Aer Lingus - 3

[snipes]

Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233725&page=16

EI-RB

But you want EI to increase their customer service to the pax on the long haul service?

So you expect 8 girls to be able to look after you even better than before with less resources?

You get what you pay for. Better service needs more girls, means higher airfares. Then you all start moaning.

Staff numbers reduce, service degrades and you moan.

Sheesh.

[EI-BUD]

I was reading some interesting comments on this forum asking why does EI not chase RE off the CWL DUB route. Well it amazed me that EI did not jump in B4 RE took it on.

I would take example from the ORKDUB route. RE maintain that FR are not making a profit on this route. And if this is true its great news for RE . If its true its also is a saving grace for regional airlines on thin routes. If EI took on DUBCWL they would probably only do a daily rotation. The business traveller would much prefer the thrice daily RE operation.

Although I dont know for sure I imagine ORK BHX is a mainly leisure route. This is why EI could beat off the competiton with a daily flight . Its hard to say ... What does anyone else think. One thing that comes to mind reading the previously posted comments is that EI and FR in particular are finding many routes too thin to justify a 738 or 320 operation.

Liverpool/Kerry ,Dublin/Humberside are examples of viable routes (according to CAA numbers), but viable for the right airline and the right machine. Ie FLYBE q400 or RE ATR?? Can anyone predict any FR routes that might suffer the same fate as LPLKIR or DUB HUY ??

It is also interesting to note the FR on the DUBABZ route have reduced the frequency for the winter , 5 flights a week, compared with previous 7(although most of last winter was 73S not738). I think the RE DUBINV is having a negative impact on ABZ route. I can FR axe it in time and RE take it over??? Anyone agree????

[ryan2000]

Ryan air have far deeper pockets than RE and I will be amazed if they blink first and concede defeat on ORK DUB. In the Summer they were getting very high yields on ORK DUB with fares of up to 129 each way +charges.

[EI-DHC]

It is also interesting to note the FR on the DUBABZ route have reduced the frequency for the winter , 5 flights a week, compared with previous 7(although most of last winter was 73S not738). I think the RE DUBINV is having a negative impact on ABZ route. I can FR axe it in time and RE take it over??? Anyone agree????

I, and other members of my family, are frequent passengers on the DUB-ABZ route. Each time I have travelled this route, the flight has been at least 75% full, if not more. Granted, the last time I went there was late last year when RYR were still using the 732s. I have been told, however, that the route, now served by the 738s, is seeing quite good loads. Now I'm not sure about the yield their getting, but I am quite suprized to hear RYR are reducing the frequency of the route. There has always been a large number of students and oil workers using the route.

[bigmac]

Intersting report on to-day's Indo that on the busiest day (the 22nd) for Dublin airport, Ryanair cancelled 18 flights wheras EI cancelled only one! Just as well that the takeover failed otherwise the LHR slots would be gone and on foggy days it's the boat train for Irish homecomers.
Well done to the lads and lassies who worked long hours to get the punters home.

[akerosid]

Well done, EI. I was one of those coming through LHR, on the 159 - which yesterday was operated by a 332. Great crew, never made to feel I got in the way of airline's drive to make money - just plain, simple courtesy and humour. For an airline, like FR, that puts a price on everything, they're the things - something without cost - that they might like to focus on. Well done EI!

[Just a spotter]

akerosid

quick, slightly off topic question ... which gate in LHR T1 did they roll the 332 up to? .. I'm guessing it was 90.

Cheers

JAS

[akerosid]

A very interesting question, JAS - I had assumed it would be 90 myself, when I checked in and when we were put on buses and taken for an airport tour ...

This took us through Terminal 3's baggage handling area and then underground, towards the remote parking area between T3 and T5 - where the VS aircraft usually park; our stand was just beside the taxiway to 9R. We were delayed quite a bit, but - me being me - having a fine view of acft taxying for t/o, I wasn't too upset!

I remember the first woman 747 captain, Lynn Rippelmeyer of (then) People Express, saying that the best thing about flying on a horrible, overcast day, was taking off and then, going into the sun above the clouds and so it was - cloudbase was about 500-1000', then, after a few seconds, into the blue - with the winglet catching the sun as we banked around for the Compton SID.

[airbourne]

332 on LHR, wow one of their a/c wasnt tech! Now before anyone says it, yes I am being really sarcastic cos Im working on Xmas Eve!

So what was the condition of the 330? Would you let do (and it does) the TA routes? Looking at it, do you think EI should be worried bout the competition and their product? How mch do you think EI needs to improve?

[akerosid]

I have to say, in all fairness, I was thoroughly impressed. The aircraft, although it didn't have PTV screens (not that you'd need them on an LHR flight anyway) was perfectly clean inside and out. The cabin crew were excellent - unfailingly patient and pleasant. The inflight service on that route was just the normal fare to London, but I got a thoroughly delicious chicken stuffing sandwich.

All in all, the basics are there - superb staff and a fine aircraft. I have to say that (mostly because I live in Jersey) I haven't flown EI t/a for years, so I can't really complain, but certainly, the cabin crew I met on that flight are people I'd be more than happy to travel with to the US. Can't really comment on meals. So, really, get the IFE right and they're just as good as the top line and better than most.

Happy Christmas one and all!

[ryan2000]

I've flown with Aerlingus on numerous occasions this year. The cabin crews are as friendly and professional as ever. I particularly like flying from Cork because the crews based there get to know the regular travellers. Disappointed though that the airline appears to have reversed its decision to base a 5th 320 there in 2007.

[akerosid]

Just looking at various threads on A.net ... while I'm waiting for Killinascully ;) - and it looks as if 2007 is going to see some pretty significant orders for 787s particularly; US carriers, led by UAL, are said to be close to a decision and with significant requirements in terms of numbers, the smaller airlines are going to be in a difficult position; Boeing will bend over backwards for an airline like EK, UA or BA, with a requirement for 50+ aircraft; will they be as accommodating to a smaller one? If Boeing "knows" it can reel in the likes of EK (and in fairness, it's not sure of that yet), BA, various Middle Eastern aircraft, not to mention "top up" orders from the likes of SQ, QF, AC, etc once the -10 is launched, will they really feel an absolute need to go out of their way for a much smaller aircraft like EI?

More significantly, as these larger aircraft orders are placed, that means EI is pushed further and further out; 2012 production slots are largely filled and 2013 slots are also in strong demand. Given that EI originally wanted to order aircraft for 2011-12 service entry, what is the delay? Anyone know when we might see white smoke from EI HOB?

[Just a spotter]

Cheers for that akerosid! I'm now mad jealous ... ground tour of LHR for Chimbo! Have done the bus transfer from T1 to T4 a few times ... don't get to see much though!

As for 787's ... don't get carried away .. one hasn't flown yet and the new composite fuselage construction may ultimetly cause serious operational issues following "bump repairs" after they get into close quarters with ground handeling trucks. Added to that the unknowns about large composite pressure vessels exposed to external forces (normal a/c aerodynamic and drag forces) and we'll wait and see. Metal fatigue wasn't fully understood pre Comet and a price was paid. Compisites don't give warnings like metal of a possible failure (my knowldege of compisites is limited and I will stand corrected).

Personally I'm not 100% convinced I'd want to be on one. But that's just me.

Either way, TA on EI isn't hell .. I do DUB-LAX at least once a year and the staff are generally polite, friendly and professional. I've also flown longhaul on BA, KLM and AA, they're no better, in fact, my personal experience the "friendlyness" on both BA and AA were well below that on EI.

Certainly improvements can be made. IFE would be 'nice'. Most PAX just want an on time flight, clean aircraft, polite staff, decent food and for god sake, let them know well in advance if it's going to be bumpy!

As for A350 vs 787 ... if EI have a plan, and the plan allows time/space to evaulate both types in operations with other carriers .. .then wait and see makes perfect business sense (and yes, I know the A350 looks like it will use composites too, all be it in a different construction).

JAS

[akerosid]

I'm no expert on composites/materials either, but the material being used on the 787 (and A350) isn't being used for the first time; won't it also have been tested on previous aircraft. Given the litigious nature of the world in which we live, I doubt if they would take that chance if there wasn't an immense amount of testing and data derived from experience.

I'm just putting my faith in the fact that Boeing is building it and Qantas (among many others) is buying it!

I don't really think it's viable to wait until both aircraft are in service, particularly as it will be 2012 before the 350 is in service. They will really need to be making a decision in the very near future. I think the main feature of either deal is that the manufacturer should be a partner in EI's growth, i.e. if their product isn't available until 2012-13, making sure EI has a plan in place for fleet growth in the interim.

The fear at the back of my mind is that with all of the delays, particularly with the SNN stopover issue (and I know that's not EI's fault), the economy could have reached the rest of the wave and begin to plateau before EI is really in a position to put its long haul growth plans into effect and by then also, other carriers (possibly inc. SIA) would have started services to DUB.

[johnrizzo2000]

Either way, TA on EI isn't hell .. I do DUB-LAX at least once a year and the staff are generally polite, friendly and professional. I've also flown longhaul on BA, KLM and AA, they're no better, in fact, my personal experience the "friendlyness" on both BA and AA were well below that on EI.

Certainly improvements can be made. IFE would be 'nice'. Most PAX just want an on time flight, clean aircraft, polite staff, decent food and for god sake, let them know well in advance if it's going to be bumpy!

Exactly!!!! I have always said that EI's best assets are its crew!!! They are some of the best, friendliest and most proffesional crew around. If they improved their IFE and introduced a new J class, they could be as good as any airline!!! Everybody knows about the friendliness of the Irish!!!:} I

[airbourne]

EI's TA is better than COA's!


Could you expand on that a bit further, its a bit general. Its like saying black is better than blue!

[Flame]

They are some of the best, friendliest and most proffesional crew around. I

You must be joking!!!

[akerosid]

I'd have to support JohnRizzo's comment; my personal experience, over a long number of years, is that EI's cabin crew are very good and professional. I've flown with a good few airlines and I still rate EI's crew very highly - credit where credit is due.

EI has just issued is Nov 06 statistics:

http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?id=200612280700205918O

Pax up, load factor down.

[johnrizzo2000]

I think CO's and EI's economy product are virtually the same, with EI's crew being better. Their J class is completly different, with CO's being far superior!

[akerosid]

Hopefully, EI's will be considerably better once the new J Class has been launched. I'm still concerned that the emphasis seems to be on J Class rather than Y Class. Replace the old cloth seats with new seats similar to those on short haul routes (and with PTVs). As to the older 333s, not sure what they can do there?

There is supposed to be a meeting in the new year, with EU transport ministers and airlines, to discuss the US Open Skies issue and that will be crucial for EI. If they can get some indication from this meeting what they can do for next Summer, in terms of growth, it should at least give them some idea (and in particular, extra time) as to what they can do and what extra capacity would be needed. There is talk of two (formerly three!) new 330s for next Summer (2008), so if they could get hold of 333s, 332s or even 340s for one year, it would allow the new routes to be opened.

The one question I have is this: what about the existing four A330-300s, which are very early models; will these be replaced by new aircraft and if so, when? I guess this would be included in whatever deal is worked out with Airbus or Boeing. What I'm trying to get at is that when EI talks of (say) 10 aircraft for 2008, that doesn't necessarily include replacement of the existing fleet, so the number of aircraft it needs is greater.

[airbourne]

I can tell you when things will change.......when its too late and the numbers start to go down on the T/A routes. This whole thing has pissed me off no end! I know, you know they have a shoddy service but still the insist on not doign anything about it! So they will when its too late!

[tyne22]

Do you know the roster at Aer Lingus
Thanks

[Shamrogue]

Just returned from the US yesterday.

Out CO and back DL. Both airlines were exceptional. No problems with transfers in either EWR or JFK. Bags everything. Sadly in the last 7 trips to the US this year I've flown everyone but EI. On the T/A I find their service is not nearly what it once was. Now neither CO or DL have seat back TV's etc. But I found staff to be excellent, on the ground, and on the a/c.
So I would now fault EI, check-in, the ticket desk- can be a nightmare and god do they love handing off problems. Cabin crew - effecient and then it depends on who you meet as to friendly or not.
Seats - I find them tight. Now I will say I find AF on the 330's equally so. So I'm assuming it's something to do with cabin widths etc. But I'm sure I'll be corrected. Ringing EI.com is a giggle at times again.
Anyways on the plus side.
On Europe - best airline from Ireland. The E-tickets are magic, seats comfy, and in fairness - operationally I will say they do are always spot on. It's just the frills - which have been trimmed a touch too far I think. Indifferent staff etc I feel comes from the top down. Plus in a customer focus issue world - if your trying to deal with pax on a "target" basis where alittle extra time is needed it might be skimped on. Again I'm sure I'll get rattled - I'm sure it's not all target orientatated. But my question is EI trying to become FR part 2? or is it trying to be a "hybrid low cost" or finally is there an ambition to be a "Full service" airlines and Mr. M just hasn't got the whole show there yet?

Sincerely,
Shamrogue.

[johnrizzo2000]

I would normally fly Aer Lingus T/A a couple of times per year, but this year I only flew them once in coach to Boston, with CO getting the rest of my business. Premier on EI isnt worth the money.

EI's crew are always great on European services. I'm not sure why they are different on Longhaul. I know their crew operate both short-haul and long-haul, so it could be somthing to do with that.

I hoped Mannion would turn EI into a mini-EK with great T/A service like EK, and feed traffic onto its euro routes. I would love to see EI turn Jetblue, with PTVs on its 320's!!!!! If only!!!!!:}

[Just a spotter]

Like all other operators running medium and long haul routes EI face the same challanges ...

1) The driving down of air fairs by the LoCo's (nearly all on short haul) with the knock on expectation by customers of low fares on medium and long haul routes.

2) The need to control costs to match the customers price expectations. This has resulted in the cutting of "Frills". Now, some might calim the cuts have been too deep. Others may say they've not been deep enough and given the perceived profitibly on particurly TA routes, there is room for further lower fairs and damn the quailty.

3) Maintaining some level of service while addressing points 1 and 2.

There certainly is a place in the market for a quailty service provider on medium and long haul routes ... short hop is lost forever to LoCo's and when you think of it, most short haul hops are about the same duration a a provincial bus route; so why pair for more.? Virgin have estabished a business model for quality medium and long haul ... but will others be brave enough to follow ... ?

JAS

[akerosid]

EI, in my experience, has a very good product on short haul and I guess that with new technology, such as online check in and seat selection, they can reduce their costs further; however, it has always been said that with increased competition from FR, in particular, the development of long haul would be of critical importance.

The big issue in the early part of next year (starting with a meeting of EU transport ministers and major EU carriers, in Brussels) will be the approach taken to new O/S negotiations with the Americans. It is of crucial importance that Ireland's case is put in a very direct, forthright manner and that if EU/US talks fail in late January, Ireland can put into effect a Plan B. If Ireland's agreement with the US includes a "community clause" (allowing any other EU airline to begin services from Ireland to the US, once O/S is agreed), there is no real reason for the EU to object. If EI can get the green light by the end of January for expansion this Summer, then maybe some growth can be achieved this year.

Judging from comment on another site, it appears that there is some concern among EI employees at a lack of information from senior management about developments and also, the development of long haul (including the new fleet order). I can only guess that the reason for the latter may be that they're waiting for the end of January, so as to tie their short-medium term needs into any long term fleet deal, with Airbus or Boeing, but that carries with it the risk of losing production slots to other carriers.

I think, one way or another, we should have more concrete info by the end of January.

[EI-BUD]

I agree with many of the comments about Aer Lingus staff being friendly. On all flying occasions with Aer Lingus I have found the crew to be so nice. Earlier this year I was on a Manchester/Dublin sector and the flight attendant remembered me from a week earlier on a Heathrow/Dublin flight. There is a warmth about them and it reminds me of the old advertising campaign that EI had way back that said something like you are in Ireland when you board an EI flight!!!!

Sounds a bit philosophical!!!

Have a great new year to everyone on pprune!

[ryan2000]

Aerlingus are strangely mute on the bilateral. If MOL was facing an obstacle of this magnitude, he'd be on every radio station in the country in an effort to gain support for his position.

On short haul EI faces a major challenge from Ryanair. Its aircraft utilisation could be far better. For instance at Cork 2 of its 4 based 320's only do two rotations a day.

[CarbHeatIn]

In fairness, sectors down and back to places such as Tenerife and Lanzarote are quite long whereas Ryanair only serve shorter UK sectors from Cork.

[ryan2000]

True, but most airlines fly a mix of short haul and medium haul in order to get at least 3 round trips per day. Maybe EI should do more UK provencial flights from Cork.

[johnrizzo2000]

GLA, EDI and MAN could fit easily into its timetable and increase utilisation for its based A320's in ORK. There fleet there is under-utilised, which is a shame!:ugh:

[CarbHeatIn]

An issue EI has is not having flight deck crew based at cork, so when an aircraft comes back from Tenerife for example, it's off to the Clarion for the crew as they're out of hours.

[ryan2000]

If Ryanair ever go head to head with them in Cork, their crews won't be staying in the Clarion or any other hotel.

It's time for EI to base crews in Cork. I'm sure the crews would rather be going home to either Dublin or Cork every night. The novelty of staying in hotels wears off very quickly.

[INLAK]

Why not buy a few pilots and base them down in Cork with some of the new guys they are recruiting too. .

A Cork base would be a great development, but it's just not as simple asmoving people there and opening it. Many agreements and working conditions have to be re-worked and formulated to fit in with the new procedures.

[ryan2000]

I agree, INLAK but with 4 320's based there it surely makes a lot of sense to move some pilots to Cork. I doubt if other low cost operators would use hotels if they had 4 planes based at an airport.

I'm all for consultations and dialogue but I'm genuinely concerned that EI will come under huge pressure in 2007 if change in both its long haul operations and short haul practices doesn't happen.

Cork needs a strong Aerlingus presence. By the way I'm told the airport reached the 3 million mark for 2006 earlier today.

[chrism20]

If they were to ask for volunteers and offer a 'generous' reloc package do you think there wolud be many takers?

[CarbHeatIn]

For the amount of money EI spend on hotel accomodation a year in cork they could use this money to persuade pilots to live in Cork and after a year you would have very good savings ! I can recall it being mentioned before on another thread that EI would open a base at Heathrow when open skies comes into effect and base a A330 there but i cannot see this happening.

I would hazard a guess that EI spend more on hotel acomodation a year in London than in Cork.

[Just a spotter]

There's been quite a bit of conjecture on this thread about the 330's and their perceived propensity to "go tech".

Does anyone have a definitive list of the tech issues over, say, the last 18 months or so that have cause aircraft to be pulled from service? I'm just curious as to whether the speculation about the "generally ageing aircraft" is correct (which I'm not so sure about) or whether it might be related to a single system.

I remember seeing 330's, on more than one occasion, doing engine starts in Dublin before departure belching out clouds of white smoke and getting calls from the tower about it.

JAS

[Kestrel_909]

I notice a couple of odd EI flights at the minute due out of Shannon, EIN2133 to JFK as an MD11, and a EIN2135 to Boston as MD11? MD11 filing for an A330 temporarily, or one-off special charters being covered?

[MarkD]

the EI 330s are probably fairly high cycle at this stage due to the Shannon stop and because EI are now using them on European routes too like AGP. Before that they were probably getting more downtime and more preventative maintenance? Maybe someone working for EI could comment?

[Kestrel_909]

We've seen in or around 10 breakdowns this year with EI the A330's must be taking some batterings having extra landing at Shannon.


Gosh, that's more than 1 a day then already this year:} Sorry, but thanks for the information. When is the next A330 due to be deliveried?

[akerosid]

OK folks, this could be it; the EU and US sides will meet tomorrow, to discuss the Open Skies issue. The EU airlines and government were supposed to be meeting together (not sure when that happened), to provide "direction" to the EU as to how it should proceed.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0109/openskies.html

Needless to see, this is CRUCIALLY important to EI. If the EU stuffs things up again, it's very bad news; the question in that situation is, "what can Cullen do"; he has said he's willing to wait to the end of the month (I thought tomorrow's meeting was actually taking place at the end of this month, but from EI's perspective, the sooner the better) and then he'll speak to the Americans directly; as long as there is a "community clause" in place (which would allow other EU carriers to fly Ireland - US once O/S is agreed, that should be acceptable).

The EU must see that there is absolutely no advantage to it from holding Ireland and EI back.

The Americans are of the view that, "look guys, there's nothing we can do about ownership, so let's just press forward". Heathrow could be the sticking point, but maybe that could be solved "offline", i.e. in separate meetings. Somehow I think that will still be a sticking point and I think the British govt (spurred on by BA) will be insisting on some form of ownership deal; however, with qualified majority voting, they will only be one voice. With US airline ownership off the table, it should help clarify matters. Let's hope, for EI's sake that it does ...

(Incidentally, the RTE story is wrong with the acft; the new acft come into service in May and June; of course, if we get Open Skies, EI will need to source more aircraft, to allow SFO and other gateways to open this Summer.)

[akerosid]

God, you're a hard man, begrudging the poor souls 80c! Maybe this acts as an incentive to encourage people to charge the money for baggage, in which case the airline may actually recoup more?

Anyway, talks took place today in Brussels between the EU and US; ATI reports little/no progress, but I'm wondering if the intention today was to talk about a way forward and it wasn't necessarily expected that a deal would be done - as good as that would have been.

This report is a little more upbeat:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/?jp=CWSNMHAUAUKF

I would expect that the next step would be that the EU Commission will meet transport ministers from various member states, to discuss progress and the way forward. Hopefully, reality will have set in, in that it should be recognised that what's on the table is as good as it's going to get. The UK will no doubt be asking for more, as a quid quo pro for access to LHR, but in all honesty, I tend to believe (or hope) that other member states realise that the UK's airlines are really trying to do anything they can to prevent a deal; the last thing BA or VS want is every other US airline and new US carriers joining them on the LHR-US routes.

Our minister said last month that he is willing to wait until the end of this month at the latest; looks like that will have to go into the first week of February. Time is getting extremely tight for EI to be able to add new routes this Summer, so I would hope that EI is ready to go. If talks break down next month, the govt will just have to approach the US directly, if necessary at a head of govt level, to get things moving. If it takes EI ordering 787s as an "incentive", so be it. However, I am a little more optimistic now that a deal can be done next month - but it's good to ensure that there is a Plan B in place.

[Bearcat]

If it takes EI ordering 787s as an "incentive", so be it. However, I am a little more optimistic now that a deal can be done next month - but it's good to ensure that there is a Plan B in place.

Could'nt agree more:D ....rumours abound now of 767s to arrive until the 787s are ready....all crystal ball stuff.


Akerosid...you are a soldier on this topic and the whole episode is worse than watching paint dry. Many of those on the inside are concerned at what appears as a disappearance act on Mannions part in recent times. Either he is going to pull the rabbit out of the hat soon or he is counting the days till his contract is up....next summer?? Just stoney silence from him and his ace management team.

[akerosid]

Thanks Bearcat; I do try! What worries me is that we're getting dangerously close to the time limit for planning for the Summer. Usually, as you know, Summer schedules are planned around Oct/Nov and even if a deal is done next month, there is still the matter of sourcing aircraft (given that the two to be delivered in May/June are already committed?) and doing all the marketing and bits and pieces to get the new routes up and running.

If Open Skies went through and EI were not in a position to take advantage of it, I think the investment community would very quickly be calling for his head. However, I think as employees, you in Aer Lingus should be given some info (I'm not an EI employee, just an enthusiast); I'm surprised there isn't some news coming out - and you're not the first EI person I've heard speak about the lack of info from "on high".

My worry is, of course, if things go wrong and the Brits (who are the single biggest obstacle to an Open Skies deal) press for something unreasonable. It is absolutely vital that EI gets something out of this Summer; if worse comes to worst, perhaps an Asian route might be considered.

As for new aircraft, well, with each new order (for example, Jet of India last week), EI slips down the production slots. I know there are 787s that are not yet committed and it could well be that EI has slots reserved and is just waiting for the green light, however (a) that's usually wishful thinking on my part and (b) it's not going to help them this Summer.

Fingers crossed; next month is probably THE most important month for EI in a very long time.

[akerosid]

That's what we're all waiting to find out, EI-RB; it's going to be one or the other. (By the way, the 787 illustration is out of date; they've now gone for the less dramatic tail.)

Anyway, re the 767 rumours, while I obviously don't have any hard info, it would seem unlikely, because this would mean introducing another type; same goes for the 777, about which there were strong rumours a good while ago. The 767/777 would be intended as transitional aircraft, meaning that there could be a stage where the aircraft would be operating 330s, 767/777s and "New Type" all at once and I don't think the economics of that on such a small fleet would be attractive. In any case, the 767 seems to be a rather retrograde step from the A330.

I don't think a Boeing deal precludes more A330s (or even A340s) being operated, so if a Boeing deal were done, it would probably see more of these being added. The 787-8 is around the same size as the A332 (pax capacity wise) - a little shorter, but wider, so it's "six of one, half a dozen of the other". However, the key point is, do the deal soon, before more production slots slip away.

Apparently, the Americans are talking about a June deal, so I don't know how this will impact the O/S talks and in particular, our position. My guess is, "we're stuffed" for this Summer; I think it is entirely reasonable to ask that we could introduce a transitional arrangement for this Summer, but I just don't see it happening. So BLOODY frustrating.

[EI-BUD]

As a Boeing Supporter I was so sad when the last EI 737 left the fleet. I really do hope the Beoing will be chosen for the future requirements.

The 787 is a very exciting project , the A350 is not as inspiring to me! Fingers and toes crossed with me !EI-RB thanks for the 787 ? in EI colours, nice impression.

I was reading in Flight International that Robert Boyle of BA has said the if the new 747( and some 787s) is chosen then the 777 will be the transitional aircraft and similarly if they choose A380/350 the Airbus 330 will be the transitional aircraft. Again I am hoping BA will keep Boeing equipment for Long haul . They have completely ruled out the A340 !!! Interesting.

Airbus A330 is not one of my prefered aircraft and I wouldnt like to see it in BA colours!! What does anyone else think ?

Whatever BA does I can see EI following suit.

[ryan2000]

Things move slowly in Aerlingus so I doubt that anything will change in 2007 even if there is an early open skies deal.

[akerosid]

It seems that the Americans are now talking about aiming for a deal in June; I don't know what effect that will have on the minister's plans, given that he committed himself to making progress on direct talks with the US by the end of January. That may not be possible. It is, of course, perfectly reasonable for Ireland to be allowed some increase in US flights, in the sense that this would have no effect on negotiations between the EU and US, but I think the most likely outcome is that we'll have to wait and if there is no deal by June, we might have to deal with the US directly. Of course, by then, it'll be too late for Summer 2007 and probably too late to introduce new flights this year.

If, however, some deal is done, EI will be under pressure to act upon it. I am concerned that EI is not fully aware that the scrutiny of its actions and plans is much greater now than when it was under state control; as a recent poll in the SBP suggested, investment managers are distinctly underwhelmed by EI and its management; the privatisation was named the worst business deal in 2006 (which seems a bit unfair, given that the share price hasn't actually collapsed). However, there is a clear need - and not just for investors, but for staff too - to have some indication of vision and direction. :*

Regardless of the problems with Open Skies, which admittedly is a huge problem for the airline, the new fleet won't be coming into operation until about 2012, so delaying this deal will only result in the loss of production slots. And what about eastbound expansion? EI has talked about this since 2002/3, yet not a dickie bird since. Let's see some movement, DM ...

[akerosid]

As if to drive the point home about EI's need to look east, Conor McCarthy, who owns a shareholding in Air Asia and Fly Asia Express is interviewed in today's Sunday Tribune and he says that DUB is certainly on the airline's radar. Fly Asia Express (FAX) is looking to start services next year to BHX, MAN and (possibly) STN next year, via DXB/AUH and will then look at other destinations. The article also mentions that this could happen before Aer Lingus's "long awaited" plans to serve Asia.

http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_ticket=O47O3KLAFS48ODQFIR0FFMTEDWZ71GSGX4TFIVNB BRUNCSQBBHSJ5D1RHONDNNTDALNNCNRGUT4KTNNAC08H9LLCPKTFURTSPVMA AQ48SYKACK5IUWZKHONDLHG09LLDPGSG1VQFIVP9ANZN9LLGEGSG1RQFIVS9 ANZG9LLDNYLX8I&_scope=Tribune/Business/Business%20Week&id=58445&SUBCAT=Tribune/Business

And even if FAX doesn't actually do the deed, there's still Qantas's Jetstar offshoot which will be starting European services within the next two years, once it gets its 787s and you bet that DUB will be on its radar. And 787s will make a very convincing platform for long haul low cost operations.

[EI-BUD]

Aeroskid, I completely agree with you re :Jetstar will be looking at DUB.

Alan Joyce who runs the airline was speaking to a prominent Australian magazine and said that when the 787s arrive they will definately fly to MAN from SYD and a range of other destinations. The sheer volume of Irish people in Sydney and Australia is very encouraging and he being from Dublin he may have also a personal interest.
Time will tell.

[johnrizzo2000]

Well if Jetstar and FAX's threats werent enough, it will only be a matter of time before EK, QR or EY launch flights to Dublin, and a take a piece of the Dublin to Asia/Australia market!! Come on EI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surprise us all!!!!!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[VanBosh]

Well if Jetstar and FAX's threats werent enough, it will only be a matter of time before EK, QR or EY launch flights to Dublin, and a take a piece of the Dublin to Asia/Australia market!! Come on EI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Surprise us all!!!!!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:

Sell your shares!!!

[suasdaguna]

Come on Mr M and your ace management team....do something to appease your investors and tell us whats going on.....otherwise you'll go down as a one trick pony.

[Just a spotter]

Stumbeled across this today, it's from USAToday back on 8th Dec '06

"What's new in international business class"

Aer Lingus: The Irish flag carrier has seven planes to service its long-haul routes—New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Dubai, so the addition of two new Airbus A330s next year represents a comparatively hefty 19% increase in seat capacity. The new planes will be equipped with 24 lie-flat seat beds configured 2x2x2. There will be 57 inches of legroom when used as chairs. When converted to beds, the armrests will recline to allow two more inches of space to augment the 20-inch-wide cushions. The at-seat entertainment system will feature 10.6-inch screens with on-demand programming. The new planes will appear next May and June and will be placed on some flights from Los Angeles and Dubai. The business-class cabins on the existing planes have traditional armchairs. They are being refreshed and fliers will be able to use handheld personal-media players with 10.6-inch screens. Both the new and old seats will have power points that use standard electrical outlets.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/columnist/brancatelli/2006-12-08-brancatelli_x.htm

JAS

[MarkD]

EI don't need LH capacity so much as availability :uhoh:

[gaelgeoir]

Regarding the possibility of Aer Lingus opening up three additional U.S. routes as per the interim bilateral deal negotiated last year, I've just seen a statement by an Irish M.E.P (Jim Higgins) quoting a letter to him from Transport Commissioner Barrot. It states that the 18-month transitional period (during which these routes may commence) begins "as and from the date that full agreement has been reached and Open Skies is in operation."

This indicates that Ireland-U.S. Open Skies will commence 18 months later than Europe-U.S. Open Skies. It also seems to me that there's no way Aer Lingus can plan for the opening of the three additional gateways until Europe-U.S. Open Skies is in place, which realistically precludes any new route launch before 2008 at the earliest. What a shambles by the Irish administration!

[840]

I assume that something along the lines of the Orlando service could still be put in place.

It is a pity that Shannon wasn't given a date after which it wouldn't be protected, rather than being told 18 months after the commencement of open skies.

However, there are still long-haul destinations that can be opened up without the US bilateral being altered. Aside from Eastbound ones, if the Canadian bilateral is altered, Toronto (and possibly Montreal or Vancouver) may be doable. A twice weekly service to the Caribean could work and wouldn't suffer from the seasonality of European sun routes. Even some West African destinations (Dakar, Banjul, Cape Verde) could be possibilities as these areas open to tourism.

That said, those would just be a list of destinations that could be added in the short-term. If Dublin is to be turned into a hub, it will be one for passengers heading from Europe to the US and Canada, so the sooner the bilateral can be sorted out, the better.

[INLAK]

However, there are still long-haul destinations that can be opened up without the US bilateral being altered.

Fully agree. The demand is there and more can be stimulated.
Possible destinations should include:

Shanghai
Beijing
Tokyo
Bangkok
Cape Town
Antigua (or somewhere in the area)
Vancouver
Toronto
Bahrain
Cyprus
Cape Verde
Malta
Moscow
Cairo

[ryan2000]

The changes to the existing bilateral should have commenced on 1st November. There is no need to extend the transitional agreement beyond March 2008. Shannon has had plenty of time to adjust to the new reality. The Irish Government must shoulder their share of the blame but successive US Governments softy softy approach and the willingness of several US carriers to put up with the stopover has extended its lifetime by many years.
Had Delta and Continental taken a tougher line it would have been changed years ago. Expanding services out of Ireland only encourages those opposed to change to drag their feet.

[gaelgeoir]

If Dublin is to be turned into a hub, it will be one for passengers heading from Europe to the US and Canada, so the sooner the bilateral can be sorted out, the better.

Dublin will never be a hub, given that its terminal layout doesn't meet the minimum requirements for connecting passengers and that its only based carrier with long haul equipment- Aer Lingus, is rapidly becoming a point-to-point operator, with no strategy in place to co-ordinate long haul/short haul schedules.

Shannon does have a suitable terminal layout but is unlikely to attract a based carrier.

[akerosid]

Regarding the possibility of Aer Lingus opening up three additional U.S. routes as per the interim bilateral deal negotiated last year, I've just seen a statement by an Irish M.E.P (Jim Higgins) quoting a letter to him from Transport Commissioner Barrot. It states that the 18-month transitional period (during which these routes may commence) begins "as and from the date that full agreement has been reached and Open Skies is in operation."

This indicates that Ireland-U.S. Open Skies will commence 18 months later than Europe-U.S. Open Skies. It also seems to me that there's no way Aer Lingus can plan for the opening of the three additional gateways until Europe-U.S. Open Skies is in place, which realistically precludes any new route launch before 2008 at the earliest. What a shambles by the Irish administration!

It is a disaster, but I am not quite sure that M. Barrot's word is
final; first of all, while the EU had a part in this deal (insofar as it
had a Community air clause included), it was still a deal between
Ireland and the US and one of these bilateral parties can revoke the
deal, if it so wished. Theoretically, if the Americans agreed (and I can't see the objecting), the Irish govt could say, "well, sod the side deal, we're going to full O/S from Day One".

I think that the current position is that the EU and US are going all
out to get a deal done by June (and it may well be done by next month),
so we may well have a deal by the Summer, BUT if that isn't done and the
obstacle to a deal turns out to be something that was demanded
(unreasonably) by the US - say cabotage, for example - and as a result
of this, our ability to access new routes was effectively sabotaged by
the EU as a result of its unreasonable demands, what then?

However, if the deal is done in June, the likelihood is that the
transitional period would start in November and we'd go back to 3:1 for
next Summer. In practical terms, this might be better, because with the
state DUB is likely to be in next Summer, I can't see it being able to
accommodate a huge influx of new t/a flights.

You can see how EI is vexed and finds it very hard to predict exactly when it can access new markets. However, the likelihood that new carriers like Fly Asia Express and Jetstar will serve DUB at some point makes it imperative that EI looks further east. It needs to flesh out what it sees a long haul low cost operation looking like; is it necessarily wise to be "just another full service carrier", to add to the dozens already flying the route.

HOWEVER, in preparation for this, thinking has to go into aircraft type in the short term. Flying to Asia (and particularly back) is a big undertaking; BKK-LHR on a 747 is around 12h40; on a 330 to DUB, you'd be talking about 14hrs; doable, with a decent load - particularly in a long haul low cost configuration? I doubt it (EI insiders can put me right on this). So, what's the alternative? A340 wouldn't make it out of DUB; perhaps the 777 could make it to BKK, but at pretty much full welly - but do they want a mixed fleet. An A330 could do it one-stop, but what's the point in that (yes, I know Fly Air Asia is going to do that - but that's their problem)?

(One solution would be to lengthen the runway, of course; logical answer, but unlikely to happen; interest isn't there at govt level or DAA level).

[blaggerman]

If Dublin is to be turned into a hub, it will be one for passengers heading from Europe to the US and CanadaAn interesting aside: if EI want to avail of the proposed US customs pre-clearance facility, then connecting passengers would need to collect and recheck their bags in Dublin so that they can clear US customs. That would not make a very attractive proposition for connecting passengers... as if connecting in Dublin would have any attractions anyway :)

[johnrizzo2000]

Well passengers who arrive in the US, have to collect their bags and put them onto a transfer belt, at their first point of entry in the United States. Having to do this in Dublin cant be that much hastle, if a transfer belt was organised!!!!

[akerosid]

FR has another go at EI:

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/18012007/214/ryanair-wages-war-aer-lingus.html

This time, it's fuel surcharges; I guess they have a point, given that jet fuel has come down about $20 since the surcharges were introduced.

Incidentally, DM is speaking at UCC tonight, so with any luck, he might spill a few beans and answer a few questions ...

[akerosid]

Just thinking about the prospects for EI and Asia. With Fly Asia Express starting next year (and likely to consider DUB) and Jetstar, likewise, when it gets its 787, the sooner EI does this, the better. However, it seems to me that EI is in a bit of a quandary:

- The A332 shouldn't have any problem getting from DUB to either HKG or BKK, but getting back will be difficult, with a decent load. HKG, from a pax/ cargo feed point of view is preferable and HKG-DUB is shorter than BKK-DUB, which will have problems with the Himalayas, Indian ATC and the fact that (based on BKK-LHR, which is around 12h40 on a BA 744) it will be close to 14h - too long for a 332.

- The 777 is an interesting option; it certainly wouldn't have any problem coming back from Asia, but based on the understanding that DL had some payload limitations with 777s when it operated from DUB, that may cause problems.

- The A340 is out. Runway length at DUB just won't allow it.

So, what then? Highest possible thrust rated A332 (-203X) and hope for the best? However, as a new carrier to Asia, the last thing EI wants to be doing is offloading pax on a regular basis and cargo out of HKG should be a pretty lucrative business. The 777 would probably be a more suitable aircraft, if the DAA could be persuaded to add a few hundred feet (i.e. 1300') to 10/28. Unlikely (indeed, as unlikely as 777s).

The thing is, EI has been talking about doing Asia for how long now? Four years? The business is definitely there, particularly with the stresses of having to fly through LHR (not to mention the extra taxes); if EI is to do this, however, it needs to get it right. Get the scheduling right, pick the right aircraft, have a consistent service standard (e.g. modern IFE on all aircraft), interline agreements; "one chance to make a good first impression" ...

Just thinking out loud on a wet, windy and miserable Friday evening ...

[johnrizzo2000]

Well, either way, they need to kick it into gear!!!! They badly need to upgrade their J cabin, and with FR going after them at DUB, they need to expand into the more profitable Long haul routes. DL has put J on their DUB-JFK routes, and CO will increase the number of J seats on its flights to Newark from May, so competition for the premium fliers is intensifying!!!

[akerosid]

In fairness, a new J Class is imminent; I understand one of the 330s has gone to Filton to be refitted. The new J Class will have flatbeds, AVOD and will be a considerable improvement on the current product.

[johnrizzo2000]

Oh, thats a surprise, and good news!!! I may actually try AerLingus J sometime, if thats the case!!!

[akerosid]

The A330s that have gone to the UK are actually there for repainting; the cabin mods will be done by SR Technics in Dublin.

Interestingly, in addition to the new J Class and PTV in Economy, crew rest areas are being fitted to the 332s (and the new 332 will have this too). That's a pretty good indication that the airline is looking at introducing some long haul route later this year (even though it will also be welcomed by crews on the LAX route!).

[apaddyinuk]

Lame question I am afraid.

Do any of you know if the new J class flatbeds are actually "Flat" beds or angled???

[EI-SHN]

The new beds will be " angled". However much a developement the new seats will be, i think that EI could have done better. I think they should have gone for a wider seat. Sure the new one will become wider by two inches in sleeper mode, but in seat position it could have been wider. But i think the best thing for EI to have chosen would be the Iberia Business Plus seat. Almost fully flat ( less angled than others) wider than new seat and only needs a 60 inch seat pitch and has been receiving praise for comfort. But i think EI will do something great and will be sufficient enough for the time being. Besides with the great staff, it should still be a pleasant experience.

[akerosid]

Which is more than you can ever say about flying with Iberia!

I see that there is talk in some of the papers about the possibility that the EU might force FR to sell off its shareholding in EI. I'm just wondering if that would necessarily be a good thing. For a start, it's a big chunk of the airline, but more seriously, the fact that FR has a holding in EI means it's less likely to turn the heat full on in competing against EI; if it didn't have that holding, what reason would it have to hold back? And that being the case, who would want to buy shares in EI in the knowledge that FR could launch a very aggressive attack on it? In other words, while I'm glad FR won't be gaining control of EI, I think the fact that it has a significant minority shareholding can act as an insurance policy for EI.

[akerosid]

Turbulence ahead over cost cutting plans:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1760735&issue_id=15153

[akerosid]

So far, they've only mentioned the reduction in overtime and holidays; what other changes is he looking for?

[ryan2000]

Anything in it about the hotel arrangements for Cork based crews.

[akerosid]

Presumably, if agreement is reached on the changes EI wants to make, we might see some significant announcements in March?

[EI-SHN]

Deal may offer one stop flight to Australia

January 25, 2007 11:27
A deal by an airline based in the Middle East is expected to cut journey times on flights to Australia.
The United Arab Emirates national airline Etihad Airways may press ahead with plans to fly from Dublin to Abu Dhabi, offering onward connections to the Middle East and Australia.
If the deal goes ahead, passengers would make one stop off in Abu Dhabi, cut hours off their journey.
Etihad Airways spokesman Ian Burns says the airline is still doing the number crunching on the new route.
He says that the airline hopes to make an announcement in a few weeks and he believes there is huge growth in the market.
Aer Lingus already has a "one-stop" trip to Australia - with a stop at Dubai and onwards.

If the new deal goes ahead Irish passengers will also be able to make onward connections from the United Arab Emirates to the Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia.
The potential deal follows contacts between the airline and Taoiseach Bertie Ahern last week while he was on a trade mission to the Middle East.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I think that Aer Lingus should have marketed the fact that passengers can travel to the Oceanic region with only one stop already i.e. Ireland to LAX to Australia/ New Zealand. With codeshares with QF this could have easily been done ( even codeshare with NZ). The only problem with this is the Americans " no transit here" rule, so unless you leave the gate area you have to clear customs, however on a flight from Ireland this can be cleared in DUB.
However as is typocal with EI the dont bother their holes to do anything about that and they lose out.

[waffler]

Most Aer Lingus flights to LAX are full so there is no need to sell flights to Australia as you dont have any seats for people to buy.
Secondly if you read the article properly you will see that Etihad ( which is not a major airline) have not said that they will be flying from Ireland but that they will consider it ,which if they are clever, they will not do as it means flying one of their few aircraft to the furthest country in Europe to be the number 3 airline doing the same thing.I suspect that they will take the free publicity and say thank you.

[EI-SHN]

Yes most flights are full but with the indtroduction of daily fligths this summer to LAX, I believe they should start to advertise the fact that Irish passengers can easily transfer onto QF flights. I'd say it is more likley that they( Etihad) will fly here in the coming 12 months. Etihad have said they are willing to lose money on new routes at first so as to establisgh a strong presence, something which GF can't do. Aer Lingus have their well known brand in Ireland to help them out if the going gets tough. I think that they should advertise the possibility of connection via LAX, aswell as opening up the long awaited route to the far east. HGK being the best for them at this time, with connections with CX and QF to other destinations in Asia and Oz. If they advertise their FFP more they may convince more people to join who will then have more tendancy to be loyal to EI.

[EI-BUD]

Waffler,
I read your thread. Agreed Eithad has not confirmed that they will but are looking at it.

But I disagree with what you said that "if they are clever they will not do ". Eithad is a new company only 3 years old and are gaining significant recognition for inflight service, there is only Gulf air and Aer Lingus to Dubai and Bahrain as you already know but the frequencies on each route are less than daily. Any company who can offer good service on new long distance routes that offer good connections to destinations such as Asia and Australia have got to be a winner.

Besides all that Eithad is government owned and profit is not always their primary objective. I could see it happening. So as far as I believe When an airline like Eithad wants to serve new destinations they dont worry too much about the competition. We need a good first class and premium service from Ireland on long haul . See passenger opinions of Eithad in the following link :
http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/etihad.htm

[johnrizzo2000]

Waffler,

Besides all that Eithad is government owned and profit is not always their primary objective. I could see it happening. So as far as I believe When an airline like Eithad wants to serve new destinations they dont worry too much about the competition. We need a good first class and premium service from Ireland on long haul .

Exactly, making money for a lot of Gulf Airlines is not there main aim!! Bringing Business travellers, investment and tourists is more important! This is what EI is up against, and so its important that they hurry up, and sort out an EK alliance of sorts!

[VanBosh]

Exactly, making money for a lot of Gulf Airlines is not there main aim!! Bringing Business travellers, investment and tourists is more important! This is what EI is up against, and so its important that they hurry up, and sort out an EK alliance of sorts![/quote]

I doubt EK are too keen for an alliance to be honest. Imagine selling a ticket from say Australia to Ireland in first class. Everything is fine on the first leg but Id wouldnt imagine the passenger would be to happy paying top dollar for EI's "first" class offering.

[johnrizzo2000]

Well, I'm sure EI's first class offering is something that will be improved shortly. IF EI's J and Y product were improved, EK would have no reason to not want an alliance with EI. EI is a strong brand here, and could potentially take a large segment of the Ireland to Thailand, Australia etc market with an alliance with EK. I cant see why EK wouldnt want to be fed a plane load of Pax off an EI flight from DUB?

[gaelgeoir]

Yes- EI will experience additional competition for West of Ireland-resident traffic, but this will be limited in terms of capacity (see post #35 on IWAK thread re. greatly overstated expectations by IWAK management).

Moreover, given the current radial pattern of surface links in Ireland, where all roads (and railways) lead to Dublin, it's likely that EI's Dublin services will be affected more severely.

[riptack]

Does anyone know what EI plan to do as regards codesharing and bagage transfer after they leave ONEWorld? Are they going to become a point 2 point airline?

[840]

They sent out this email to Gold Circle members in November. Although, it doesn't answer your questiondirectly, I suspect they wouldn't be looking at the frequent flyer arrangements if they didn't intend to continue with the interlining/code share arrangements

Following on from our earlier announcement in May of this year of our intention to leave the oneworld™ Alliance, I am writing to you to confirm that Aer Lingus will formally cease to be a member of the Alliance from 1st April 2007.
If you are planning to travel or redeem Gold Circle points with another oneworld™ carrier then please refer to the headings below for information on how this will affect you.
I am also glad to inform you that we expect to shortly announce separate frequent flyer agreements with American Airlines, Qantas and Cathay Pacific. These new arrangements will allow you to continue to enjoy the ability to both earn and redeem points for travel with these airlines. We expect Lounge access benefits to also form part of the new arrangements with American Airlines. We anticipate these arrangements to be finalised in the coming weeks and I will communicate the full details to you as soon as they are finalised.
We also hope to conclude negotiations with British Airways in the near future, and will announce accordingly

[senan]

Sorry to return to a previous subject about Aer Lingus aircraft selection, but I just joined the forum. Some points...

- I have worked as an engineer very close to the 787 programme for 3 years and I cannot see how Boeing will begin deliveries on time in mid-2008 and keep up with the initially planned production rate; the short development time is just too aggressive; they just dropped the wireless IFE feature of the 787 - don't be surprised if more compromises are to come
- Boeing have not even launched the 787-10 (310+ seater) that is a potential A330-300 replacement and the A350 does not have a US engine supplier yet (Rolls-Royce only). At best, this means EI can only order an undefined expensive aircraft, the A350; what is likely is that they can't make any long term committment for months to come (summer time at the earliest)
- this means A330 / A340 / (B777) aircraft will be Aer Lingus only option to put in service for some time to come (6+ years) - to add to existing services, more A330's would need to be ordered similar to the recent order for two, but this is difficult due to huge demand for all widebody deliveries; I think the A340-500/600 will see an order revival this year due to this pressure and now that oil prices have lowered
- Aer Lingus operate larger aircraft compared with any other airline flying from Ireland to the US so a Mayo route will only suit people from that part of Ireland; my opinion is that people don't want to spend more than 6 hours on a small aircraft - also EI have preferential access to JFK and other US airports; I have already heard complaints from people about travelling through the Delta terminal at JFK compared to T4
- as it is, EI have the 2nd lowest operating costs of any transatlantic operator, all major US and European airlines included; the lowest cost is Air India. This says a lot for the current Airbus based business model.

[Just a spotter]

Now, just a thought, and I'm 100% sure that someone here will be able to tell me why technically this can't be done ... but seeing as we're now getting ETOPS 757's into Dublin and soon to be Knock as well to/from east coast US, could Aer Lingus utilise A321's from Knock or Cork to, say JKF or BOS? (and yes, I know the 757ER has a longer range than the 321)

Did some checking and according to the "Great Circle Mapper" the distances are as follows with 180min ETOPS.

EIKN-KJFK 2668 NM
EICK-KJFK 2704 NM

EIKN-KBOS 2506 NM
EICK-KBOS 2542 NM

According to Airbus, the a321 will run to 3050 NM with 180 pax (OK so maybe you'd have fewer pax on TA to allow for heavier baggage). Airbus use the example of the A321 doing New York-Dublin and Paris-Boston on their site.

So, if low cost, single aisle twins looks like a gower from the "regional" airports ... apart from any bilaterial or open sikies issues, why not?

JAS

[840]

Smaller aircraft will be used for more transatlantic services, but the A321 isn't the machine for the job.

For a start, EI's current A321s are configured with more than just the 180 seats (212 out of memory). You'd end up flying with 25% of the seats blocked off, which isn't going to do much for keeping costs down.

Also, the distances are close to the maximum range. A bit of a headwind and you'll have a tech stop in Gander. That doesn't make it easy for scheduling or costs.

Finally, I'm not certain the runway lengths at Cork and Knock are OK at MTOW.

Like I said, smaller aircraft will be used, but it's more likely to be the A319 or a long range 737, neither of which Aer Lingus have.

[EI-DHC]

Received this e-mail from Cork Airport after I enquired abou any t/a routes being started from ORK:

"I can assure you that the Management Team are in regular and frequent contact with existing and potential airline customers to secure even further new routes for Cork Airport.

As you will have seen from recent announcement, Aer Lingus has recently added Madrid, Lanzarote, Prague and Manchester to increase the number of routes being offered by Ireland's flag carrier to 17. Aer Arann has recently added Galway and Leeds Bradford as well as increasing rotations to Dublin while Centralwings has added Warsaw to their two current routes to Poland.

Added to that, the increase in winter sun and winter ski charter flights this season and our passenger business continues to grow an impressive rate of 11% year on year, serving over 3 million passengers in 2006 - an historic landmark year for Cork Airport.

Our marketing team are in constant contact with most if not all of the airline partners that could offer direct flights to New York and other east coast destinations but no announcement is imminent on transatlantic flights at this time. Our aim is to deliver a quality airport travel experience to the best international standards and offer our customers an even greater choice of carriers and destinations going forward into Summer 2007 and beyond."

No t/a routes in the pipeline just yet.

[Devonair]

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=mergersNews&storyID=2007-02-06T151331Z_01_DUB000245_RTRIDST_0_AERLINGUS-JETBLUE-ALLIANCE-URGENT.XML

[EI-DHC]

Good move by both EI & JetBlue. It is being muted on A.net that EI might move to Jetblue's new T5 at JFK. Apparently it can handle widebodies too.

[MarkD]

Jetblue for Oneworld - hard to see the upside in that swap.

[EI-SHN]

link from RTE
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0206/aerlingus.html

The best move DM has made since taking control, in addition to the DXB route.

Also there are pictures of EI-LAX after its repaint, and itd missing the aerlingusOcom sticker, however they will probally add it shortly, but i hope to God they don't, its so un professional looking and ugly. BUT if they do add it maybe they will add the smaller dot like they have to the A320s after repaint, however it maybe unlikley seeing as they bet the big dot back on the other A330s after repaints(EI-DUB, JFK, ORD)


http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/img2/e/EILAX.jpg.34851.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);)EI-LAX after repaint and lacking its aerlingusOcom sticker



http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/img2/e/ei-jfknosefinal.jpg.71543.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);) EI-JFK repainted during Summer 2005 and got back its dOt com sticker



http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/s/Shamrock-1.jpg.19491.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);) after repaint last year and spent a little while going around without the dot com sticker



http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/img2/e/EI-DUB.jpg.83022.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);) EI-DUB gets its sticker back




http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/img2/e/EICPE-LHR-06NOV.jpg.87041.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);) EI-CPE with big dot before repaint




http://images1.jetphotos.net/images/img2/a/AerLingusEI-CPE050107.jpg.76539.jpg.thumb (http://www.pprune.org/forums/FCx(this.href);) EI-CPE with small dot and the web address is moved further aft down the fusalage

[Just a spotter]

Aer Lingus is to form an online partnership with low-fares US carrier Jet Blue, which allow Irish and US travellers book seats on the Aer Lingus website between Ireland and 51 destinations in one go.

Aer Lingus says from late September customers will be able to make a booking on aerlingus.com which allows them to travel from Ireland to the US, and onto a Jet Blue flight to 51 destinations across the US, Mexico and the Caribbean.
Aer Lingus said the move significantly extends its reach into North America, and opens up the Irish market for millions of US passengers who can access the Aer Lingus website.
Aer Lingus CEO, Dermot Mannion, said today that the web link-up is costing virtually nothing, as it is being developed in-house, yet will be a boost to revenue and give access to millions of US passengers.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0206/aerlingus.html

OR this

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10008980.shtml

Aer Lingus Chief Executive Dermot Mannion, said the tie-up was a significant development for both carriers.
"It changes the face of access to North America for the Irish travelling public," he said.


JetBlue had not made its own announcement on the link-up at the time of posting this report, which may or may not signal that its expectations are more measured.
JAS

[ryan2000]

What's the idea of reducing ORK-MAN from 5 to 3 per week before the service even starts?

It's now just a token service on TU TH and SA and won't stand a chance against BMI Baby's Daily service.

[riptack]

Aren't Jetblue passengers going to feel a little blue when they have to sit in one of EI's outdated t/a aircraft with a screen at the front? It's a big come down from Jetblues flash shiny planes with inseat entertainment!

[akerosid]

According to some reports, this deal is not yet done and worse still, its announcement came as a surprise to Jet Blue. I saw a report on Finfacts (can't add a link here, but go to A.net news), to the effect that B6 made two statements to the SEC yesterday, neither of which related to a deal with EI. Jet Blue said that it was in talks with EI, but didn't expect a deal to be done until later in the year?

How could this happen? It's very unusual for EI to bolt like this; surely it would know the status of talks and that a deal had not been done. Doesn't look good and unlikely to impress investors, or improve confidence in EI management.

And yes, Riptack, you're right. Although the A332s are being refurbished, the A330-300s serve JFK, B6's main base, so B6 pax are going to see quite a change!

[Just a spotter]

RTE news reports all day are carrying a story about delays to Aer Lingus schedules today due to an "incident with a deicer machine" earlier in the day.

Did someone hit an aircraft?

JAS

[840]

AFAIK it was just that they couldn't de-ice aircraft because of the failure of the machine.

[riptack]

While I do think there is a big difference in service between EI and JetBlue it is a good move for EI. But it also makes me think why don't EI take a leaf out of JetBlue's book and update their aircraft providing the extras while staying low cost. This would really differentiate them from FR and other low cost operators in Europe. At the moment on short haul they are FR only more expensive and sometimes flying to a better airport. They need to justify their higher airfares especially on routes where they are in direct competition with the likes of FR. (e.g. Dublin - Seville, FR have one way flights for 37eurs all taxes etc included, EI have flights for 90eurs excluding charges.)

While I'm at it! FR seem to have a European presence. They actually advertise in local media, billboards etc. While EI seem content to rely on Irish people travelling abroad. Here in Spain there is minimal advertising( a few newspaper ads) despite there being numerous flights to Ireland (DUB and ORK). As a brand in Europe, outside of the industry, they don't seem interested in creating a profile.

[Charlie Roy]

Here in Belgium where Ryanair have a base I don't actually see any advertising outside of Charleroi airport grounds!!? They seem to rely on newspapers to write articles about them and their routes every now and again.

I do however regularly see advertisements in newspapers for Aer Lingus' one route to the country :D

[eibun]

Great that Etihad are going to fly direct to/from DUB with one stop only to SYD and other Far East countries.

Am flying Bus class with GF next week DUB to SYD.
Considered EI to Dubai and Emirates onward to SYD.
However the EI Premier fare DUB/Dubai/DUB was more expensive than GF's Bus class DUB/SYD/DUB!!! Add on Emirates Bus class Dubai/SYD/Dubai and there was only going to be one winner.

Maybe EI will now consider to put the Dubai 330 back on to the Orlando route; because between Etihad and GF Aer Lingus does not have a hope in hell of competing.

Another bonus of course is NOT having to go through LHR!!!!

[johnrizzo2000]

Ive read that EI has the second lowest operating costs across the Atlantic; so this could easily be applied on their route to DXB, if isnt already the case. With low costs, and in general, good cattle class fares to DXB, EI have got a chance againts EY and GF. Now, if EI would WAKE UP AND GET GOING ON AN ALLIANCE WITH EMIRATES, they could be a force to be reckoned with. Theres a large amount of traffic ex DUB to Australia, Thailand etc, and EI is stupidly not going after it. Whilst still good, they are focusing on a Jetblue alliance at present, whilst EY and GF take a potential chance to make some serious money, from right under their feet!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

EI needs to wake up, AND SORT OUT THE EK ALLIANCE!!!!!!!!!! They are really annoying this GoldCircle member, as I would like to earn points flying to Asia etc, without having to use LHR!

[MarkD]

Not Orlando until the stopover eases. The flogging of the 330s with stop-cool-go at SNN should not be repeated. With the crew rest being fitted on the 332s CPT might go back on the agenda.

[akerosid]

Yes, that MCO business was almost comical. Mind you, I get the impression (and its probably only a vibe) that the NOC arrangement with Flyglobespan heralds the start of a new approach. My impression is that the NOC arrangement didn't fall exactly into the hard and fast bilateral rules, but the rules were bent (and thank goodness for that!). Hopefully the same will be case for new routes ex-DUB, possibly ex-ORK too.

Another interesting point to bear in mind is that there has been precious little news from Washington on the status of O/S talks; I think this is undoubtedly a good thing, in that if the EU was sticking to its ridiculous demand for US airline ownership, talks would probably have broken up on the first day. The longer they go on, the more likely it is that a deal can be done and hopefully the start date can be ASAP.

The fitting of crew rest areas is definitely a good signal, but I think Asia will take priority over CPT. This is really for scheduling reasons, in that if you want to maximise acft utilisation, CPT really only works if you have the aircraft returning by day, then flying on to an Asian destination. Otherwise, you end up losing a whole day's utilisation.

It looks like EI is moving forward and this is obviously a good thing, but I am a little concerned that since JetBlue is based at JFK/BOS, these are the routes served by the older 330s, so it's going to be "chalk and cheese" for transferring pax, ironically, the shorter flights have the better (by far!) IFE product; even B6's Embraer 190s have the top-of-the-line IFE, including nose camera - a real plus in these days when jump seats are a no-go!

[840]

Ground staff to vote on strike action

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0209/breaking59.htm

What's the minimum notice period for strike action? 1 week?

[akerosid]

Still no word about the status of EU/US Open Skies talks, which have been taking place in the US since last Tuesday; in a sense, this is good news. If the EU were holding to its line of "no deal without change in US ownership rules", the talks would probably have foundered by now; the fact that they're still talking suggests that a deal might be in the offing. If, on the other hand, talks have actually broken down, then there should be no problem about going directly to the Americans and seeking a deal." While the Commission has taken a tough line with Ireland in the past on this issue, if talks fall through because of its inability to understand the meaning of the phrase "sod off", then it is not unreasonable for the govt to seek to protect our interests and do a deal with the Americans.

The Commission will probably call EU ministers to talks in Brussels, to explain the situation; Cullen, after such a session in December, said he was willing to wait until the end of January "but not much longer". It's time he was pressed for action.

Even if a deal is done now, something can be done for at least the end of the Summer season, provided EI can get the aircraft. With recent long haul load factors and numbers not being terribly impressive, investors and analysts are going to be all the more anxious to see movement. If no US routes can be open, time to start looking east ...

[ryan2000]

Is this the same Cullen who's dealing with the debt issue at Cork Airport?
It still hasn't been resolved and we can't blame the US or the EU for that.

[akerosid]

OK, fair enough, but it is a different issue. Not saying it's unimportant or less important (certainly to Cork), but the transatlantic access issue does have an impact on ORK too.

I have a thread running on this issue on A.net, which (based on some of the more knowledgeable responses) suggests that we may be screwed. Basically, the vibe is that even if the EU Commission messes things up with its demand for changes in US airline ownership (a no go, but the EU won't accept "no"), it can hold us up indefinitely. It seems to believe it holds all the cards; worse still, the govt seems to believe so, too.

It's going to take a lot of pressure from Ireland and frankly, if Cullen isn't feeling the pressure from ground level, so to speak, it's hard to see that he will push for change. This fight may have to get very unpleasant and dirty, in that it could end up at the ECJ, but it is a necessary fight; the EU Commission clearly believes that in its bid to get an Open Skies deal, it is quite acceptable to impose/maintain a competitive disadvantage on Ireland and EI specifically. As you know, long haul is a major factor in EI's future success and if the EU holds it back, it will affect its competitive position and make it a lot easier for FR to launch a successful attack on it in future.

I'd like to see IALPA being more vocal on this; I'd like see EI itself being more vocal - it is, after all, a publicly quoted company. I don't mean to sound melodramatic, but really, this is HUGELY important to Aer Lingus and the more pressure felt at govt level, the more "incentive" there will be to put up a fight. If you want to see new routes westward, please get writing; if necessary make it an election issue, or even tie it to the Constitiution. The manner in which EI's interests are being treated is grossly unfair and unless we start fighting back and making the airline's position clear, the EU will ride roughshod over it.

[ryan2000]

The stopover is now a massive millstone around Aerlingus.

How ironic given their unquestioning support for it for decades. Aer Rianta and SIPTU also slavishly suppoted it. How any self respecting aviation executive could defend and indeed support this regulation amazes me. I know it was government policy but surely someone could have spoken out even privately against this daft rule.

I agree that an extended delay could leave Aerlingus very vulnerable and destroy the Governments policy of having two major Irish airlines competing against each other.

[OPENROAD]

Anyone know when this is likely to go ahead.

[EI-BED]

From the Irish Independent Today Wednesday 14th February

AER Lingus is to spread its wings by establishing its first base outside Ireland.

The move is part of an expansion which will allow the airline to establish 15 new European routes between destinations outside Ireland. The airline has already shortlisted three airports for its first foreign hub.

Industry sources said it is likely the base will be the first of several which will give Aer Lingus major new opportunities to increase revenue.

It could also help make the small but very profitable airline into a significant European player.

The airline has told trade union representatives that the changes in working conditions it is currently proposing are absolutely necessary if the plans for a new base are to go ahead.

The changes include provisions which allow Aer Lingus to employ people at foreign bases, on "local market rates", or to relocate existing employees.

SIPTU, which represents about half of all 3,500 Aer Lingus employees, served strike notice on the company yesterday, giving the company 14 days notice of industrial action.

Although serving strike notice does not necessarily mean the union will strike, sources suggested a strike was the most likely outcome.

The company is seeking a number of changes to employees' working conditions which will see some staff availing of fewer holidays while others will receive less overtime pay.

Specifically staff are being asked to accept a standard 37.5-hour working week, and to take one day in lieu for working a bank holiday instead of two.

There was further bad news for the airline last night when Aer Lingus group of unions representing 175 ground maintenance engineers and workers voted "massively" for industrial action over the company's cost-cutting contracts.

It is expected the ALGU will serve notice for strike action on the company today to take affect from Monday fortnight.

IMPACT, which represents Aer Lingus pilots and many of the cabin crew, is engaged in talks with the airline. Aer Lingus has already brought in the new conditions for new employees and plans to bring them in for existing employees on March 1.

The new conditions were outlined in a document called "Programme for Continuous Improvement 2007" which was presented to unions before Christmas. That document would also have given the trade union representatives their first hint of the airline's plans to establish foreign bases.

It states that the new bases will employ workers at "local market rates" rather than at the rates which currently apply to staff.

Aer Lingus currently has two bases, one in Dublin and one at Cork. It also has a base at Shannon but this is only for maintenance purposes.

The airline is planning to tie down the location of its first foreign base in the coming months with a view to the new routes coming on stream in January of next year.

Tickets for the new routes are expected to be offered for sale in October.

The identity of the three airports which have been shortlisted by the airline is a closely guarded secret.

Meanwhile, the airline has written to the Labour Relations Commission requesting that it refer the matter of the new terms and conditions to the National Implementation Body (NIB) "for urgent consideration".

The NIB polices national wage agreements.

SIPTU has called for the intervention of the Labour Court.

However, it only wants the court to decide on whether Aer Lingus is in breach of previous agreements, rather than deal with the substantive issues.

[Just a spotter]

Interesting, could be a good move, we'll wait and see where.

Didn't they have a hub/base in Manchester a way back when .....

JAS

[ryan2000]

My guess is that the bases are in the UK as their name recognition is huge there. Question is will they get to next January if common sense and Open skies doesn't prevail.

In fairness two days in lieu for working a Bank Holiday is unheard of in private companies. The rules of the game have changed and if EI doesn't adapt quickly Ryanair will rule the roost at DUB ORK and SNN before we're very much older.

[840]

I'd agree with the UK.

In fact, it would probably be three airports they already fly to. From scratch, GLA, EDI and BHX look like the best bets. Although, I wonder if this just relates to using Heathrow as an actual base, something which has been long rumoured.

Although, they need to get their costs under control, talking of needing to get to next January is a touch melodramatic.

[gaelgeoir]

There's as much threat as there is opportunity in 'Open Skies' for Aer Lingus, in my view. Some years ago we were being told that up to 26 U.S. cities were being examined by EI for service (by way of persuading Irish tourism interests to support 'Open Skies') despite the obvious impossibility of operating anything close to that number from a highly constrained Dublin, not to mention the parlous finances of the airline at the time.

The recently-proposed 3 additional gateways within an amended bilateral, with possibilities of further additions post 2008, gave a more realistic outline of the potential for Aer Lingus, taking account of the likely addition of significant capacity by U.S. carriers.

If Aer Lingus are depending on 'Open Skies' to save them, as implied by an earlier post, then they are in more trouble than I thought.

[en2r]

Perhaps its Belfast. Maybe they're launching the codeshare service to LHR with BA that was rumoured some time back. If not,I'd say the most likely location is Heathrow where they effectively have a base already, the Shannon bound plane overnights there during the summer schedule, and two Dublin bound planes overnight all year round. One question though, where will they get the planes for a new base?

[Just a spotter]

en2r

There are 2 320's due in June, along with the 330-300 and 330-200 due in May, with further 320 options.

http://www.jethros.i12.com/fleets/fleet_listings/aer_lingus.htm

JAS

[riptack]

If they're going to launch 15 new routes from this new base they are hardly going to go up against BA at LHR? Plus will they be able to get slots for new flights at LHR?

It would make more sense for them to open a base in the UK regions or in Spain(where they already have had experience with Futura).

[en2r]

Just a spotter

Are all the new planes not already committed?
Aren't the two A320s going to Dublin to increase frequency on many of their routes as well as operate the new routes to Athens, Vilnius and Santiago?
And aren't the two new A330s meant to be used to increase frequency on their long haul routes. I remember a press release to that effect some time ago

[MonkeyB]

Any chance it'll be Cardiff, there's plenty of scope for expansion!

MB

[840]

CWL is possible, but I'd say it's much more likely to be an existing destination where the brand is known. If it was somewhere like BHX, they could just transfer over the DUB and ORK flights to an aircraft based there allowing rotations to be freed for aircraft from their Irish bases. It would considerable reduce the risk.

The more I think about it though, the more I think it could be a case of creating a base at Heathrow to operate existing flights to Ireland. It would mean significant cost savings with minimal risk.

[EI-BUD]

Great to hear the notion of another base. During his time at the airline Willie walsh said something about a new base. But when he was leaving there was no more about that. I thought at that time Liverpool was the one , as at that time EZY was only growing at LPL and FR did not have a base yet. But then FR set up shop there so that would probably have ruled that out. I realise that LPL is no longer served. LPL would have been a great one with the big Irish population. But this could be said of many UK cities.

I would agree with what has been said already def a UK base. Aer Lingus could surprise us and go for an Airport that is not over utilised, with an eye for cost reduction. Coventry , Doncaster come to mind.But with BA being absent from March25 at many regional UK airports , a network carrier like EI could be a great coup for the company.

Any suggestions of new bases. I would have loved to see a BFS base, but my mindset is now firmly of the opinion that EI will avoid confrontation with other carriers especially LCCs and develop new markets.??

[Just a spotter]

Or ... just being crazy here ... given the tie in with Jet Blue ... how about JFK ... base 330's there and fly DUB and other European cities (post openskies).

Or is that just tooooo mad? :}

JAS

[gaelgeoir]

See post #131- the bases are to be in Europe, for intra-Europe service. Less craziness please!

[Just a spotter]

Yes, perhaps just a bit too much "thinking outside the box" work wise this week :bored:

time to lie down in a darkend room ...:zzz:

:ok:

JAS

[akerosid]

Per today's Irish Times, EI is to take on 300 new pilots and cabin crew for new routes; exact breakdown unclear as yet. EI is to open a new flight base and develop its long haul routes (subject to Open Skies being sorted out - talks to restart on Monday week).

Much as I like to see EI expand, doesn't opening a new base in a market where they are relatively unknown, expose them to risk of a better known airline (or even an existing low cost like SkyEurope/Easyjet) coming in and attacking them. I'd much rather see them investing in eastbound long haul growth than opening a new flank for attack on short haul. (Notwithstanding FR's part o'ship of Aer Lingus, are they guaranteed to keep out of this market if EI establishes it?)

[EI-BUD]

According to uk airports news , it quotes the Irish times as saying that Aer Lingus is looking at Belfast as the new base ,and it is also looking at 5 UK airports.

Suggestion is a January 08 launch, and it would look at many routes including up to 2 hours in duration.

[johnrizzo2000]

I'd love to see BFS as a new EI base. Also, GLA, EDI or BHX!!!!!

The idea of a JFK base is a good one! JFK-SNN, is relatively short, and can be done in 5hrs, so basing a/c and crew there, could be used to boost utilisation of a/c, instead of sending them JFK-DUB-AGP! They could also launch services to BFS or ORK (open skies etc permitting) with a JFK base!

[Charlie Roy]

The move is said to be part of an expansion which will allow the airline to establish 15 new European routes between destinations outside Ireland. The airline has already shortlisted three airports for its first foreign hub.


This language does not suggest BFS. Imagine if Aer Lingus were to announce: "Our new foreign hub outside of Ireland is Belfast". I think straight away they'd upset a lot of their potential passengers.

[a1234]

EI at CWL would make so much sense. There is plenty of scope for expansion there as someone else said and their exit from BRS in march will mean they will retain a presence in that part of the UK. Also the fact that baby are pretty much focusing on BHX for now means EI are unlikely to be successful there and the fact that easy and flyglobespan are putting plenty of time into EDI and GLA means EI really wouldn't be a good idea there with this short haul base.

EI at CWL would give a great shot in the arm to the region as well, and their proposed network would fit in well with the wishlist of routes recently announced. CWL is so underserved at the moment its a joke (GLA is just once per day!) and DUB is operated by the little known and expensive aer arann (pax fell from around 13,000 to 5000 when RYR left).

[riptack]

I really think the new base will be on the European main land! Otherwise surely they would have said "'.... we're opening a UK base"

[Charlie Roy]

riptack

I'd also go along with that, especially hearing the comment they made saying staff would be paid local rates and not Irish rates.

I'm sticking my neck out and predicting they'll do a Norwegian and open a Warsaw base flying to Ireland, UK, Germany and Spain.

(Cork, Shannon, Dublin *** Heathrow, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester, Birmingham *** Madrid, Barcelona, Malaga, Alicante *** Hamburg, Munich)

PS - I notice that Norwegian are pulling off the Warsaw to Dublin route :ouch:

[riptack]

Hey Charlie I think Warsaw is a good guess! Or possibly any of the European airports that they already use regularly for DUB and ORK flights:

BERLIN
ROME
MALAGA
BARCELONA
ALICANTE
MADRID (unlike cos of strong EZY/FR presence)
FARO
NICE
AMSTERDAM
PARIS

[johnrizzo2000]

I'd say it'll be Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Riga, Vilnius, Budapest???????

[Faire d'income]

RB I usually stay away from the hopelessly misinformed rambling on this anoraks thread....but just this once...

BreakingNews.ie (http://http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/?jp=CWSNSNCWGBGB)

The SIPTU union is considering the contents of a letter from Aer Lingus, in which the company warned that staff at the airline would be suspended if they did not cooperate in training new employees recruited on lower terms and conditions.


Aer Lingus are forcing a strike. Mannion wants a strike and he wants it now.

1. He has only a month left on his contract.
2. He promised the takeover panel he would cut costs.
3. He has done nothing whatsoever since raising funds for expansion.
4. He has the same management team as Willy Walsh had who operate to Willy's mantra of ' if they are not striking you are not pushing them hard enough'.

Today's letter is to ensure a strike, the question is will SIPTU see through it and sidestep the obvious trap.

[akerosid]

Interesting comments in this article, from Cullen and Mannion. Increasing impatience (and not before time!) with EU/US talks, which are to restart next week:

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2016788,00.html

Basically, Cullen is threatening that if there isn't any positive result from next week's talks in Brussels, Cullen will seek the bring forward and implement the deal struck in November 05, which would allow EI to add three new cities and cut the stopover ratio back to 1:3 in DUB's favour.

Let's hope he follows through on this, although frankly, the last round of talks seem to have gone quite well; if they had broken up acrimoniously, we would have heard quite a bit about it.

Interesting to note your comments on DM's tenure ... maybe this might be influencing his statements in this article too. I am certainly disappointed that more hasn't happened, particularly with the long haul fleet renewal, but I guess that is affected by the O/S difficulties.

(And Faire D'income, with all due respect, let's not have any hostility. We're all on the same side, "anoraks" or not - everyone wants to see EI thrive and develop to the best of its potential).

[akerosid]

Some rumours emerging, at last, of new developments:

Riga is reported to be the new E. European hub ("interesting" choice, given that FR has already expressed an interest in a new base there).

New long haul route to BKK, via DXB, starting later this year, with CPT as well.

There may be some new US routes too, depending on the outcome of talks this week in Brussels over O/S; Cullen said last week that he would talk directly to the US if talks failed (although the vibe from the last round of talks was quite positive).

Finally, some interesting developments on the horizon ...

[Charlie Roy]

A couple of months ago Cairo, Beijing and Hong Kong briefly appeared in the booking engine, but then disappeared a couple of hours later.

Could these but other possible new routes?

[Bearcat]

I admire some of our stalward supporters of the green teams new rumoured routes. How many times have we all got excited and it's come to nothing?

Until I see it in print I'll believe it......

[Just a spotter]

I'm assuming the CPT service will transit DXB as a fuel stop ... basically making the current DUB-DXB the first leg of either a proposed DUB-CPT or DUB-BKK (or further) route

And if you've gone as far as BKK, another 4500 mile or so hop is SYD, or 3500 to Beijing

JAS

[840]

Going to CPT via DXB is going a long way out of your way.

I'd say one of Bangkok, Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong via Dubai could be more likely. I'm not so sure about Sydney. If you look at how few carriers now operate a Europe-Australia service, you'd have to question whether it would be viable.

[akerosid]

I can't see them going beyond BKK for now; I think the best option would be to make an interline agreement with the "local" carrier - and hope that any EI service to BKK won't sink as quickly as the new airport!

Seriously folks, let's hope they do this, but really, they need to look a bit forward; most airlines now fly nonstop from Europe - certainly the majors. Why does EI have to be stuck with this; ok, one reason is the homebound load restrictions and winds, but the other is the runway; if EI is going to make a go of long haul to Asia, it needs to go nonstop and DM needs to be telling the DAA in no uncertain terms that it needs to extend that runway.

On the whole EU/US issue, here's a Dail question from last week:

*To ask the Minister for Transport the position in relation to the
conclusion of an Open Skies agreement between the US and Europe; and if
he will make a statement on the matter.
- Phil Hogan. (Nominated by: Olivia
Mitchell).


For ORAL answer on Wednesday, 21st February, 2007.


Ref No: 6573/07

Answered by the Minister for
Transport
(Martin
Cullen)


REPLY

The Deputy will be aware that, in November 2005, EU and US negotiators concluded work on the text of a first phase EU-US Open Skies agreement that included a transitional arrangement for Ireland, relating to the phasing out of the 'Shannon Stop'. The draft agreement was unanimously endorsed at the December 2005 Transport Council subject to sufficient progress by the US side on opening up ownership and control of US airlines to EU nvestors.


In December 2006, following opposition from Congress, the US authorities withdrew the rulemaking proposal concerning control and ownership of U.S. airlines. The rule making provision had been a key demand for a number of Member States and its withdrawal by the US side is a significant barrier
to concluding the EU US Open Skies agreement.

Negotiation at EU-US level resumed in January 2007, with both sides reaffirming their commitment to the goal of concluding an EU-US agreement that would open access to markets and maximise benefits on both sides of the Atlantic. Following negotiations in Washington earlier this
month a further round is scheduled for next week. The objective is to reach agreement in time for the next Transport Council in March 2007.

I am following the negotiations between the EU and US closely and my Department is in ongoing contact with the Office of the Attorney General on the legal options. As I indicated previously, in the absence of progress at EU level, I intend to seek to implement, in accordance with Community law, measures to provide for liberalisation of transatlantic services between Ireland and the US by way of an amendment to the Ireland-US bilateral Air Services Agreement. (nb my emphasis)

Looks like the EU is going to mess it up, in which case the govt will seek to have the "transitional arrangement" brought forward. The EU won't like it and would be perfectly happy to keep us to our current position indefinitely, in which case, really, the govt really has to choice but to take action. Of course, it depends on what happens this week in Brussels, but I don't hold out much hope, based on what I've been hearing ...

[MarkD]

If you were going to stop en route CPT then what was all the 332 crew rest stuff about?

[akerosid]

I think the stop is intended just en route to/from BKK, not CPT. It's really the BKK-DUB route that causes problems; CPT-DUB should be ok.

I think they would want to operate BKK first, before CPT, so as to maximise utilisation; otherwise, they'll waste a whole day's utilisation for each flight to/from CPT. If they can come back from CPT by day, they can connect with the outbound to BKK, but obviously there's no point in doing that until the BKK flight is up and running.

Of course, a lot depends on what happens with the US bilateral and if EI can get this sorted out (as Cullen suggests above), plans may be changed.

[Just a spotter]

DUB-CPT is streaching it a bit .... 6,200 miles (according to Great Circle Mapper), that's 1000 miles more than DUB-LAX,the 332 has legs for 6,400 at MTOW, and I've herad that the they're are at the edge of their range off 28 in DUB at that (I'm happy to be corrected if that's not true).

Anyone know if the LTU 330's make a stop and if so, where?

JAS

[INLAK]

The LTU A330's operate non-stop DUB-CPT-DUB...and with only 2 pilots.:ugh:

[Just a spotter]

Short a couple of long haul pilots & their wallets ... must mean that they're well below MTOW so! :}

Sorry, couldn't resist .... :\

Still, they must be right on the edge of the 332's range ... or do they just glide into CPT on the way out? Those 330's can glide a long way!!

JAS

[MarkD]

When you take the CEO seat at EI you have to know that you will get zero support from govt or the board and nothing but grief from DAA - you can only achieve what you do for yourself. Willie was lucky because EI were in such trouble that in the early days he had free rein due to EI's situation - once things improved his axeswinging was not taken so well, exit stage east Willie.

[EIDW Spotter]

From time to time the LTU A330 stop off on one of the canary islands on both legs of the journey for "Technical Stops", this still classes the flight as direct as the passanger do not disembark.

[MarkD]

AC do that when they do YVR-SYD 343s - fuel stop heading north I think but non-stop heading south.

I've often wondered about the potential for Tenerife as a US/Europe/Africa hub to places like LOS/CPT/JNB - certainly more direct for North American pax than LHR.

[akerosid]

I see they're going to be going directly to SYD and back, once they get the new 773ERs!

Interestingly, the press release from AC in Oz today said that a big advantage would be avoiding the US customs/immigration procedures at HNL; I know that is a big advantage; I just didn't think they'd say it. Just wait until AC has to do an ETOPS diversion; they'll be waiting ... :p

Anyway, moving swiftly along and closer to home ...

There's a thread on the whole O/S issue and the ongoing stalemate, sorry negotiations, between the EU and US; one of the posters, a Swiss gentleman who knows his stuff, posted this outline of what would happen if the talks fail. I thought it would be interesting:

The most likely scenario is as follows should the EC decide that an EU-US open skies agreement isn't possible.

1. The EC will direct those (not all) Member States (i.e. those with OS agreements with the US) to bring their ASA with the US into compliance with EU regulations as directed by the ECJ. You will note that Ireland (and the UK) are not included here.
2. The EU Member States will ask the US to modify their individual agreements to include the 'community air carrier clause' into the respective ASAs. (For example the definition of a 'French' airline would be expanded from an airline owned and controlled by French citizens to an airline owned and controlled by EU citizens)
3. The US may say yes - problem over.
4. The US may say no. Problems begin. Each of the MSs would serve notice (1 year) to abrogate the agreements.
5. In the interim more efforts would be made to make unilateral/multilateral improvements.
6a. 1 year later the respective ASAs would lapse. If history prevails then the status quo ante will prevail. i.e. both governments would act as if the ASA was still in effect, but schedules would need to be filed, tariff filing requirements may be reintroduced. Air rights etc would be frozen. Becomes a bureaucratic nightmare.
6b US would likely remove anti-trust immunity from Star, Skyteam, KL/NW alliances.

For other EU countries (without OS) like Ireland
1. Ireland attempts to convince US to liberalise agreement - but has to include community air carrier clause. Might happen - but only in relation to (3) above.
2. EU might (a big maybe) take these countries to ECJ to determine agreements not compliant with EU law. If so - follow from (4) above

It may not happen exactly like this - and cessation of all service would be very unlikely. But things are not going to get easier for the airlines.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, basically, if we can get the Americans to agree to a revised deal, we should be ok, BUT remember that if the current round of talks fails, the deal done in November '05 is only transitional and we don't want to be stuck with that; believe it or not, the current 50/50 arrangement was also intended to be transitional ... in 1994! So, we need to ensure that EI will not be kept to the planned three extra cities and changing the bilateral to 3:1. The trouble is of course that the Americans have said they won't do a full O/S with any country, so how do you go beyond that without it being O/S?

However, if they can get to the transitonal position and get EI access to the three new cities for a start, at least that would be something. I can't see any objection from the US carriers flying to Ireland, all of which would like to increase DUB access without increasing SNN access. Hopefully, Cullen will move very quickly once the talks break down ...

[MarkD]

akero - ETOPS stops don't require transit visas which is probably the point.

[akerosid]

Just got an email back from an MEP in relation to the O/S issue and the Commission's view seems to be totally at variance with the minister's:

"The Commission, speaking today (27 February) at a meeting of the European Parliament's Committee on Transport and Tourism, reiterated that "[..] even if open skies negotiations were to collapse [they] would pursue those bi-lateral agreements found to be in breach of Community law". It is unlikely, therefore, that any such new deal between Ireland and the US would be struck."

The minister's response to a Dail question (see earlier post) suggests he's determined to do a deal with the Americans if the EU makes a dog's breakfast of the current round of negotiations. The trouble is that if these fail, that could be it for another two years, because they're down to a pretty fundamental issue on which the US is unlikely to agree. Hopefully there is still a glint of hope, but I just don't see it, in which case Cullen and Barrot will be staring at each other with daggers drawn.

[akerosid]

Just hitting the wires: the EU Commissioner, M. Barrot has just said that a deal has been worked out on Open Skies, which will allow him to put a proposal before EU Transport ministers on the 22nd March. No firm details as to what is involved, but hopefully once the deal is done and assuming it is acceptable to the EU ministers, we're rolling!

Philadelphia (and San Francisco and Miami etc.), here we come !

Fingers crossed!

[akerosid]

OK folks, here's an update from Reuters.

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=mergersNews&storyID=2007-03-02T183801Z_01_L02237509_RTRIDST_0_AIRLINES-EU-US-UPDATE-3.XML

The deal takes effect on the 28th October. EU approval is on the 22nd March; really nothing at all to be achieved by rejecting it. I'm informed that since no change in US Law is required, formal congressional approval is not required, which will obviously remove a significant obstacle.

The significance of this to EI cannot be overstated; one of the big problems facing EI management over the past few months is that it simply did not know when/if this was going to happen or how long it would take; with the removal of the US ownership proposals from negotiation, it looked very likely that the whole thing could collapse and many predicted this.

While it would have been nice if some developments could have taken place before October 28th, the real significance is that for the first time in a VERY long time, EI will have certainty. It will know when it can add new routes and where to; it will know when, exactly, it can benefit from full Open Skies and consequently, when new aircraft will be required. That's a huge boost - it sounds like something most airlines in Europe take pretty much for granted, but EI hasn't had it.

As someone who's been fighting for the abolition of the stopover since around 1990, I can tell you I'm pretty darn pleased. The removal of uncertainty means that EI should now be able to finalise negotiations for a new fleet; while the new type, whatever it will be, won't be available until 2012-13, the transitional fleet was probably the hold-up issue - due in large part to uncertainty over the stopover. With that out of the way, hopefully progress can be made pretty quickly. :ok:

In the meantime, EI may still be able to add a t/a route; mention has been made of SJC and since this is a "second tier" city, it may be possible to add this route for this Summer season. It may also be possible to add an eastbound long haul route from the Winter, as it's unlikely that EI would want to add a US route for the Winter season.

Anyway, great news; be ready to pop the champage on the 22nd March!

[akerosid]

See the attached from the UK Independent.

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article2323467.ece

It looks as if the UK carriers VS/BA (which have never wanted an Open Skies deal) are likely to press the UK govt to torpedo this one. This could set the process back for years, because if this round of negotiation fails, that's it - possibly for the duration of the current US administration and beyond. Again, suits BA/VS fine.

So, you will have the ridiculous and unacceptable position at the next EU Transport Council meeting where one country, pushed by its airlines, can exercise a veto over the growth plans of other EU carriers, particularly EI.

Looks like Cullen may have to deal directly with Washington after all. The Americans will have to deal directly with the UK, because this LHR issue has been dogging the talks for far too long now.

[ryan2000]

Hopefully Aerlingus have their plans ready. There is no excuse for any further dithering if it's accepted on 22nd March, election or no election.

[Bearcat]

Dreamliners

[EI321]

dreamliners? What about them?

[akerosid]

Apparently our dear old Aer Lingus's choice for its new aircraft type. (See Ryan 2000's comments about Aer Lingus's plans, end of previous page).

Once the O/S deal is in place, we should HOPEFULLY see the order, but as Bearcat has said previously, we've seen so many rumours in the past, so we'll just wait. I understand Dreamliners have always been favoured, even over the new A350XWB. The new A350 isn't going to be available until 2014 or so., which makes it too late for EI.

Here's one I picked up from another forum (Dublin Airport Forum); Cullen is visiting the Bay Area (SF/SJ) for St. Patrick's Day and it's possible that a route to SJC could be announced; you'll recall that the incoming President of Dublin Chamber of Commerce kind of let the cat out of the bag on this. EI can't announce SFO, but SJC is a second tier city, so it should work.

Cullen will then be going to Brussels for the EU Council meeting on the 22nd March, which will hopefully see the Open Skies deal approved (on the assumption that the British minister is waylaid, gagged and pushed into a locker room under the stairs until the meeting is over ;) )

[akerosid]

That's very disappointing; hopefully they'll get back to the table and put together another deal. Unless of course, the reason the talks fell through was that Airbus came up with a better deal.

[akerosid]

The Labour Court has issued its recommendations on the EI dispute; while it recognises that cost cuts are needed, it suggests that the airline broke the spirit of co-operation by moving forward with the new contracts without consultation.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUAUQLQLGB

Interesting comments from Clare TD (and govt minister) Tony Killeen, about the effect of ending the stopover on Shannon. The prophets of doom and gloom who predicted the end of SNN when the stopover was relaxed in 1993/4 were proved wrong, he says. Can't help recalling that two FF TDs resigned the FF whip when this happened .... ;)

Interestingly, the article also refers to the introduction of the Customs pre-clearance facility at SNN and a major effort to improve the airport's competitiveness. Hopefully, the customs facility will also be put in place at DUB.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUAUQLSNSN

[Just a spotter]

The Mineta San Jose Airport wants to add flights to Tokyo, Dublin, Ireland, and Raleigh-Durham and is pursuing Northwest Airlines, Aer Lingus and Southwest Airlines, among others, to make that happen.From Feb 23rd's Silicon Valley/San Jose Business Journal!

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2007/02/26/story6.html

JAS

[akerosid]

The Taoiseach will be in Washington next week, to discuss the O/S issue with the US President. He is intent on doing a separate deal with the US, in the event that O/S fails, although he has had talks with Tony Blair on the issue and he (TB) seems committed to a deal going through.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/134-01.html

Good news, although it's a pity they weren't so anxious to do this many years ago; there's nothing that is possible now that wouldn't have been possible 10-15 years ago, had the interest been there at govt level.

[apaddyinuk]

Bertie is not in Washington to discuss the O/S deal....Hes in Washington for his annual free Paddys week holiday and will just happen to mention the Deal with Bush as they exchange shamrock!

[akerosid]

Hopefully it will be academic inasmuch as the UK will not veto the deal on March 22nd. If, however, they do, we need a Plan B, which can kick in pretty much immediately. The Taoiseach in quoted in today's Irish Times as having spoken to EI, which apparently wants to add new US routes as soon as September. "It has the aircraft waiting", he says.

(Can't help wondering what acft he's talking about, because the two new ones have already been committed for the Summer).

Another IT article reports that BWI has offered EI a lot of incentives to fly there, but that EI would rather fly to IAD (to forestall a possible UA route?). The speculation is that the other two will be MIA and SFO/SJC, with SJC being "a dark horse".

All systems go! And not before time!

[Faire d'income]

All systems go! And not before time!

Might be a very good time to look at shares.

[akerosid]

Annual Results for 2006 being released tomorrow, Tuesday 13th, at about 7am.

Hopefully, some good news to report!

EI is also featured in this week's Flight, in an article on Open Skies; EI and IB are cited as the winners and Flight reports a manufacturer's report that these airlines will be making significant orders in the lead up to 28th October (although I sincerely hope we'll see EI do the needful much before then!)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/03/13/212561/open-skies-rewrites-rules.html

Iberia, incidentally, has been reported as being in talks with Boeing for up to 30 787s. There are quite a few significant 787 orders in the pipeline (CO and a Kuwaiti leasing company ordered around 17 between them, today alone), so if EI wants to go down this road, it should really do so very soon. Once BA, EK, DL, AA and other large carriers order, the delivery positions will disappear very quickly.

[Just a spotter]

No need to panic on the order front ... Even if EI's money and custom isn't good enough for Mr. Boeing or Mssr. Airbus, I'm sure they could get an early slot and a damn good price for a large order of IL96's :}

JAS

[crackling jet]

can anyone explain the background to an article in the local press last week stating that they wanted to put extra a/c into Brs as part of a U.K. expansion. I myself did not see either of these reports, however quite a lot of staff at Brs did and are talking exitedly, now i was under the impression that Aer Lingus were pulling the plug on Brs at the end of this month. Or has the withdrawal of Flybe/ BAcon given them an ideal ready made opertunity and existing network vacancies. I remember in late eighties we had -early ninties we had two night stoppers for early BRU and FRA under the fith freedom aggreement untill financial problems at EI caused their withdrawal.

Any body in the know have any info or thoughts on these reports

[akerosid]

I don't think anyone (outside the EI mgmt and the airport in question) will know the answer to this until it's actually announced. BRS is not impossible, but with Easyjet already having a base there, it seems unlikely.

I'd have thought E. Europe was more likely - somewhere like Krakow, but that's just speculation on my part.

Interviewed today, DM said EI was sitting on €1b cash and that the airline has issued an "RFP" (Request for Proposals) to Boeing and Airbus for fourteen widebodies. It expects to make a decision in the 2nd quarter. As expected, 787 -v- A350.

[EI-BUD]

The results are great all things considered. It is I think the first full year of results since Ryanair launched the big raft of new services into mainland europe, and all credit to the airline and staff. Current cost cutting measures are good on the international stage, and the outlook is good given the open skys on the atlantic if that comes through Aer Lingus would be ideally positioned to tap into many markets.

[EI-BUD]

I would be extremely surprised if BRS is a base. I have read all the comments and info on here about "probables". I wouldnt be surprised if EI goes into a underutilised airport eg Coventry, Doncaster or even Eastern Europe as akerosid has suggested. Take Riga for eg. The airport is only I believe seeing 2.5 million (approx from memory read somewhere), and there has to be big opportunity for airline like EI with a low cost base.

The airline should aim for airports where LCC penetration is low in my opinion.

Any such airports come to mind ?

[eu01]

Riga has been almost certain candidate for a Ryanair's base and at the same time the population of Latvia is some 2.3 million only. Could be Tallin, but Estonia's population is approximately 1.4 million, even less.
I think the potential is yet again in Poland regardless of the growing LCC's penetration there. Two of the big cities in Poland still have surprisingly few connections - these are Lodz (Poland's second largest city) and Poznan. They could certainly be candidates for Aer Lingus. But it could be Warsaw as well; maybe Okecie, but if not, possibly one of the new low-cost airports in the vicinity of Warsaw that are scheduled to open in the second half of 2008/ first half of 2009 (names of the two: Modlin and Sochaczew).
Other possible countries in CE Europe are Czechia and Hungary. Prague is saturated however and Budapest has quite a strong presence of WizzAir and other low-costs either.

[Charlie Roy]

eu01

Do you mean Ryanair's new base, or Aer Lingus' new base?
(or both?)

My money is on Warsaw for Aer Lingus.

[eu01]

As yet I have not even a slightest hint of Aer Linguses possible talks in Riga. Riga has been indeed one of the Ryanair's favourite airports. Other possible candidates for the nearest bases (still talking about FR) are Polish Wroclaw, and with somewhat lesser probability Krakow (or) Lodz (or) Gdansk and later maybe Warsaw too.

[840]

I'd imagine that wherever the new base is will have to be somewhere that can offer at least 2x daily to Dublin and 3x weekly to Cork. It may already have those frequencies. Supporting a decent-sized operation to Dublin and Cork would significantly reduce the risks in establishing a base somewhere where the brand may not be very well known.

[akerosid]

Interestingly, EI is saying that whatever new base is selected will be used for short haul flights initially.

I guess that if that's their long term plan, they need to select a city that will be able to support a long haul operation.

You can look at some current airports which have very limited short and long haul ops.

Sofia, for example, has a brand new airport, but with a small airline. Probably a bit too far east, although it is popular with Irish property investors.

Krakow - a perennial favourite; a beautiful city, steeped in history; good population; potential for long haul growth, particularly to the US.

Berlin - Easyjet currently having a major base there, but very strong population, geographically at the centre of Europe; EI's unit costs lower than U2's.. Great potential for long haul expansion; Schonefeld soon to expand into Brandenburg Airport (adjacent site). Very good ground transport links; politically v. important. Could be a good guess.

Just a quick question, while I think of it: can the EI A320 simulator be used for A330 training as well, or do A330 crews still have to go to Aeroformation in TOU for their recurrent/upgrade training? With quite a few extra 330s likely to be coming in the near and medium term, that sim is going to be quite busy!

[Just a spotter]

Looking at it from a business perspective ... EI are not a big player and don't have very deep pockets.

Therefore, if you're going to set up shop in someone elses back yard (don't forget that while they're allowed to open up in another EU state, doesn't mean they'll be welcomed with open arms, especially by the incumbent "flag carrier") you'd better make sure that either;

1) The market is big enough to support 2 players (especially if you plan expansion)

2) You have a very unique sellig point (hence the loco success)

3) You can out last the competition in a fight

4) There is a large pool of locals who will automatically switch to your brand

On the back of that, can't see Berlin as a runner. Anyone have details on how financially sound the main eastern European carriers are?

JAS

[johnrizzo2000]

I think Warsaw, Krakow or Poznan could be front runners. I'd love to see a UK base in the future. EI would have to fight hard wherever they launch their overseas base, but I think with the right marketing they could do well!!! They offer good fares, good service, and their crew's are some of the best out there!

[akerosid]

I don't see EI opening up a direct route from LHR to the US; they need to focus on what they do can do best and that means flying Ireland-US routes, and - ultimately - a route from whatever EU city they pick as their next base. The intense competition on LHR-US flights from US and UK airlines alone will mean competition is intense.

The one thing that kind of worries me know is that there are increasing concerns about an economic downturn, due to concerns over US companies pulling out of Ireland and more recently, concerns about the US mortgage market. It would be very frustrating for EI to get this exciting new access, only to have these superb new opportunities undermined by a US or global economic downturn.

That said, people will still need to fly and Ireland may still have an advantage, in that it will be far better and more conveniently accessible to/from the US (and indeed Europe) than ever before, which will hopefully result in Ireland being perceived as a very convenient "entrepot" for US (and ultimately Canadian) access to Europe. Get a decent hub up and running at DUB and an efficient, lean t/a operation and EI should be well able to withstand the economic problems and challenges on the horizon.

[Charlie Roy]

akerosid
Krakow - a perennial favourite; a beautiful city, steeped in history; good population; potential for long haul growth, particularly to the US.

Looking at LOT's financial results for 2006 I tend to agree. My money is still on a Warsaw base though.

Last year LOT transported over 565,000 passengers on flights to the USA and Canada. The load factor for long-distance flights reached 87.2% in 2006. In 2006, LOT planes performed nearly 2,900 trans-Atlantic flights, i.e. over 290 more than in 2005.
Source: LOT website

[ad hoc]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0316/breaking78.htm

"A direct flight between Dublin and San Francisco was announced tonight by Transport Minister Martin Cullen. Aer Lingus will connect the two cities with a new non-stop service starting in the autumn."

[akerosid]

SFO, rather thzn SJC, looks likely to be EI's choice for its new Californian destination.

MCO looks likely to be the Florida destination, since it was very succesful last time (in terms of pax numbers), with either IAD/BWI (IAD currently looking more likely) being No3.

Roll on Thursday, when the EU Transport Council is likely to agree the EU/US deal; most US carriers are said to be happy with the deal (UA and CO having endorsed it this week), so US Congressional approval should not be a major problem.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1795908&issue_id=15386

[Bearcat]

well about time....Great news. As for MCO or MIA ...the bottom line here is connecting thru JFK esp in winter time has all types of hazards thrown in re wx. AL is recruiting so many new pilots hence they are gearing up for a major expansion. :D

[maxalt]

Historically Aer Lingus management have always mistimed pilot recruitment - failing to move when the need was there, then opening the floodgates just before a crash in the business.

They did it in 78-80, and again in 88-91, and famously in 99-01.

This can only mean one thing.
Recession on the way - predicted by Aer Lingus recruitment pattern.:ugh:

[akerosid]

OK folks, everything's in place; Britain has said that it won't be blocking Open Skies, so within 48 hours, we could see the Open Skies agreement being approved by the EU Council of Ministers. Britain is still looking for a small concession, relating to a small delay (to March '08, when T5 opens) in LHR seeing new t/a flights - that's unlikely to see much opposition and won't delay everyone else.

So, after all the years of backward looking, parish pump politics, political spinelessness and lack of vision, we're finally going to get an unrestricted air deal between the EU and US, one which should provide some very exciting opportunities for EI.

Sure, there are risks and there will always be concerns about recession, but at the end of the day, the opportunities are there and if EI doesn't take full advantage of them, someone else will.

http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=1671913;s=rollingnews.htm

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=allBreakingNews&storyID=2007-03-20T161550Z_01_L2042912_RTRIDST_0_EU-OPENSKIES-UPDATE-3.XML&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=InvArt-C1-ArticlePage3

[Faire d'income]

10th march
Might be a very good time to look at shares.

I hope you took my advice! :)

[Bearcat]

brokers looking at a realistic price of 3.40 on ISE wit 6 months. Very pos sentiment if this open skies goes thru. M O'L got his 26% very cheap.

A320 sim is not transferrable. Crews go Lon/Man/Tou for 330 sim or SEA if they get 78's!!

[bnt]

If Aer Lingus needs a new US destination, I have another suggestion: Denver. Modern airport with long runways in central USA, under-utilized, with only two international carriers so far (BA from LHR, & LH from Frankfurt). Returned through there last Friday, and the worst thing about it was the ground travel situation - road only, reminded me of Dublin in that respect.

[Just a spotter]

Historically Aer Lingus management have always mistimed pilot recruitment - failing to move when the need was there, then opening the floodgates just before a crash in the business.

They did it in 78-80, and again in 88-91, and famously in 99-01.

This can only mean one thing.
Recession on the way - predicted by Aer Lingus recruitment pattern.:ugh:

Maxalt ... unfortunetly ... the omens for the Irish economy being what they are right now, you may be bang on the mark! :sad:

Lets hope things go well for EI in the near future and the two new 330's DUO & DUZ don't herald the same times as the last great "expansion" with CAL and CAM (the two 763's in the early 90's).

JAS

[apaddyinuk]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0316/breaking78.htm



Air link with San Fransisco announced

A direct flight between Dublin and San Francisco was announced tonight by Transport Minister Martin Cullen.

Aer Lingus will connect the two cities with a new non-stop service starting in the autumn.

Minister Cullen unveiled the new route during a meeting with the Mayor of San Francisco, Gavin Newsom, as part of an official St Patrick's Day visit to the USA.

"Ireland has strongly supported the efforts of the EU and the US to conclude an Open Skies agreement that would open access to markets and maximise benefits on both sides of the Atlantic," said Minister Cullen.

"The proposed agreement is a good deal for Europe and represents the best possible opportunity at this time to reach a deal following several years of negotiations at EU/US level."

Transport ministers will meet in Brussels next week to vote on the draft agreement which aims to liberalise the aviation market across the Atlantic. The agreement will have significant economic benefits for both Europe and the US, and the San Francisco Bay area in which 11% of the population is of Irish descent.

"The Bay area market potential for Ireland is extraordinary," said Mayor Newsom. "In addition to the Irish heritage of many San Franciscans, we are one of the nation's top tourist destinations and also home to an extremely well-travelled, high demographic community.

"In finance, services and the high-tech industries, our commercial links with Irish industry are strong and growing."

Although Aer Lingus currently serves four cities in the USA, Boston, New York, Chicago and Los Angeles, the airline has not been able to fly to other US cities because of a current agreement with the US that restricts accessible US destinations.

Mr Cullen said the benefits of open skies for Ireland are even greater in terms of increased tourism and economic activity.

"The prospect of unrestricted air access between Ireland and San Francisco is long overdue and a direct air link between Ireland and San Francisco would be fitting given our already well established common interests," he added.

[akerosid]

Quote:

"Maxalt ... unfortunetly ... the omens for the Irish economy being what they are right now, you may be bang on the mark!

Lets hope things go well for EI in the near future and the two new 330's DUO & DUZ don't herald the same times as the last great "expansion" with CAL and CAM (the two 763's in the early 90's).

-----------------------------------

I have to say, with all due respect, that I'm with EI-RB on this one. Sure, there are clouds on the horizon and there are concerns about various issues, but for a start, the situation now is very different from that in the early 1990s. For one thing, EI acquired these two 767s on the expectation - which proved wrong - that the govt would have the interest and vision to allow direct flights; they were wrong, but EI could have used these aircraft a lot better. I've always thought, for what it's worth, that one of the worst decisions EI has ever made was leaving these aircraft idle, out on the runway, for months on end; they could have worked to BOS and/or ORD.

That's yesterday. Today is different and tomorrow, well, that's going to be GOOD. It now looks likely that the Brits will NOT veto Open Skies, which means that the door is open. Sure EI will face new competition, but its t/a costs are among the lowest in the industry. With a decent fleet, good service and a good home base (well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad :ugh: ), I think EI can make it work. I think that there is VERY good reason to be optimistic about EI's future, despite the various clouds, threats and challenges which will always be there.

Positive thinking, best foot forward; for years, EI has been held back by an insane, politically driven, suicidally irresponsible regulation which failed in its main aim and robbed us of immense potential. From tomorrow, that's history. Time to look forward with optimism. There'll be bad times, there'll be setbacks, but the overall picture looks very good and I think EI is up to the challenge.

[Just a spotter]

All for the positive thinking guys ... and I wish EI (and Ireland inc) all the very best in the coming months/years (my business depends on it just as much as everyone elses livelyhoods!) :ok:

As for San Fran ... does anyone know if it's actually into SFO or are EI doing a Ryanair on it and opting for "San Francisco(San Jose)" ... not that SJC would be a problem, just looking for clarification.

JAS

[Bearcat]

Akerosid...I recall the 767s were got in haste from ILFC who absolutely raped AL on the leases....bent them over backwards. When the LAX op feel flat they were so desperate they leased an aircraft (cant remeber if it was both of them)to Air Aruba who had kicked on leases to Britannia and Air NZ. AL gave away the aircraft to Air Aruba and shouldered Air NZ out with their 762. Air Aruba then defaulted on the lease to AL. The 767 lease was a disaster. I wonder are these 767s still flying? They looked good in the old AL colour scheme.
EI-DUZ ...what a pathetic reg
22nd is D Day re open skies...I expect Akerosid to being doing cartwheels, like us all. A momentous juncture that has been hanging over us all especially in Ireland where the leviatian of the Shannon stop over fades into distant memories....competiton begins....and the big benificiary? the fare paying punter.

[akerosid]

Indeed, Akerosid is waiting with baited breath, champagne on ice and two severe looking Ukrainians with baseball bats, standing behind the British minister in case he makes the wrong decision (gentle persuasion, I call it ;) ).

It's been a long old battle; we should have been here years ago, but we're nearly there, lining up, flap 3, TOGA power and waiting for brake release ...

Incidentally, does anyone know why EI ordered its new A330-300 as a -301, which is the baseline A330-300; the -200 is a -203, which is fine, but I'm just curious as to the -300; I thought they would have gone for a higher gross weight model, particularly with their need for longer reach.

As for San Francisco, it is actually SFO, rather than SJC.

[Just a spotter]

I wonder are these 767s still flying? They looked good in the old AL colour scheme.

Bearcat, funny you should ask, having mentioned AL & AM, I went checking on Airliners.net ...
EI-CAL as she was

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1001988/M/

Based on cn;

This is AL today ...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1165790/M/

EI-CAM as she was

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0555825/M/

and this would appear to be AM today

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1181787/M/

Can't remember back to whether both were painted fully in "White Shamrock" livery, but do seem to recall seeing an all white AM left loitering aound DUB for a good while.

JAS

[akerosid]

OK folks, less than twelve hours to go. Depending on which reports you believe, the vote will be at lunchtime or this afternoon (I had thought it might run into tomorrow). The Brits are still pushing a hard bargain and looking for two key concessions; the second of these is likely to cause friction, particularly as it's something only the UK wants: that the whole O/S deal will fail in 2010, unless the US agrees to open its domestic market.

Anyway, let's hope a deal can be done, but if it is done with this proviso, it might fail at US Congressional level. Hopefully, some kind of formula can be found which will pacify the British, but will avoid this danger.

EI is expected to announce two more US cities (in addition to SFO) - and these are expected to be MCO and IAD. If the deal fails today, Plan B is that the govt seeks a deal with the US and the Taoiseach discussed this with GB last week.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=35&si=1797699&issue_id=15392

Positive thinking folks; we're going to be celebrating later! The end of the Shannon stopover and all this 50/50 nonsense is at hand .... :ok:

[akerosid]

Well folks, my Ukrainian friends didn't need to use their baseball bats at all! The UK has agreed to the deal and it has been approved unanimously by all 27 EU member states. The precise details have still to be confirmed - there are some questions over when the deal will actually take effect (the delay for LHR access applies only to LHR and that will become effective in March 2008; everyone else, including EI, will get increased access from October.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6477969.stm

If you'll pardon a little celebration - I won't even attempt the cartwheels Bearcat suggested (it's not a pretty sight, believe me), but perhaps a little ode, by Mr. Beethoven ...

Joy! Joy!
Joy, thou glorious spark of heaven,
Daughter of Elysium,
We approach fire-drunk,
Heavenly One, your shrine.
Your magic reunites
What custom sternly divides;
All people become brothers

Where your gentle wing alights.
Whoever succeeds in the great attempt
To be a friend of a friend,
Whoever has won a lovely woman,
Let him add his jubilation!
Yes, whoever calls even one soul
His own on the earth's globe!
And who never has, let him steal,
Weeping, away from this group.
All creatures drink joy
At the breasts of nature;
All the good, all the evil
Follow her roses' trail.
Kisses gave she us, and wine,
A friend, proven unto death;
Pleasure was to the worm granted,
And the cherub stands before God.
Glad, as his suns fly
Through the Heavens' glorious plan,
Run, brothers, your race,
Joyful, as a hero to victory.
Be embraced, you millions!
This kiss for the whole world!
Brothers, beyond the star-canopy
Must a loving Father dwell.
Do you bow down, you millions?
Do you sense the Creator, world?
Seek Him beyond the star-canopy!
Beyond the stars must He dwell.
Finale repeats the words:
Be embraced, ye millions!
This kiss for the whole world!
Brothers, beyond the star-canopy
Must a loving Father dwell.
Be embraced,
This kiss for the whole world!
Joy, beautiful spark of the gods,
Daughter of Elysium,
Joy, beautiful spark of the gods

SHAMROCK IS ROLLING!

[Tom the Tenor]

Well done to you, akerosid, you fought the good fight and always kept the faith on this one for a long, long time. A day for you to take a bow sure enough. Aer Lingus and Dublin Airport will forge ahead with many new routes to America.

Let us hope that Cork Airport can also put her name on the North Atlantic gateway map in a modest but equal way. It will be some achievement if she does because it will not be easy. It will mean a change of mindset in the Cork area and a lot of damage has been done.

However, it is a a day to celebrate and we must have hope and to be generally positive for the future of long haul travel from Ireland to North America.

[DrKev]

Aer Lingus confirms new routes, San Francisco, Orlando, and Washington.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0322/air.html

[akerosid]

There was a bit of concern when the deal was announced initially, in that it was supposed to be starting from next March; however, whatever way it has happened, EI has the right to start its new routes from October (indeed, if it wanted, it could do so today.) So, terrific news.

Furthermore, the phased removal of the stopover seems to be much shortened, in that although 3:1 takes effect immediately, as far as I can see, we will have full Open Skies from next March!

[EI-BED]

Ireland was the only country to reach an interim agreement with the US in November 2005, the agreement states once an agreement between the EU and US is agreed, Irish Airlines will have access to three additional destinations, Aer Lingus have selected IAD, SFO and MCO, these three destinations can commence immediately. Irish airlines will have access to the full American market from 30 March 2008.

As per this agreement, the Shannon stop over will operate on a 1:3 basis with immediate effect and from April 2008 the stop over is no more.

[airbourne]

Am I the only one disgusted at the way Virgin Atlantic are carrying on? Back in 1984 when Virgin was a one aircraft company flying out of Gatwick they battled with BA to get into Heathrow. They had endless problems with BA and felt they were bullied by the big boys which led to that dirty tricks campaign and court case. Now just because they are bigger and have a bigger slice of the market they dont want to allow anyone else into the game. Shame on you Virgin, you cant have it all your own way.

So 2 new 330s, together with the older fleet. When are the older models due a D check? Is the EI product enough to attract customers away from BA or VS?

[Just a spotter]

Incidentally, does anyone know why EI ordered its new A330-300 as a -301, which is the baseline A330-300; the -200 is a -203, which is fine, but I'm just curious as to the -300; I thought they would have gone for a higher gross weight model, particularly with their need for longer reach.

I thought the issue with EI's 333's and their MTOW/Range was their vintage and not a function of the design/model. I'm happy to be corrected, but from what I'd heard the older AC were just heavy and later models rolled out by Airbus had their weight reduced. If that's the case then the new -301 should have longer legs despite having the same model number.

Again, happy to stand corrected. :)

JAS

[en2r]

What do people think the chances are of EI pulling all transatlantic services from Shannon from next March? I know they've said before that they will maintain services to New York and Boston at a similiar level to currently but was this not just to ensure that Clare TDs didn't oppose the deal? Thay have clearly said the Shannon stopover will be phased out by next March but its hard to see there being enough demand from Shannon to support daily flights to New York and Boston. I've heard that a significant proportion of passengers transitting through Shannon are actually going to Dublin. Shannon hasn't got a great catchment area, just look at how Ryanair have to virtually give away nearly all seats just to fill the planes. I live in Cork and most people that I know who are travelling to the US fly from Cork to Dublin or Heathrow before getting a connecting flight, so I doubt if the Cork catchment area will help much. What do people think of the chances of EI doing a deal with RE to operate SNN-Dublin as a codeshare and use this as a feeder service onto their transatlantic network similiar to the way BA uses Heathrow? Operating increased frequencied from Dublin would undoubtedly be far more profitable than operating from Shannon

[ryan2000]

Heard that EI conducted a survey of passengers from the Cork Region asking if they would be prepared to travel to Dublin to fly to Boston. We live in changing times. The next few weeks and months will tell a lot.

[cesare]

When will go on sale new flights DUB-SFO?

[akerosid]

I would expect to see them on the EI booking engine within the next 2 weeks; keep an eye here - I'm sure the schedules will be on the EI thread.

[akerosid]

I am interested to see how flights to SFO will affect LAX and also, how (if it turns out that way) the arrival of UAL onto the DUB-ORD route will affect EI. Aer Lingus still has low costs, BUT both the US majors have major hubs at ORD. As for DXB, I can see it gradually increasing. The change in timings has been very successful, with LFs now in the 80%+ range.

As for SNN, EI has promised in the past to remain committed to SNN and there is a clear demand, particularly during the Summer. During the Winter, I can see frequencies dropping a bit, but it would be politically embarrassing for the govt if they did cut back and I am sure that despite open skies, pressure will be applied for them to keep SNN flights going.

[Half-Day.Henry]

DM will announce:

London as Aer Lingus' 1st overseas base.

787s order is expected in April.:D :D :D

[jamaze]

14 787-900's to be ordered!!

:D ;)

[akerosid]

Delighted about the 787s ... but London?

As a Japanese admiral said after Pearl Harbour: "We have only awakened a sleeping giant" (or something like that!) ...

[Bearcat]

Now hold on folks....the 787 rumour has being doing the rounds for weeks, actually months...until I see it in print officially I'll believe it.
Re the London base, where are you getting sources from? AL fought long and hard to get a labour court ruling to pay at the local rates at new bases. Well London wont be too cheap here but I wont discount the rumour. 3 787s out of LHR would be interesting. I still reckon they want a east european base too.
Anyway roll on the good times and as I always say, the fare paying punter will now have real choice.

From todays Business post

The Inquisitor - Aer Lingus was a bargain

25 March 2007 By Richard Curran
The bargain-basement price at which the government sold off Aer Lingus last year is looking ever cheaper. Shares in the former state airline hit a new high last week, touching €3.25 on Thursday.

That was a full €1.05 over the flotation price. At last Thursday’s price, the airline was valued at €1.7 billion compared to a flotation value of €1.1 billion. We all knew it would be sold off at a reasonably low price. Then Michael O’Leary opened up people’s eyes to just how cheaply the airline had been brought to market.

Any Ryanair takeover premium that had been in the share price is gone, given that no realistic bid is now on the horizon. So its current value is very real, and is based on the airline’s performance and outlook. Ironically, the company hasn’t done anything spectacular since its IPO.





Its full-year results were generally in line with expectations and at best mixed given the divergence in performance between the underperforming transatlantic routes and the shorter continental European routes, which are performing well. We couldn’t seriously have expected any major reinvention of the airline, given the strong position of the unions and the fact that the state is still the biggest shareholder on the register.

Last week’s share-price spike was on the back of the agreement of the new US/EU open skies deal. That was always on the horizon in the run-up to the flotation, although it was finally concluded a little more quickly than many had expected. The open skies deal allowed Aer Lingus to press ahead with the announcement of three new routes to the US, to San Francisco, Orlando and Washington.

Given that it has been losing market share on transatlantic traffic, an expansion of the services will give it more options. But it isn’t an instant recipe for profit growth. Aer Lingus will have to work hard to develop these new routes into profitable revenue streams. Either way, there has been no transformation at Aer Lingus, which has added €600 million to the value of the company since its flotation.

Admittedly, the overall Irish stock market is well up on last September when the airline was privatised. Ryanair, Denis O’Brien, institutional investors and the pilots are all showing a paper profit on their Aer Lingus investments. The taxpayer, however, is not

[Just a spotter]

The Sunday Business Show on Today FM raido this morning said EI would anounce a US base ... most likely East Coast but a slight chance of West. Also said that the Government has indicated it will veto the use of any LHR slots for flights not serving Ireland (helpful of them!).

Seems we're in the middle of a storm of rumour!

As a listed company won't they have to inform the Irish Stock Exchange of any aircraft orders or base anouncements before they're placed?

JAS

[ryan2000]

A change in the Canadian Irish bilateral would surely bring Montreal or Toronto Dublin into the reckoning.

The former was served by EI in the 1970's but the notorious Shannon Stopover made it unviable.

In 2004, EI senior executives said that ORK-JFK would be one of the routes on the wish list in an open skies situation. Whether the attitude of the present leadership to the route is as positve remains to be seen.

There is a loophole in the current bilateral which allows EI operate the route and presumably avail of incentives and marketing support. This was discovered in 2004 when Aer Arann were seriously considering launching flights ORK-JFK and NOC-JFK with a 757.

[840]

I thought Aer Lingus wouldn't let their A330s into Cork because of issues with turning them on the runway.

[Bearcat]

your right 840....330s cant operate currently into ORK due turning circle requirements. That can change with the clour of money.

[840]

One small point about Heathrow and the dispute over paying local rates.

Although, it would seem like a pointless case because there would be little difference between local rates in Heathrow and Dublin, it probably had to be sorted, so that a precedent wouldn't be set.

[840]

Do they not have three aircraft overnighting there anyway?

If you use 2 or 3 London-based aircraft to serve existing UK-Ireland routes, you save on keeping crews in hotels and as these would be new aircraft, you could free up capacity for new routes from the Cork and Dublin based aircraft.

Talking of which, what is the situation with establishing a pilot base in Cork. Even if they've negotiated a good rate with local hotels, it must be costing 400K+ p.a. to pay for the hotels, transfers etc.

[Just a spotter]

With regard to Heathrow slots ... over on the Virgin thread this was posted;

bmi is the second largest slot holder at LHR, by a long way, holding more than 1 in 10 slots at the airport. Virgin is 6th largest:
Out of 468,120 (in 2005):

1st BA 192,378
2nd BD 54,500
3rd LH 20,978
4th EI 14,841
5th SK 14,049
6th VS 12,571

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249785&page=4

I'd guess that most major airlines would like to operate a hub of some fashion from LHR, whether EI can is another matter, plus they'd have to convince 2 share holder with almost 50% of the company between them who I'd assume are "hostile" to the idea (Irish Government and Ryanair).

JAS

[Count von Altibar]

A cork base is long overdue in my opinion. Also, I think EI should concentrate on dominating their own backyard before spreading out elsewhere. Longhaul expansion from Ireland is the way to go in my opinion.

[Charlie Roy]

Aerlingus said before that their new base outside of Ireland would connect that base to other European cities. In that respect I think a Heathrow base is a crap idea.

Most of the European cities that are on Aerlingus's routemap already have a Heathrow service. And those that don't have some form of London service.

I prefer the idea of Aer Lingus setting up a base somewhere and mainly introducing non-existing routes. Only setting up a base to compete with carriers on existing routes isn't very profitable (particularly in the short term).

Anyway, this LHR base story is totally not creditable, and not backed up by any evidence.

[EI-BUD]

Aer Lingus is planning expansion , and a new base(s). So, as they would need to pay an absolute fortune for extra slots at LHR to expand services, I just couldnt see it happening.

I wouldnt be surprised if Aer Lingus choose a secondary airport with a very low cost base... What does anyone think about that?

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

I think EI should set up at STN for transatlantic flights,
reason !
LHR will have a load of airlines flying to the US and most of them
will be less than half full. there are loads of people who HAVE to travel
via LHR who live north of London who would use any airline as long as
they didnt have to travel on the M25, STN or LTN would be very busy as they only have all business class airlines to to US.

[Just a spotter]

EI set up a TA base from STN ... now why would they do that ... after all, it's only their second largest share holder who runs a shorthaul hub out of that airport ......

JAS

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

So are you saying thats a + or - reason ?
I would say it was a plus unless FR are planning TA out of STN,
just think of all the feeder pax from FR, It would work well for both
EI and FR.

[Charlie Roy]

Unison.ie reports:

THE Aer Lingus board considered mounting a takeover of BMI earlier this year.
The board was looking at fall-back positions in the event the Open Skies deal, which was concluded last week, did not go ahead.


The airline also ran the rule over a number of other European low-cost carriers, including Flybe.


It is understood that the previous Aer Lingus management, led by Willie Walsh, the current British Airways chief executive, also harboured plans to mount a bid for BMI, once it had restructured Aer Lingus. Discussion with BMI did take place, but it is understood they centred on the possibility of Aer Lingus acquiring a number of long-haul aircraft from BMI.

[chrism20]

How long does the arrangement between BMI & MME regarding jet services to London last for?

Could MME be a possible new base for EI? I know GSM have stepped in and started services but there is plenty of expansion possible there even with GSM already there.



Thread continued here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269645 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269645)