the rest of his career then.

[Lightheart]

I am to apply to the CAA for one.

Does anyone know if you should have your JAR CPL license first or is this just a piece of paper that's issued and carried separately?

My question seems to be overlooked. Any ideas anyone?
Thanks.

[maxalphaboy]

Dear All,

I am currently hour building in the states, I have been advised by my UK School to get my 5 night hours done whilst I am out here, in order to meet the requirements for my CPL issue. However I have a few questions I need
help with?

I know that Lasors states I need 5 Hours in total 3 of which must be dual
training which includes 1 hour dual navigation + then 2 additional hours of which i must do 5 TO's and Landings as PIC.

My questions are:

1: Am i required to do the 3 dual instructions 1st, then continue with the
2 hour PIC after, or can I do say 1hr Dual 1hr Solo then 1 Hour Dual etc

2: After completing the 5 hours night flying and being signed off can I then continue to fly at Night or do I need it adding to my Licence before I
Can continue flying at night?

3: Is the time logged as PUT for the dual or can it be logged as PICUS??

Thanks

MAB